Rankings the 32 starting NFL QBs (2 Viewers)

[Borat]

If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

Big Ben in the 1st tier.....done reading.

Yep, because that's all you need to know. He's an elite QB. Nobody else matters.

Yes, of course....Since he missed time with an injury...on a per game basis for this year.

Passing yards: 198 yards / game

Passing TDs: 1.4 TDs / game

Interceptions: 3.3% of passing attempts

I understand that the Super Bowl run this year is partly because of him, but the playoff run last year was in spite of him.

Take a look at McNabb for instance....

Passing yards: 278 yards / game

Passing TDs: 1.7 TDs / game

Interceptions: 2.5% of passing attempts

McNabb has gone to the NFC Championship the past three years and been to the Super Bowl as well.

I fail to see how Ben can be rated higher than McNabb for instance. McNabb has WAY better stats, a better playoff record and plays in a system where he shoulders much more of the load than Ben (passing vs. running offenses).

Sorry, doesn't fly with me.

Ben should be ranked below the following QBs...Manning, Brady, Vick, Hasselbeck, McNabb, Palmer, Dehomme.

No one is ever going to convince me that Ben is a Top 3 QB. The main reason someone would have him so high is because he has been to the SB and AFC Championship, but last year it was in spite of him, so I don't give credit to him for that.

 

[jurb26]

No one is ever going to convince me that Ben is a Top 3 QB.

Gee never would have guess. Nice to see such an open mind.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.

Enough already with this. No one knows what would have happened if he had taken the play outside. No one knows what would have ensued even if he had scored. No one knows what would have happened if Carson Palmer's knee hadn't gotten injured. No one knows what would have happened if Roethlisberger choked to death on a Tootsie Pop at age 5 and the Steelers had drafted J.P. Losman instead.Stop with the hypotheticals. Roethlisberger has led this team to the Super Bowl, and that's all that matters. Now, if you don't feel that qualifies him for a top tier spot, that's fine. But enough with the "if...." crap already.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Big Ben in the 1st tier.....done reading.

Yep, because that's all you need to know. He's an elite QB. Nobody else matters.

Yes, of course....Since he missed time with an injury...on a per game basis for this year.

Passing yards: 198 yards / game

Passing TDs: 1.4 TDs / game

Interceptions: 3.3% of passing attempts

I understand that the Super Bowl run this year is partly because of him, but the playoff run last year was in spite of him.

Take a look at McNabb for instance....

Passing yards: 278 yards / game

Passing TDs: 1.7 TDs / game

Interceptions: 2.5% of passing attempts

McNabb has gone to the NFC Championship the past three years and been to the Super Bowl as well.

I fail to see how Ben can be rated higher than McNabb for instance. McNabb has WAY better stats, a better playoff record and plays in a system where he shoulders much more of the load than Ben (passing vs. running offenses).

Sorry, doesn't fly with me.

Ben should be ranked below the following QBs...Manning, Brady, Vick, Hasselbeck, McNabb, Palmer, Dehomme.

No one is ever going to convince me that Ben is a Top 3 QB. The main reason someone would have him so high is because he has been to the SB and AFC Championship, but last year it was in spite of him, so I don't give credit to him for that.

Um, you just made my argument for me. You said McNabb has better stats and then pointed out how McNabb plays in an offense where he shoulders more of the load aka throwing the ball more. Think there is a correlation there? If you are not sure, I will spell it out for you...McNabb has better numbers than Roethlisberger because he throws the ball a lot more.I noticed, too, you left out W/L record and yards per attempt when talking about Roethlisberger.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

No one is ever going to convince me that Ben is a Top 3 QB.

Gee never would have guess. Nice to see such an open mind.

I'll listen, but thats like saying someone can convince you the world is flat. Just cause someone won't be able to convince me, doesn't mean I am not open minded.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

Um, you just made my argument for me. You said McNabb has better stats and then pointed out how McNabb plays in an offense where he shoulders more of the load aka throwing the ball more. Think there is a correlation there? If you are not sure, I will spell it out for you...McNabb has better numbers than Roethlisberger because he throws the ball a lot more.

I noticed, too, you left out W/L record and yards per attempt when talking about Roethlisberger.

And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game? If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more? Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake. Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB. It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw. Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times. His YPA will never be the same as it is now. Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.

