RB Derrick Henry, BAL (1 Viewer)

[Bri]

Interviews at owners meeting

Vrabel was pretty crystal clear explaining that Henry was the first and second down back and Lewis is the third down and yardage back.

When he was pressed, yes he made the waters a little muddy but if you watch the videos you gotta drink in the question and pretend you're him.

Could Lewis get 20 carries? Sure but Henry could get 25 or 30. (hold onto this 30 a sec)

He explained that they're different types of backs and Henry is a load to tackle. 

pressed more

We want players that are a load to tackle. I mean that's the game

more about Lewis

Yes he's difficult to tackle and has some ability, that's why we signed him. We're excited to have both of them.

More back N forth...then he said something like "Do you know what it means for a back to get 30 carries in a game in the NFL? That is my goal for Derrick and any back. I plan to coach a long time. 30 carries is a big performance, dominant. 30 carries means the quarterback is at ease and we might need to watch his nerves. 30 carries means the offensive line is in tune. No one ever gets 30 carries. We would love to have Derrick get 30 carries."

I thought you said share the load, both backs blah blah blah; Vrabel looks frustrated, looks around, and the topic changes to DL

Lewis as the lead back is NOT there. That is NOT the plan. I could absolutely nitpick and snip parts of his speech and write an article supporting Lewis. (Some have already!) He did not say that and it's out of context. He ultimately got annoyed as if reporters were twisting and trying to make Lewis the featured back with words.

 

[menobrown]

Interviews at owners meeting

Vrabel was pretty crystal clear explaining that Henry was the first and second down back and Lewis is the third down and yardage back.

When he was pressed, yes he made the waters a little muddy but if you watch the videos you gotta drink in the question and pretend you're him.

Could Lewis get 20 carries? Sure but Henry could get 25 or 30. (hold onto this 30 a sec)

He explained that they're different types of backs and Henry is a load to tackle. 

pressed more

We want players that are a load to tackle. I mean that's the game

more about Lewis

Yes he's difficult to tackle and has some ability, that's why we signed him. We're excited to have both of them.

More back N forth...then he said something like "Do you know what it means for a back to get 30 carries in a game in the NFL? That is my goal for Derrick and any back. I plan to coach a long time. 30 carries is a big performance, dominant. 30 carries means the quarterback is at ease and we might need to watch his nerves. 30 carries means the offensive line is in tune. No one ever gets 30 carries. We would love to have Derrick get 30 carries."

I thought you said share the load, both backs blah blah blah; Vrabel looks frustrated, looks around, and the topic changes to DL

Lewis as the lead back is NOT there. That is NOT the plan. I could absolutely nitpick and snip parts of his speech and write an article supporting Lewis. (Some have already!) He did not say that and it's out of context. He ultimately got annoyed as if reporters were twisting and trying to make Lewis the featured back with words.

For sure nothing they said indicates Lewis is the lead back. Also nothing they have said indicates Henry is either.

 

[flapgreen]

Bum

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Interviews at owners meeting

Vrabel was pretty crystal clear explaining that Henry was the first and second down back and Lewis is the third down and yardage back.

When he was pressed, yes he made the waters a little muddy but if you watch the videos you gotta drink in the question and pretend you're him.

Could Lewis get 20 carries? Sure but Henry could get 25 or 30. (hold onto this 30 a sec)

He explained that they're different types of backs and Henry is a load to tackle. 

pressed more

We want players that are a load to tackle. I mean that's the game

more about Lewis

Yes he's difficult to tackle and has some ability, that's why we signed him. We're excited to have both of them.

More back N forth...then he said something like "Do you know what it means for a back to get 30 carries in a game in the NFL? That is my goal for Derrick and any back. I plan to coach a long time. 30 carries is a big performance, dominant. 30 carries means the quarterback is at ease and we might need to watch his nerves. 30 carries means the offensive line is in tune. No one ever gets 30 carries. We would love to have Derrick get 30 carries."

I thought you said share the load, both backs blah blah blah; Vrabel looks frustrated, looks around, and the topic changes to DL

Lewis as the lead back is NOT there. That is NOT the plan. I could absolutely nitpick and snip parts of his speech and write an article supporting Lewis. (Some have already!) He did not say that and it's out of context. He ultimately got annoyed as if reporters were twisting and trying to make Lewis the featured back with words.

"Dion can make people miss. He can kind of get lost in the wash up in there and squirt out, and be good out of the backfield. … How the pace of the game is going, how the style of the game, how the defense is playing us (will determine when which player is on the field).

"We think we have two really different backs, but two really good backs - two starting level backs."

From the Tennessean 1 day ago

 

[bostonfred]

That interview makes me feel a lot better about Henry compared with the cosell speculation. 

"In my mind, we've got a big running back. We've got a big first- and second-down back," Vrabel said of Henry. "Dion provides a different body type, a different playing style. So how the two will complement each other, I'm not really sure. But I know that one's got a certain skill set and another body type and one is a little smaller, probably a little quicker, and has a different running style...

