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Rank these players for career value (1 Viewer)

Doug Drinen

Doug Drinen

Footballguy
Moderator
Total career value, not just peak value.

Use whatever criteria you want.

Do it off the top of your head in a few seconds, or spend a lot of time examining the credentials. Whatever you like.

If you've never heard of (or just barely heard of) some of these players, then feel free to rank just the ones you're comfortable ranking.

Players are in alphabetical order.

Dale Carter

Cris Carter

Kevin Carter

Dexter Coakley

Warrick Dunn

Dan Hampton

Seth Joyner

John Lynch

Clay Matthews

Eric Moulds

Anthony Munoz

Roman Phifer

Bruce Smith

Neil Smith

Aeneas Williams

Why, you ask? Well, I'm trying to devise a way to very approximately put a number on the career of an NFL player in such a way that the numbers roughly match with peoples' perceptions. I've got a rough draft of the method and I'd like to see if the rankings my method spits out come close to matching the Shark Pool rankings on this (almost) randomly-selected group of guys from different positions and different decades.

Thanks.

For bonus credit, tell me which player in each pair had the better overall career:

Emmitt Smith or Mike Singletary

Cris Carter or Darrell Green

Tiki Barber or Will Shields

Irving Fryar or Leslie O'Neal

Mark Duper or Todd Steussie

Eddie George or Darren Woodson

 
Anthony Munoz

Bruce Smith

Cris Carter

Aeneas Williams

Dan Hampton

Clay Matthews

Neil Smith

Warrick Dunn

Seth Joyner

Kevin Carter

John Lynch

Eric Moulds

Dale Carter

Roman Phifer

Dexter Coakley

Emmitt Smith or Mike Singletary--Emmitt. Heck, I can't think of too many players, period, that had a better career than Emmitt. Great career numbers, team success, money.....

Cris Carter or Darrell Green--I abstain. Tough choice here. Forced to choose, I go with Green, for success with the team that drafted him, and not having to "come back".

Tiki Barber or Will Shields--Shields. Hall of Fame career as a guard, versus a running back that only had a handful of impact seasons. Tiki loses points for being a self-promoting egotistical jerky.

Irving Fryar or Leslie O'Neal--O'Neal. Fryar has him beat in entertainment value, but that's it. O'Neal was a wrecking machine for years in SD, and a few years hanging around in MIA doesn't change Fryar's bust status. Also loses points for dropping that pass in the Orange Bowl.

Mark Duper or Todd Steussie--Steussie. My first thought was Duper, but considering he got the best years of Marino, probably shoulda had better numbers. I'll take the 10 year starter at OT.

Eddie George or Darren Woodson--Woodson. Easiest choice. George was a grinder, got hurt a lot, and was generally overrated, IMO. Woodson probably was, too, but made a lot of plays, and was definitely a leader.

 
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I think my mind goes to Munoz or Hannah, Smith or White, regardless if Hannah or White are there. IMO Hannah and Munoz are the two best ever. I know some like Jones, Pace, Ogden, pick a recent Chief, pick a Steelers C etc but for me it's those two.

 
massraider said:
Eddie George or Darren Woodson--Woodson. Easiest choice. George was a grinder, got hurt a lot, and was generally overrated, IMO. Woodson probably was, too, but made a lot of plays, and was definitely a leader.
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George didn't miss a game til he was a Cowboy. Just an FYI, that's all.I think Doug is looking for perception so if that's what came to mind that's what did. Maybe that means people really don't care for those last hurrah type years.

