ditka...mike ditka
Footballguy
Haha, my fault. I did. Not sure what he will be getting me but its his choice of a bottle around $200.
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Ran a 10k - Official Thread (10 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ned
- Start date
Well that makes it all worthwhile. Nicely done! You were FLYING on the bike, especially clipless. And 8:30/mile at the end of all that on a bum wheel is still impressive. Congrats all the way around!
Ned
Footballguy
One funny story during my run. I'm running sidewalks in a pretty busy Atlanta area- lots of folks running/walking and biking. I haven't been gone long and I get to an intersection and having to wait at the light - as I get to cross there's a bike coming the opposite way stopped at the red light. He's in the lane with a car behind him and I'm kind of paying attention but not really - as I get to the other side the light changes but the biker doesn't move - I see him looking around on the ground for something. The car behind him is getting angry so I decide to be a Good Samaritan and head over and yell "did you drop something?" I can now see that is an older guy, actually pretty old for a biker ok a main road. He says "yeah, it's dental piece". I look down and the dude dropped his partial denture out on to the ground.
1
that's pretty damn close to running into a horse while running (actual story here in this thread).
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Ned
Footballguy
Pain and swelling are way down and I can walk close to normal. I'm not sure what to think at this point, but Ortho appt is tomorrow at 1:30. I rarely say this, but I'm anxious to see the doctor to understand WTH is going on. The pain ebbs/flows - I'll either feel this annoying/uncomfortable ache under the knee cap or a pinching sensation at the base/bottom of the knee.
Still icing/elevating when I'm off my feet - ice helps a lot with the pain. I stopped the hydrocodone on Monday - the nauseous/dizziness sucked more than the pain. Not sure how folks can get hooked on that crap.
ChiefD
Footballguy
Last week's training report:
Ran on Tuesday. Can't remember how far.
On Wednesday, came home from work. Loaded up my car with all my fishing gear. Thought about running. Didn't. Went to bed at 8:30 for my drive to Wisconsin.
Thursday: woke up at 2:00 AM and hit the road at 3:00 for my drive to Wisconsin. Pulled into town around 12:15, and was on the river by 1:30. Drank about 6 beers, caught a few fish, and ate some BBQ ribs I brought up from KC.
Friday: woke up at 6:00 AM for a full day of fishing. Was on the river by about 8:45. About 9:00, I caught a 13" sucker, which we promptly put on a muskie rig for bait. About 9:45 I caught this beauty. 42" muskie. Cracked my first Bud about 11:00, and spent the rest of the day basking in the muskie glow. We anchored in about 10 different pools and had a GREAT day of fishing. Caught 16 legal smallmouth, with the biggest being this 19 incher. My uncle also caught a 26" walleye, which was the beauty of the day. Rare to catch one that big on this stretch of river. Weather was beautiful - about 72 degrees and sunny all day. Got off the river about 8:30 PM, drank a few beers, and then my brother and nephew showed up to fish on Saturday.
Saturday: cool and rainy all day. Was bout 60 degrees, and we were in our rain gear all day. I did not catch anything but a buzz this day. I used up all my fishing credit from the fishing gods the day before. Fishing was rough, as the water temp dropped 6 degrees overnight. My uncle caught a nice 21" walleye, and my brother and nephew caught about 15 fish. The biggest was a 17" smallie, with a few smaller walleye and smallies mixed in. A good day though, as I got to fish with my brother and nephew. Got home, drank some beers and had a great steak dinner.
In summary, I ate like a king, drank some Bud's with family, and had a few days of great fishing and relaxation without the kids and wife around. I got to be a regular guy for a few days. No running, but that's ok. A nice recharge of the batteries.
Ran on Tuesday. Can't remember how far.
On Wednesday, came home from work. Loaded up my car with all my fishing gear. Thought about running. Didn't. Went to bed at 8:30 for my drive to Wisconsin.
Thursday: woke up at 2:00 AM and hit the road at 3:00 for my drive to Wisconsin. Pulled into town around 12:15, and was on the river by 1:30. Drank about 6 beers, caught a few fish, and ate some BBQ ribs I brought up from KC.
