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RB Indy (1 Viewer)

Jeff Pasquino

Jeff Pasquino

Footballguy
Disclaimer - Not a big believer in Addai.

Edgerrin James left Indy and his numbers dropped. Was it Edge? Doesn't appear to be, as he's putting up good numbers now as Whisenhunt has improved the Cards' O-line.

Now, with the success of Kenton Keith (and his very VERY good performance last week) is Addai's production level to date more a reflection of the Indy O-line coupled with Peyton Manning and his elite receiving corps, or is it a reflection fo Addai himself?

The argument against Addai's numbers being about him vs. his offense gets stronger with Keith seemingly coming out of nowhere and putting up killer fantasy numbers in Week 5.

That argument may be strengthened even further if Rhodes doesn't do well in Oakland now that he has also left.

So - is "RB Indy" now akin to "RB Denver"?

 
Seems to make sense since there are very few RBs like Barry Sanders that can be productive behind a crap OL.

Yes, the DEN RBs have to have good vision and understand zone blocking but as a coach would rather have a great OL/scheme and decent RB compared to a great RB with a decent OL.

 
In a way I think so, but more from the standpoint of Indy getting up on teams early and letting a mediocre RB wear down a defense or carry enough times to break a few long ones.

I honestly feel that Addai ran with more vision than keith. Addai seems to see the defenders coming and pinball off them for his yardage. Keith was good, but not as agile, he just wore em down and hit a few long ones.

I don't have either of them. I did own Keith and I dropped him to waivers to pick up Laurent Robinson.... (dynasty league that I am getting killed in this yr, so I like Robinson long term and noone would trade for Keith)

But, yes I agree with your basic thought, that a RB in Indy will do well. I think thats accurate.

I read that Keith is cousins with Ahman Green... Interesting if true.

 
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I don't think Addai is a "special" RB, but I believe he's above average in nearly every category, including receiving, pass prorection, and vision. He's not a "great" short yardage RB but he's good enough. Most anyone you put behind that line will do well.

 
I'm not sure. Can we really take one game by Keith, amazing as it was, and extrapolate over the whole season? Addai has a much larger sample, and when I watch him, he appears to know when to make cuts, and he is very good in the open field. This thread seems like a backhanded slap at Addai and I don't really get it. Does Michael Turner's strong performances prove that LT is ordinary after all, and its only SD's blocking scheme?

 
Addai looked like a phenomenal RB in the Denver game. He was juking people out of there shoes, cutting, and slashing, and putting huge hits on people. Before that I wouldve agreed that Addai may not be special but is a good fit, but after watching that Denver game I think I was wrong. Addai looks special. Keith on the other hand didnt do anything that stood out to me vs TB. Just ran hard and ran downhill and had some huge holes in the 4th quarter to run through.

 
The Colts's game against the Bucs was a bit of an abberration. The entire team played super-hard because they knew that they were missing 6 starters and they had to perform to win the game. The home crowd knew this, too - and they cheered louder than the usual run-of-the-mill NFC matchup. Sometimes a team can come together for one game with significantly less than their best players and put up a great effort - and that is what happened on Sunday.

 
djcolts said:
The Colts's game against the Bucs was a bit of an abberration. The entire team played super-hard because they knew that they were missing 6 starters and they had to perform to win the game. The home crowd knew this, too - and they cheered louder than the usual run-of-the-mill NFC matchup. Sometimes a team can come together for one game with significantly less than their best players and put up a great effort - and that is what happened on Sunday.
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I think so too. Colts vs Bucs = Steelers vs Seahawks. Both home teams had several parts missing. However, there's no Steeler thread proclaiming that Hines Ward and cedrick Wilson have the same talent and are interchangeable.
 
Rhodes was not all that great last year beyond his Super Bowl performance, so I think it remains to be seen whether any RB can produce there. I think people continue to underestimate Addai's ability.

 
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benm3218 said:
In a way I think so, but more from the standpoint of Indy getting up on teams early and letting a mediocre RB wear down a defense or carry enough times to break a few long ones.