Dion has been in a position where there's been other guys, and he's been a great teammate. In some games he may have a bigger role, and in other games he may have a lesser role. But we're comfortable with those two guys going in."

http://m.titansonline.com/news/article-4/Titans-Discuss-Plans-for-RBs-Derrick-Henry-Dion-Lewis/d01250b2-1165-4b1c-a7d2-02e48b691526

That's about as clear as you're going to get.  Henry is the main first and second down guy, Lewis is a third down/CoP  guy who could get a lot more early down touches against certain types of defense.  Like every team ever they seem to envision themselves running the football a lot during the off season but when the bullets are flying I think the titans are still on the high end of the NFL in terms of rb touches and I think Henry ends up with comfortably more carries and touches than Lewis.  

 

[Bri]

For sure nothing they said indicates Lewis is the lead back. Also nothing they have said indicates Henry is either.

Calling a guy the first and second down back? Hoping he gets thirty carries...that's lead back.

Is it Emmitt Smith getting 90 some odd percent of the carries, no but lead back is both determined and been that way for months. Similar was said when Murray was there. It does and it doesn't matter.

Unless you're a Lewis owner with "there's still hope" mindset, then ya gotta admit he explained who the lead back is

 

[Snorkelson]

Calling a guy the first and second down back? Hoping he gets thirty carries...that's lead back.

Is it Emmitt Smith getting 90 some odd percent of the carries, no but lead back is both determined and been that way for months. Similar was said when Murray was there. It does and it doesn't matter.

Unless you're a Lewis owner with "there's still hope" mindset, then ya gotta admit he explained who the lead back is

Of course he hopes any rb gets 30’carries, it means theyre winning. I think he’s being pretty clear- they will share the load somewhat, henry getting the bulk of the carries and Lewis getting the bulk of receiving work. Game script will dictate somewhat. The reporter wants him to name a player so he can make a headline to click. He tries to explain how he views each of them, maybe he should have just said the word “committee” so they have a clear picture. 

 

[Tool]

Of course he hopes any rb gets 30’carries, it means theyre winning. I think he’s being pretty clear- they will share the load somewhat, henry getting the bulk of the carries and Lewis getting the bulk of receiving work. Game script will dictate somewhat. The reporter wants him to name a player so he can make a headline to click. He tries to explain how he views each of them, maybe he should have just said the word “committee” so they have a clear picture. 

I don’t necessarily see Henry getting bulk of carries. I do think it will game script dependent (Vrabel did play and coach for Belichick). Both guys will have value.

 

[Bojang0301]

So everyone wanted Mularky out because he’s an old school dunderhead that doesn’t know what an efficient modern NFL offense looks like and now you think that Vrabel believes in “third down backs”. I call bull ####. It is far more efficient to throw to RB’s on first and second down and extremely inefficient to throw to them on third down. The OC is a Shanahan disciple and Atlanta’s offense, as well as San Fran’s offense thrived on RB’s running routes early and often. Henry is in a bad spot no matter what lip service is paid. Best case scenario is a hyper athletic version of Blount two years ago.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

That interview makes me feel a lot better about Henry compared with the cosell speculation. 

"In my mind, we've got a big running back. We've got a big first- and second-down back," Vrabel said of Henry. "Dion provides a different body type, a different playing style. So how the two will complement each other, I'm not really sure. But I know that one's got a certain skill set and another body type and one is a little smaller, probably a little quicker, and has a different running style...

Dion has been in a position where there's been other guys, and he's been a great teammate. In some games he may have a bigger role, and in other games he may have a lesser role. But we're comfortable with those two guys going in."

http://m.titansonline.com/news/article-4/Titans-Discuss-Plans-for-RBs-Derrick-Henry-Dion-Lewis/d01250b2-1165-4b1c-a7d2-02e48b691526

That's about as clear as you're going to get.  Henry is the main first and second down guy, Lewis is a third down/CoP  guy who could get a lot more early down touches against certain types of defense.  Like every team ever they seem to envision themselves running the football a lot during the off season but when the bullets are flying I think the titans are still on the high end of the NFL in terms of rb touches and I think Henry ends up with comfortably more carries and touches than Lewis.  

I agree with your first sentence 100%.   

The rest......is you cherry picking quotes and ignoring quotes from Jon Robinson.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I think everyone is trying to define roles here but what you have is two quality RBs both capable of being a lead back on a game to game basis...Henry has a chance to be a good one but Lewis is not simply a third down back nor is he getting paid like one...I think the Titans have a very good "real" football backfield right now but I do think fantasy-wise it became far murkier than it was prior to this signing...

I think what we're seeing is Lewis owners arguing against Henry owners as to who the lead back will be while ignoring the elephant in the room. This is now a RBBC and while both should still be capable of being RB2s by season's end the week to week consistency may be a bit rough.

 

[bostonfred]

I agree with your first sentence 100%.   

The rest......is you cherry picking quotes and ignoring quotes from Jon Robinson.

What did you get from the Robinson quotes that you think I ignored or cherry picked out of there? Did I miss other quotes or were there other quotes that didn't appear in the article I linked? 

Are you referring to this? 

"We think we have two really different backs, but two really good backs - two starting level backs."

That is talking about their skill level but not their usage.  Are you talking about this? 

"How the pace of the game is going, how the style of the game, how the defense is playing us (will determine when which player is on the field)."

