Are you one of those people who are just contrarian for the sake of being so, or a Booker dynasty owner clinging to a fleeting hope that he will somehow be relevant? The writing is clearly on the wall for anyone who's played fantasy football for more than a couple years about how this Denver backfield is going to shake out.
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RB Royce Freeman, LAR (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Snorkelson
- Start date
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
How is it clear? Freeman is a 3rd Round Draft Pick and looks like a 3rd Round Pick so far.
They lost CJ Andersen and needed to bring in another body, which they did. Freeman doesn't have great speed, agility, or vision.
His best attribute is being an oversized Runningback who is average at many aspects of the game.
If you can point out to me where he trucks over a defender or uses his speed to get to the corner, maybe I could get excited.
But so far, I haven't seen a single play outside that draw play out of shotgun in Minnesota that suggests Freeman is more than just another guy.
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
has he?
IMO hes looked like the rookie rb with the best chance to be relevant in 2018. I'm contemplating him on my subscriber contest team
ETA
5/58 and 2 scores is hardly looking like a 3rd round rookie. if that's what your definition is then what has Booker looked like so far?
I'm not saying Freeman is a stud, but he is clearly better than Booker. which doesn't take much
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Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
What's impressed you? His ability to get tackled after first contact? His inability to get to the edge?
Or is it simply "Devontae Booker stinks"?
I see Freeman as a Frank Gore type player. Workman. He won’t be flashy but he has proven to be durable in college, hard nosed, and he can play all three downs. Put him on a defense first team that wants to control the clock like Denver and he has great potential. Obviously I’m taking Barkley over him but he is my next rookie rb off the board in redraft and I’d be very happy to have him as my rb2
Interseptopus
Footballguy
I see the best back in the backfield. if that means Booker stinks then so be it. the league is about opportunity. and Freeman isnt the most talented but he has one of the best opportunities
Elevencents
Footballguy
I liked him in the 5th but he has been creeping all the way up to late 3rd and I don’t quite like him that much. Much rather have Kerryon or Ingram in the 5th.
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
That's not even the right statline. He's 10/58/2 touchdowns
40% of those yards came on a 23 yard draw out of shotgun against the Vikings backups. You could have driven a truck through that hole. He does make a nice cut against a Vikings backup safety, I will give him that.
So running under center leaves him with 9 carries for 35 yards 3.88 YPC.
Devontae Booker has seen all of his carries running from under center and has 6 carries for 24 yards 4.0 YPC.
So running under center, the way a traditional offense is run. Both players are as even as you can get, with Booker getting the nod for being the better pass catcher.
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SameSongNDance
Footballguy
His height adjusted speed score puts him in the 86th percentile. His agility score 83rd. I think he has adequate speed, especially for his size. And his agility/footwork is his best trait IMO, again especially for his size. I don't think there's anything wrong with his vision either.
I'm already on record saying his ADP is getting to the point that it's too rich for me but I can envision a scenario in which he out touches Booker 70/30 rather easily. It's not like Freeman can't catch and I haven't heard any negatives about him in pass pro so it's not like he can't operate on 3rd downs. I do think Booker will come out of the gate getting a majority of the 3rd down work though.
Ultimately I think you're dying on the wrong hill. I mean, Booker has been so underwhelming that if Freeman doesn't work out I doubt Booker is the solution.
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
This is where my disconnect begins. Why? What have you seen from Freeman at this level that makes you think he will see 2x as many carries as Booker?
I'm seeing a ton of 3 yards and a cloud of dust. Believe me, I want to get excited about this guy.
Here's what Booker did against actual NFL competition last year. He's not this useless running back everyone imagines him to be because everyone has rookie fever.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TI-GVneAS50
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SameSongNDance
Footballguy
When given the opportunity Booker has been a negative efficiency runner by almost every conceivable measure. He doesn't have breakaway speed and his longest run is somehow 26 yards on 253 carries. He doesn't break tackles, doesn't evade tackles and he's already 26 years old. I don't know, I think I already know what he is. As Joseph said, "Book's book."
TheFanatic
Footballguy
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA compared to the guy with the 3.6 YPC for his CAREER? Freeman, in his second preseason game got carries 2, 3 and 4 after Booker for his token 1st carry as the "starter." Booker has many games where he could keep hitting that D until they were tired and still has 3.6 YPC. All Freeman has, really, is a few carries against the first team. You took that long run away from him as it was against the 2nd string, and then you still have 3.88. If he's getting 3.88 YPC at the start of the game, what do you think he would be getting in the 4th quarter against a D that's getting tired? Particularly against a RB of his size?