I honestly feel that Addai ran with more vision than keith. Addai seems to see the defenders coming and pinball off them for his yardage. Keith was good, but not as agile, he just wore em down and hit a few long ones.

I don't have either of them. I did own Keith and I dropped him to waivers to pick up Laurent Robinson.... (dynasty league that I am getting killed in this yr, so I like Robinson long term and noone would trade for Keith)

But, yes I agree with your basic thought, that a RB in Indy will do well. I think thats accurate.

I read that Keith is cousins with Ahman Green... Interesting if true.
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Yes it is, along with Roger Craig.Fox Link

IIRC, Keith is the oldest RB on the Colts since he spent so much time (and did well) in the CFL for Saskatchewan.

 
Remember how good James Mungro looked those couple of weeks a few years ago.

Might be on to something here.....

 
timschochet said:
I'm not sure. Can we really take one game by Keith, amazing as it was, and extrapolate over the whole season? Addai has a much larger sample, and when I watch him, he appears to know when to make cuts, and he is very good in the open field. This thread seems like a backhanded slap at Addai and I don't really get it. Does Michael Turner's strong performances prove that LT is ordinary after all, and its only SD's blocking scheme?
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Not entirely, no. My premise is that the Indy running game makes a back look better than he would on another roster.

For example, if Addai were to leave the Colts, would he do better or worse?

He may never leave Indy so we may never know, but I'm just saying that the offense makes Addai look better than his talent would alone.

I give you that Addai is better than an average back, but the entire situation elevates him to the Top 10 rather than just his talent alone.

The 1990s analogy here would be to compare Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith and their O-lines / situation. There's little question as to who had more talent (Sanders) and who had a better supporting cast (Smith). I believe that Addai is more in the "Smith" situation than the "Sanders" situation (speaking situation alone, not comparing talents).

 
the situations are similar b/c both teams can take an average RB and turn them into a star. in indy's case, a team would never put 8-men in the box to stop the running game, so there are always running lanes.

the difference is that indy will go after RBs in the 1st round, stick with them, and generally make it easier to know who's carrying the load. given the 1st round selections of edge and addai, it appears that indy (unlike denver) at least tries to pretend that it actually matters who their RB is. the only thing that i think actually matters for the indy RBs is that they are smart enough to understand the blocking assignments to keep peyton from getting hit.

another comparison is the patriots. a decent RB on a great team with a great QB can look like a star. i don't recall any bidding wars over sammy morris' services (or any other patriots RB since 2001, except maybe dillon, but i don't even think he was highly sought after).

on the whole, i think alot of teams are figuring this out. there are alot of guys in this world that can run the football and, for the most part, RBs are a product of the system that they play in. combine that with the fact that RBs start to wear down soon after they become stars, and that's why smart teams don't give monster contracts to RBs. the market was bare when edge and alexander were looking for new contracts. they just lucked out when the desparate, pre-whisenhunt cardinals came calling and somehow the seahawks were convinced that the light-stepping, slow-footed alexander wasn't just a product of jones, hutch, and strong.