That's talking about their usage, but doesn't indicate when each will be on the field. 

But this quote from vrabel explicitly talks about how they will be used:

"In my mind, we've got a big running back. We've got a big first- and second-down back," Vrabel said of Henry.

And this quote about Dion seems pretty clear. 

"Dion has been in a position where there's been other guys, and he's been a great teammate. In some games he may have a bigger role, and in other games he may have a lesser role."

I read from that that Lewis is the "second" guy - otherwise why talk about other guys, or that he's a great teammate, or that he may have games where he has a lesser role? 

That's what I get out of it. What did you see? 

 

[jtd13]

Best case scenario is a hyper athletic version of Blount two years ago.




2

Is that bad? A more athletic Blount seems like a good thing. 

The OC is a Shanahan disciple and Atlanta’s offense, as well as San Fran’s offense thrived on RB’s running routes early and often. 




1

Atlanta's offense thrives throwing to RBs because they have a fantastic receiving back as their best RB. SFs offense didn't do much thriving last year, but when they did improve with JG in, they barely threw to Hyde and Breida. Hyde caught 7 passes against Seattle when they couldn't get the running game going, but in all the other games with JG, they never had more than 4 catches combined. And the game where Hyde caught 7 passes was their worst offensive game with JG in. 

Shannahan has actually been pretty good at working with the RB talent he has. Guys like Morris and Crowell also had success in his offense, and I think Henry is at least as good a receiver as those 2. Not sure how that will translate to the current OC though. 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

What did you get from the Robinson quotes that you think I ignored or cherry picked out of there? Did I miss other quotes or were there other quotes that didn't appear in the article I linked? 

Are you referring to this? 

"We think we have two really different backs, but two really good backs - two starting level backs."

That is talking about their skill level but not their usage.  Are you talking about this? 

"How the pace of the game is going, how the style of the game, how the defense is playing us (will determine when which player is on the field)."

That's talking about their usage, but doesn't indicate when each will be on the field. 

But this quote from vrabel explicitly talks about how they will be used:

"In my mind, we've got a big running back. We've got a big first- and second-down back," Vrabel said of Henry.

And this quote about Dion seems pretty clear. 

"Dion has been in a position where there's been other guys, and he's been a great teammate. In some games he may have a bigger role, and in other games he may have a lesser role."

I read from that that Lewis is the "second" guy - otherwise why talk about other guys, or that he's a great teammate, or that he may have games where he has a lesser role? 

That's what I get out of it. What did you see? 

Look, I'm not a guy who has been in here arguing that Lewis is the starter.  Ok?  Just to make the context really clear.

What I see, on balance, is a whole lot of words that add up to RBBC.  Henry is obviously going to get more early down work and goal line work.  Lewis will clearly get more passing work.  But this will be close to a 50-50 split in terms of touches, with a huge variance from week to week.

Vrabel is a defensive coach, so I don't really know that his comments matter as much as the GM's comments.  If anything, the quotes from him tell me either a) he is giving us coach speak, or b) he's an idiot who doesn't understand a modern offense.

One area that has been misrepresented is Vrabel suggesting he wants Henry to get 30 touches per game.  If you read Robinson's comments on game flow, it is clear that they would love to see Tennessee winning every game, and Henry getting the ball 30 times to close out games where they are steamrolling.  Who wouldn't want that, as a coach?   But it doesn't mean that Henry will get 30 carries every game and Lewis will only catch passes.

Anyway, unlike many in here, I see Henry getting more work on average most weeks, with a handful of weeks where Lewis catches a ton of passes and they are playing from behind a lot.

 

[menobrown]

Calling a guy the first and second down back?

When you say we have a big first and second down back that is actually not saying he is our first and second down back. He's just saying he's got the size of a prototypical two down RB.

 

[bostonfred]

Look, I'm not a guy who has been in here arguing that Lewis is the starter.  Ok?  Just to make the context really clear.

I was responding specifically to you saying this

I agree with your first sentence 100%.   

The rest......is you cherry picking quotes and ignoring quotes from Jon Robinson

But when I listed them you didn't seem to have an opinion on them. 

And then you mention this

One area that has been misrepresented is Vrabel suggesting he wants Henry to get 30 touches per game.  If you read Robinson's comments on game flow, it is clear that they would love to see Tennessee winning every game, and Henry getting the ball 30 times to close out games where they are steamrolling.  Who wouldn't want that, as a coach?   But it doesn't mean that Henry will get 30 carries every game and Lewis will only catch passes.

Again, i agree completely, but I didn't mention any of that, because I agree completely. 

I thought you said I was cherry picking and ignoring things because I'd missed something important. Or maybe you just chose argumentative language because you disagreed with what I was saying. But it seems like you actually agree with me almost completely, so now I'm totally confused. Why did you come out guns a blazin?

 

[jtd13]

Anyway, unlike many in here, I see Henry getting more work on average most weeks, with a handful of weeks where Lewis catches a ton of passes and they are playing from behind a lot.




