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Ran a 10k - Official Thread (5 Viewers)

ChiefD said:
So, treadmill vs outdoors on SOS runs:

I've had to do both this winter due to weather, so had a couple of quick questions on what actually is better. 

Treadmill Pro's:

I can regulate the speed better and can maintain that speed throughout the entire segment.

Easier to track pace instead of my watch going all over the place as I go up and down hills when I am outside (my normal route is pretty hilly. hard to find long flat stretches).

Treadmill Con's:

Not a true representation of what I will face on race day.

So my question is: Will I get more out of the workout if I maintain that speed throughout each segment (on a treadmill), or have that speed fluctuate going up and down hills?  

I know the "right" answer is to maintain that speed up and down hills, but for some of the elevations I have around my house my heart rate would literally explode if I try and maintain a 7:15-7:30 pace. Easy to do on the downhills. But that uphill "sprint" I have to do to maintain speed sometimes wipes me out. 

The course I will be running for the race is relatively flat with some long rolling hills, with one large elevation at about mile 8. 

Any thoughts?
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I can tell you right now that @MAC_32 and I disagree on this, but I like the treadmill for my weekly speed workouts.  I just have a hard time hitting my paces when my muscles are cold and I'm wearing multiple layers of clothing.  And while he'll say that it's more about perceived effort, I need the confidence boost of hitting my paces.

For SoS during long runs, I feel like these are the workouts that need to mimic race day, and so I'd still much rather do that outside.  

 
gruecd said:
I can tell you right now that @MAC_32 and I disagree on this, but I like the treadmill for my weekly speed workouts.  I just have a hard time hitting my paces when my muscles are cold and I'm wearing multiple layers of clothing.  And while he'll say that it's more about perceived effort, I need the confidence boost of hitting my paces.

For SoS during long runs, I feel like these are the workouts that need to mimic race day, and so I'd still much rather do that outside.  
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I often don't hit my target paces. I don't think it's important early in a training cycle though. I'm 2-5 so far on MP runs. And that's a massive improvement vs. fall half training. I was 0-fer pace runs until #5 during week 12 of 17. I never really felt comfortable with anything until week 11. But I think that's a good thing. Spend the first 2/3 of the training cycle making yourself uncomfortable with the objective of putting all of the pieces together over the final 1/3.

Sure, I'd like to experience some confidence boosting workouts before mid-late March, but if that doesn't happen there's no reason to worry. If I'm not accomplishing at least some of my goals between then and sometime in April then a re-assessment may be in order, but I don't think there's any point worrying about it before then. Ultimately, April me will benefit more if winter me puts myself through hell. So, instead of focusing on paces right now focus instead on putting myself through hell, knowing if I do that then the spring paces should take care of themselves.

 
ChiefD said:
So, treadmill vs outdoors on SOS runs:

I've had to do both this winter due to weather, so had a couple of quick questions on what actually is better. 

Treadmill Pro's:

I can regulate the speed better and can maintain that speed throughout the entire segment.

Easier to track pace instead of my watch going all over the place as I go up and down hills when I am outside (my normal route is pretty hilly. hard to find long flat stretches).

Treadmill Con's:

Not a true representation of what I will face on race day.

So my question is: Will I get more out of the workout if I maintain that speed throughout each segment (on a treadmill), or have that speed fluctuate going up and down hills?  

I know the "right" answer is to maintain that speed up and down hills, but for some of the elevations I have around my house my heart rate would literally explode if I try and maintain a 7:15-7:30 pace. Easy to do on the downhills. But that uphill "sprint" I have to do to maintain speed sometimes wipes me out. 

The course I will be running for the race is relatively flat with some long rolling hills, with one large elevation at about mile 8. 

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
yes/no - first, when on the road, I'm not constantly looking at my watch during an interval - occasional glance to make sure I'm in the ballpark but that's it. At the end of the interval, if I am basically at the right pace over the entire thing, I'm happy. That said I've always been pretty good at being able to set a pace and maintain that pace, in general - all the way back to high school. As long as I'm physically able to do it, keeping the right general pace over a period of time is just something I have been able to do. A slight variance here and there isn't a problem, IMO. 