 
Keys Myaths said:
Pasquino is correct. I'd argue that Indy>Denver at this point.
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I would agree, for this season, although I think it represents more of a personnel thing than a scheme thing (whereas Denver or Pittsburgh are more scheme than personnel), so if a bunch of people start leaving on offense, it could change. Still, I don't think it's revolutionary to suggest that whoever is starting in Indy for the next couple of years is going to be a stud. A couple of years ago, Kansas City's RB was a total plug-and-play stud (Holmes, Johnson, and even BLAYLOCK were uber in that system). That was a personnel thing, too, and as personnel left that changed in a big way, but while it lasted... it was a thing of beauty.I don't think that is a reflection on Addai's talent, though. Were Holmes and LJ suddenly just average RBs because Derrick Blaylock was unstoppable in that offense, too? Are Portis and Terrell Davis now merely good-but-not-great RBs because Mike Anderson had almost 1500 yards rushing in Denver?
timschochet said:
I'm not sure. Can we really take one game by Keith, amazing as it was, and extrapolate over the whole season? Addai has a much larger sample, and when I watch him, he appears to know when to make cuts, and he is very good in the open field. This thread seems like a backhanded slap at Addai and I don't really get it. Does Michael Turner's strong performances prove that LT is ordinary after all, and its only SD's blocking scheme?
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LT demonstrated his skill back when Turner was nowhere to be found and San Diego's offense was horrible. Turner's performance *DOES* make me question whether San Diego might be a similar "uber-system", though. I'd need a third data point before I considered it more than just a convergence of solid RBs, though (for instance, Indy wasn't an uber-system until we had Edge, Addai, *AND* Keith looking good in it).
timschochet said:
I think so too. Colts vs Bucs = Steelers vs Seahawks. Both home teams had several parts missing. However, there's no Steeler thread proclaiming that Hines Ward and cedrick Wilson have the same talent and are interchangeable.
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I think there's a difference between saying that Ward's backups have comparable value to Ward himself when he's out, and saying that Ward's backups are as good as he is. I think Ward's backups have comparable value to Ward when he's out, but I don't think they're nearly as talented as Ward. I think Keith has comparable value to Addai when he's out, but I don't think he's nearly as talented as Addai.
 
I confused by what Jeff is saying. Is he suggesting that IND, like the more recent DEN teams, will elect to use lesser known RB and rotate them either week to week or year to year?

Clearly the IND system has led to top tier RB production (maybe not TD scorig wise) . . . are Addai owners supposed to be concered that he will not be keeping his job or will be forced to share a big chunk of the workload?

 
The Colts are team that has a good offensive line, they score a lot of points and they try to mix the run and pass.

Any RB that's decent will put up fantasy numbers there. The more talented the back, the more he'll get in that system.

Addai is more talented than anyone they have there so when he's healthy, he will be the guy. It's really no more complicated than that.

 
timschochet said:
djcolts said:
The Colts's game against the Bucs was a bit of an abberration. The entire team played super-hard because they knew that they were missing 6 starters and they had to perform to win the game. The home crowd knew this, too - and they cheered louder than the usual run-of-the-mill NFC matchup. Sometimes a team can come together for one game with significantly less than their best players and put up a great effort - and that is what happened on Sunday.
Click to expand...
I think so too. Colts vs Bucs = Steelers vs Seahawks. Both home teams had several parts missing. However, there's no Steeler thread proclaiming that Hines Ward and cedrick Wilson have the same talent and are interchangeable.
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hines ward has done a lot more in the nfl than addai
 
Of course scheme & surrounding personnel make a difference...what's so ground-breaking about that idea? That's the essence of team sports in general, and football in particular.

 
I think any time you have an explosive offense you can put about any NFL quality level RB in the game and get production, at least for a few games. I don't consider Indy anymore the new Denver than I do the Pats this season.

 
shadyridr said:
Addai looked like a phenomenal RB in the Denver game. He was juking people out of there shoes, cutting, and slashing, and putting huge hits on people. Before that I wouldve agreed that Addai may not be special but is a good fit, but after watching that Denver game I think I was wrong. Addai looks special. Keith on the other hand didnt do anything that stood out to me vs TB. Just ran hard and ran downhill and had some huge holes in the 4th quarter to run through.
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anyone can run on denver, their Defense is horrible. The Bucs defense is alot better then denver. taking that game and evaluating addai skills is a bit off. Look at his other games this year and they are very avg. I agree and say its more of the colts system. No defense is going to stack the box to stop the run with manning and company ripping the secondaries apart. Defenses plan on stopping Manning.
 
This argument was already proven back in 01 when Rhodes was the #11 fantasy RB as an undrafted free agent rookie after James went down. It's definitely good to be Peyton's RB.