Friday: woke up at 6:00 AM for a full day of fishing. Was on the river by about 8:45. About 9:00, I caught a 13" sucker, which we promptly put on a muskie rig for bait. About 9:45 I caught this beauty. 42" muskie. Cracked my first Bud about 11:00, and spent the rest of the day basking in the muskie glow. We anchored in about 10 different pools and had a GREAT day of fishing. Caught 16 legal smallmouth, with the biggest being this 19 incher. My uncle also caught a 26" walleye, which was the beauty of the day. Rare to catch one that big on this stretch of river. Weather was beautiful - about 72 degrees and sunny all day. Got off the river about 8:30 PM, drank a few beers, and then my brother and nephew showed up to fish on Saturday.
Saturday: cool and rainy all day. Was bout 60 degrees, and we were in our rain gear all day. I did not catch anything but a buzz this day. I used up all my fishing credit from the fishing gods the day before. Fishing was rough, as the water temp dropped 6 degrees overnight. My uncle caught a nice 21" walleye, and my brother and nephew caught about 15 fish. The biggest was a 17" smallie, with a few smaller walleye and smallies mixed in. A good day though, as I got to fish with my brother and nephew. Got home, drank some beers and had a great steak dinner.
In summary, I ate like a king, drank some Bud's with family, and had a few days of great fishing and relaxation without the kids and wife around. I got to be a regular guy for a few days. No running, but that's ok. A nice recharge of the batteries.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
Hang 10
Footballguy
I gotta admit I was a bit taken aback with the reaction I got on Friday when I brought up my coach's thoughts on pace over HR. Not surprised per se, since most you guys are HR junkies but still I wasn't quite ready for that. So this caused me to do some more research on the subject and it seemed to me that the majority of research said it was better to train based on pace ranges than heart rate zones. That's not to say that HR zones don't work because they have worked for me in the past but it certainly isn't the only way to go. But the main takeaways from what I read were:
1. HR is variable based on a lot of factors other than effort.
2. Your heart is only one muscle (an important one I'll give you that) out of all the muscles you use to run. To train almost exclusively based on one muscle could lead to less development of your overall running fitness.
3. Learning how to pace without all the tech is a good thing.
4. I do not and will not race based on HR.
Finally, I plugged my race times in almost every training calculator I could find and a 7:40 training pace pretty damn close to the consensus. I struggled with pacing over the weekend but dialed it in a bit better this morning. Ran 6.1 @ 7:39(153) 74% of my max. So at the end of the day, unless the weather is garbage, 7:40ish is probably the right pace for my HR zones & pace range.
Anyway, I didn't write this out to be argumentative, just to let you guys (who I respect) there's actual thought put into this plan.
1. HR is variable based on a lot of factors other than effort.
2. Your heart is only one muscle (an important one I'll give you that) out of all the muscles you use to run. To train almost exclusively based on one muscle could lead to less development of your overall running fitness.
3. Learning how to pace without all the tech is a good thing.
4. I do not and will not race based on HR.
Finally, I plugged my race times in almost every training calculator I could find and a 7:40 training pace pretty damn close to the consensus. I struggled with pacing over the weekend but dialed it in a bit better this morning. Ran 6.1 @ 7:39(153) 74% of my max. So at the end of the day, unless the weather is garbage, 7:40ish is probably the right pace for my HR zones & pace range.
Anyway, I didn't write this out to be argumentative, just to let you guys (who I respect) there's actual thought put into this plan.
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bushdocda
Footballguy
My 2 cents - I find HR training to be very helpful in keeping me in line and relatively healthy as a runner with a low training age that would be susceptible to injury/overuse .
More experienced runners with a deep base are going to have much more instinctive and physical wherewithal to train by pace without increased injury risk.
Keep up the great work!
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
@Hang 10 I guess one could say that I usually train by pace compared to heart rate. For typical runs, my HR is usually higher than it "should" be in the beginning of training but probably lower than it should be near the end when I'm nearing race shape. My average pace quickens a little as I get fitter but not substantially.
One thing I don't like, though, is to feel forced into a pace unless it's during a tempo or MP run. I usually pick my pace in a very unscientific way: I settle into where it seems a little too taxing to run faster but annoying to run slower. Whatever that pace and HR is varies from day to day due to many factors many of which I'm probably unaware of. Anyway, it seems to make training feel more manageable for me to do this. I also like to pretend my body is smarter than my mind and I should just go with it. That may not be the best way to train but it has worked out OK in the past. I also share your concerns about strict HR training for many of the reasons you mention.