 

[fred_1_15301]

No one is ever going to convince me that Ben is a Top 3 QB.

Gee never would have guess. Nice to see such an open mind.

I'll listen, but thats like saying someone can convince you the world is flat. Just cause someone won't be able to convince me, doesn't mean I am not open minded.

Ok how about this question then: Do you feel that it is possible for you consider Ben a top 3 qb within the next 3 years?

 

[kevinray]

No one is ever going to convince me that Ben is a Top 3 QB.

Gee never would have guess. Nice to see such an open mind.

I'll listen, but thats like saying someone can convince you the world is flat. Just cause someone won't be able to convince me, doesn't mean I am not open minded.

I hope you realize how ridiculous your comments are. I bet you were saying 4 years ago that no one could ever convince you that tom brady would be a top 2 qb in the nfl. and what if the world really is flat? What if it is just projected as round due to some undiscovered effects of gravity and space time? Anything is possible. Oh, and Ben is a top 3 qb.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Um, you just made my argument for me.  You said McNabb has better stats and then pointed out how McNabb plays in an offense where he shoulders more of the load aka throwing the ball more.  Think there is a correlation there?  If you are not sure, I will spell it out for you...McNabb has better numbers than Roethlisberger because he throws the ball a lot more.

I noticed, too, you left out W/L record and yards per attempt when talking about Roethlisberger.

And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game? If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more? Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake. Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB. It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw. Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times. His YPA will never be the same as it is now. Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.

Is it easy to have your running game completely shut down and have the team rely on you to win the game through the air, then respond by going 11-14 on 3rd downs, including converting 3rd and 7 or more 5 straight times? Is that simply running play action vs. a stacked front?

 

[Ghost Rider]

And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game? If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more? Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake.

Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB. It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw. Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times. His YPA will never be the same as it is now. Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.

Do you watch games or pay attention to what other people say here? Look at Roethlisberger's first half numbers this season. He is far more productive, meaning that they often get the lead because of his passing and then they run the ball almost the entire second half of games at times. Roethlisberger, however, has shown that when called upon to win games with his arm, he is more than capable. And to compare him to Orton just shows how little you know about football.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake.

And what did Orton do with those attempts, despite having a very capable running attack (only 7 ypg fewer than Pittsburgh, and a higher ypc average) and an even better defense than Pittsburgh?Orton : 5.1 yards per attempt

Roethlisberger : 8.9 yards per attempt

This has nothing to do with Roethlisberger's skill though, right? Why couldn't Orton just run play-action and throw against stacked fronts? Surely, with as lopsided as Chicago's offense was run vs. pass, they MUST have been facing a lot of 8-9 man fronts too....

 

[fred_1_15301]

No one is ever going to convince me that Ben is a Top 3 QB.

Gee never would have guess. Nice to see such an open mind.

I'll listen, but thats like saying someone can convince you the world is flat. Just cause someone won't be able to convince me, doesn't mean I am not open minded.

I hope you realize how ridiculous your comments are. I bet you were saying 4 years ago that no one could ever convince you that tom brady would be a top 2 qb in the nfl. and what if the world really is flat? What if it is just projected as round due to some undiscovered effects of gravity and space time? Anything is possible. Oh, and Ben is a top 3 qb.

Well being a seahawks fan, I think he'll be a singing a different tune on Monday

 

[dgreen]

If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.

Enough already with this...Roethlisberger has led this team to the Super Bowl, and that's all that matters.

I think you're helping to make his point. Some don't heap as much praise on a QB based on winning nor heap as much blame for losing as others do. Some say Roth led his team, some say he was along for the ride. And, some say he's really good and simply helped his team win by playing well, but isn't necessarily the main reason they won.

 

[fred_1_15301]

If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.

Enough already with this...Roethlisberger has led this team to the Super Bowl, and that's all that matters.

I think you're helping to make his point. Some don't heap as much praise on a QB based on winning nor heap as much blame for losing as others do. Some say Roth led his team, some say he was along for the ride. And, some say he's really good and simply helped his team win by playing well, but isn't necessarily the main reason they won.

Why did you only cut this one part out of his post? If you read all of his posts in this thread, he's supported all of his arguments with stats.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game?  If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more?  Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake. 

Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB.  It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw.  Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times.  His YPA will never be the same as it is now.  Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.