 
Bruce Smith

Anthony Munoz

Clay Matthews

Cris Carter

Neil Smith

Aeneas Williams

Dan Hampton

John Lynch

Warrick Dunn

Kevin Carter

Dale Carter

Dexter Coakley

Seth Joyner

Roman Phifer

Eric Moulds

Emmitt Smith

Cris Carter

Tiki Barber

Leslie O'Neal

Todd Steussie

Eddie George

 
Anthony Munoz

Bruce Smith

Dan Hampton

Aeneas Williams

Neil Smith

Cris Carter

John Lynch

Clay Matthews

Dale Carter

Warrick Dunn

Seth Joyner

Kevin Carter

Eric Moulds

Dexter Coakley

Roman Phifer

Emmitt Smith or Mike Singletary

Cris Carter or Darrell Green

Tiki Barber or Will Shields

Irving Fryar or Leslie O'Neal

Mark Duper or Todd Steussie

Eddie George or Darren Woodson

 
1.Bruce Smith

2.Anthony Munoz

3.John Lynch

4.Aeneas Williams

5.Cris Carter

6.Neil Smith

7.Dan Hampton

8.Dale Carter

9.Clay Matthews

10.Seth Joyner

11.Eric Moulds

12.Dexter Coakley

13.Warrick Dunn

14.Kevin Carter

15.Roman Phifer

Mike Singletary over Emmitt Smith

Cris Carter over Darrell Green

Will Shields over Tiki Barber

Leslie O'Neal over Irving Fryar

Mark Duper over Todd Stuessie

Darren Woodson over Eddie George

 
Doug Drinen said:
Why, you ask? Well, I'm trying to devise a way to very approximately put a number on the career of an NFL player in such a way that the numbers roughly match with peoples' perceptions. I've got a rough draft of the method and I'd like to see if the rankings my method spits out come close to matching the Shark Pool rankings on this (almost) randomly-selected group of guys from different positions and different decades.
Click to expand...
You said perceptions, so I'm going completely from gut / memory. Anthony Munoz

Bruce Smith

Cris Carter

John Lynch

Dan Hampton

Clay Matthews

Aeneas Williams

Dale Carter

Neil Smith

Seth Joyner

Dexter Coakley

Eric Moulds

Warrick Dunn

Kevin Carter

Roman Phifer

Emmitt Smith or Mike Singletary

Cris Carter or Darrell Green

Tiki Barber or Will Shields

Irving Fryar or Leslie O'Neal

Mark Duper or Todd Steussie

Eddie George or Darren Woodson

FWIW, all things being roughly equal, I tend to value the offensive lineman or defensive player higher than offensive skill players.

 
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1. Munoz

2. Hampton

3. BSmith

4. NSmith

5. CCarter

6. Williams

7. Lynch

8. DCarter

9. Joyner

10. Matthews

11. Moulds

12. KCarter

13. Dunn

14. Coakley

15. Phifer

Smith over Singletary

Green over Carter

Shields over Barber

O'Neal over Fryar

Steussie over Duper

Woodson over George

 
Ranked in order of impact in NFL........Munoz was one of the first new-generation prototype LTs, huge and nimble. He set a standard of excellence that still is used as a measuring stick today......Just edges Bruce Smith in my book...

Anthony Munoz

Bruce Smith

Aeneas Williams

Cris Carter

Neil Smith

John Lynch

Clay Matthews

Dan Hampton

Dale Carter

Seth Joyner

Warrick Dunn

Eric Moulds

Kevin Carter

Roman Phifer

Dexter Coakley

Emmitt Smith over Mike Singletary

Darrell Green over Cris Carter

Will Shields over Tiki Barber

Leslie O'Neal over Irving Fryar

Mark Duper over Todd Steussie

Darren Woodson over Eddie George

 
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Anthony Munoz

Bruce Smith

Clay Matthews

Dan Hampton

Neil Smith

Cris Carter

Warrick Dunn

Aeneas Williams

Dale Carter

John Lynch

Seth Joyner

Kevin Carter

Eric Moulds

Dexter Coakley

Roman Phifer

 
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Anthony Munoz

Bruce Smith

....

Aeneas Williams

Neil Smith

Cris Carter

John Lynch

Dale Carter

Dan Hampton

Warrick Dunn

Kevin Carter

Clay Matthews

Seth Joyner

Eric Moulds

Dexter Coakley

Roman Phifer

Emmitt Smith or Mike Singletary (Emmitt was excellent!)