 
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Sigmund Bloom said:
This argument was already proven back in 01 when Rhodes was the #11 fantasy RB as an undrafted free agent rookie after James went down. It's definitely good to be Peyton's RB.
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As noted, the same Rhodes did not do all that well last year beyond the Super Bowl, and was far outperformed by Addai for the bulk of the year. System is definitely a factor, but talent definitely plays a big role in it as well.
 
zamboni said:
Sigmund Bloom said:
This argument was already proven back in 01 when Rhodes was the #11 fantasy RB as an undrafted free agent rookie after James went down. It's definitely good to be Peyton's RB.
Click to expand...
As noted, the same Rhodes did not do all that well last year beyond the Super Bowl, and was far outperformed by Addai for the bulk of the year. System is definitely a factor, but talent definitely plays a big role in it as well.
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Talent doesnt just disappear... Rhodes did well in Indy in 01 due to the system.Addai is more talented than Keith, but any RB can do well in Indy. Just like Henry is more talented than the other Denver RB's but they could all do well if he goes out. It's the same in Indy too. Does anyone remember Quentin Griffin? lol
 
menobrown said:
I think any time you have an explosive offense you can put about any NFL quality level RB in the game and get production, at least for a few games. I don't consider Indy anymore the new Denver than I do the Pats this season.
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:hophead: Which is why you shouldnt forget the name Heath Evans, and maybe even Kyle Eckel. Back in 05, Patrick Pass had a huge game, and Evans had a couple of solid games in place of a banged up Corey Dillon.
 
benm3218 said:
zamboni said:
Sigmund Bloom said:
This argument was already proven back in 01 when Rhodes was the #11 fantasy RB as an undrafted free agent rookie after James went down. It's definitely good to be Peyton's RB.
Click to expand...
As noted, the same Rhodes did not do all that well last year beyond the Super Bowl, and was far outperformed by Addai for the bulk of the year. System is definitely a factor, but talent definitely plays a big role in it as well.
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Talent doesnt just disappear... Rhodes did well in Indy in 01 due to the system.Addai is more talented than Keith, but any RB can do well in Indy. Just like Henry is more talented than the other Denver RB's but they could all do well if he goes out. It's the same in Indy too.
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That was my point though. Addai far outperformed Rhodes last year in the very same system. If he weren't a rookie picking up the offense (which he did rather quickly), Addai probably would have relegated Rhodes to the bench.Overall, I agree that system clearly matters, but it's far from an automatic plug and play thing.
 
In spite of Jeff's attempt at suggesting Addai isn't a very RB, he's said something that rings true fr any position in the NFL. Some systems are more friendly to a position than others. Not all teams are equal. Some have better offenses and some better defenses. I think most would agree that a back, any back, will do better in Indy than say Houston. That's the difference in their systems.

To suggest Adaai isn't a good RB because others have had success doesn't really make sense in the evaluation of fantasy RB's. Part of the evaluation is the system. If Addai's back up became the starter next week I think most would agree that he would be a good fantasy option. At least until he proves otherwise.

But here's where Jeff fails to balance this conversation. Indy has a track record of finding better than average RB's. Further they've done an excellent job of placing the right talent in a system that excels. The RB benefits, the QB benefits and the WR's/TE's benefit. And yes, Manning is the driver of this machine and he's a great one. Without him I doubt the system would be what it is.

With that said, it hardly proves that Addai isn't a good back. Like Jeff said, we may never know.

But I'll gladly take Addai over most every back in the NFL, right now, today. And that's all I need to know. :mellow:

 
If LJ, MJD, or any other struggling RB got traded to the Colts just imagine the carnage. They IMO are worlds more talented than Addai. However, situation matters and as such Addai could be considered the RB1 next season assuming his go forward health doesn't give him the dreaded fragile label.

 
zamboni said:
benm3218 said:
zamboni said:
Sigmund Bloom said:
This argument was already proven back in 01 when Rhodes was the #11 fantasy RB as an undrafted free agent rookie after James went down. It's definitely good to be Peyton's RB.
Click to expand...
As noted, the same Rhodes did not do all that well last year beyond the Super Bowl, and was far outperformed by Addai for the bulk of the year. System is definitely a factor, but talent definitely plays a big role in it as well.
Click to expand...
Talent doesnt just disappear... Rhodes did well in Indy in 01 due to the system.Addai is more talented than Keith, but any RB can do well in Indy. Just like Henry is more talented than the other Denver RB's but they could all do well if he goes out. It's the same in Indy too.
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That was my point though. Addai far outperformed Rhodes last year in the very same system. If he weren't a rookie picking up the offense (which he did rather quickly), Addai probably would have relegated Rhodes to the bench.Overall, I agree that system clearly matters, but it's far from an automatic plug and play thing.
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If its a sole feature back, like it was last week, its an automatic plug and play thing. As long as Manning is playing, his RB is a top 25 option that week, even if its a street free agent.
 