Do you watch games or pay attention to what other people say here? Look at Roethlisberger's first half numbers this season. He is far more productive, meaning that they often get the lead because of his passing and then they run the ball almost the entire second half of games at times. Roethlisberger, however, has shown that when called upon to win games with his arm, he is more than capable. And to compare him to Orton just shows how little you know about football.

Some stats to support this case further :

1st half of games : 94-154 1475 yards 11 TD/4 INT passer rating of 105.8

That's in 12 games. Those numbers, projected over a full game, then times 16 games yields :

251-411 3,934 yards 30 TD 11 INT

He also has a 115.3 rating and a 9.4 ypa when the Steelers are behind (98.6 passer rating and 8.9 ypa overall), so enough of this crap about padding his ypa stats by running play action against stacked fronts when the Steelers are leading.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.

Enough already with this...Roethlisberger has led this team to the Super Bowl, and that's all that matters.

I think you're helping to make his point. Some don't heap as much praise on a QB based on winning nor heap as much blame for losing as others do. Some say Roth led his team, some say he was along for the ride. And, some say he's really good and simply helped his team win by playing well, but isn't necessarily the main reason they won.

Anyone who has watched this year's playoffs and tells me he's been along for the ride not only knows nothing about football, he should be tied to a tree and shot in the head before he pollutes the gene pool further.

 

[Borat]

If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.

Enough already with this. No one knows what would have happened if he had taken the play outside...

I think most of us have a pretty good idea.

 

[dgreen]

If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.

Enough already with this...Roethlisberger has led this team to the Super Bowl, and that's all that matters.

I think you're helping to make his point. Some don't heap as much praise on a QB based on winning nor heap as much blame for losing as others do. Some say Roth led his team, some say he was along for the ride. And, some say he's really good and simply helped his team win by playing well, but isn't necessarily the main reason they won.

Anyone who has watched this year's playoffs and tells me he's been along for the ride not only knows nothing about football, he should be tied to a tree and shot in the head before he pollutes the gene pool further.

That's nice and I agree, but is irrelevant to what I think Borat's overall point is. He's simply saying that Roth is as high as #2 on some people's list partly because of things that are out of his control as a QB.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.

Enough already with this. No one knows what would have happened if he had taken the play outside...

I think most of us have a pretty good idea.

You have a pretty good idea of what you think may have happened. Heath Miller may have run him down anyway, just like Watson ran down Champ Bailey the night before. If Bailey had been tripped up at midfield, people would have been saying he'd have scored easily otherwise too. And even if Harper did score, does that mean the game was over? No chance that the ensuing kickoff could have been returned for a TD? Or that a game-winning drive might have ensued? No one would have guessed that Bettis would fumble at the 1 either. If the Steelers hadn't stopped the Colts on 4th down the play just before the Bettis fumble and the Colts instead had converted en route to tying or winning the game, Steeler fans would have been yelling about how if "Porter had gotten to Manning on 4th down,the Bus runs it in from the 1, and the game is over!" Yet, it wasn't, was it?

The point is, you never know, so you really need to evaluate based on what actually happened.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.

Enough already with this...Roethlisberger has led this team to the Super Bowl, and that's all that matters.

I think you're helping to make his point. Some don't heap as much praise on a QB based on winning nor heap as much blame for losing as others do. Some say Roth led his team, some say he was along for the ride. And, some say he's really good and simply helped his team win by playing well, but isn't necessarily the main reason they won.

Anyone who has watched this year's playoffs and tells me he's been along for the ride not only knows nothing about football, he should be tied to a tree and shot in the head before he pollutes the gene pool further.

That's nice and I agree, but is irrelevant to what I think Borat's overall point is. He's simply saying that Roth is as high as #2 on some people's list partly because of things that are out of his control as a QB.

I get that, but that argument holds no water as far as I'm concerned. The Steelers have gotten to where they are right now primarily because of him, he's had the MOST control over it. For God's sake, he even made the tackle that brought Harper down in the very play referenced....

 

[jurb26]

Wow, this thread:

 

[Banger]

And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game?  If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more?  Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake. 

Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB.  It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw.  Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times.  His YPA will never be the same as it is now.  Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.