 

This is how I see it as well. I didn't have any illusions of the Titans rolling into 2018 with only Muhammed and Fluellen behind Henry in the backfield, so I wasn't surprised or bummed by them signing Lewis. I figured Lewis and McKinnon would be their primary targets since they can carry the load if need be and offer more in the passing game than Henry. So I see Henry about the same as I have since the end of last season: a pretty good RB2 with TD upside and not much of a floor in PPR. I was probably more bummed for my Lewis shares by the signing because I thought he might go somewhere with a little more predictable usage. 

In hindsight, I guess I should have been offering Henry around when Murray was cut. I assumed my leaguemates knew another shoe was going to drop, but based on the reactions here and texts I have received, they thought he was going to get a Gurley-like workload or something.

 

[Snorkelson]

I have no stock in henry or Lewis. So here are my opinions, for whatever it’s worth. I’m not going to quote the other side of the arguements, I think it’s been covered.

1. Henry can also catch a ball. So they can throw on 1-2 down, and Lewis may be in there occasionally, and Henry may be in on a 3rd down and catch a pass too. Assuming both are healthy, Lewis>Henry in catches. But Henry will catch some balls too. 

2. Lewis hasn’t had a big workload, runs well between the tackles for a smaller back, but isn’t going to avg 15 carries a game. If he does I doubt he makes it through the season. Henry will be the guy wearing the defense down. Henry>Lewis in carries.

3. Henry will get the short ydg tds, but Lewis may get red zone use outside the 5. Mariota will likely bootleg or sneak a couple in. Tds is slight lean to Henry but could see the td totals similar. 

4. Coaches are pretty clear both guys will get work. Different skill sets but like both guys. Spent on Lewis but invested draft capital in Henry. 

Previous coaching spots can provide some insight, but saying Lewis is more like freeman so that’s what to expect from him is a bit of a reach. If the coaches are smart they find ways to use the guys they have to their strengths. Now if you want to argue that Lewis is suited for a zone blocking one cut scheme and Henry is ill suited maybe there’s a case.

 

[bostonfred]

Now if you want to argue that Lewis is suited for a zone blocking one cut scheme and Henry is ill suited maybe there’s a case.

That's what they used at Alabama when Henry won the Heisman 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I was responding specifically to you saying this

But when I listed them you didn't seem to have an opinion on them. 

And then you mention this

Again, i agree completely, but I didn't mention any of that, because I agree completely. 

I thought you said I was cherry picking and ignoring things because I'd missed something important. Or maybe you just chose argumentative language because you disagreed with what I was saying. But it seems like you actually agree with me almost completely, so now I'm totally confused. Why did you come out guns a blazin?

Probably just me reading quickly when I'm supposed to be listening to boring work people drone on, and then reacting poorly. ?

Either way, sounds like we agree more than not.  I perceived you basically arguing that Henry will get massively more touches than Lewis.  My bad.  Enjoyed the discussion either way.

 

[Snorkelson]

That's what they used at Alabama when Henry won the Heisman 

I’m not trying to make that argument, just saying this is rbbc and unless there are some better arguements it’s a rbbc. 

 

[menobrown]

I think what we're seeing is Lewis owners arguing against Henry owners as to who the lead back will be while ignoring the elephant in the room. This is now a RBBC and while both should still be capable of being RB2s by season's end the week to week consistency may be a bit rough.

I do feel like most Henry/Lewis owners are arguing on who will be the lead back.  Most, not all. I'm a Lewis owner and would never argue the plan is for him to have more touches then Henry.  Often things don't go like you planned but in no way would I think that right now inside the Titans offices this off-season there is talk or a a plan to make Dion some kind of bell cow primary rusher.  I'd anticipate Lewis gets more receptions and closes gap on Henry in terms of total touches in that department but if everyone is healthy this Lewis owner is not going to argue he's going to out carry Henry. Out touch him some weeks? Maybe, but not the plan.

It's a RBBC and if anyone is arguing against that they are blinded by rooting interest.  But so much remains unknown. Will the fantasy success of this RBBC look like Kamara/Ingram, Freeman/Coleman, Gio/Hill, Crow/Duke? Some of those RBBC' have two studs, some have one clear cut fantasy starter, some two solid RB2-3 type options but and some so muddled with such poor overall production you just don't use want to use any of them, like a 2016 Ivory/Yeldon duo.  RBBC's can go in a lot of different directions but the reason in I like Dion to outscore him in fantasy when both are healthy is that in most RBBC's the guy who catches the most passes is the leading PPR fantasy producer, even when they often  are not receiving the most touches.

 

[Bri]

So everyone wanted Mularky out because he’s an old school dunderhead that doesn’t know what an efficient modern NFL offense looks like and now you think that Vrabel believes in “third down backs”. I call bull ####. It is far more efficient to throw to RB’s on first and second down and extremely inefficient to throw to them on third down. The OC is a Shanahan disciple and Atlanta’s offense, as well as San Fran’s offense thrived on RB’s running routes early and often. Henry is in a bad spot no matter what lip service is paid. Best case scenario is a hyper athletic version of Blount two years ago.

We did this already earlier in the thread.

Lewis has never had the season people are implying. He either got hurt or was a part time guy. You won't find some 400 carry season from him at PFR. He was extremely effective doing certain things at certain times in NE. He was not ADP or Emmitt or even Dillon.

