Yes, of course....Since he missed time with an injury...on a per game basis for this year.Yep, because that's all you need to know. He's an elite QB. Nobody else matters.Big Ben in the 1st tier.....done reading.
Gee never would have guess. Nice to see such an open mind.No one is ever going to convince me that Ben is a Top 3 QB.
Enough already with this. No one knows what would have happened if he had taken the play outside. No one knows what would have ensued even if he had scored. No one knows what would have happened if Carson Palmer's knee hadn't gotten injured. No one knows what would have happened if Roethlisberger choked to death on a Tootsie Pop at age 5 and the Steelers had drafted J.P. Losman instead.Stop with the hypotheticals. Roethlisberger has led this team to the Super Bowl, and that's all that matters. Now, if you don't feel that qualifies him for a top tier spot, that's fine. But enough with the "if...." crap already.If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.
Um, you just made my argument for me. You said McNabb has better stats and then pointed out how McNabb plays in an offense where he shoulders more of the load aka throwing the ball more. Think there is a correlation there? If you are not sure, I will spell it out for you...McNabb has better numbers than Roethlisberger because he throws the ball a lot more.I noticed, too, you left out W/L record and yards per attempt when talking about Roethlisberger.Yes, of course....Since he missed time with an injury...on a per game basis for this year.Yep, because that's all you need to know. He's an elite QB. Nobody else matters.Big Ben in the 1st tier.....done reading.
Passing yards: 198 yards / game
Passing TDs: 1.4 TDs / game
Interceptions: 3.3% of passing attempts
I understand that the Super Bowl run this year is partly because of him, but the playoff run last year was in spite of him.
Take a look at McNabb for instance....
Passing yards: 278 yards / game
Passing TDs: 1.7 TDs / game
Interceptions: 2.5% of passing attempts
McNabb has gone to the NFC Championship the past three years and been to the Super Bowl as well.
I fail to see how Ben can be rated higher than McNabb for instance. McNabb has WAY better stats, a better playoff record and plays in a system where he shoulders much more of the load than Ben (passing vs. running offenses).
Sorry, doesn't fly with me.
Ben should be ranked below the following QBs...Manning, Brady, Vick, Hasselbeck, McNabb, Palmer, Dehomme.
No one is ever going to convince me that Ben is a Top 3 QB. The main reason someone would have him so high is because he has been to the SB and AFC Championship, but last year it was in spite of him, so I don't give credit to him for that.
I'll listen, but thats like saying someone can convince you the world is flat. Just cause someone won't be able to convince me, doesn't mean I am not open minded.Gee never would have guess. Nice to see such an open mind.No one is ever going to convince me that Ben is a Top 3 QB.![]()
And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game? If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more? Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake. Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB. It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw. Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times. His YPA will never be the same as it is now. Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.Um, you just made my argument for me. You said McNabb has better stats and then pointed out how McNabb plays in an offense where he shoulders more of the load aka throwing the ball more. Think there is a correlation there? If you are not sure, I will spell it out for you...McNabb has better numbers than Roethlisberger because he throws the ball a lot more.
I noticed, too, you left out W/L record and yards per attempt when talking about Roethlisberger.
Ok how about this question then: Do you feel that it is possible for you consider Ben a top 3 qb within the next 3 years?I'll listen, but thats like saying someone can convince you the world is flat. Just cause someone won't be able to convince me, doesn't mean I am not open minded.Gee never would have guess. Nice to see such an open mind.No one is ever going to convince me that Ben is a Top 3 QB.![]()
I hope you realize how ridiculous your comments are. I bet you were saying 4 years ago that no one could ever convince you that tom brady would be a top 2 qb in the nfl. and what if the world really is flat? What if it is just projected as round due to some undiscovered effects of gravity and space time? Anything is possible. Oh, and Ben is a top 3 qb.I'll listen, but thats like saying someone can convince you the world is flat. Just cause someone won't be able to convince me, doesn't mean I am not open minded.Gee never would have guess. Nice to see such an open mind.No one is ever going to convince me that Ben is a Top 3 QB.![]()
Is it easy to have your running game completely shut down and have the team rely on you to win the game through the air, then respond by going 11-14 on 3rd downs, including converting 3rd and 7 or more 5 straight times? Is that simply running play action vs. a stacked front?And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game? If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more? Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake. Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB. It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw. Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times. His YPA will never be the same as it is now. Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.Um, you just made my argument for me. You said McNabb has better stats and then pointed out how McNabb plays in an offense where he shoulders more of the load aka throwing the ball more. Think there is a correlation there? If you are not sure, I will spell it out for you...McNabb has better numbers than Roethlisberger because he throws the ball a lot more.