Cris Carter or Darrell Green (DG more valuable)

Tiki Barber or Will Shields (Will is worth a lot more)

Irving Fryar or Leslie O'Neal (Fryar was a solid receiver but I take Oneal in a close one)

Mark Duper or Todd Steussie (Duper was a decent but short receiver made better by Marino's greatness - Steussie is the clear choice for me here

Eddie George or Darren Woodson Very close for me but I went with George as I thought Woodson didn't do enough, but I think George wasn't as great as many think.

 
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Anthony Munoz

Bruce Smith

Dan Hampton

Cris Carter

Aeneas Williams

Neil Smith

John Lynch

Dale Carter

Warrick Dunn

Clay Matthews

Seth Joyner

Kevin Carter

Eric Moulds

Dexter Coakley

Roman Phifer

Mike Singletary

Darrell Green

Will Shields

Leslie O'Neal

Todd Steussie

Darren Woodson

 
This is very strange to me. Dan Hampton's in the HOF with good reason - what's he doing so low on these lists? Warrick Dunn over Hampton? Yikes.

 
Tick said:
This is very strange to me. Dan Hampton's in the HOF with good reason - what's he doing so low on these lists? Warrick Dunn over Hampton? Yikes.
Click to expand...
Actually mine was one of the very few that had Dunn over Hampton (besides the alphabetical one), and I simply made an oversight. You're absolutely correct. Hampton was a top-notch two-way DL while Dunn was an above-average RB.
 
Tick said:
This is very strange to me. Dan Hampton's in the HOF with good reason - what's he doing so low on these lists? Warrick Dunn over Hampton? Yikes.
Click to expand...
That is pretty shocking. As is Tiki over Shields. To a lesser extent Emmitt over Singletary is a bit of a surprise. Two guys who play different positions makes it harder but I can't see Emmitt over Singletary. Dallas would have still won a super bowl(maybe all 3) with an above average back like Rodney Hampton or someone like that at RB. Chicago without Singletary wouldn't have been half the defense it was if they had a guy like Jack Del Rio at MLB.
 
travdogg said:
Tick said:
This is very strange to me. Dan Hampton's in the HOF with good reason - what's he doing so low on these lists? Warrick Dunn over Hampton? Yikes.
Click to expand...
That is pretty shocking. As is Tiki over Shields. To a lesser extent Emmitt over Singletary is a bit of a surprise. Two guys who play different positions makes it harder but I can't see Emmitt over Singletary. Dallas would have still won a super bowl(maybe all 3) with an above average back like Rodney Hampton or someone like that at RB. Chicago without Singletary wouldn't have been half the defense it was if they had a guy like Jack Del Rio at MLB.
Click to expand...
THe exact phrase was "better overall career".By almost any standard, Emmitt had a better career than Singletary.
 
massraider said:
THe exact phrase was "better overall career".By almost any standard, Emmitt had a better career than Singletary.
Click to expand...
How about # of pro-bowls? All-pro? Singletary played 12 years, with 10 pro-bowls and 9 all-pro selectionsEmmitt played 15 years, with 8 pro-bowls and 6 all-pro selectionsA decent RB would have a lot of success in Dallas during that time. Troy Hambrick even halfway looked decent. Singletary was the key to that defense. I don't mean to dismiss Emmitt's accomplishments, he is one of the best RBs ever, but IMO, Singletary was more important to his team. But like I said above, "FWIW, all things being roughly equal, I tend to value the offensive lineman or defensive player higher than offensive skill players." The only RBs I'll rate over exceptional LBs are the truly elite - Barry and LT come to mind.
 
FUBAR said:
massraider said:
THe exact phrase was "better overall career".By almost any standard, Emmitt had a better career than Singletary.
Click to expand...
A decent RB would have a lot of success in Dallas during that time. Troy Hambrick even halfway looked decent. Singletary was the key to that defense.
Click to expand...
He also played for some bad teams. Emmitt won more, played longer, got paid more, and on and on. The fact that he may or may not have been a "system" guy doesn't really enter into it, as far as I am concerned. Emmitt, IMO, had a better career.
 
massraider said:
FUBAR said:
massraider said:
THe exact phrase was "better overall career".

By almost any standard, Emmitt had a better career than Singletary.
Click to expand...
A decent RB would have a lot of success in Dallas during that time. Troy Hambrick even halfway looked decent.