Henry is not just some shmoo. He's a former Heisman winner that was enormous and somehow got bigger. He got his degree too, fwiw. He needed to improve receiving and pass pro and he has done both. He lined up as a wide receiver many times last season even. This is not just a next man up scenario. This is a young guy that has done everything asked of him that has earned his chance. He's not Bam Morris or Brandon Jacobs. Many in here "haven't seen him play." The guy's got some athleticism to him.

LaFleur was a QB coach for one year in a Kyle Shanahan offense while Shanahan reportedly led most QB only meetings. He was an OC in McVay's offense for one year and not allowed to call plays and McVay led most discussions and script writing, play scheming. When he was hired there were plenty of detractors. Many don't feel he paid his dues at all. The Titans do not have similar talent to the Rams or the Falcons. Despite his lack of actual expected experience, even if you wanted to project a duplicate offense it would never mesh. I have explained many differences in their talent but most of all Goff was a poor thinker so they implemented a quick strike no think offense and he thrived. Mariota is cerebral and even a perfectionist. He's far more athletic. They're quite different players.

Vrabel has said he doesn't know any offensive plays with a smile a few times. Around the league, he's getting a lot of flack for being a defensive grunt and teasing. The offense will be a combination of the Bills(Cowher, Parcells and Belichick) offenses, McVay's and whatever meshes best with personnel. They were watching film to also discuss what worked with the previous regime. They are starting fresh and have said as such several times already. It is not McVay part II.

He has discussed the FB spot, the TE spot, and Lewan. He loves Lewan already. The Titans averaged more yards per carry running behind Lewan than any other team running in any direction. I forget exact but I think 10 or 11 yards per carry. When Vrabel rambles on about Lewan's fight and fire and...there is no way you get "pretty offense" out of what he says. Add in his comments about the Bus in Pittsburgh and how he played FB and you get an idea. Have you seen him talk about Henry? His eyes couldn't light up more knowing that Eddie George has been helping him develop and training with him. 

You're off base here. Just out of the loop on offseason news is all. It's going to be a mesh and we're going to have to see what the result is.

Whether it's Lewis himself, Kevin Faulk, Leon Johnson, or David Meggett you can discard a third down back from any other team as minimal. You "can't" from a guy that adores BB and seems to be a history buff on Parcells and the whole tree. Also, maybe you missed that Romeo Crennel was his mentor last year. His advisor in Houston is also from that tree.

Also, since it recently came out, Jon Robinson is involved in the scheme this year for the first time. There's another Pats guy that adores BB. His role will be minimal but he wants to be an observer since it will help him acquire the right talent. He'd rather be there than get info second hand. 

 

[Boston]

If Vrabel is a BB disciple that means you will have no idea from week to week how the RBs will be used...since Corey Dillon in 04/05 that has pretty much been the MO for Patriot RBs...

 

[Bojang0301]

We did this already earlier in the thread.

Lewis has never had the season people are implying. He either got hurt or was a part time guy. You won't find some 400 carry season from him at PFR. He was extremely effective doing certain things at certain times in NE. He was not ADP or Emmitt or even Dillon.

Henry is not just some shmoo. He's a former Heisman winner that was enormous and somehow got bigger. He got his degree too, fwiw. He needed to improve receiving and pass pro and he has done both. He lined up as a wide receiver many times last season even. This is not just a next man up scenario. This is a young guy that has done everything asked of him that has earned his chance. He's not Bam Morris or Brandon Jacobs. Many in here "haven't seen him play." The guy's got some athleticism to him.

LaFleur was a QB coach for one year in a Kyle Shanahan offense while Shanahan reportedly led most QB only meetings. He was an OC in McVay's offense for one year and not allowed to call plays and McVay led most discussions and script writing, play scheming. When he was hired there were plenty of detractors. Many don't feel he paid his dues at all. The Titans do not have similar talent to the Rams or the Falcons. Despite his lack of actual expected experience, even if you wanted to project a duplicate offense it would never mesh. I have explained many differences in their talent but most of all Goff was a poor thinker so they implemented a quick strike no think offense and he thrived. Mariota is cerebral and even a perfectionist. He's far more athletic. They're quite different players.

Vrabel has said he doesn't know any offensive plays with a smile a few times. Around the league, he's getting a lot of flack for being a defensive grunt and teasing. The offense will be a combination of the Bills(Cowher, Parcells and Belichick) offenses, McVay's and whatever meshes best with personnel. They were watching film to also discuss what worked with the previous regime. They are starting fresh and have said as such several times already. It is not McVay part II.

He has discussed the FB spot, the TE spot, and Lewan. He loves Lewan already. The Titans averaged more yards per carry running behind Lewan than any other team running in any direction. I forget exact but I think 10 or 11 yards per carry. When Vrabel rambles on about Lewan's fight and fire and...there is no way you get "pretty offense" out of what he says. Add in his comments about the Bus in Pittsburgh and how he played FB and you get an idea. Have you seen him talk about Henry? His eyes couldn't light up more knowing that Eddie George has been helping him develop and training with him. 

You're off base here. Just out of the loop on offseason news is all. It's going to be a mesh and we're going to have to see what the result is.