Do you watch games or pay attention to what other people say here? Look at Roethlisberger's first half numbers this season. He is far more productive, meaning that they often get the lead because of his passing and then they run the ball almost the entire second half of games at times. Roethlisberger, however, has shown that when called upon to win games with his arm, he is more than capable. And to compare him to Orton just shows how little you know about football.

Some stats to support this case further :

1st half of games : 94-154 1475 yards 11 TD/4 INT passer rating of 105.8

That's in 12 games. Those numbers, projected over a full game, then times 16 games yields :

251-411 3,934 yards 30 TD 11 INT

He also has a 115.3 rating and a 9.4 ypa when the Steelers are behind (98.6 passer rating and 8.9 ypa overall), so enough of this crap about padding his ypa stats by running play action against stacked fronts when the Steelers are leading.

Yet another . I've been reading these threads/posts going around and around over the past couple of weeks and it's really futile to continue to argue the despite your overwhelming evidence. I will probably get flamed for this but Ben reminds me a lot of Brady in the early years. Guys like Ben/Brady are winners and will do what it takes to make the TEAM win. They don't care if they pass it 12 times or 42 times as long as they get the win. Some people have a real hard time getting beyond the stats. I guess a guy like Aaron Brooks is a better qb since he throws for more yardage, more td's than Roeth.

 

[fred_1_15301]

Wow, this thread:

Yes this thread (as expected) has evolved into yet another Big Ben thread. I'm not sure that was the intention of the creator?

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Wow, this thread:

Yes this thread (as expected) has evolved into yet another Big Ben thread. I'm not sure that was the intention of the creator?

Intention, no. As soon as he rated Roethlisberger #2 though..... you knew this is where it was headed, though.

 

[dgreen]

If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.

Enough already with this...Roethlisberger has led this team to the Super Bowl, and that's all that matters.

I think you're helping to make his point. Some don't heap as much praise on a QB based on winning nor heap as much blame for losing as others do. Some say Roth led his team, some say he was along for the ride. And, some say he's really good and simply helped his team win by playing well, but isn't necessarily the main reason they won.

Anyone who has watched this year's playoffs and tells me he's been along for the ride not only knows nothing about football, he should be tied to a tree and shot in the head before he pollutes the gene pool further.

That's nice and I agree, but is irrelevant to what I think Borat's overall point is. He's simply saying that Roth is as high as #2 on some people's list partly because of things that are out of his control as a QB.

I get that, but that argument holds no water as far as I'm concerned. The Steelers have gotten to where they are right now primarily because of him, he's had the MOST control over it.

That's fine and I actually agree that Roth has had much to do with their success. But, I think it still stands true that Roth would be nowhere near #2 on most people's lists had Pitt lost that game. In other words, a ton of people would only have one less game (AFC Championship vs Den) to evaluate him and that slight change in his performance would have a great influence on personal rankings.

For God's sake, he even made the tackle that brought Harper down in the very play referenced....

Yes, that is the irony of Borat's original comment. But, to be fair, it had nothing to do with his QB skills. Personally, I'd rank Big Ben as a top 5 LB in the NFL today.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game?  If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more?  Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake. 

Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB.  It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw.  Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times.  His YPA will never be the same as it is now.  Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.

Do you watch games or pay attention to what other people say here? Look at Roethlisberger's first half numbers this season. He is far more productive, meaning that they often get the lead because of his passing and then they run the ball almost the entire second half of games at times. Roethlisberger, however, has shown that when called upon to win games with his arm, he is more than capable. And to compare him to Orton just shows how little you know about football.

Some stats to support this case further :

1st half of games : 94-154 1475 yards 11 TD/4 INT passer rating of 105.8

That's in 12 games. Those numbers, projected over a full game, then times 16 games yields :

251-411 3,934 yards 30 TD 11 INT

He also has a 115.3 rating and a 9.4 ypa when the Steelers are behind (98.6 passer rating and 8.9 ypa overall), so enough of this crap about padding his ypa stats by running play action against stacked fronts when the Steelers are leading.

Yet another . I've been reading these threads/posts going around and around over the past couple of weeks and it's really futile to continue to argue the despite your overwhelming evidence. I will probably get flamed for this but Ben reminds me a lot of Brady in the early years. Guys like Ben/Brady are winners and will do what it takes to make the TEAM win. They don't care if they pass it 12 times or 42 times as long as they get the win. Some people have a real hard time getting beyond the stats. I guess a guy like Aaron Brooks is a better qb since he throws for more yardage, more td's than Roeth.