Singletary was the key to that defense.
Click to expand...
He also played for some bad teams. Emmitt won more, played longer, got paid more, and on and on. The fact that he may or may not have been a "system" guy doesn't really enter into it, as far as I am concerned. Emmitt, IMO, had a better career.
Click to expand...
By that definition, Alex Smith was a better 49er QB than Joe Montana.
 
Anthony Munoz

Bruce Smith

Dale Carter

Neil Smith

Cris Carter

Dan Hampton

Seth Joyner

Aeneas Williams

Warrick Dunn

John Lynch

Kevin Carter

Dexter Coakley

Clay Matthews

Eric Moulds

Roman Phifer

Emmitt Smith over Mike Singletary

Darrell Green over Cris Carter

Will Shields over Tiki Barber

Leslie O'Neal over Irving Fryar

Mark Duper over Todd Stuessie

Eddie George over Darren Woodson

 
travdogg said:
massraider said:
FUBAR said:
massraider said:
THe exact phrase was "better overall career".

By almost any standard, Emmitt had a better career than Singletary.
Click to expand...
A decent RB would have a lot of success in Dallas during that time. Troy Hambrick even halfway looked decent.

Singletary was the key to that defense.
Click to expand...
He also played for some bad teams. Emmitt won more, played longer, got paid more, and on and on. The fact that he may or may not have been a "system" guy doesn't really enter into it, as far as I am concerned. Emmitt, IMO, had a better career.
Click to expand...
By that definition, Alex Smith was a better 49er QB than Joe Montana.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: Salary has surprisingly little to do with success. Is/was Michael Vick one of the best players in the NFL?

 
travdogg said:
massraider said:
FUBAR said:
massraider said:
THe exact phrase was "better overall career".

By almost any standard, Emmitt had a better career than Singletary.
Click to expand...
A decent RB would have a lot of success in Dallas during that time. Troy Hambrick even halfway looked decent.

Singletary was the key to that defense.
Click to expand...
He also played for some bad teams. Emmitt won more, played longer, got paid more, and on and on. The fact that he may or may not have been a "system" guy doesn't really enter into it, as far as I am concerned. Emmitt, IMO, had a better career.
Click to expand...
By that definition, Alex Smith was a better 49er QB than Joe Montana.
Click to expand...
Luckily, I wasn't just going by that definition. Thanks, tho.And I still don't care who the better player was. I am answering, "who had the better career".

 
Thanks to all who have responded. I'll try to get something written up soon about how my method ranks these guys. Thanks again!

 
Doug Drinen said:
For bonus credit, tell me which player in each pair had the better overall career:

Emmitt Smith or Mike Singletary

Cris Carter or Darrell Green

Tiki Barber or Will Shields

Irving Fryar or Leslie O'Neal

Mark Duper or Todd Steussie

Eddie George or Darren Woodson
Click to expand...
I'm assuming there's a good reason why the players on the left are all RBs or WRs and the players on the right played less glamorous positions.Edit: Sorry, just reread the first post and understand. An interesting study, look forward to results.

 
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Anthony Munoz

Bruce Smith

Cris Carter

Dale Carter

Clay Matthews

Dan Hampton

Neil Smith

Aeneas Williams

Seth Joyner

Warrick Dunn

John Lynch

Kevin Carter

Dexter Coakley

Eric Moulds

Roman Phifer

Emmitt Smith > Mike Singletary

Cris Carter > Darrell Green

Tiki Barber < Will Shields

Irving Fryar > Leslie O'Neal

Mark Duper > Todd Steussie

Eddie George > Darren Woodson

 
kerpow said:
Doug Drinen said:
For bonus credit, tell me which player in each pair had the better overall career:

Emmitt Smith or Mike Singletary

Cris Carter or Darrell Green

Tiki Barber or Will Shields

Irving Fryar or Leslie O'Neal

Mark Duper or Todd Steussie

Eddie George or Darren Woodson
Click to expand...
I'm assuming there's a good reason why the players on the left are all RBs or WRs and the players on the right played less glamorous positions.Edit: Sorry, just reread the first post and understand. An interesting study, look forward to results.
Click to expand...
I think the answer is in Doug's original post:Well, I'm trying to devise a way to very approximately put a number on the career of an NFL player in such a way that the numbers roughly match with peoples' perceptions.