I have done both road and treadmill SOS work and you lay it out nicely. Sometimes it's nice to let the treadmill set the pace, and I just concentrate on doing the work. But as @MAC_32 points out often, I think that forcing yourself to do the work/maintain the effort has huge benefits. There's something huge about having to face those late reps when you aren't sure you can do them and having to do it on your own without the crutch of the treadmill, IMO. 

 
fred_1_15301 said:
Yup I’m going to give it a shot.  I’ll try to do my long runs outside on the weekends (only days that I can practically get outside)
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This was my first thought ...use the TM during the week as you work around family time, then try to slip outside for a longer weekend run.  That would work well enough - build up miles during the week on the TM and catch a longer weekend run.  You'll be fine!  Keep us informed on how the training is going.  And ..welcome!

 
ChiefD said:
So my question is: Will I get more out of the workout if I maintain that speed throughout each segment (on a treadmill), or have that speed fluctuate going up and down hills?  

I know the "right" answer is to maintain that speed up and down hills, but for some of the elevations I have around my house my heart rate would literally explode if I try and maintain a 7:15-7:30 pace. Easy to do on the downhills. But that uphill "sprint" I have to do to maintain speed sometimes wipes me out. 

The course I will be running for the race is relatively flat with some long rolling hills, with one large elevation at about mile 8. 

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
With the variability due to the hills, I'd say work off of perceived effort.  Don't get caught trying to stay with a "correct" pace.  On easier days, take the hills at an easy pace.  On SoS days, drive up the hills and recover on the down slopes.

 
MAC_32 said:
I think this is vastly different with someone just starting out - it's one thing to say to a vet to just get the equipment and nut-up. It's a completely different thing with someone venturing to uncharted territory. I think they need to be in their comfort zone to maximize potential to be successful. And there isn't anything comfortable about running in the dark at 5 in the morning.
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:goodposting:

The only thing that I would add is that when I began doing the 5 AM runs when I first started running, I found that I really liked the peacefulness of that time of day.  I 100% agree to be "OK" doing it, but even if you feel a bit uncomfortable about it, they should give it a shot to see if they like it or not.

 
bushdocda said:
Good site with runner stuff and the course, I’m irrationally interested in this.

https://www.atlanta2020trials.com/athletes

On February 29, 2020, the race will be broadcast live on NBC across the country. The broadcast will be live at 12:00 p.m. EST, with coverage concluding at 3:00 p.m.
Click to expand...
I'm with you -- I've been following this and I am going to mark my calendar  :thumbup:

I'm rooting for Everett Hackett

Here is snippet from his interview after barely qualifying

So, yeah, I didn’t know I had it until the final strides. There were two turns at the end, and right before one of the turns, I don’t remember which one, there was a guy on the sideline and he just yelled: 30 seconds left! And I just sprinted with everything I had. This is gonna seem a little funny, but when I crossed the line I was super pumped, but, also, at mile 24, I shat my pants. When I finished the race, my parents were standing along the fence. My dad asked me something. I thought he asked me how I felt or how it went and I put my thumbs down because I had poop in my pants. But he actually asked me: “Did you get it?” And then he checked his phone and said, “You did it.” 
Click to expand...

 
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bushdocda said:
Good site with runner stuff and the course, I’m irrationally interested in this.

https://www.atlanta2020trials.com/athletes

On February 29, 2020, the race will be broadcast live on NBC across the country. The broadcast will be live at 12:00 p.m. EST, with coverage concluding at 3:00 p.m.
Click to expand...
Gonna be there in person watching with @gianmarco. Can’t wait.

My HS classmate and friend is running in her FOURTH (and likely last) Trials.

 
MAC_32 said:
I often don't hit my target paces. I don't think it's important early in a training cycle though. I'm 2-5 so far on MP runs. And that's a massive improvement vs. fall half training. I was 0-fer pace runs until #5 during week 12 of 17. I never really felt comfortable with anything until week 11. But I think that's a good thing. Spend the first 2/3 of the training cycle making yourself uncomfortable with the objective of putting all of the pieces together over the final 1/3.