Thanks, and a right back at you for the end of that paragraph.Personally, it doesn't matter to me either. I don't evaluate a QB on how many attempts he has, I evaluate a QB on how frequently he makes the play needed to win games. That's really all that matters when you get down to the essence of the position. Watching Roethlisberger every week as I do, I see him making those plays over and over again, but I can see how the stats don't necessarily bear that out. I really thought the last 3 weeks, however, that people who aren't Steeler fans would see the same thing, since the games were all on national TV.



I guess people see what they want to see, but ask Colts and Broncos fans what they think and you'll get a different answer than you would have gotten a month ago, I guarantee it (Bengals fans have already seen it).

 

[redman]

I don't see how Brunell is not in tier 3 given the way you grouped things.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.

Enough already with this...Roethlisberger has led this team to the Super Bowl, and that's all that matters.

I think you're helping to make his point. Some don't heap as much praise on a QB based on winning nor heap as much blame for losing as others do. Some say Roth led his team, some say he was along for the ride. And, some say he's really good and simply helped his team win by playing well, but isn't necessarily the main reason they won.

Anyone who has watched this year's playoffs and tells me he's been along for the ride not only knows nothing about football, he should be tied to a tree and shot in the head before he pollutes the gene pool further.

That's nice and I agree, but is irrelevant to what I think Borat's overall point is. He's simply saying that Roth is as high as #2 on some people's list partly because of things that are out of his control as a QB.

I get that, but that argument holds no water as far as I'm concerned. The Steelers have gotten to where they are right now primarily because of him, he's had the MOST control over it.

That's fine and I actually agree that Roth has had much to do with their success. But, I think it still stands true that Roth would be nowhere near #2 on most people's lists had Pitt lost that game. In other words, a ton of people would only have one less game (AFC Championship vs Den) to evaluate him and that slight change in his performance would have a great influence on personal rankings.

For God's sake, he even made the tackle that brought Harper down in the very play referenced....

Yes, that is the irony of Borat's original comment. But, to be fair, it had nothing to do with his QB skills. Personally, I'd rank Big Ben as a top 5 LB in the NFL today.

I got you... I am not sure that was what he meant by the original post; I think he was insinuating that the elevated (in his mind) perception of Roethlisberger is grounded in team success, and that Ben gets more than his share of the credit. I disagree with this. The way you laid it out, it has merit... so if that's what you meant, Borat..... I apologize. And yechzemesh (however you spell it) to you !

 

[BigTex]

And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game?  If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more?  Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake. 

Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB.  It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw.  Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times.  His YPA will never be the same as it is now.  Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.

Do you watch games or pay attention to what other people say here? Look at Roethlisberger's first half numbers this season. He is far more productive, meaning that they often get the lead because of his passing and then they run the ball almost the entire second half of games at times. Roethlisberger, however, has shown that when called upon to win games with his arm, he is more than capable. And to compare him to Orton just shows how little you know about football.

Some stats to support this case further :

1st half of games : 94-154 1475 yards 11 TD/4 INT passer rating of 105.8

That's in 12 games. Those numbers, projected over a full game, then times 16 games yields :

251-411 3,934 yards 30 TD 11 INT

He also has a 115.3 rating and a 9.4 ypa when the Steelers are behind (98.6 passer rating and 8.9 ypa overall), so enough of this crap about padding his ypa stats by running play action against stacked fronts when the Steelers are leading.

I missed something here. In 12 games he performed the following.9 ints/12gms played =.75 x16gms=12INT

20 TDs (including 3 rushing)/12=1.66x16=26.66TD

Yds 2385/12=198.75x16=3180

Still not bad.

 

[-OZ-]

If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.

Enough already with this. No one knows what would have happened if he had taken the play outside...

I think most of us have a pretty good idea.

Sure, let's say Harper scores the TD.Ben would have just marched back down and scored.

 

[munga30]

What's with all the Byron Leftwich love? Intangibles, yes. Arm strength, yes. Other than that, he has yet to show me that he belongs in any third tier I've seen in this thread.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/LeftBy00.htm

 

[Evilgrin 72]

And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game?  If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more?  Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake. 

Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB.  It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw.  Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times.  His YPA will never be the same as it is now.  Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.