Ariakis said:
If LJ, MJD, or any other struggling RB got traded to the Colts just imagine the carnage. They IMO are worlds more talented than Addai. However, situation matters and as such Addai could be considered the RB1 next season assuming his go forward health doesn't give him the dreaded fragile label.
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LOL at the suggestion that MJD is better than Addai. :oAddai is good, deal with it!
 
Jeff Pasquino said:
Disclaimer - Not a big believer in Addai.Edgerrin James left Indy and his numbers dropped. Was it Edge? Doesn't appear to be, as he's putting up good numbers now as Whisenhunt has improved the Cards' O-line.Now, with the success of Kenton Keith (and his very VERY good performance last week) is Addai's production level to date more a reflection of the Indy O-line coupled with Peyton Manning and his elite receiving corps, or is it a reflection fo Addai himself?The argument against Addai's numbers being about him vs. his offense gets stronger with Keith seemingly coming out of nowhere and putting up killer fantasy numbers in Week 5.That argument may be strengthened even further if Rhodes doesn't do well in Oakland now that he has also left.So - is "RB Indy" now akin to "RB Denver"?
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Definitely!Marshall Faulk stunk after leaving Indy, and so has Edgerrin James. Joseph Addai was just terribly overrated by NFL scouting departments.None of these guys were ever good, they are total scrubs and completely a product of Indy's great run-blocking OL, and running scheme which Tom Moore is famous for....I mean Indy's scouting department is SO bad they couldn't pick a talented player in the draft if they were the only team in the league...
 
My question about Addai isn't how good he is when he's playing.......but can he carry the load. This was my big concern heading into this season, drafting him top 4 to 6.

It wasn't if he could put up solid numbers in this offense. Shoot, anyone can do that in a game as an NFL RB on the Colts. It's if he can take the banging of an entire season because last year he was in a RBBC situation.

I think him missing time his first real year as a feature RB is problematic. I see him early on as almost like a Travis Henry in the fact that he looks very talented but in general, he's going to be a guy who plays around 12-14 full games a season.

Keep in mind, this is as fresh as he'll ever be in his life and he's already dinged. He was pulled out of the game a couple weeks ago and missed last week's. Who know's if he would have been ready to go this week if not for a bye.

I know we heard the quotes from Dungy saying he would have went back in if it were closer but that turned out to be coachspeak because he missed the next week :popcorn:

So what am I saying here? I guess I'm saying the guy is talented and that he's in an awesome situation that will help him showcase that. But what I'm also saying is I wasn't sure heading into this season if he could carry the complete load and from what I see, those concerns look to be justified.

 
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RBM said:
Remember how good James Mungro looked those couple of weeks a few years ago.Might be on to something here.....
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this is TEXTBOOK fantasy... some years, there are teams that you get whatever starting RB there is... SD may be another... we'll see if/when Turner leaves for next year.Kansas City was a lock.. a few years back...Priest was all-world... went down... Derrick Blaylock came in and put up 144/2, maybe 144/3 can't remember exactly.. he goes down, then Larry Johnson puts together an amazing 5 game span. Now that o-line/offense isn't much like it was before and Larry is marginalized a bit.St Louis is (or was) an example of a passing "honeyhole"... Bulger, Frerotte, even the Fitzpatrick kid... all put up good fantasy numbers.We'll see how good Domonic Rhodes is this year... course the Raider run offense might be legit, and/or the RBBC with Jordan/Rhodes/Fartgas all cutting into each others action.
 