Sure, I'd like to experience some confidence boosting workouts before mid-late March, but if that doesn't happen there's no reason to worry. If I'm not accomplishing at least some of my goals between then and sometime in April then a re-assessment may be in order, but I don't think there's any point worrying about it before then. Ultimately, April me will benefit more if winter me puts myself through hell. So, instead of focusing on paces right now focus instead on putting myself through hell, knowing if I do that then the spring paces should take care of themselves.
Click to expand...
I"m with @gruecd on this one.  I can't take the confidence hit of usually missing my paces.  I'm all for testing ourselves and prefer the hard workouts outside, but if I go 2 weeks without hitting my training goals, I'm a complete mess emotionally.

If I start to miss paces, I usually find myself heading to the track or treadmill to hopefully get my mojo back.

 
Paced Miami marathon on Sunday. Its a fun time but not a race you would want to try to PR.  Just too warm.  Temps were 77 degrees at the finish.

I led the 4:00 pace group which is a huge group. I finished at 3:59:29.  A few thoughts.....the road is much more crowded at 4:00 pace than even 3:40-3:45 area.  Its really a noticeable difference.  Interestingly, my legs struggled with this race.  I know I have lost a bunch of fitness, but I didn't expect this to be as tough as it was.  Here I am two days later and my quads are pretty stiff.  I know @gruecd mentioned me pacing a race too slow....I don't know if that's the cause or I'm just a fat F.

One funny story, a woman asked if she could hold the 4:00 pace sign around mile 12.  I happily let her and she carried it through downtown where there were crowds.  Then once we got out of the city, she picked up the pace a bit fast (by 20-30 seconds/mile). I stayed back on pace where most of my group stayed.  Eventually, I had to run ahead to her and tell her I needed her to either slow down or I would take the sign away from her.  She slowed down back to pace and carried the sign until mile 15.5.  Promptly gave it to me and immediately dropped off the pace and finished in 4:20.  That being said, she was easy on the eyes, so once pictures come out, I may be providing you a bib # for your viewing pleasure.

 
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SteelCurtain said:
Paced Miami marathon on Sunday. Its a fun time but not a race you would want to try to PR.  Just too warm.  Temps were 77 degrees at the finish.

I led the 4:00 pace group which is a huge slot.  A few thoughts.....the road is much more crowded at 4:00 pace than even 3:40-3:45 area.  Its really a noticeable difference.  Interestingly, my legs struggled with this race.  I know I have lost a bunch of fitness, but I didn't expect this to be as tough as it was.  Here I am two days later and my quads are pretty stiff.  I know @gruecd mentioned me pacing a race too slow....I don't know if that's the cause or I'm just a fat F.
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Loved reading the comments on your strava feed from the people you paced. Nice work.  :thumbup:

 
SteelCurtain said:
Paced Miami marathon on Sunday. Its a fun time but not a race you would want to try to PR.  Just too warm.  Temps were 77 degrees at the finish.

I led the 4:00 pace group which is a huge slot.  A few thoughts.....the road is much more crowded at 4:00 pace than even 3:40-3:45 area.  Its really a noticeable difference.  Interestingly, my legs struggled with this race.  I know I have lost a bunch of fitness, but I didn't expect this to be as tough as it was.  Here I am two days later and my quads are pretty stiff.  I know @gruecd mentioned me pacing a race too slow....I don't know if that's the cause or I'm just a fat F.
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I am guessing the temperature has more to do with it than the pace, you're body can't be prepared to run efficiently in 70 degrees in February. I know I was struggling this morning with 6 miles in a warm gym on the treadmill, I am hoping my issue was hydration related. 

 
ChiefD said:
Loved reading the comments on your strava feed from the people you paced. Nice work.  :thumbup:
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The last guy who commented on my Strava (initials of JM) ran next to me the entire miles 5 through 12.5.  He was right on my shoulder.  He didn't talk to me and I, as a pacer, try to respect those who don't wish to talk during their race.  

