RB Jonathan Taylor, IND (3 Viewers)

[Snoopy]

Do games missed while on the PUP accrue towards contracts?

What about IR?

yes. Holdouts is what don't count.

 

[Insein]

Already had my draft and took JT at the 2.5. Can't believe I'd ever say "really wish I had Najee Harris right now" but here we are.

 

[zoonation]

Probably fair but I expect he'll go before then

So if Kamara's ADP is mid-6th, this puts Taylor late 6-7th round?

That’s bananas. Way too much risk with this toxic situation.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

in a

Honor the contract you signed.

But the teams don’t honor them? The non-guaranteed part is team friendly and leaves the player with no leverage.

They are playing under the agreement the players union and owners agreed to.

Yes, both sides are.

Then Taylor needs to, as what was said earlier, "suck it up" until a new agreement is made.

No, he doesn't. Just like you don't "need" to honor your employment contract.

He's not an indentured servant.

….then I hope he’s saved enough of that rookie contract to tidy him over until he’s a FA next year. That is if he refuses to play week 5 onward. I doubt he can afford to throw away paychecks.

He’s not refusing to play. The team didn’t activate him.

 

[satch]

If Taylor is never going to play his best for the Colts ever again, why wouldn’t the Colts simply accept the best offer they received an move on? How do the Colts benefit by having a useless malcontent dragging the team down all season only to see him walk in 2024? Why not get something now instead of nothing later?

By “useless”, I’m referring to Taylor missing games and dogging it all season.

 

[massraider]

Everyone knows the concept of JT sitting out games is COMPLETE SPECULATION by us, and JT has zero statements to support this theory, right?

Everyone knows this, yeah? I feel like some of you don't know this.

 

[JohnnyU]

If Taylor is never going to play his best for the Colts ever again, why wouldn’t the Colts simply accept the best offer they received an move on? How do the Colts benefit by having a useless malcontent dragging the team down all season only to see him walk in 2024? Why not get something now instead of nothing later?

By “useless”, I’m referring to Taylor missing games and dogging it all season.

They know they aren’t winning this year anyway

 

[zoonation]

I honestly don’t understand the thought process with these RBs. Organizations, presumably, want to win the SB and make decisions to achieve that goal. Paying an RB a ton of money has no (or negligible) historical precedent for achieving that goal.

So, these RB’s have one great year, that didn’t help their team win anything and they think the brinks truck is being loaded up to dump a bunch of cash on their doorstep?

RBs that significantly contributed in the 2023 SB:

KC - J. McKinnon and Isaiah P. Kind of.
Eagles - Nobody.

 

[satch]

Everyone knows the concept of JT sitting out games is COMPLETE SPECULATION by us, and JT has zero statements to support this theory, right?

Everyone knows this, yeah? I feel like some of you don't know this.

Of course it’s speculation, what else are we left to do?

 

[massraider]

Of course it’s speculation, what else are we left to do?

No idea, but this thread is starting to sound like the girlfriend accusing me of cheating before I even left the house.

 

[Chaka]

Of course it’s speculation, what else are we left to do?

No idea, but this thread is starting to sound like the girlfriend accusing me of cheating before I even left the house.

You know what you did.

 

[travdogg]

What's really getting me, is why not put Taylor on the active roster, and then if some Rb gets hurt or whatever. you can still trade him without him having to sit for 4 games. Its not like that 53rd spot matters.

This is a classic, both sides are stupid move. Taylor should have just shown up and played, and if he wasn't going to, then Indy should have traded him, or forced him to suit up. I highly doubt Taylor would actively play poorly, that would instantly kill his value going forward, and he'd never get paid.

Bad teams are bad for a reason, I guess.

 

[Jamesinaz]

Waiting to see where they rank him for my coming draft now. He is still the #11 RB on in my league. Gotta think he falls below Kamara etc.

 

[Banger]

How does this move made by the Colts, help the Colts?