Whether it's Lewis himself, Kevin Faulk, Leon Johnson, or David Meggett you can discard a third down back from any other team as minimal. You "can't" from a guy that adores BB and seems to be a history buff on Parcells and the whole tree. Also, maybe you missed that Romeo Crennel was his mentor last year. His advisor in Houston is also from that tree.

Also, since it recently came out, Jon Robinson is involved in the scheme this year for the first time. There's another Pats guy that adores BB. His role will be minimal but he wants to be an observer since it will help him acquire the right talent. He'd rather be there than get info second hand. 

No, you’re being ignorant to think this is black and white. This is not 1982. Lewis will be in on 1st and 2nd as much as Henry is.

 

[Bojang0301]

And I certainly am not denying Henry’s athleticism. If anything I troll around these boards advocating for the highest metrics of athleticism. Henry can not catch though. Every metric points to that as does his non growth. Lewis’ versatility will play in the offense that uses RB route trees to move the ball. Henry won’t be apart of that. He will rarely be a 15-20 carry back this year and that leaves him in a bad spot where you are hoping Mariota doesn’t eat his GL touches.

 

[Bojang0301]

The Shanahan Offense in a nut shell

 

[bostonfred]

Henry can not catch though. Every metric points to that as does his non growth. 

That's just not true. 

DERRICK HENRY, PASS CATCHER?

“I think he’s been impressive, especially with the one-on-ones. He’s a very good route runner. ... He’s very patient, getting the depths he’s supposed to be getting at, beating guys that are cover guys, so I’ve been pretty impressed with him.” — Titans coach Mike Mularkey, via The Tennessean.

Henry put some of those fears to rest at Alabama’s pro day, where he ran receiver drills to much acclaim.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2016/06/13/nfl-rumors-derrick-henry-tennessee-titans-justin-hardy-atlanta-falcons

https://youtu.be/bnD2uBs7N9Q vs Vikings

https://youtu.be/UOWCZNt2XRE vs jaguars

https://youtu.be/cRuTY5LEFIw sugar bowl

He's a very good receiver, and one of the best ways they could use him is as a pass catcher because he's best when he gets the ball at full speed. 

Everyone assures Lewis is a great receiver and Henry is a bad one because Lewis is little and good and Henry is big. But Henry averages over 11 yards a catch over pretty much any sample size you choose, while Lewis has been a decent but unspectacular pass catcher who started the season third on his depth chart and doesn't have a 40 catch season to his name.  

I have no doubt Lewis is a better option as a receiver, and I don't expect the titans to split Henry out wide although I do think they could. Henry's receiving is not a weakness.

 

[Boston]

If Mularkey liked him as a receiver did he explain why he only gave him 32 total targets over a 2-year period?  Post-injury I was never a big fan of how Lewis was used in the passing game with the Pats...always felt choppy/inconsistent but when it comes to the Pats and RBs that kind of comes with the turf...before the injury in 2015 he was a real threat in the passing game...in fairness prior to the injury James White was a non-factor so that was probably a part of this as well...I really like this backfield for "real" football and think both will have fantasy impact but I am in no rush to be part of it...especially when you add in the fact that Mariotta is no slouch when it comes to running the ball as well...

 

[sheerterror]

I'd actually rather have Lewis.  I know he's going to be catching about 5 passes per game.  I know he will carry the ball at least 7 times.  That's a minimum of 12 touches per game and all this will happen no matter what the game script is.  If they get out to a huge lead, they will bench Henry...more carries for Lewis.  If they get behind, Lewis is now a virtual 3 down back.  Henry will be drafted ahead of Lewis in virtually every league no matter the scoring system.  Henry is being drafted with an ADP of 36.  Lewis has an ADP of 92.  That's enormous.  I'll take Lewis every day of the week in PPR.

So if the Titans are winning, Henry to the bench.  If the Titans are losing, Henry to the bench.  Am I reading this right?

 

[Bri]

No, you’re being ignorant to think this is black and white. This is not 1982. Lewis will be in on 1st and 2nd as much as Henry is.

How did I say it was black N white? I explained a mesh of systems and wait n see. You're the one thinking it's Shanahan part II

 

[Alex P Keaton]

How did I say it was black N white? I explained a mesh of systems and wait n see. You're the one thinking it's Shanahan part II

Both of you are speculating

 

[bostonfred]

If Mularkey liked him as a receiver did he explain why he only gave him 32 total targets over a 2-year period?  

Yes. He named Murray the starter.  When Murray got hurt, Henry had 6 catches for 122 yards and a touchdown in two playoff games and a must win game vs Jacksonville. 

 

[Bri]

(on running back DeMarco Murray taking more snaps in the last two games than running back Derrick Henry)

Just how the game has unfolded and played out, especially with a no-huddle situation.

(on how they weigh not wanting the Rams offense to be on the field with knowing they'll have to put up points)

Offensively, third downs are going to be important in this game, convert third downs. We've got to make first downs on first and second down. We've got to be able to control the ball to control the clock, that'll be a big factor. That's as much of a defense as your defense is, is controlling the football.