At mile 12.5 is where the half marathoners split off to go to the finish.  At mile 12.3, he spoke to me for the first time and said. "I have always wanted to break 2 hours for the half, and I decided I would run with you.  I have run with you the whole way and I want to say thank you because I'm going to break 2 hours with your help."     I got a little dusty as he and I both knew he was going to do it (he was looking strong) and it was awesome to see.  This is why I love to pace people. 

To top it off, I think he joined strava just after the Miami Marathon. 

 
SteelCurtain said:
A few thoughts.....the road is much more crowded at 4:00 pace than even 3:40-3:45 area.  Its really a noticeable difference.
Click to expand...
I was thinking about that after the Monumental this year. Take this with a grain of salt since I have run exactly 4 HMs and 1 full one but it seems to me the crowd you have around you has a lot to do with the corrals. Last year when I ran the HM at the Monumental, I started near the front of the corral I was in - it was near the 2:05/2:10 pace groups but since it was near the front of corral it felt almost like a "small race" - i.e. I didn't much traffic at all the whole day - the only exception was a couple of the early water stations that kind of crowd the road. Same thing when I actually ran with a pacer the first time at the Fort Ben HM - was near the front of the 2nd corral to go off and thus no traffic/crowds at all. 

At the Monumental this year, I ran with the 3:40 pacer all day - well until about mile 19/20, anyway. That pace group started near the end of the corral and we were in heavy, heavy traffic until the split at mile 7-ish. And it continued to be a large group of people - with the pacer and just in the general area - until about the HM point in Broad Ripple. After that, it started to thin out more and more over the next 4 or 5 miles. Likewise, the Indy 500 HM technically has like 26 corrals (A-Z) but they send off runners like 5 corrals at a time - I was in like C or D that collapsed together with A-E to start just after the elite runners took off. That put me near the back of that pack and in a decent amount of traffic/company pretty much all day. 

If the Monumental pace group had been back about :thisfar: (i.e. to be behind the rope), we would have had a much clearer path for most of the day.

 
Oh and Carmel ended up being kind of a cluster - with all the rain, the corrals were almost non-existent and people were not lined up very well in terms of expected finish, imo. It was a mess for the first several miles.

 
Only point being that being the beginning or the end of a corral can be a huge difference in terms of traffic impact on a race. You studly studs that are running near the front wouldn't normally be impacted by that but definitely something for those of us a little further back to consider when picking a starting spot - could be worth it to start a corral back for more open running lanes than to be stuck in traffic at the back of a corral. 

 
Little over a month ago, did a trial tempo run per @MAC_32's suggestion and was able to get 5 miles in a little faster than goal HMP relatively comfortably.  HR for those miles was in the low-mid 160's which is about what I would hope and expect. 

Today was a perfect opportunity to do it again and extend it.  After a lower mileage week and slower paces last week, I was ready to run harder.  Perfect weather at 38 degrees, a little bit of sun, and I was near our old home so a "new" place to run that I haven't been to in a while.  The first part I picked is relatively flat so it would work well.  Except for a decent headwind where I started for the first couple miles, it was ideal to test where I'm at.  I should have warmed up a little more than the half mile I did so my 1st mile was more of a struggle than I would have liked.  I didn't watch my HR at all for this run, but looking back and seeing it in the low 160's at that point isn't surprising because that's what it felt like.  Comfortably uncomfortable.  But, after that 1st mile at pace, it started getting a whole lot easier.  It's especially encouraging to look back and see my HR come back down as I settled in and get into the 150's and stay there for a while.  The next 3 miles ticked off pretty easily at an uncomfortably comfortable pace, hit a bit of an uphill and then a longer downhill and 5 miles at pace was done without much difficulty.  Instead of staying on the flat stuff, I opted at that point to do some hills and keep pace.  While my HR climbed back into the 160's, I'm glad that it wasn't that terrible.  Finished 7 miles at HMP and then did a final half mile at faster than my 5K PR pace (7:19). 