 

[SoBeDad]

How does this move made by the Colts, help the Colts?

2024 tanking for OL, WR, etc.

 

[travdogg]

Waiting to see where they rank him for my coming draft now. He is still the #11 RB on in my league. Gotta think he falls below Kamara etc.

I'd still take Taylor over Kamara. Kamara is missing just about as much time and has to deal with Jamaal/Miller. Taylor's situation looks rough now, but he could still be dealt, or something could change, we know what Kamara's role is, and its not super appealing to me.

I'm not super interested in drafting either as anything higher than an RB3. I'd say this pushes Taylor to the Mattison/Dobbins range, but I'd hope with the way RBs are being undervalued in fantasy, I'd expect to have 2 RBs well before that range.

 

[Ted Lange as your Bartender]

Jim Irsay somehow managed to handle his star RB worse than Joe Schoen... badmouthed Taylor with that weird "if I died" comment, made up a fake injury for him and PUP'd him, then after all that wanted a first rounder for him despite refusing to pay him due to the RB market (and arguably the position in general) dying?

Oh, a masterclass in being an absolute piece of crap owner

Don't forget they also handed out the 2nd highest contract in history to a kicker this offseason!

what...what???

4 years, 22.5 million, about 13M of which is guaranteed and averaging 5.5 per season. Announced in the middle of all this. Then they don't open the wallet for JT to get $7M

Irsay seems like a complete tool, but again, we have no idea what JT was looking for here.

Look, Irsay and the Colts are doing the right thing. JT is under contract and if chooses not to honor it, that's all on him. I'm sick and tired of players not honoring their contract. I don't care if he ever plays for Indy again, and if he doesn't and he is not traded, then his butt is sitting on his couch without a paycheck. Good riddance as far as I'm concerned.

Are you equally tired of franchises cutting players, then?

It is what it is. Honor the contract you signed. Derrick Henry did and played with the franchise tag in addition to honoring his rookie contract. What makes JT deserve more than Henry?

Minor quibble but Henry never actually played under the franchise tag, they worked out an extension that same offseason he was tagged. He did play out his original 4 year contract as you said though. We'll see if Taylor does after these first four games on the PUP.

The other big difference is that he didn’t really become DERRICK HENRY until December of his 3rd season. He was pretty lackluster overall up until that TNF Jaguars game.

 

[massraider]

I'd still take Taylor over Kamara. Kamara is missing just about as much time and has to deal with Jamaal/Miller. Taylor's situation looks rough now, but he could still be dealt, or something could change, we know what Kamara's role is, and its not super appealing to me.

I think Kendre Miller is a threat to Williams, not to Kamara.

Further, Taylor suddenly has a really exciting goalline competition. What you think ARich's over/under is on rushing TDs? 6.5 or so? That's a definite vulturing problem.

 

[Chaka]

I'm sick and tired of players not honoring their contract.

You are far, far too experienced in this arena to truly hold such a one dimensional viewpoint.

Honestly, not throwing shade or trying to start anything but I have trouble believing that you truly view NFL player contracts in this way.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Of course it’s speculation, what else are we left to do?

No idea, but this thread is starting to sound like the girlfriend accusing me of cheating before I even left the house.

Well? Did you?

 

[Chaka]

JT needs to have thicker skin and stop thinking with his emotions instead of his brain. If he chooses to sit after coming off the PUP and he's not traded, then if he doesn't collect another paycheck IN 2023 that is on him. He's getting poor advice from someone. Didn't Derrick Henry play his entire rookie contract and had the franchise tag at least once?

He hasn't done anything yet. He hasn't really said anything either. He'll be back after week 4 and that's all that we know.

Nothing that has happened suggests he is receiving poor advice.

 

[eighsse2]

I'm sick and tired of players not honoring their contract.

You are far, far too experienced in this arena to truly hold such a one dimensional viewpoint.

Honestly, not throwing shade or trying to start anything but I have trouble believing that you truly view NFL player contracts in this way.