Do you watch games or pay attention to what other people say here? Look at Roethlisberger's first half numbers this season. He is far more productive, meaning that they often get the lead because of his passing and then they run the ball almost the entire second half of games at times. Roethlisberger, however, has shown that when called upon to win games with his arm, he is more than capable. And to compare him to Orton just shows how little you know about football.

Some stats to support this case further :

1st half of games : 94-154 1475 yards 11 TD/4 INT passer rating of 105.8

That's in 12 games. Those numbers, projected over a full game, then times 16 games yields :

251-411 3,934 yards 30 TD 11 INT

He also has a 115.3 rating and a 9.4 ypa when the Steelers are behind (98.6 passer rating and 8.9 ypa overall), so enough of this crap about padding his ypa stats by running play action against stacked fronts when the Steelers are leading.

I missed something here. In 12 games he performed the following.9 ints/12gms played =.75 x16gms=12INT

20 TDs (including 3 rushing)/12=1.66x16=26.66TD

Yds 2385/12=198.75x16=3180

Still not bad.

You're projecting his stats over 16 games. I was projecting his first half stats over a full game, then x16 games. Obviously, this doesn't mean much, but it was meant to give people an idea of what Roethlisberger has done when given the attempts. In the second half of most games this year, the Steelers would often run the ball 20 consecutive plays to eat up clock, so it's rare that Roethlisberger actually gets to play 60 minutes in the Steelers regular offense. These numbers are the best estimate of what we might see if he got to throw the ball for 60 minutes each week. The scary thing is, the 3,934 yards would have ranked 3rd in the NFL and the 30 TD passes would have ranked 2nd, while 411 attempts would have only ranked him 18th.

 

[Fumbleweed]

Way too much love in my book for Eli and Leftwich in this thread and not enough for Brunell and Warner. Brunell had 23 TDs this year to 10 INTs while basically having only one serviceable WR. Plus, he has a history of postseason success. Warner had his moments this year, too, even though the team didn't fare all that well. Some of you guys are dumping these guys to the curb just because they're in their 30s. If we're judging on the here and now, guys like Brunell and Warner deserve better......

 

[Assani Fisher]

Um, you just made my argument for me.  You said McNabb has better stats and then pointed out how McNabb plays in an offense where he shoulders more of the load aka throwing the ball more.  Think there is a correlation there?  If you are not sure, I will spell it out for you...McNabb has better numbers than Roethlisberger because he throws the ball a lot more.

I noticed, too, you left out W/L record and yards per attempt when talking about Roethlisberger.

And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game? If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more? Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake. Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB. It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw. Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times. His YPA will never be the same as it is now. Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.

It has already been shown in this thread that this is outright false. The Steelers have been passing the ball a ton early in the game. Then when they get a lead, they just run the clock out. So in other words, its the pass setting up the run, not the other way around, and the opponents know this and do indeed gameplan for it.

 

[Odogs]

Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake. 

And what did Orton do with those attempts, despite having a very capable running attack (only 7 ypg fewer than Pittsburgh, and a higher ypc average) and an even better defense than Pittsburgh?Orton : 5.1 yards per attempt

Roethlisberger : 8.9 yards per attempt

This has nothing to do with Roethlisberger's skill though, right? Why couldn't Orton just run play-action and throw against stacked fronts? Surely, with as lopsided as Chicago's offense was run vs. pass, they MUST have been facing a lot of 8-9 man fronts too....

Quit trying to confuse people with facts.

 

[Sheriff66]

If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.

You're saying that Ben is hyped becuase of the great run the Steelers have made in the playoffs, and if Harper would have returned the ball for a TD, Pittsburgh would have lost. What of the ref doesn't overturn an INT call that was OBVIOUSLY and INT ? Game over, Pittsburgh probably wins by double digets. Ben has stepped up to the plate, he is 23, 26-4 as a starter, has shown that he has all the tools and can bring this team back in the 4th quarter if needed. He is a tier 1 QB in this league already, he doesn't just "manage" the offense, he leads it.

 

[Kevin Ashcraft]

How can a guy with 3 straight 4K yard seasons be so low on the list?EDIT also in the last 4 years his TD-INT is 94-52

 

[fridayfrenzy]

Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake.