Game 2 of the preseason, Booker got the first carry and then was sent to the bench while the coaches go a look at Freeman. That's a pretty sizable growth in the trust the coaches have in Freeman. I keep seeing that Booker has the blocking skills. Seems to me that Freeman has been in there with the first team quite a bit when the starting QB is in there. Seems that they trust Freeman to block too. To me, that last factor is the only thing that will keep Booker as the starter.
It's not writing on the wall, my friend. It's big neon letters that stand two feet tall, and they say, "even 7 rounds later, Booker is not the guy to own here."
TheFanatic
Footballguy
I remember when SportsCenter would show Reggie Bush's three great runs of a game and in the end he would be 3.4 YPC for the game. The fact is, all those highlight runs end with a career 3.6 YPC.
Oh, and I LOVE that you say, "Anyone not impressed with Freeman's 3.3 YPC in his 2nd preseason game?" Wanna guess what Booker's highest YPC is as a starter? You got it. 3.3 YPC on 24 carries against the Chiefs in 2016.
His best YPC as a starter is 3.3. Booker as a starter brings down his YPC to 3.6. It's actually higher as the 3rd down back that he is. He is not a starter. We have 2 years of stats that show that. Running Backs don't come into their own very often in their 3rd year, but keep hoping.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
He's the one bumping the thread with terrible arguments (YPC in preseason games
) He brings this on himself.
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
I'm winning this argument, lmao. Wait and see, these words mean nothing.
I know I'm right.
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
Again, your biggest argument for Royce Freeman is that Devontae Booker stinks. You're completely ignoring the fact that Freeman is struggling to run under center.
From what I'm seeing in preseason, Freeman is a 3 yards and a cloud of dust type of running back. There's no explosion to his game. He's a fluid big man, that's all.
Here's a crazy idea to wrap your head around. But what if Freeman stinks too? What if you're burning a 4th rounder on what ends up being a tandem of two mediocre runningbacks in Denver?
That can't be though, right? Booker stinks! That means Freeman must be good.
If Booker is SO BAD, why does he have a higher YPC than Freeman from actual running formations?
Explain that one to me. If Booker is as bad as you're saying, he shouldn't have a higher YPC than Freeman running from under center.
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Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
@TheFanatic
Put your money where your mouth is. You want to disrespect me with your words, I'm going to teach you a lesson.
Make a bet with me. I'll be glad to take your money.
Put your money where your mouth is. You want to disrespect me with your words, I'm going to teach you a lesson.
Make a bet with me. I'll be glad to take your money.
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Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
Crazysight
Footballguy
"No burst." Ran a solid 4.54 40 at the combine at 229 pounds, more impressively registered a 4.49 shuttle and a 6.9 3 cone drill. Also squats 600 pounds, does 17 reps bench and had SIXTY rushing touchdowns over his 4 years in the Pac-12, already has two through just two preseason games (or 2 halves for that matter). The guys a truck and you wouldnt want to be between him and the endzone.
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Crazysight
Footballguy
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
I agree. Here's my write-up on him from him back in May.
LINK
"Above average talent in a great situation. Doesn't really play to his size. He will have one-year to sink or float, has potential to put up a few Alfred Morris type numbers on a grind it out - Denver team. Just another guy, imo. He suffers any type of lower body injury and he's done."
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
so you're going to be one of those guys who takes out one big run, just because?
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
I never took it out. Reread my post. It happened, you just don't cherry pick stats like that, lmao.so you're going to be one of those guys who takes out one big run, just because?
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Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
Respect. Learn it.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
so in regular season games, do RBS only run under center?I never took it out. Reread my post. It happened, you just don't cherry pick stats like that, lmao.
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
Is that what I said? Come on man, don't waste my time.so in regular season games, do RBS only run under center?
Shark Pool is becoming a dump. Where do these guys come from?
smh
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Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
Hard to believe I'm having conversations with adults right now. But I get it, I started playing fantasy when I was 16.
I could be talking with teenagers right now.
I could be talking with teenagers right now.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
hou were cherry picking stats to compare Freeman and Booker when they ran under center. as if to show that Freeman isnt the best rb on the team so far. but, if you want to clarify, by all means.
I hope you're right. I own no stock in this backfield and if Freeman sucks then one of the draft picks I own next year stands to be much more valuable
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
I wasn't cherry picking anything. Booker hasn't seen any carries out of shotgun.
Since it's such a small sample size, it makes the most sense to compare LIKE carries.
You don't compare the YPC average of a scatback with that of a short yardage back. This is in the same vein as that.
If I'm accurately evaluating who is doing more with the bulk of their carries, it's important to note outliers. I'm not going to compare a slot receiver to a deep threat.