I mean ... It's a contract. It's not exactly wacko to expect it to be honored.

 

[massraider]

I mean ... It's a contract. It's not exactly wacko to expect it to be honored.

Only player I am aware of not doing it right now is Chris Jones. He is holding out. Maybe there are others.

it's very rare.

What's not rare is a player making it known he is unhappy. This is NOT breach of contract.

What's extra really not rare are teams dumping players a year into their contract.

Yes, due to the nature of their contracts, the team can cut them. And ALSO, due to the nature of their contracts, players can sit out and try and force a trade.

 

[eighsse2]

I mean ... It's a contract. It's not exactly wacko to expect it to be honored.

Only player I am aware of not doing it right now is Chris Jones. He is holding out. Maybe there are others.

it's very rare.

What's not rare is a player making it known he is unhappy. This is NOT breach of contract.

What's extra really not rare are teams dumping players a year into their contract.

Yes, due to the nature of their contracts, the team can cut them. And ALSO, sue to the nature of their contracts, players can sit out and try and force a trade.

Asking genuinely: is there not anything in the contract that says in essence I agree to play when asked to play and put forth real, substantial effort?

 

[travdogg]

I mean ... It's a contract. It's not exactly wacko to expect it to be honored.

Only player I am aware of not doing it right now is Chris Jones. He is holding out. Maybe there are others.

Reigning Defensive Player of the Year Nick Bosa is still holding out too.

 

[3nOut]

If Taylor is never going to play his best for the Colts ever again, why wouldn’t the Colts simply accept the best offer they received an move on? How do the Colts benefit by having a useless malcontent dragging the team down all season only to see him walk in 2024? Why not get something now instead of nothing later?

By “useless”, I’m referring to Taylor missing games and dogging it all season.

Many reasons. 1. Because Irsay doesn't want to trade him. He has a contract and wants Taylor to play. 2. Because its bad business and he wants to get full value on his investment. He knows what Taylor's value is right now and what it will be at the end of the contract. Right now, he didn't feel he was offered enough. 3. He does not want to set a precedence for the entire NFL. If Taylor was traded, all RBs would have more leverage and do the same thing moving forward. 3. It is also not in Taylor's own best interest to be a useless malcontent. If he does not not play enough games this year, he does not accrue a year off his contract. If he has an attitude and simply shows up, this will make his value drop for other teams as they wouldn't want to tale a risk on a malcontent down the road when he becomes available. The Colts can bench him this year if he is just going through the motions and also tag him at the end of the year. And if this happens, they'd be in contention for the first overall pick in next year's draft. The Colts actually have nothing to lose.

 

[The Frankman]

@eighsse2 I'd argue there are plenty of NFL players who don't put forth "real substantial effort" play in and play out. So no, that doesn't exist.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I mean ... It's a contract. It's not exactly wacko to expect it to be honored.

Only player I am aware of not doing it right now is Chris Jones. He is holding out. Maybe there are others.

it's very rare.

What's not rare is a player making it known he is unhappy. This is NOT breach of contract.

What's extra really not rare are teams dumping players a year into their contract.

Yes, due to the nature of their contracts, the team can cut them. And ALSO, due to the nature of their contracts, players can sit out and try and force a trade.

Christian Wilkins is holding in, as the kids say.

 

[Zow]

I'm sick and tired of players not honoring their contract.

You are far, far too experienced in this arena to truly hold such a one dimensional viewpoint.

Honestly, not throwing shade or trying to start anything but I have trouble believing that you truly view NFL player contracts in this way.

I mean ... It's a contract. It's not exactly wacko to expect it to be honored.

Contracts are broken daily in many aspects of life for reasons that are not malicious or cruel. In professional sports, it's always a real consideration that somebody may breach a contract.