 
There are two interesting thoughts:

1. Skill posistion players and the ones that get a lot of attention will generally be ranked more favorably. In my opinion, Mark Duper is a pretty mediocre wide receiver. But I did not follow the career of Todd Stuessie, but I have heard of him. So more than likely, Stussie is the better player.

2. More recent players will generally get ranked higher. That is the only reason I can think of that anyone would not rank Munoz as tops on the list. Some people here may not remember him that well.

 
I didn't look at the lists in much detail, but my thoughts:

Munoz is top player on the list.

Singletary over Emmitt

Green over Carter

Woodson over George (probably the easiest one).

 
Marvelous said:
2. More recent players will generally get ranked higher. That is the only reason I can think of that anyone would not rank Munoz as tops on the list.
Click to expand...
How about this as a reason: Bruce Smith is one of the best players in the history of ever. Munoz is too, obviously, and those two are a clear top-two over the rest of the field according to both your votes and my system. I am a little surprised at the near-unanimous support of Munoz over Smith, though.

My system says Smith over Munoz. I'm not going to argue that as being right (and the SP consensus wrong), but I will explain why it turned out that way. It's because Smith played almost 100 games more than Munoz did. That's about six seasons worth. In his worst six seasons, Smith had 34 sacks. While Munoz may have been better than Smith in his prime, I don't see any way he was so much better that if you match Munoz' 13 seasons against Smith's 13 best seasons, that the difference is worth more than 5 or 6 seasons of an average DT/DE starter.

But all that is quibbling. Let's face it: none of us has the foggiest idea whether Smith or Munoz had the more valuable career. And no system will change that. But this thread has been immensely valuable to me, because it's given me a lot of insight about the process by which people mentally evaluate players. What the Munoz-over-Smith consensus tells me is that, roughly, people don't see much difference between a 13-year HoF career and a 19-year HoF career. We don't/can't mentally compute the value of Smith's 19 great seasons against Munoz's slightly greater (on average) 13 seasons. We just say something like, "they were both great and had long careers, but Munoz was a little greater."

Clay Matthews is another guy that my system likes a little better than the consensus for essentially the same reason. He was a 16-year starter and a darn good one. But it's really tough to factor in how that compares to a "mere" 12-year starter like Neil Smith who was probably a bit better in his prime.

Anyway, thanks again for all the comments. They have been very valuable. I will say this: except for Dale Carter (whom my system really hates for reasons I don't completely understand yet), my system would not be the highest vote or the lowest vote on any of the 15 players. So it's in the ballpark.

Is anyone up for another batch of players?

 
More players...

I was too scared to put any QBs in the last list, but what the heck. I'll give it a shot this time. This time, in order to avoid difficult career length comparisons, I chose all players who have played between 12 and 14 seasons. For all active players (Harrison, Zach Thomas, Brooks, etc.), pretend they retired this offseason. In other words, evaluate them only on what they've done so far and not on what you think they might do in the rest of their careers.

Jerome Bettis

Derrick Brooks

Mark Brunell

LeRoy Butler

Aaron Glenn

Marvin Harrison

Brad Hopkins

Steve McNair

Simeon Rice

Shannon Sharpe

Pat Swilling

Darryl Talley

Zach Thomas

Steve Wisniewski

Gary Zimmerman

Thanks again for playing along. This is fun.

 
That's a tougher list...

Jerome Bettis

Marvin Harrison

Derrick Brooks

Aaron Glenn

Shannon Sharpe

Gary Zimmerman

LeRoy Butler

Pat Swilling

Brad Hopkins

Steve McNair

Steve Wisniewski

Simeon Rice

Darryl Talley

Zach Thomas

Mark Brunell

 
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1. Derrick Brooks

2. Marvin Harrison

3. Steve Wisniewski

4. Shannon Sharpe

5. Gary Zimmerman

6. Zach Thomas

7. Jerome Bettis

8. Pat Swilling

9. Leroy Butler

10.Simeon Rice

11.Aaron Glenn

12.Steve McNair

13.Mark Brunell

14.Darryl Talley

15.Brad Hopkins

 
This is pretty much OTTOMH. FWIW, I have a pretty good knowledge of all these players. I'll rank the other list as well ...