And what did Orton do with those attempts, despite having a very capable running attack (only 7 ypg fewer than Pittsburgh, and a higher ypc average) and an even better defense than Pittsburgh?Orton : 5.1 yards per attempt

Roethlisberger : 8.9 yards per attempt

This has nothing to do with Roethlisberger's skill though, right? Why couldn't Orton just run play-action and throw against stacked fronts? Surely, with as lopsided as Chicago's offense was run vs. pass, they MUST have been facing a lot of 8-9 man fronts too....

Quit trying to confuse people with facts.

I never said once that Big Ben was as bad as Orton. I was giving you a reference point for how little he actually throws in a game.Here's another reference point....Eli Manning threw 37 times a game.

If Ben threw 30-40 times a game, do you think he would still have a 8.9 YPA?

 

[fridayfrenzy]

Um, you just made my argument for me. You said McNabb has better stats and then pointed out how McNabb plays in an offense where he shoulders more of the load aka throwing the ball more. Think there is a correlation there? If you are not sure, I will spell it out for you...McNabb has better numbers than Roethlisberger because he throws the ball a lot more.

I noticed, too, you left out W/L record and yards per attempt when talking about Roethlisberger.

And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game? If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more? Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake. Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB. It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw. Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times. His YPA will never be the same as it is now. Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.

It has already been shown in this thread that this is outright false. The Steelers have been passing the ball a ton early in the game. Then when they get a lead, they just run the clock out. So in other words, its the pass setting up the run, not the other way around, and the opponents know this and do indeed gameplan for it.

You don't think Big Ben has the luxury of a great play action in Pitt because of the amount of run plays they call there?He still gets that luxury in the first half because he is in a Pitt uniform.

 

[MarshallRob]

Historically, championship game performances play a critical role in estimating the quality of a QB. Ratings for Roethlisberger and Hasselbeck might be a little different by Sunday Night than they are now.

 

[Death and Taxes]

Vick is still a one trick pony with a running game to bail him out. He has not developed his passing game to the point where he can keep a defense honest. Reminds of the early McNabb and Cunningham Eras. Will make some big plays but a good defense will more than likely shut Vick down in the playoffs at some point. Running around in the NFL to an extreme just does not work if you want to win a champioship. Until he can pass the ball he is just good for marketing #7 jerseys. He is way overrated.

Vick may be a one trick pony but what a trick it is. Since when has winning become overrated?

Vick may win some games during the season and maybe a game in the playoffs but he will and has been shut down in any big games in the playoffs. Remind me again what rushing QB has won the Super Bowl? Or even made it to the Super Bowl. Cannot count Cunningham (actually NFC championship that year he lost) when he was on the Vikings because he was not running at that point and same with McNabb last year.

 

[Colin Dowling]

Vick at #5 is a joke. There's no way I'd want him starting off a new franchise. He's not worth 1/2 the money he's paid right now if you're trying to build a SB caliber team.

He's the guy I'd pick first to start off a new franchise. DO you have any idea how many people pay for tickets, jerseys, merch, etc. because Vick is a Falcon? I assure you, his presence is much more valuable to that franchise than most any other player out there.

 

[Colin Dowling]

If Nick Harper doesn't cut back inside, I have a hard time believing Roethlisberger would be such a popular pick at #2.

One loss all time on the road (AFC title @ NE)...an .850 winning percentage all time....yeah, he'd be up there.

 

[Odogs]

Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake. 

And what did Orton do with those attempts, despite having a very capable running attack (only 7 ypg fewer than Pittsburgh, and a higher ypc average) and an even better defense than Pittsburgh?Orton : 5.1 yards per attempt

Roethlisberger : 8.9 yards per attempt

This has nothing to do with Roethlisberger's skill though, right? Why couldn't Orton just run play-action and throw against stacked fronts? Surely, with as lopsided as Chicago's offense was run vs. pass, they MUST have been facing a lot of 8-9 man fronts too....

Quit trying to confuse people with facts.

I never said once that Big Ben was as bad as Orton. I was giving you a reference point for how little he actually throws in a game.Here's another reference point....Eli Manning threw 37 times a game.

If Ben threw 30-40 times a game, do you think he would still have a 8.9 YPA?