 

[massraider]

Asking genuinely: is there not anything in the contract that says in essence I agree to play when asked to play and put forth real, substantial effort?

the important thing is:

There is a minimum number of games a player must be on the roster, IR, PUP, or otherwise, to have the season count towards free agency. I think it used to be 10. No more than that.

JT does not need to play every game when he gets back. The 4 games on PUP, that counts, because he reported to the team. he can play six games, and walk out on the team, and he will forfeit paychecks for those weeks, but the season will count as a full season, per his contract, and he will have honored his contract.

 

[Zow]

I mean ... It's a contract. It's not exactly wacko to expect it to be honored.

Only player I am aware of not doing it right now is Chris Jones. He is holding out. Maybe there are others.

it's very rare.

What's not rare is a player making it known he is unhappy. This is NOT breach of contract.

What's extra really not rare are teams dumping players a year into their contract.

Yes, due to the nature of their contracts, the team can cut them. And ALSO, sue to the nature of their contracts, players can sit out and try and force a trade.

Asking genuinely: is there not anything in the contract that says in essence I agree to play when asked to play and put forth real, substantial effort?

Probably not - though, depending on the state's law governing the contract, there may be an implied element of good faith and fair dealing that would create a breach or provide a team with some sort of relief should a player do something like throw a game, quit a game (e.g. Antonio Brown), etc.

Further, in the NFL especially, the teams have the very real remedy of cutting the player.

 

[massraider]

Something something goose and the gander

 

[3nOut]

I mean ... It's a contract. It's not exactly wacko to expect it to be honored.

Only player I am aware of not doing it right now is Chris Jones. He is holding out. Maybe there are others.

it's very rare.

What's not rare is a player making it known he is unhappy. This is NOT breach of contract.

What's extra really not rare are teams dumping players a year into their contract.

Yes, due to the nature of their contracts, the team can cut them. And ALSO, sue to the nature of their contracts, players can sit out and try and force a trade.

Asking genuinely: is there not anything in the contract that says in essence I agree to play when asked to play and put forth real, substantial effort?

Possibly.

2. EMPLOYMENT AND SERVICES. Club employs Player as a skilled footballplayer. Player accepts such employment. He agrees to give his best efforts andloyalty to the Club, and to conduct himself on and off the field...

Interpreting the NFL Player Contract

 

[humpback]

JT needs to have thicker skin and stop thinking with his emotions instead of his brain. If he chooses to sit after coming off the PUP and he's not traded, then if he doesn't collect another paycheck IN 2023 that is on him. He's getting poor advice from someone. Didn't Derrick Henry play his entire rookie contract and had the franchise tag at least once?

He hasn't done anything yet. He hasn't really said anything either. He'll be back after week 4 and that's all that we know.

Nothing that has happened suggests he is receiving poor advice.

We don't know that either really, all we know is that's the earliest he can be back.

So much speculation and judgement from both "sides", so little actual information to base it on.

 

[travdogg]

Asking genuinely: is there not anything in the contract that says in essence I agree to play when asked to play and put forth real, substantial effort?

the important thing is:

There is a minimum number of games a player must be on the roster, IR, PUP, or otherwise, to have the season count towards free agency. I think it used to be 10. No more than that.

JT does not need to play every game when he gets back. The 4 games on PUP, that counts, because he reported to the team. he can play six games, and walk out on the team, and he will forfeit paychecks for those weeks, but the season will count as a full season, per his contract, and he will have honored his contract.

The problem becomes, let's say Taylor does play 6 games, and then quits. Why would you sign him as a FA, why would you want to sign a quitter?

I can't see Taylor doing that, it would absolutely tank his FA value, especially because the 2024 FA RB class is:

Derrick Henry
Saquon Barkley
Josh Jacobs
Tony Pollard
Austin Ekeler

Is Taylor better than any of those guys?

Then a 2nd tier of
JK Dobbins
AJ Dillon
D'Andre Swift
Dalvin Cook
Antonio Gibson

All of those guys are likely to be cheaper than Taylor.