I noticed, too, you left out W/L record and yards per attempt when talking about Roethlisberger.
Do you watch games or pay attention to what other people say here? Look at Roethlisberger's first half numbers this season. He is far more productive, meaning that they often get the lead because of his passing and then they run the ball almost the entire second half of games at times. Roethlisberger, however, has shown that when called upon to win games with his arm, he is more than capable. And to compare him to Orton just shows how little you know about football.And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game? If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more? Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake.
Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB. It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw. Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times. His YPA will never be the same as it is now. Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.
And what did Orton do with those attempts, despite having a very capable running attack (only 7 ypg fewer than Pittsburgh, and a higher ypc average) and an even better defense than Pittsburgh?Orton : 5.1 yards per attemptBig Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake.
Well being a seahawks fan, I think he'll be a singing a different tune on MondayI hope you realize how ridiculous your comments are. I bet you were saying 4 years ago that no one could ever convince you that tom brady would be a top 2 qb in the nfl. and what if the world really is flat? What if it is just projected as round due to some undiscovered effects of gravity and space time? Anything is possible. Oh, and Ben is a top 3 qb.I'll listen, but thats like saying someone can convince you the world is flat. Just cause someone won't be able to convince me, doesn't mean I am not open minded.Gee never would have guess. Nice to see such an open mind.No one is ever going to convince me that Ben is a Top 3 QB.![]()
I think you're helping to make his point. Some don't heap as much praise on a QB based on winning nor heap as much blame for losing as others do. Some say Roth led his team, some say he was along for the ride. And, some say he's really good and simply helped his team win by playing well, but isn't necessarily the main reason they won.Enough already with this...Roethlisberger has led this team to the Super Bowl, and that's all that matters.If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.
Why did you only cut this one part out of his post? If you read all of his posts in this thread, he's supported all of his arguments with stats.I think you're helping to make his point. Some don't heap as much praise on a QB based on winning nor heap as much blame for losing as others do. Some say Roth led his team, some say he was along for the ride. And, some say he's really good and simply helped his team win by playing well, but isn't necessarily the main reason they won.Enough already with this...Roethlisberger has led this team to the Super Bowl, and that's all that matters.If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.
Do you watch games or pay attention to what other people say here? Look at Roethlisberger's first half numbers this season. He is far more productive, meaning that they often get the lead because of his passing and then they run the ball almost the entire second half of games at times. Roethlisberger, however, has shown that when called upon to win games with his arm, he is more than capable. And to compare him to Orton just shows how little you know about football.And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game? If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more? Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake.
Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB. It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw. Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times. His YPA will never be the same as it is now. Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.
Anyone who has watched this year's playoffs and tells me he's been along for the ride not only knows nothing about football, he should be tied to a tree and shot in the head before he pollutes the gene pool further.I think you're helping to make his point. Some don't heap as much praise on a QB based on winning nor heap as much blame for losing as others do. Some say Roth led his team, some say he was along for the ride. And, some say he's really good and simply helped his team win by playing well, but isn't necessarily the main reason they won.Enough already with this...Roethlisberger has led this team to the Super Bowl, and that's all that matters.If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.
I think most of us have a pretty good idea.Enough already with this. No one knows what would have happened if he had taken the play outside...If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.
That's nice and I agree, but is irrelevant to what I think Borat's overall point is. He's simply saying that Roth is as high as #2 on some people's list partly because of things that are out of his control as a QB.Anyone who has watched this year's playoffs and tells me he's been along for the ride not only knows nothing about football, he should be tied to a tree and shot in the head before he pollutes the gene pool further.I think you're helping to make his point. Some don't heap as much praise on a QB based on winning nor heap as much blame for losing as others do. Some say Roth led his team, some say he was along for the ride. And, some say he's really good and simply helped his team win by playing well, but isn't necessarily the main reason they won.Enough already with this...Roethlisberger has led this team to the Super Bowl, and that's all that matters.If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.