I don't think you'll be worse off by running those < 7:40s as long as your body seems to adapt and you don't end up feeling miserable. I think you should be able to handle it considering your lowish volume and that you're not doing difficult runs like tempos and MP stuff. Of course, I think you'd be better off with higher volume and doing those harder types of runs and not worrying about < 7:40s on most days, but I think you know that too. I know your coach is viewing your training in the context of two marathons and that stuff will be added for the second one. I guess I can buy into that but I think you might need to dial down your expectations for this first one.
One thing I don't like, though, is to feel forced into a pace unless it's during a tempo or MP run. I usually pick my pace in a very unscientific way: I settle into where it seems a little too taxing to run faster but annoying to run slower. Whatever that pace and HR is varies from day to day due to many factors many of which I'm probably unaware of. Anyway, it seems to make training feel more manageable for me to do this. I also like to pretend my body is smarter than my mind and I should just go with it. That may not be the best way to train but it has worked out OK in the past. I also share your concerns about strict HR training for many of the reasons you mention.
I don't think you'll be worse off by running those < 7:40s as long as your body seems to adapt and you don't end up feeling miserable. I think you should be able to handle it considering your lowish volume and that you're not doing difficult runs like tempos and MP stuff. Of course, I think you'd be better off with higher volume and doing those harder types of runs and not worrying about < 7:40s on most days, but I think you know that too. I know your coach is viewing your training in the context of two marathons and that stuff will be added for the second one. I guess I can buy into that but I think you might need to dial down your expectations for this first one.
MAC_32
Footballguy
I think you know I ride the fence on this subject and fall almost exclusively into bullet point #3 in large part because of #'s 1 and 2. I always try to be aware of my effort levels, but I don't even own a HRM. I was just mostly taken aback by the recommended pace. That's what seems too fast to me, given your past issues staying healthy. I think 7"40 may be the long game, but short term? Don't think the juice is worth the squeeze.
SteelCurtain
Footballguy
Ned
Footballguy
It broke my heart to read it, but I support his quest to keep improving.
Brony
Footballguy
Related6.2 mile run - 53:14 (1133 out of 3039) - what a disappointment this was. 8:34 a mile, I wanted to be under 7:30 but I just couldnt get my foot to loosen up. Each stride was painful, and on top of it my stomach wasnt feeling right, which was weird since at no time during training nor during any previous run ive done did it hurt. The only thing I could think of was at the race expo a guy recommended a powder to put in my water bottle on the bike. Guy was a big time iron man competition and swore by it. So I did it. My buddy also did and felt the same stomach cramps and never had them before either. Probably shouldn't have tried something for the first time on race day. Before training I said that running would be my best by far, but in this race it was by far my worst. Super frustrating. I ended up walking at least a mile between all the times I had to walk. This will bother me until I crush this time next year
ditka...mike ditka
Footballguy
Hang 10
Footballguy
@Juxtatarot Yeah, I thought you were more of a pace guy. And you're right, it's not like I don't know that I'm missing volume and quality most people get during training but I am adding some volume and have been for the past 2 months. Or course it's only a couple miles a week but again, being cautious. As far as a goal goes, what should my expectations be? I can't imagine not going in with idea that I can PR. And I am going to get some MP runs in here eventually, so I'll have a better idea what's realistic. I'm not going to go into the race without some data to support my MP.
@MAC_32 I hear you but what about 7:40 sounds too fast? Since when has 7:40 ever been considered fast? The last 7 days I've averaged 7:42 @ 153(74% of my max). Before I had the talk with my coach I was running mostly 7:50ish. Was that too fast?
The data says 7:40 is a decent training pace but if it's not, where's the data that says it's too fast?
@Ned Thanks, GB.
I guess the bottom line is that I hired a coach to make me a better runner and I'm going do my best to be coachable. I'm going to trust the plan. I've got too. If major fatigue starts setting in because I'm running too fast, it will be his job to adjust my plan. That's what he's there for.