(on if Derrick Henry gives him enough in the passing game to be on the field for more snaps)

He does, yeah. I've said it before, both those guys are very good out of the backfield.

http://www.titansonline.com/news/article-4/Coach-Mularkeys-Wednesday-Practice-Transcript/d9e6dfa3-6343-4c25-a2f7-ca3875d7b2f8

 

[Boston]

Yes. He named Murray the starter.  When Murray got hurt, Henry had 6 catches for 122 yards and a touchdown in two playoff games and a must win game vs Jacksonville. 

Confused...I noticed in 2017 (regular season) that in games where Henry had double digit carries (there were 8) he had a total of 12 targets (he only had 2 for 1 reception in that Jax game)...are you saying with Lewis here that trend will change because of his playoff performance?

 

[bostonfred]

Another point-  Mularkey used Henry as a four minute back at the end of the half and the game. 

He has 285 carries for 69 first downs. In the fourth quarter, with less than four minutes left and when winning, Henry ran for 35/255/2, with 0 receptions. Which makes sense - you don't throw the ball to your running back when you're running out the clock with a lead.

I don't have the splits for second quarter, but he had 82 and 89 carries in the second and fourth quarters compared with 54 and 60 in the first and third, and empirically he played a similar role helping to manage the clock in the final possession of the first half.  

So call it 215 "normal" career carries with 24 receptions in a backup role, and it's not like they shied away from using him in the passing game.  

Stats https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HenrDe00/splits/

 

[bostonfred]

Confused...I noticed in 2017 (regular season) that in games where Henry had double digit carries (there were 8) he had a total of 12 targets.

In 2017 he had 21 of his 176 fourth quarter carries under four minutes with no receptions in his four minute back role.  It stands to reason that a large proportion of his games with double digit carries included those dead carries, but I don't have those splits. I'm using pro football reference.

I do know that as a backup running back he averaged about a target per game (23 catches on 30 targets in 31 games)  and as a starting running back he had 6 catches on 8 targets in 3 games. That extrapolates to 30 catches on 40 targets over 15 games. In 15 games Murray had 39 receptions on 47 targets.

So Henry was used roughly similarly to how Murray was used when he was the starter - it's a small sample size, but he clearly got more targets when he started. 

That doesn't mean he'll get 100 targets this year.  Even if Lewis gets hurt in the pre season you're still looking at 2 to 3 catches a game, max.  But it's realistic to think that Henry will get 25+ receptions as a starter, and that's meaningful when he has over 11 yards per reception in his career.  He's not a ppr monster but he's not totally touchdown dependent, either. 

 

[Boston]

In 2017 he had 21 of his 176 fourth quarter carries under four minutes with no receptions in his four minute back role.  It stands to reason that a large proportion of his games with double digit carries included those dead carries, but I don't have those splits. I'm using pro football reference.

I do know that as a backup running back he averaged about a target per game (23 catches on 30 targets in 31 games)  and as a starting running back he had 6 catches on 8 targets in 3 games. That extrapolates to 30 catches on 40 targets over 15 games. In 15 games Murray had 39 receptions on 47 targets.

So Henry was used roughly similarly to how Murray was used when he was the starter - it's a small sample size, but he clearly got more targets when he started. 

That doesn't mean he'll get 100 targets this year.  Even if Lewis gets hurt in the pre season you're still looking at 2 to 3 catches a game, max.  But it's realistic to think that Henry will get 25+ receptions as a starter, and that's meaningful when he has over 11 yards per reception in his career.  He's not a ppr monster but he's not totally touchdown dependent, either. 

I don't really disagree with that...overall as I said before I see this as a RBBC...2 real good backs who will help the Titans a lot in real football but their presence together will not help their respective owners...if this is not an RBBC than the amount of $ they spend on Lewis is not $ spent wisely...

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Can we all just agree that the evidence suggests Henry appears, at a minimum, to be a solid receiving back?   Then we can move on to continue arguing about who the lead back is......

 

[bostonfred]

Can we all just agree that the evidence suggests Henry appears, at a minimum, to be a solid receiving back?   Then we can move on to continue arguing about who the lead back is......

Last two years the titans averaged 392 carries and 59 rb receptions, so using 400 and 60 as a rough starting point, I think a reasonable projection right now would be

Henry 240/1000/10 with 25/250 receiving

Lewis 160/750/5 with 35/250 receiving

I think a hardcore Lewis believer might see that closer to 220/180 and a few more catches for Lewis, but we're really talking semantics at that point.  

 

[Bojang0301]

Last two years the titans averaged 392 carries and 59 rb receptions, so using 400 and 60 as a rough starting point, I think a reasonable projection right now would be

Henry 240/1000/10 with 25/250 receiving

Lewis 160/750/5 with 35/250 receiving

I think a hardcore Lewis believer might see that closer to 220/180 and a few more catches for Lewis, but we're really talking semantics at that point.  