You have a pretty good idea of what you think may have happened. Heath Miller may have run him down anyway, just like Watson ran down Champ Bailey the night before. If Bailey had been tripped up at midfield, people would have been saying he'd have scored easily otherwise too. And even if Harper did score, does that mean the game was over? No chance that the ensuing kickoff could have been returned for a TD? Or that a game-winning drive might have ensued? No one would have guessed that Bettis would fumble at the 1 either. If the Steelers hadn't stopped the Colts on 4th down the play just before the Bettis fumble and the Colts instead had converted en route to tying or winning the game, Steeler fans would have been yelling about how if "Porter had gotten to Manning on 4th down,the Bus runs it in from the 1, and the game is over!" Yet, it wasn't, was it?I think most of us have a pretty good idea.Enough already with this. No one knows what would have happened if he had taken the play outside...If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.
I get that, but that argument holds no water as far as I'm concerned. The Steelers have gotten to where they are right now primarily because of him, he's had the MOST control over it. For God's sake, he even made the tackle that brought Harper down in the very play referenced....That's nice and I agree, but is irrelevant to what I think Borat's overall point is. He's simply saying that Roth is as high as #2 on some people's list partly because of things that are out of his control as a QB.Anyone who has watched this year's playoffs and tells me he's been along for the ride not only knows nothing about football, he should be tied to a tree and shot in the head before he pollutes the gene pool further.I think you're helping to make his point. Some don't heap as much praise on a QB based on winning nor heap as much blame for losing as others do. Some say Roth led his team, some say he was along for the ride. And, some say he's really good and simply helped his team win by playing well, but isn't necessarily the main reason they won.Enough already with this...Roethlisberger has led this team to the Super Bowl, and that's all that matters.If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.
Yet anotherDo you watch games or pay attention to what other people say here? Look at Roethlisberger's first half numbers this season. He is far more productive, meaning that they often get the lead because of his passing and then they run the ball almost the entire second half of games at times. Roethlisberger, however, has shown that when called upon to win games with his arm, he is more than capable. And to compare him to Orton just shows how little you know about football.And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game? If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more? Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake.
Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB. It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw. Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times. His YPA will never be the same as it is now. Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.Some stats to support this case further :
1st half of games : 94-154 1475 yards 11 TD/4 INT passer rating of 105.8
That's in 12 games. Those numbers, projected over a full game, then times 16 games yields :
251-411 3,934 yards 30 TD 11 INT
He also has a 115.3 rating and a 9.4 ypa when the Steelers are behind (98.6 passer rating and 8.9 ypa overall), so enough of this crap about padding his ypa stats by running play action against stacked fronts when the Steelers are leading.
Yes this thread (as expected) has evolved into yet another Big Ben thread. I'm not sure that was the intention of the creator?Wow, this thread:
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Intention, no. As soon as he rated Roethlisberger #2 though..... you knew this is where it was headed, though.Yes this thread (as expected) has evolved into yet another Big Ben thread. I'm not sure that was the intention of the creator?Wow, this thread:
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That's fine and I actually agree that Roth has had much to do with their success. But, I think it still stands true that Roth would be nowhere near #2 on most people's lists had Pitt lost that game. In other words, a ton of people would only have one less game (AFC Championship vs Den) to evaluate him and that slight change in his performance would have a great influence on personal rankings.I get that, but that argument holds no water as far as I'm concerned. The Steelers have gotten to where they are right now primarily because of him, he's had the MOST control over it.That's nice and I agree, but is irrelevant to what I think Borat's overall point is. He's simply saying that Roth is as high as #2 on some people's list partly because of things that are out of his control as a QB.Anyone who has watched this year's playoffs and tells me he's been along for the ride not only knows nothing about football, he should be tied to a tree and shot in the head before he pollutes the gene pool further.I think you're helping to make his point. Some don't heap as much praise on a QB based on winning nor heap as much blame for losing as others do. Some say Roth led his team, some say he was along for the ride. And, some say he's really good and simply helped his team win by playing well, but isn't necessarily the main reason they won.Enough already with this...Roethlisberger has led this team to the Super Bowl, and that's all that matters.If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.
Yes, that is the irony of Borat's original comment. But, to be fair, it had nothing to do with his QB skills. Personally, I'd rank Big Ben as a top 5 LB in the NFL today.For God's sake, he even made the tackle that brought Harper down in the very play referenced....
Thanks, and aYet anotherDo you watch games or pay attention to what other people say here? Look at Roethlisberger's first half numbers this season. He is far more productive, meaning that they often get the lead because of his passing and then they run the ball almost the entire second half of games at times. Roethlisberger, however, has shown that when called upon to win games with his arm, he is more than capable. And to compare him to Orton just shows how little you know about football.And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game? If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more? Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake.
Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB. It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw. Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times. His YPA will never be the same as it is now. Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.Some stats to support this case further :
1st half of games : 94-154 1475 yards 11 TD/4 INT passer rating of 105.8
That's in 12 games. Those numbers, projected over a full game, then times 16 games yields :
251-411 3,934 yards 30 TD 11 INT
He also has a 115.3 rating and a 9.4 ypa when the Steelers are behind (98.6 passer rating and 8.9 ypa overall), so enough of this crap about padding his ypa stats by running play action against stacked fronts when the Steelers are leading.. I've been reading these threads/posts going around and around over the past couple of weeks and it's really futile to continue to argue the despite your overwhelming evidence. I will probably get flamed for this but Ben reminds me a lot of Brady in the early years. Guys like Ben/Brady are winners and will do what it takes to make the TEAM win. They don't care if they pass it 12 times or 42 times as long as they get the win. Some people have a real hard time getting beyond the stats. I guess a guy like Aaron Brooks is a better qb since he throws for more yardage, more td's than Roeth.
That's fine and I actually agree that Roth has had much to do with their success. But, I think it still stands true that Roth would be nowhere near #2 on most people's lists had Pitt lost that game. In other words, a ton of people would only have one less game (AFC Championship vs Den) to evaluate him and that slight change in his performance would have a great influence on personal rankings.I get that, but that argument holds no water as far as I'm concerned. The Steelers have gotten to where they are right now primarily because of him, he's had the MOST control over it.That's nice and I agree, but is irrelevant to what I think Borat's overall point is. He's simply saying that Roth is as high as #2 on some people's list partly because of things that are out of his control as a QB.Anyone who has watched this year's playoffs and tells me he's been along for the ride not only knows nothing about football, he should be tied to a tree and shot in the head before he pollutes the gene pool further.I think you're helping to make his point. Some don't heap as much praise on a QB based on winning nor heap as much blame for losing as others do. Some say Roth led his team, some say he was along for the ride. And, some say he's really good and simply helped his team win by playing well, but isn't necessarily the main reason they won.Enough already with this...Roethlisberger has led this team to the Super Bowl, and that's all that matters.If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.Yes, that is the irony of Borat's original comment. But, to be fair, it had nothing to do with his QB skills. Personally, I'd rank Big Ben as a top 5 LB in the NFL today.For God's sake, he even made the tackle that brought Harper down in the very play referenced....![]()
I missed something here. In 12 games he performed the following.9 ints/12gms played =.75 x16gms=12INTDo you watch games or pay attention to what other people say here? Look at Roethlisberger's first half numbers this season. He is far more productive, meaning that they often get the lead because of his passing and then they run the ball almost the entire second half of games at times. Roethlisberger, however, has shown that when called upon to win games with his arm, he is more than capable. And to compare him to Orton just shows how little you know about football.And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game? If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more? Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake.
Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB. It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw. Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times. His YPA will never be the same as it is now. Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.Some stats to support this case further :
1st half of games : 94-154 1475 yards 11 TD/4 INT passer rating of 105.8
That's in 12 games. Those numbers, projected over a full game, then times 16 games yields :
251-411 3,934 yards 30 TD 11 INT
He also has a 115.3 rating and a 9.4 ypa when the Steelers are behind (98.6 passer rating and 8.9 ypa overall), so enough of this crap about padding his ypa stats by running play action against stacked fronts when the Steelers are leading.
Sure, let's say Harper scores the TD.Ben would have just marched back down and scored.I think most of us have a pretty good idea.Enough already with this. No one knows what would have happened if he had taken the play outside...If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.
You're projecting his stats over 16 games. I was projecting his first half stats over a full game, then x16 games. Obviously, this doesn't mean much, but it was meant to give people an idea of what Roethlisberger has done when given the attempts. In the second half of most games this year, the Steelers would often run the ball 20 consecutive plays to eat up clock, so it's rare that Roethlisberger actually gets to play 60 minutes in the Steelers regular offense. These numbers are the best estimate of what we might see if he got to throw the ball for 60 minutes each week. The scary thing is, the 3,934 yards would have ranked 3rd in the NFL and the 30 TD passes would have ranked 2nd, while 411 attempts would have only ranked him 18th.I missed something here. In 12 games he performed the following.9 ints/12gms played =.75 x16gms=12INTDo you watch games or pay attention to what other people say here? Look at Roethlisberger's first half numbers this season. He is far more productive, meaning that they often get the lead because of his passing and then they run the ball almost the entire second half of games at times. Roethlisberger, however, has shown that when called upon to win games with his arm, he is more than capable. And to compare him to Orton just shows how little you know about football.And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game? If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more? Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake.
Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB. It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw. Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times. His YPA will never be the same as it is now. Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.Some stats to support this case further :
1st half of games : 94-154 1475 yards 11 TD/4 INT passer rating of 105.8
That's in 12 games. Those numbers, projected over a full game, then times 16 games yields :
251-411 3,934 yards 30 TD 11 INT
He also has a 115.3 rating and a 9.4 ypa when the Steelers are behind (98.6 passer rating and 8.9 ypa overall), so enough of this crap about padding his ypa stats by running play action against stacked fronts when the Steelers are leading.
20 TDs (including 3 rushing)/12=1.66x16=26.66TD
Yds 2385/12=198.75x16=3180
Still not bad.
It has already been shown in this thread that this is outright false. The Steelers have been passing the ball a ton early in the game. Then when they get a lead, they just run the clock out. So in other words, its the pass setting up the run, not the other way around, and the opponents know this and do indeed gameplan for it.And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game? If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more? Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake. Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB. It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw. Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times. His YPA will never be the same as it is now. Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.Um, you just made my argument for me. You said McNabb has better stats and then pointed out how McNabb plays in an offense where he shoulders more of the load aka throwing the ball more. Think there is a correlation there? If you are not sure, I will spell it out for you...McNabb has better numbers than Roethlisberger because he throws the ball a lot more.
I noticed, too, you left out W/L record and yards per attempt when talking about Roethlisberger.
Quit trying to confuse people with facts.And what did Orton do with those attempts, despite having a very capable running attack (only 7 ypg fewer than Pittsburgh, and a higher ypc average) and an even better defense than Pittsburgh?Orton : 5.1 yards per attemptBig Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake.
Roethlisberger : 8.9 yards per attempt
This has nothing to do with Roethlisberger's skill though, right? Why couldn't Orton just run play-action and throw against stacked fronts? Surely, with as lopsided as Chicago's offense was run vs. pass, they MUST have been facing a lot of 8-9 man fronts too....
You're saying that Ben is hyped becuase of the great run the Steelers have made in the playoffs, and if Harper would have returned the ball for a TD, Pittsburgh would have lost. What of the ref doesn't overturn an INT call that was OBVIOUSLY and INT ? Game over, Pittsburgh probably wins by double digets. Ben has stepped up to the plate, he is 23, 26-4 as a starter, has shown that he has all the tools and can bring this team back in the 4th quarter if needed. He is a tier 1 QB in this league already, he doesn't just "manage" the offense, he leads it.If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.
I never said once that Big Ben was as bad as Orton. I was giving you a reference point for how little he actually throws in a game.Here's another reference point....Eli Manning threw 37 times a game.Quit trying to confuse people with facts.And what did Orton do with those attempts, despite having a very capable running attack (only 7 ypg fewer than Pittsburgh, and a higher ypc average) and an even better defense than Pittsburgh?Orton : 5.1 yards per attemptBig Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake.
Roethlisberger : 8.9 yards per attempt
This has nothing to do with Roethlisberger's skill though, right? Why couldn't Orton just run play-action and throw against stacked fronts? Surely, with as lopsided as Chicago's offense was run vs. pass, they MUST have been facing a lot of 8-9 man fronts too....
You don't think Big Ben has the luxury of a great play action in Pitt because of the amount of run plays they call there?He still gets that luxury in the first half because he is in a Pitt uniform.It has already been shown in this thread that this is outright false. The Steelers have been passing the ball a ton early in the game. Then when they get a lead, they just run the clock out. So in other words, its the pass setting up the run, not the other way around, and the opponents know this and do indeed gameplan for it.And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game? If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more? Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake. Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB. It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw. Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times. His YPA will never be the same as it is now. Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.Um, you just made my argument for me. You said McNabb has better stats and then pointed out how McNabb plays in an offense where he shoulders more of the load aka throwing the ball more. Think there is a correlation there? If you are not sure, I will spell it out for you...McNabb has better numbers than Roethlisberger because he throws the ball a lot more.
I noticed, too, you left out W/L record and yards per attempt when talking about Roethlisberger.