@MAC_32 I hear you but what about 7:40 sounds too fast? Since when has 7:40 ever been considered fast? The last 7 days I've averaged 7:42 @ 153(74% of my max). Before I had the talk with my coach I was running mostly 7:50ish. Was that too fast?
The data says 7:40 is a decent training pace but if it's not, where's the data that says it's too fast?
@Ned
Thanks, GB. I guess the bottom line is that I hired a coach to make me a better runner and I'm going do my best to be coachable. I'm going to trust the plan. I've got too. If major fatigue starts setting in because I'm running too fast, it will be his job to adjust my plan. That's what he's there for.
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mr. furley
Footballguy
Hang 10
Footballguy
mr. furley
Footballguy
Sorry, I didn't mean for that to come off as arrogant.
not at allthe world needs milkers, too.
if i ever ran a 7:40 mile it would be because @gruecd was pushing me down the road on a bar stool.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Not 2:58!
But I'd agree that a PR shouldn't be out of the question assuming training continues to go well. I'm glad you'll be getting in some MP runs.
Hang 10
Footballguy
Last year I did my last MP workout and ran 18 with 14 MP and I averaged 6:53. I know it's early but I'm over 20 seconds faster a mile at the same HR this time last year. Now I don't think that means I'm 20 seconds faster a mile during a marathon but I believe it says that I'm going to be in better shape than last year. And it says I'm going to be in WAY better shape than 2 years ago when I ran 7:10 a mile. Hell, I just did 6 miles yesterday @ 7:11(166) with temps in the mid 70s.Not 2:58!
But I'd agree that a PR shouldn't be out of the question assuming training continues to go well. I'm glad you'll be getting in some MP runs.
So, yeah, I've training with the idea that I'm going sub 3 hours. I believe I can and will. Is that to say that I won't change my mind about that? I hope not. One thing I definitely won't do is run stupid on race day because I had a goal in August.
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JShare87
Footballguy
Hang 10
Footballguy
Trying to figure out a nice way to say this...
I don't think the situations are remotely comparable.
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Ned
Footballguy
When he told you he didn't want to see any more 8's, what was his reasoning behind it?
Hang 10
Footballguy
He's using https://www.trainingpeaks.com/ to track my training. I'm not sure if it's a TP thing or just a personal preference of his he wants training in the middle of the "moderate aerobic pace zone". All my zones are based on my threshold pace with is currently 6:27 apparently. So I think the main catalyst of the talk about pace was that he updated my threshold based on my last 5K and he noticed that I was spending like 90% of my time in the low aerobic zone.
When he told you he didn't want to see any more 8's, what was his reasoning behind it?
So basically I'd run 8:00 for most my run and then pick it for the last couple and I'd average 7:50 or so. He just wants me to spend more time being steady at 7:40. IDK how much difference it will make honestly but what do I know.
Though, I will say that the previous 2 weeks were the first time I had averaged a HR <150. So you could legitimately say that I was sandbagging compared to how I normally run.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
I didn't realize that. At similar points in your training? If so, that's fantastic. What do you think accounts for this?
pbm107
Footballguy
I hope I am wrong but I don't like your chances of running a sub 3 this cycle. You just don't have the training volume to get there and you're 11 weeks out. Compare your training from this August to what Juxt and I did in August of 2015.
I don't thing one's training pace is all that important for the marathon, it mostly about the mileage. For me the easiest way to get there is to run at a comfortable pace. I usually don't use my HR to dictate my pace I run mostly by feel and review the HR data to evaluate my fitness. Some people are more comfortable running faster and if 7:40 is your most comfortable pace then go for it. Be careful with the running calculators and recommended training paces, usually the ranges are so wide we could convince ourselves to run at Steve's training paces.