The situations are too different to compare. Do you find this to be unfair? I figured since the majority of both backs carries are going to be from under center, those might be the most important to compare.
Does that make sense?
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
That's great, explain to him why you think it's okay to intentionally bend my words and laugh at me.
You reap what you sow and you've shown me a lot of disrespect. I'm just trying to talk football.
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Dismattle
Footballguy
Interseptopus
Footballguy
bend your words? disrespect? how?
I'm still waiting for that clarification. I'm sorry you're all bent out of shape over this and have gotten lots of other feedback from others already on how incorrect you are here. but I don't know how else to read your words above other than you are 1. taking his one big run out and 2. trying to look at one aspect of the game (running behind center) to try and show Booker "gets the nod", all the while trying to say you arent cherry picking stats when what you did above is the definition of doing just that.
I asked for clarification and all o got was insults and name calling
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Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
He's the one bumping the thread with terrible arguments (YPC in preseason games
so you're going to be one of those guys who takes out one big run, just because?
A ton of "excellent" responses here.so in regular season games, do RBS only run under center?
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
I never insulted you. You insulted me. Now you're lying about me. I did respond, look one post above this one.bend your words? disrespect? how?
I'm still waiting for that clarification. I'm sorry you're all bent out of shape over this and have gotten lots of other feedback from others already on how incorrect you are here. but I don't know how else to read your words above other than you are 1. taking his one big run out and 2. trying to look at one aspect of the game (running behind center) to try and show Booker "gets the nod", all the while trying to say you arent cherry picking stats when what you did above is the definition of doing just that.
I asked for clarification and all o got was insults and name calling
LINK
Interseptopus
Footballguy
referencing to me and saying the sharlpool is turning into a dump, and then on top of it calling me a teenager? man, do you read you own posts? this has to be trolling. I'm done... wont feed this troll any more
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
Uh, that comment about the Shark Pool was about you being juvenile and laughing at me to make me feel bad.
That's not an insult, it's an observation about the state of the board. Where other posters are laughing at me for having a different opinion.
If I was insulting you, you would know it. I truly think that the way I've been treated makes at least this thread a dump.
That's how I feel due to your actions. I have no animosity towards you, nor would I laugh at you over your fantasy football opinion. That's juvenile and I am an adult.
That's why I had to ask if you guys were teenagers. What adult is going to laugh at someone over fantasy football? Seriously.
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Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
@Dr. Dan
You went out of your way to quotr me, just to LAUGH AT ME. I respond to your behavior by calling the SP a dump because I found your behavior juvenile.
Somehow, that's me insulting you? You went out of your way to quote me just to laugh at me and intentionally bend my words.
You know exactly what you're doing.
You went out of your way to quotr me, just to LAUGH AT ME. I respond to your behavior by calling the SP a dump because I found your behavior juvenile.
Somehow, that's me insulting you? You went out of your way to quote me just to laugh at me and intentionally bend my words.
You know exactly what you're doing.
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Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
There should be an option in your Mobile Browser to view in desktop mode.
Hope that helps, I'm ignoring a few of these guys too. Especially the guys who think it's cool to laugh at people and try to make them feel bad over fantasy football.
ETA
Try this link.
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
barackdhouse
Footballguy
Good god this thread is ugly. Here's my ten cents opinion to see if we can get back on track. Denver defense is nasty. Freeman is going to get all the run out the clock carries, all the goal line carries, and somewhere between 60/40 and 70/30 of the between the 20s stuff. I'm sure Booker and Lindsay/Henderson will come in on 3rd downs. Freeman will get ~30-40 catches as a result of being a multidimensional threat on 1st and 2nd downs. Seems like a good bet for mid RB2 numbers, with weekly upside.
Everyone in this thread be way cooler if you want to participate here. Respect the other posters and argue your points and back them in a way that's civil. If you can't do that, find another board.
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Tanner9919
Footballguy
Freeman looks legit. he should easily garner the majority of the work in this backfield, could do what Alex Collins did last season in Baltimore..so you're looking at a 10-15 best RB in FF this season.
well worth a mid round flyer.
well worth a mid round flyer.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Sure - the issue is however that the guy going in the 11th round has far less upside than the guy going in Round 4. Perhaps they will split the workload early in the season, but if Freeman shows to be the superior back as the season wears on, that split will go more and more in his favor - which could eventually make your 11th round selection a candidate to drop to the waiver pool.
Now if you're high on Booker then he's surely a good gamble in Round 11 (obviously far less risk0 but while draft "value" is surely important this game comes down to production ultimately and value doesn't earn you fantasy points unless the production comes with it.
Ask yourself, by Week 4 which back is more likely to be earning the bigger chunk of snaps?