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shakeybarn said:
RBM said:
Remember how good James Mungro looked those couple of weeks a few years ago.Might be on to something here.....
Click to expand...
this is TEXTBOOK fantasy... some years, there are teams that you get whatever starting RB there is... SD may be another... we'll see if/when Turner leaves for next year.Kansas City was a lock.. a few years back...Priest was all-world... went down... Derrick Blaylock came in and put up 144/2, maybe 144/3 can't remember exactly.. he goes down, then Larry Johnson puts together an amazing 5 game span. Now that o-line/offense isn't much like it was before and Larry is marginalized a bit.St Louis is (or was) an example of a passing "honeyhole"... Bulger, Frerotte, even the Fitzpatrick kid... all put up good fantasy numbers.We'll see how good Domonic Rhodes is this year... course the Raider run offense might be legit, and/or the RBBC with Jordan/Rhodes/Fartgas all cutting into each others action.
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Oh and as mentioned with Denver.... Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Mike Bell, Tatum Bell... although Portis has been great in Washington (course so has Ladell Betts.... so not a complete apples:apples)
 
menobrown said:
switz said:
The Scientist said:
menobrown said:
pizzatyme said:
LOL at the suggestion that MJD is better than Addai. :popcorn:
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I think MJD is better as well.
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:lmao: I think MJD is better
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Anyone who says this is just crazy... If MJD were more talented than Addai he'd be the starting back in JAX... or at least getting more touches. There's a reason he isn't - deal with it.
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What was the reason Addai did not start last year?
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Rookie learning a complex offense, with Dungy wanting protect the franchise QB.
 
zamboni said:
menobrown said:
switz said:
The Scientist said:
menobrown said:
pizzatyme said:
LOL at the suggestion that MJD is better than Addai. :goodposting:
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I think MJD is better as well.
Click to expand...
:popcorn: I think MJD is better
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Anyone who says this is just crazy... If MJD were more talented than Addai he'd be the starting back in JAX... or at least getting more touches. There's a reason he isn't - deal with it.
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What was the reason Addai did not start last year?
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Rookie learning a complex offense, with Dungy wanting protect the franchise QB.
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I'd disagree and say it was because Dungy felt comfortable with Rhodes the same way Del Rio feels comfortable with Taylor.
 
menobrown said:
switz said:
The Scientist said:
menobrown said:
pizzatyme said:
LOL at the suggestion that MJD is better than Addai. :goodposting:
Click to expand...
I think MJD is better as well.
Click to expand...
:popcorn: I think MJD is better
Click to expand...
Anyone who says this is just crazy... If MJD were more talented than Addai he'd be the starting back in JAX... or at least getting more touches. There's a reason he isn't - deal with it.
Click to expand...
What was the reason Addai did not start last year?
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Well, that might be a good argument if say, MJD DID start last season without Taylor being hurt, or if MJD was starting this year and Addai wasn't, or if MJD got starts in the playoffs while Addai didn't... or something like that.But right now your question is ridiculous. Especially since the Colts said before last season even started that they were going to work Addai in slowly so he could learn all of their protection schemes.I guess the real question is, if MJD is SO talented, why hasn't he earned more playing time?
 
menobrown said:
zamboni said:
menobrown said:
switz said:
The Scientist said:
menobrown said:
pizzatyme said:
LOL at the suggestion that MJD is better than Addai. :goodposting:
Click to expand...
I think MJD is better as well.
Click to expand...
:popcorn: I think MJD is better
Click to expand...
Anyone who says this is just crazy... If MJD were more talented than Addai he'd be the starting back in JAX... or at least getting more touches. There's a reason he isn't - deal with it.
Click to expand...
What was the reason Addai did not start last year?
Click to expand...
Rookie learning a complex offense, with Dungy wanting protect the franchise QB.
Click to expand...
I'd disagree and say it was because Dungy felt comfortable with Rhodes the same way Del Rio feels comfortable with Taylor.
Click to expand...
Too bad that's not what the coach said before the season started.You can say what you want, it doesn't make it true.
 
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