MAC_32
Footballguy
It's really just the past injuries. I liked what your coach said about focusing on getting you through this cycle healthy then look to attack the next one, but I am struggling connecting that approach to this plan. I think there's a very strong chance you're capable of training paces faster than 7:40. Eventually. That said, I tend to be admittedly conservative, methodical, and borderline overly cautious when it comes to my training planning. You gotta do what you think is best for you though. I'm just wary this plan may have you going too fast too far too frequently and too soon and could just leave you where you were before.Hang 10 said:
JShare87
Footballguy
A nice way to say what? That I am no where close to the runner you are? You can say it. I don't get upset or let it ruin my day when others are better than me. All I was saying is I came in here and tried to argue why I could run a certain time based on my training. You are doing the exact same thing. It's a fairly comparable situation. I am not talking about running ability, I understand you are far superior than me.Hang 10 said:
Hang 10
Footballguy
No, its not because i think im better or more talented than you. We're not comparable because I didn't just start racing 5 months ago. Also, I don't even know how we got on the subject of what my race goal is. I never asked if anyone thought it was realistic because I don't give a ####.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Interesting discussion here fellas. When did we start showing hurt feelings?
Hang 10 - I get what you're saying about HR vs pace, especially when your coach assesses and provides a plan. Late this past spring MAF was starting to get tough on my legs, muscular endurance wise. So taking a break from it, switching things up a bit makes sense. But for those of us without coaches and with experience, training for events over a 5k, I'd think running on perceived effort works better than a set pace. Maybe I'm wrong.
Hang 10 - I get what you're saying about HR vs pace, especially when your coach assesses and provides a plan. Late this past spring MAF was starting to get tough on my legs, muscular endurance wise. So taking a break from it, switching things up a bit makes sense. But for those of us without coaches and with experience, training for events over a 5k, I'd think running on perceived effort works better than a set pace. Maybe I'm wrong.
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tri-man 47
Footballguy
Injuries, especially chronic injuries, suck.Brony said:
gruecd
Footballguy
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
pbm107
Footballguy
Yeah on work travel, will try to get in a run tonight. This will end up being a cutback week with the plan to start getting serious next week. Thanks for asking.
mr. furley
Footballguy
ran through a college campus last night
when did colleges start letting 13 year olds in?
when did colleges start letting 13 year olds in?
gianmarco
Footballguy
Alright, back for some newbish questions.
First of all, I went back and read some of my first posts in here after some of the recent discussions. It's only been a bit over a month but man, what an idiot! I wrote some stupid stuff. So thanks for helping me along in the beginning.
I've been just running more like you guys have said and it seems to be working. Runs are getting easier and more enjoyable. I've also tried to slow down on some to just enjoy, but inevitably I can't keep it up, so here's my questions:
1) When you go run, do you always have a preset distance or plan for your run or do you see how things go and take it from there?
2) Yesterday, I started a run and felt great for the first 2 miles which isn't how it usually goes for me. My 3rd mile felt easier and I started picking up the pace. When I started the 4th mile, had to decide whether to just keep doing what I was doing and do more distance or push it even more and see what I could do at that point. I opted for the latter, did about a minute faster pace during the 4th mile and finished with running about as fast as I could for final 1/10th mile. Is that wrong? Should I have just kept the same pace and run for a longer distance? I finished at 3.7 miles, which is still a pretty long distance for me (even though it was much easier this time), but I probably could have gotten to 5+ miles if I kept the slower pace.
3) Along with the above, this is what I keep struggling with. While I run, I hear the paces that Strava gives me every half mile. The feedback is awesome, but often I'll hear a pace and think that I can do better or what happens if I push a bit more and inevitably overdo it. How do I tell myself to turn that off and just keep going or is it ok to do that? It's hard because I get frustrated when I'm on a run and hear a pace that's lower than others that I've done and want to try to match it.
4) Finally, I've signed up for the 5k with my wife in October. Another friend will be joining us as well so I don't know if I'll even have to worry about the 8:30 pace. That said, if I do, does that mean I need to be consistently running at that pace beforehand? A better pace? I have no idea what happens during race day and how close to it I need to get.
First of all, I went back and read some of my first posts in here after some of the recent discussions. It's only been a bit over a month but man, what an idiot! I wrote some stupid stuff. So thanks for helping me along in the beginning.
I've been just running more like you guys have said and it seems to be working. Runs are getting easier and more enjoyable. I've also tried to slow down on some to just enjoy, but inevitably I can't keep it up, so here's my questions:
1) When you go run, do you always have a preset distance or plan for your run or do you see how things go and take it from there?