I have no doubt I'll be able to finish this HM coming up in a few weeks at this 8:15 pace and I know I have faster in me.  I also know my wife is in a similar fitness spot as me so she should be able to do the same.  Will still stick with the plan for various reasons, but today's run was very helpful and encouraging.  I'll be interested to see how my legs feel in the next couple days but, right now, that didn't feel like a race day effort.  Maybe I'll try and PR my 5K at the end of the HM!

 
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gruecd said:
Gonna be there in person watching with @gianmarco. Can’t wait.

My HS classmate and friend is running in her FOURTH (and likely last) Trials.
Click to expand...
Oh you guys are going?  I was thinking about it (most likely can't).  But I'm strangely obsessed with this as well.  Will be cheering for Walmsley, of course.

 
Zasada said:
Will be cheering for Walmsley, of course.
Click to expand...
You just know that dude is gonna come right outta the gate and try to lead the whole way. I just don't see him as a guy who is gonna hang with a pack and play some strategic race.

I see him as a "I'm gonna come here and crush your spirit for 26 miles" kind of guy.

 
Zasada said:
Oh you guys are going?  I was thinking about it (most likely can't).  But I'm strangely obsessed with this as well.  Will be cheering for Walmsley, of course.
Click to expand...
Yeah.  This will actually be my 3rd time attending the trials (2008 in Boston and 2012 in Houston).  It's pretty cool in a nerdy runner kind of way.

 
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SteelCurtain said:
Paced Miami marathon on Sunday. Its a fun time but not a race you would want to try to PR.  Just too warm.  Temps were 77 degrees at the finish.

I led the 4:00 pace group which is a huge group. I finished at 3:59:29.  A few thoughts.....the road is much more crowded at 4:00 pace than even 3:40-3:45 area.  Its really a noticeable difference.  Interestingly, my legs struggled with this race.  I know I have lost a bunch of fitness, but I didn't expect this to be as tough as it was.  Here I am two days later and my quads are pretty stiff.  I know @gruecd mentioned me pacing a race too slow....I don't know if that's the cause or I'm just a fat F.

One funny story, a woman asked if she could hold the 4:00 pace sign around mile 12.  I happily let her and she carried it through downtown where there were crowds.  Then once we got out of the city, she picked up the pace a bit fast (by 20-30 seconds/mile). I stayed back on pace where most of my group stayed.  Eventually, I had to run ahead to her and tell her I needed her to either slow down or I would take the sign away from her.  She slowed down back to pace and carried the sign until mile 15.5.  Promptly gave it to me and immediately dropped off the pace and finished in 4:20.  That being said, she was easy on the eyes, so once pictures come out, I may be providing you a bib # for your viewing pleasure.
Click to expand...
The guy I paced in Miami with has a blog (and way more time than me apparently.)  He wrote about the Miami pacing experience if you are interested.  The picture of the bigger guy in blue carrying the sign, there is a lady to the left in the photo with bib 2152. She was the one who carried my sign for a few miles.

Blog

 
So... RAMP tests. Anyone with experience here? 

I decided to jump on the bike trainer at the gym today instead of running outside (it's rained like 3" the last couple days). Saw an option to do the RAMP test and figured why not. 

The bike has it set up for 4 minute intervals, starting at 75w. I've read that it's supposed to be every 2 minutes but that's what the bike was set for. The first 20 minutes was too easy, boring even. Hopefully I'll see a way to adjust the time and starting point. Finally I got up to 300w, but then a spin class was about to start and I was a sweaty mess (I'll also bring a towel next time). So I stopped. 

I'm not sure if this is better than an ftp test, it's too easy at first. 

 
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Reactions: JAA
bushdocda said:
Not finding a list of HM PRs of the qualifiers but pretty sure plenty have faster halfs.  As you mentioned, I too wonder if he’ll try to break earlier than ‘conventional wisdom’ of the road runners that are faster on paper. 
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Here are the half times.

Tricky to get to.  You have to select the gender first before the toggle appears.

 
bushdocda said:
Hadn’t seen that, thanks. Not sure if it shows the HM pr for the folks who qualified using the marathon standard. 
Click to expand...
Either way, looks like he at least compares favorably.  If anything, I would think he'd have a better conversion ratio from HM to full considering his experience/abilities at much longer distances.

 
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