I don’t necessarily have a problem with this projection. I would skew it more toward Lewis and less receptions with Henry. Also I would factor in about 60 Mariota carries which will eat into the total if you believe 490-500 carries is realistic (which I think that it is). Seems that those defending Henry aren’t that far out of line with my expectations. Mid-tier RB2, probably high volatility and heavily TD dependent. Just don’t forget that Mariota is a highly efficient runner and passer in the red zone. I would peg Henry more toward 6-8 TD’s and hope that he receives favoritism and luck during the season. 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Last two years the titans averaged 392 carries and 59 rb receptions, so using 400 and 60 as a rough starting point, I think a reasonable projection right now would be

Henry 240/1000/10 with 25/250 receiving

Lewis 160/750/5 with 35/250 receiving

I think a hardcore Lewis believer might see that closer to 220/180 and a few more catches for Lewis, but we're really talking semantics at that point.  

Seems very reasonable

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I don’t necessarily have a problem with this projection. I would skew it more toward Lewis and less receptions with Henry. Also I would factor in about 60 Mariota carries which will eat into the total if you believe 490-500 carries is realistic (which I think that it is). Seems that those defending Henry aren’t that far out of line with my expectations. Mid-tier RB2, probably high volatility and heavily TD dependent. Just don’t forget that Mariota is a highly efficient runner and passer in the red zone. I would peg Henry more toward 6-8 TD’s and hope that he receives favoritism and luck during the season. 

I'm not sure about Mariota carrying it 4 times per game.  Hopefully - as long as this coaching staff is less idiotic than the previous staff.

 

[Bojang0301]

So I did a little quick math in my assumption of Shanahan-esk offense giving a 52/48 carry split to Henry and an 85%/15% target split to Lewis. Using the average of Shanahan’s offense the last three years (plus I threw in the NE splits from last year for ####s and giggles) this was my quick estimation:

352 total RB carries (for lead two backs)

113 total targets

Henry 183 787 4.2 6  (17 tgts) 12 120 10.0 0

Lewis 169 811 4.8 3 (96 tgts) 68 551 8.1 4

 

[bostonfred]

One other thing - for dynasty I think Henry has higher value than his 2018 projections. 

1) He could exceed expectations in 2018. 

2) Lewis is entering his age 28 season and has an injury history, so Henry could see more opportunity through injury or ineffectiveness by Lewis this year or next

3) Henry becomes a free agent after 2019, so he will get another shot at being the main guy in two years if not sooner. 

4) his talent seems to give him a relatively solid floor in the sense that i have more confidence that Henry will be a starting running back two years from now than a guy like Crowell. 

 

[az_prof]

My guess on usage:

Henry will get first and second downs unless he needs a blow.  Henry will get third and fourth on short yardage (2 yards or less). Henry will get most TD opportunities (inside the 10). He will carry the rock late in game when they are ahead and burning the clock.

Lewis will be the third down and long back (3+ yards). He will also give Henry a breather now and then.  He will be the main back in the second half when the Titans are down by a TD or more.

Both will contribute in real football but unless he totally fails, Henry will be a low RB1 and Lewis will be a low RB2/RB3 in PPR but won't be worth much in standard unless Henry is hurt.

 

[Bojang0301]

The idea of a 3rd down back is a relic. Lewis will be used on first and second and will be thrown to on first and second. Lafluer comes from under Shanahan (~125 RB targets last year, avg of ~110 RB targets the last three years) . Vrabel comes from under B.B. (with other stops along the way) who has had James White get ~75-85 RB targets the last two years. Lewis is going to be way, way more than a “3rd down back” for this offense.

 

[Jello_Biafra]

When they signed Lewis, I was pretty upset. Now, after some time, I'm looking at Lewis' career and the guy has done nothing his entire career. Look at last year. Great numbers, but he beat up on the Jets, Bills and Dolphins. Leaving that division will show what he really is. A complimentary player at best. As far as his salary, he's getting the going rate for a decent veteran. Means nothing about his playing time.

 

[-OZ-]

You should look at statistics before you 

make comments that aren’t true. Lewis has never had a season average below 4.4ypc ever.  And that’s going back to 2011. The guy averaged 5.0ypc last year. To say he did it against only the. Bills, Jets and Dolphins is very disingenuous and completely untrue. 

Sure. But how much weight do you give that average when he never had more than 64 carries in a season before 2017? He's coming off a career year. Actually he's coming off the best 6 games of his career. 

Just my of course but he sure looks like a complimentary player who benefited greatly by playing with the best QB in the league. He has a total of two games with 20 or more carries.

I don't see how anyone looks at his career and thinks he'll get more carries than Henry. I highly doubt he gets more touches but he will be a valuable receiving back. He's going to compliment Henry, not replace him. 

The only downside imo is for those of us who thought Henry would also get many more receptions. That seems unlikely now.

 

[Jello_Biafra]

You should look at statistics before you 

make comments that aren’t true. Lewis has never had a season average below 4.4ypc ever.  And that’s going back to 2011. The guy averaged 5.0ypc last year. To say he did it against only the. Bills, Jets and Dolphins is very disingenuous and completely untrue. 

I did look at the stats, and that's why I'm feeling good about Henry. Lewis has 1 season with over 64 carries - last year. he had 180-896-6 rushing. Out of that, he had 96-495-3 against his division. That's a nice chunk. None of this matters anyway, because every projection for Lewis is based on speculation because in his entire career he has not given a large enough sample size to predict the future. Not having more than one season with over 64 carries is more evidence that he was brought in to be a compliment to Henry, YPC means nothing when you're not an early down back.