Plus, incoming rookies like:
Blake Corum (Michigan)
Braelon Allen (Wisconsin)
Bucky Irving (Oregon)
Donovan Edwards (Michigan)
Trey Benson (Florida St)
TreVeyon Henderson (Ohio State)

 

[FarFromHome]

My immediate response to honor the contract is simple. If he signed a 5 year big contract and tore his Achilles in week 1 would the Colts honor the contract? I'll help ya. NOPE. It's an ugly business.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

The problem becomes, let's say Taylor does play 6 games, and then quits. Why would you sign him as a FA, why would you want to sign a quitter?

Because the NFL is a business, and a cutthroat one.

Lest we forget, the Browns didn't just sign Deshaun Watson, but (a) gave up a million draft picks for the right to do so and (b) handed him 230 million fully-guaranteed American dollars. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that unless JT is keeping kidnapped children in a basement dungeon, whatever actions he has or will take this season pale in comparison.

 

[FarFromHome]

I think it deters other players from taking this path? Im guessing really

 

[The Frankman]

There's a reason contracts in the NFL are non-guaranteed. Owners break them constantly to put guys out to pasture and most contracts are rife with void years/"funny money". Weird take to crap on Taylor for not "honoring" the contract.

 

[Runkle]

I'm surprised he didn't go to Unknown Mystery Team That Will Shock You

 

[Chaka]

My immediate response to honor the contract is simple. If he signed a 5 year big contract and tore his Achilles in week 1 would the Colts honor the contract? I'll help ya. NOPE. It's an ugly business.

It's not as simple one way or another.

If a player pops an Achilles they keep their signing bonus, even if that bonus reflects five seasons of value.

The bottom line is between up front money, weird non guaranteed years (that simply should not exist), team options and whatever other weirdness they stuff into NFL contracts it simply isn't a simple case of "You signed it so honor it".

Teams cut players who are under contract all the time with only esoteric consequences against dead money and caps. Consequences which are typically ameliorated by asking [forcing] other players to restructure their contracts or get cut. The consequences to players impact their livelihood and will resonate until they die.

Nothing wrong with JT using his limited leverage to get a better deal before the NFL chews him up and spits him out.

 

[FFWhiskey]

What's really getting me, is why not put Taylor on the active roster, and then if some Rb gets hurt or whatever. you can still trade him without him having to sit for 4 games. Its not like that 53rd spot matters.

This is a classic, both sides are stupid move. Taylor should have just shown up and played, and if he wasn't going to, then Indy should have traded him, or forced him to suit up. I highly doubt Taylor would actively play poorly, that would instantly kill his value going forward, and he'd never get paid.

Bad teams are bad for a reason, I guess.

I still stand by my theory that the Colts would rather win 3 games without Taylor and draft Marvin Harrison Jr.

Paying J Taylor and winning 6-8 games is actually bad for the franchise on multiple levels. Let's pay a guy early so he can hurt our chance to draft our former HOFer's son.



J Taylor overplayed his hand. If all they can get is a 2nd, they'll still get a second if dude wants to holdout and be traded next NFL draft.


PUP list is great. Colts can go 0-4 and nobody would blink an eye. Total ********, but that's business baby. Don't bite the hand that feeds.

 

[packer_junkie]

People acting like he will just "quit" are silly. He will have a hurt hamstring or knee or whatever if he wants to sit out (Kind of like the QB in Baltimore did last season)-- didn't really hurt him in FA.

I have an auction tomorrow night-- always been a gambler- especially for upside

What are we thinking for JT ($10-15 range w/ Mattison, Connor, etc) more? less?

 

[fantasycurse42]

In the 9th round, he's still out there. 4 picks to me. If he is still there, I'll roll the dice here.

ETA: 96th pick

 

[travdogg]

The problem becomes, let's say Taylor does play 6 games, and then quits. Why would you sign him as a FA, why would you want to sign a quitter?

Because the NFL is a business, and a cutthroat one.