I don't know if he would still have an 8.9 YPA, but he does now. You're the one that brought up Orton and when you compare Ben to him there is no comparison even though both teams have a good running game, very good defense and neither one throws much. Ben is already one of the best QB's in the game, I'm sorry you can't see it. That same old tired "game manager" crap is no longer true. Almost everyone now can see it except for a few of you. I watch every single Steeler game and he is the real deal. Taking everything into consideration, including age, there is no other QB I would rather have right now. There will always be people that no matter how good a player is, they will try to find some reason to bring them down. The same thing happened with Brady. At this point, you're either a hater or just not that good at judging talent.

 

[SaosiN]

top qb's win big games.. i don't care about if someone throws for 35 td and 4,000 yards and someone else barely gets too 3,000 and has like 18-20 tds.. its about winning and not making mistakes to cost your team and Big Ben has been great at that in his first 2 years cept last year in the playoffs so he belongs in #1 or #2 for me.. If he wins the Superbowl #1 for sure.

 

[Spartans Rule]

One thing some people aren't getting about the 8.9 YPA for Roethlisberger is that it's not just a good stat. It's absurdly good.Tom Brady's career best YPA is 7.8. Manning's was 7.8 until last season, when had 9.2, followed up by 8.3 this year.Would Roethlisberger's YPA go down if he had to pass more? If he wasn't protected by a dominant line? Of course it would. But he's got a lot of room to spare.

 

[Chaz McNulty]

top qb's win big games.. i don't care about if someone throws for 35 td and 4,000 yards and someone else barely gets too 3,000 and has like 18-20 tds.. its about winning and not making mistakes to cost your team and Big Ben has been great at that in his first 2 years cept last year in the playoffs so he belongs in #1 or #2 for me.. If he wins the Superbowl #1 for sure.

This thread is bordering on the ridiculous. Last year was 1/2 of his NFL career.

 

[Chaz McNulty]

And the fact that he doesn't throw as much is part of the reason why he isn't a top QB. What #2 ranked QB in the league only throws 22 times a game?  If he is the 2nd best QB in the league, why wouldn't they want the ball in his hands a lot more?  Big Ben threw as many attempts a game than Kyle Orton for pete sake. 

Looking at YPA for Ben is like looking at YPC for a backup RB.  It means nothing to me if they hardly run or throw.  Have Ben play in an offense where the defense is focussed on the passing game and he has to throw 30 times.  His YPA will never be the same as it is now.  Its pretty easy to run all game and then use the play action for a lengthy pass and then credit that YPA to Ben.

Do you watch games or pay attention to what other people say here? Look at Roethlisberger's first half numbers this season. He is far more productive, meaning that they often get the lead because of his passing and then they run the ball almost the entire second half of games at times. Roethlisberger, however, has shown that when called upon to win games with his arm, he is more than capable. And to compare him to Orton just shows how little you know about football.

Some stats to support this case further :

1st half of games : 94-154 1475 yards 11 TD/4 INT passer rating of 105.8

That's in 12 games. Those numbers, projected over a full game, then times 16 games yields :

251-411 3,934 yards 30 TD 11 INT

He also has a 115.3 rating and a 9.4 ypa when the Steelers are behind (98.6 passer rating and 8.9 ypa overall), so enough of this crap about padding his ypa stats by running play action against stacked fronts when the Steelers are leading.

In one breath you say how stats don't matter and it's all about leading your team, and in the next breath you pull a snap shot of stats out that pump your guy up. It seems to me that you only want to look at stats that show how good he is, but you don't want to look at stats that show how underused he is.I bet you if you told all 30 GM's that they could pick any QB they want for one year to lead their team (except for Brady and Manning), hardly any would even consider Big Ben.

I'm not saying that Big Ben might not become a great QB, all I'm saying is it is laughable that many consider him to be even or better than Manning or Brady right now. This whole thread is oozing of homerism.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

In one breath you say how stats don't matter and it's all about leading your team, and in the next breath you pull a snap shot of stats out that pump your guy up. It seems to me that you only want to look at stats that show how good he is, but you don't want to look at stats that show how underused he is.

I bet you if you told all 30 GM's that they could pick any QB they want for one year to lead their team (except for Brady and Manning), hardly any would even consider Big Ben.

I'm not saying that Big Ben might not become a great QB, all I'm saying is it is laughable that many consider him to be even or better than Manning or Brady right now. This whole thread is oozing of homerism.