2) Yesterday, I started a run and felt great for the first 2 miles which isn't how it usually goes for me. My 3rd mile felt easier and I started picking up the pace. When I started the 4th mile, had to decide whether to just keep doing what I was doing and do more distance or push it even more and see what I could do at that point. I opted for the latter, did about a minute faster pace during the 4th mile and finished with running about as fast as I could for final 1/10th mile. Is that wrong? Should I have just kept the same pace and run for a longer distance? I finished at 3.7 miles, which is still a pretty long distance for me (even though it was much easier this time), but I probably could have gotten to 5+ miles if I kept the slower pace.
3) Along with the above, this is what I keep struggling with. While I run, I hear the paces that Strava gives me every half mile. The feedback is awesome, but often I'll hear a pace and think that I can do better or what happens if I push a bit more and inevitably overdo it. How do I tell myself to turn that off and just keep going or is it ok to do that? It's hard because I get frustrated when I'm on a run and hear a pace that's lower than others that I've done and want to try to match it.
4) Finally, I've signed up for the 5k with my wife in October. Another friend will be joining us as well so I don't know if I'll even have to worry about the 8:30 pace. That said, if I do, does that mean I need to be consistently running at that pace beforehand? A better pace? I have no idea what happens during race day and how close to it I need to get.
JShare87
Footballguy
My thoughts for question number 1 are a little bit of both. I try to go by feel and sometimes like to have a predetermined distance. After completing my marathon training, I found that I am becoming more of a predetermined distance guy. I think it suits me, because I won't ever let myself quit before that set distance. On the flip side, if I have no plan and just head out and run, I often cut the run short and get on with the rest of my day. This is why I started a half marathon training plan last week. I like the freedom of not having a set plan, but I am far more disciplined if I have a set plan everyday. To each their own, I think just getting out there and running is a win for all of us. Keep up the good work!
ChiefD
Footballguy
Brony
Footballguy
If you're just getting started running, try not to focus on pace numbers and run by feel. In general, running shouldn't have to feel like a chore (aside from 1st month). Once you've gotten a body of miles in and the body is conditioned to running without feeling sore muscles every time (say after 2 to 4 months), then I'd consider targeting paces if I'm training toward a specific race or busting out a fast run just because I'm feeling it that day.
At that point, the reward from pushing yourself to new limit is the payoff for that work and it still shouldn't feel like a chore, (even if some days are harder to get going than others). If you think that you want to run long term, then don't overanalyze things - just get out there, clear your head and when the body is ready to push faster, it should come naturally without having to consciously say 'today is my 5.3 mile day at 8:05 pace'. My 2 cents.
At that point, the reward from pushing yourself to new limit is the payoff for that work and it still shouldn't feel like a chore, (even if some days are harder to get going than others). If you think that you want to run long term, then don't overanalyze things - just get out there, clear your head and when the body is ready to push faster, it should come naturally without having to consciously say 'today is my 5.3 mile day at 8:05 pace'. My 2 cents.
ChiefD
Footballguy
For me, this is important, especially for a new runner. You've already accomplished the first step, which is getting up and doing it in the first place. Everything feels good and you are feeling better every run, but inevitably this part creeps in.
Some days you just don't want to go. You justify it in your brain that "it's ok if I just skip one day", or "I'll just go tomorrow."
This is the trap that I believe torpedoes a lot of runners, especially new runners. Heck, I STILL do this from time to time.
But you have to fight through that, because if you can just start a run on those days you usually settle in after a mile or so, and then you feel a billion percent better when you are done because you fought through a mental battle and WON.
Those are the best runs.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
I was thinking of something very similar to this. He has been running 4 times a week recently. Perhaps the only difference I'd suggest would be one day of the week devoted to trying to stretch the distance. So, as a general outline of a plan, one day try to run faster than normal without worrying about cutting the distance short. One day focus on running longer but not worrying about speed. The other two days in the middle -- don't be so concerned about distance or speed. These two are just easy runs.
@gianmarco There are all sorts of ideas and plans you can follow. The good thing is that you'll get better by whatever you do as long as you keep running consistently. The case could be made to not focus on pace at all at this point but it's clear that you like to keep testing yourself. That's natural and OK, IMO.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Like Penny from Big Bang Theory, I run until I'm hungry and then stop for a bear claw.