Anthony Munoz

Bruce Smith

Cris Carter

Dan Hampton

Neil Smith

Seth Joyner

John Lynch

Clay Matthews

Warrick Dunn

Aeneas Williams

Dale Carter

Eric Moulds

Roman Phifer

Kevin Carter

Dexter Coakley

 
Here is the second list:

Marvin Harrison

Shannon Sharpe

Derrick Brooks

Jerome Bettis

Gary Zimmerman

Steve Wisniewski

Pat Swilling

Zach Thomas

Mark Brunell

Steve McNair

Darryl Talley

Simeon Rice

LeRoy Butler

Aaron Glenn

Brad Hopkins

 
Emmitt Smith or Mike Singletary

Cris Carter or Darrell Green

Tiki Barber or Will Shields

Irving Fryar or Leslie O'Neal

Mark Duper or Todd Steussie

Eddie George or Darren Woodson

Shocked at how many people say Carter over Green. Carter is maybe one of the Top 20 WRs of all-time, but my guess is 20 years from now people will still be talking about Green as the greatest CB of all-time. I think we forget that he was playing at an elite level at the end of a very long career.

 
A quick once over of the second list:

Derrick Brooks

Marvin Harrison

Gary Zimmerman

Mark Brunell

Pat Swilling

Steve McNair

Zack Thomas

Steve Wisniewski

Shannon Sharpe

Simeon Rice

Darryl Talley

Jerome Bettis

LeRoy Butler

Brad Hopkins

Aaron Glenn

I'm probably going to have those two quarterbacks a little higher than most, particularly Brunell. I've been doing some work on breakout offenses, and I am more impressed with Brunell now, and think he was an integral part of teams improving significantly in offensive efficiency, ranging from the expansion Jaguars to the 2005 Redskins late in his career.

 
Marvin Harrison

Shannon Sharpe

Derrick Brooks

Gary Zimmerman

Darryl Talley

Pat Swilling

Steve Wisniewski

Zach Thomas

Simeon Rice

Jerome Bettis

Steve McNair

LeRoy Butler

Mark Brunell

Brad Hopkins

Aaron Glenn

 
Bruce Smith

Anthony Munoz

Aeneas Williams

Seth Joyner

Cris Carter

Clay Matthews

Neil Smith

Dan Hampton

Eric Moulds

Warrick Dunn

Roman Phifer

Dale Carter

John Lynch

Kevin Carter

Dexter Coakley

Emmitt Smith or Mike Singletary

Cris Carter or Darrell Green

Tiki Barber or Will Shields

Irving Fryar or Leslie O'Neal

Mark Duper or Todd Steussie

Eddie George or Darren Woodson

 
Shannon Sharpe

Gary Zimmerman

Marvin Harrison

Derrick Brooks

Simeon Rice

Pat Swilling

Jerome Bettis

Steve McNair

LeRoy Butler

Brad Hopkins

Zach Thomas

Steve Wisniewski

Darryl Talley

Mark Brunell

Aaron Glenn

 
Derrick Brooks

Marvin Harrison

LeRoy Butler

Shannon Sharpe

Pat Swilling

Steve Wisniewski

Gary Zimmerman

Steve McNair

Mark Brunell

Darryl Talley

Jerome Bettis

Zach Thomas

Simeon Rice

Aaron Glenn

Brad Hopkins

 
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1. Derrick Brooks

2. Marvin Harrison

3. Shannon Sharpe

4. Steve Wisniewski

5. Gary Zimmerman

6. Zach Thomas

7. Jerome Bettis

8. Leroy Butler

9. Simeon Rice

10. Pat Swilling

11. Aaron Glenn

12. Darryl Talley

13. Brad Hopkins

14. Steve McNair

15. Mark Brunell

 
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