Lest we forget, the Browns didn't just sign Deshaun Watson, but (a) gave up a million draft picks for the right to do so and (b) handed him 230 million fully-guaranteed American dollars. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that unless JT is keeping kidnapped children in a basement dungeon, whatever actions he has or will take this season pale in comparison.

Deshaun Watson was a borderline elite QB, something the Browns arguably haven't had since Otto Graham, give or take 1 year of Brian Sipe. They were desperate for a big-time elite franchise player. Jonathan Taylor is not that, not by a mile. No RB is, again not by a mile. This isn't an apples-to-apples argument, or even apples to oranges, its apples to motor oil.

Also, I'd argue quitting on the field, like gambling, is a bigger problem than anything Watson did, to the guys signing paychecks.

What's really getting me, is why not put Taylor on the active roster, and then if some Rb gets hurt or whatever. you can still trade him without him having to sit for 4 games. Its not like that 53rd spot matters.

This is a classic, both sides are stupid move. Taylor should have just shown up and played, and if he wasn't going to, then Indy should have traded him, or forced him to suit up. I highly doubt Taylor would actively play poorly, that would instantly kill his value going forward, and he'd never get paid.

Bad teams are bad for a reason, I guess.

I still stand by my theory that the Colts would rather win 3 games without Taylor and draft Marvin Harrison Jr.

Paying J Taylor and winning 6-8 games is actually bad for the franchise on multiple levels. Let's pay a guy early so he can hurt our chance to draft our former HOFer's son.



J Taylor overplayed his hand. If all they can get is a 2nd, they'll still get a second if dude wants to holdout and be traded next NFL draft.


PUP list is great. Colts can go 0-4 and nobody would blink an eye. Total ********, but that's business baby. Don't bite the hand that feeds.

I think that theory is pretty out there, especially the part about tanking to draft Harrison. Like, that would be the weirdest way to run a team. To win 3 games, the Colts would need Anthony Richardson to really suck, and like, why would they want that? He's more important than any 2024 pick will be, especially a WR.

The best shot scenario for Indy is some contender loses their RB for the season and offers a 2 for Taylor. I doubt they get more than that, and they'll get even less next offseason when there are SO MANY other options.

 

[travdogg]

There's a reason contracts in the NFL are non-guaranteed. Owners break them constantly to put guys out to pasture and most contracts are rife with void years/"funny money". Weird take to crap on Taylor for not "honoring" the contract.

I'd agree that its weird to crap on Taylor for not "Honoring" the contract, however, by not "honoring" the contract. the person who is getting the worst end of this is Taylor himself. I'm reminded of the expression of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Both Irsay and Taylor are being idiots, the difference is one of those guys is set for life. If Taylor had a season like 2021, he's still young enough where he gets a 3 or 4 year deal for 40-50 million. Maybe he still will, but the odds have drastic gone down, and this might be a disaster for Taylor.

 

[ghostguy123]

If Taylor is never going to play his best for the Colts ever again, why wouldn’t the Colts simply accept the best offer they received an move on? How do the Colts benefit by having a useless malcontent dragging the team down all season only to see him walk in 2024? Why not get something now instead of nothing later?

By “useless”, I’m referring to Taylor missing games and dogging it all season.

Perhaps they couldn't find a team willing to pay him what he wants

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Kinda feels like Indy and Irsay have no problem sabotaging him and his potential future earnings. It just feels more personal—like they have no problem screwing him if they don’t find anybody to give up a decent amount for him. If they activate him and he plays—he could easily just fake an injury. The true trade deadline hasn’t happened yet—so to me it looks like they are buying more time to see if they can move him before Taylor can purposely or accidentally hurt his value (through a real or fake injury)

 

[ghostguy123]

I think it deters other players from taking this path? Im guessing really

RBs anyway

 

[ghostguy123]

How much is Taylor due to earn this year?
It's not like Bell who had the 16 million tag.