Vick may win some games during the season and maybe a game in the playoffs but he will and has been shut down in any big games in the playoffs. Remind me again what rushing QB has won the Super Bowl? Or even made it to the Super Bowl. Cannot count Cunningham (actually NFC championship that year he lost) when he was on the Vikings because he was not running at that point and same with McNabb last year.Vick may be a one trick pony but what a trick it is. Since when has winning become overrated?Vick is still a one trick pony with a running game to bail him out. He has not developed his passing game to the point where he can keep a defense honest. Reminds of the early McNabb and Cunningham Eras. Will make some big plays but a good defense will more than likely shut Vick down in the playoffs at some point. Running around in the NFL to an extreme just does not work if you want to win a champioship. Until he can pass the ball he is just good for marketing #7 jerseys. He is way overrated.
He's the guy I'd pick first to start off a new franchise. DO you have any idea how many people pay for tickets, jerseys, merch, etc. because Vick is a Falcon? I assure you, his presence is much more valuable to that franchise than most any other player out there.Vick at #5 is a joke. There's no way I'd want him starting off a new franchise. He's not worth 1/2 the money he's paid right now if you're trying to build a SB caliber team.
One loss all time on the road (AFC title @ NE)...an .850 winning percentage all time....yeah, he'd be up there.If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.
I don't know if he would still have an 8.9 YPA, but he does now. You're the one that brought up Orton and when you compare Ben to him there is no comparison even though both teams have a good running game, very good defense and neither one throws much. Ben is already one of the best QB's in the game, I'm sorry you can't see it. That same old tired "game manager" crap is no longer true. Almost everyone now can see it except for a few of you. I watch every single Steeler game and he is the real deal. Taking everything into consideration, including age, there is no other QB I would rather have right now. There will always be people that no matter how good a player is, they will try to find some reason to bring them down. The same thing happened with Brady. At this point, you're either a hater or just not that good at judging talent.I never said once that Big Ben was as bad as Orton. I was giving you a reference point for how little he actually throws in a game.Here's another reference point....Eli Manning threw 37 times a game.Quit trying to confuse people with facts.And what did Orton do with those attempts, despite having a very capable running attack (only 7 ypg fewer than Pittsburgh, and a higher ypc average) and an even better defense than Pittsburgh?Orton : 5.1 yards per attemptBig Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake.
Roethlisberger : 8.9 yards per attempt
This has nothing to do with Roethlisberger's skill though, right? Why couldn't Orton just run play-action and throw against stacked fronts? Surely, with as lopsided as Chicago's offense was run vs. pass, they MUST have been facing a lot of 8-9 man fronts too....
If Ben threw 30-40 times a game, do you think he would still have a 8.9 YPA?
top qb's win big games.. i don't care about if someone throws for 35 td and 4,000 yards and someone else barely gets too 3,000 and has like 18-20 tds.. its about winning and not making mistakes to cost your team and Big Ben has been great at that in his first 2 years cept last year in the playoffs so he belongs in #1 or #2 for me.. If he wins the Superbowl #1 for sure.
In one breath you say how stats don't matter and it's all about leading your team, and in the next breath you pull a snap shot of stats out that pump your guy up. It seems to me that you only want to look at stats that show how good he is, but you don't want to look at stats that show how underused he is.I bet you if you told all 30 GM's that they could pick any QB they want for one year to lead their team (except for Brady and Manning), hardly any would even consider Big Ben.Do you watch games or pay attention to what other people say here? Look at Roethlisberger's first half numbers this season. He is far more productive, meaning that they often get the lead because of his passing and then they run the ball almost the entire second half of games at times. Roethlisberger, however, has shown that when called upon to win games with his arm, he is more than capable. And to compare him to Orton just shows how little you know about football.And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game? If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more? Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake.
Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB. It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw. Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times. His YPA will never be the same as it is now. Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.Some stats to support this case further :
1st half of games : 94-154 1475 yards 11 TD/4 INT passer rating of 105.8
That's in 12 games. Those numbers, projected over a full game, then times 16 games yields :
251-411 3,934 yards 30 TD 11 INT
He also has a 115.3 rating and a 9.4 ypa when the Steelers are behind (98.6 passer rating and 8.9 ypa overall), so enough of this crap about padding his ypa stats by running play action against stacked fronts when the Steelers are leading.
In one breath you say how stats don't matter and it's all about leading your team, and in the next breath you pull a snap shot of stats out that pump your guy up. It seems to me that you only want to look at stats that show how good he is, but you don't want to look at stats that show how underused he is.
I bet you if you told all 30 GM's that they could pick any QB they want for one year to lead their team (except for Brady and Manning), hardly any would even consider Big Ben.
I'm not saying that Big Ben might not become a great QB, all I'm saying is it is laughable that many consider him to be even or better than Manning or Brady right now. This whole thread is oozing of homerism.