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RB Tevin Coleman, SF (1 Viewer)
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fredsavage
Footballguy
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pxCQl5EwkGM
YEAH BUT
dude makes good points. I'm sure the Indiana oline are full of beast road graders and Coleman is a product of the system
YEAH BUT
dude makes good points. I'm sure the Indiana oline are full of beast road graders and Coleman is a product of the system
VarsityBlues123
Footballguy
while that is a point that its not a death nail i did say at his price meaning in this draft.
identikit
Footballguy
Shutout
Footballguy
ZBS is ALL about vision and decisiveness. Great speed is just a great bonus.
If Coleman has these three things, he will fare well.
FUBAR
Footballguy
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
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steelcityman
Footballguy
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
I went with coleman over abdullah. Pretty much because im anti lion. And anyone who dominates at indiana of all places is pretty good imo
Coleman has a really high upside but he needs to work on the basics. Every play isn't going to be a homerun.
He can be Darren McFadden or he can be Demarco Murray. It all depends on how he develops from here on out. But when it comes to hitting a crease for a homerun there isn't a back in this class that does it any better.
This guy has serious jets but I question his ability to get the dirty yards on 3rd and short.
He can be Darren McFadden or he can be Demarco Murray. It all depends on how he develops from here on out. But when it comes to hitting a crease for a homerun there isn't a back in this class that does it any better.
This guy has serious jets but I question his ability to get the dirty yards on 3rd and short.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
You are correct that Portis was very elusive, especially before his injury where he seemed to have lost some of that.
Just saying that elusiveness isn't a prerequisite for a RB to be successful in the ZBS. I think it is a bonus for sure.
When I watch RB elusiveness is something I look for and I tend to like RB who can make defenders miss a lot more than RB who cannot. A few years back this was the primary characteristic or trait I would look for in RB. Ten years ago I would have nothing to do with RB that couldn't juke a defender consistently. For example Michael Bush or Ron Dayne. But looking at yardage gained and points scored by players like this over time, I gradually began to accept that RB can be successful in ways other ways than elusiveness. Although I still favor that ability very highly in a RB.
I have not seen any great juke moves from Coleman but I have mostly only watched games after the toe injury. So that made me wonder if he might play differently otherwise.
I have seen good vision and the ability to set up angles and explode through small creases from Coleman He makes defenders miss with his speed rather than setting them up with fakes and jukes.
eta- There were a couple other points made in the thread that I will just address here instead multiple posts.
In regards to concern about his toe injury. This is something that has concerned me as well. My concern is more about the risk of long term damage because he was playing with a broken toe. He had a brace made for him by doctors to isolate the toe and protect it from further injury. But I still feel that was a risk for him to keep playing through it. He was very productive even with the injury, so that leads me to think the risk of further injury by playing through it was considered an acceptable risk. He played very well through the injury which is a testament to his toughness and he didn't suffer aditional injury from playing through it, so that risk I consider to be past. The injury did not seem to impact his draft value very much, so I am going to trust the Falcons medical staff here that this isn't a long term concern.
I already addressed the elusiveness issue. Again this is not a requirement for a RB to be an ankle breaker to be effective in the zone blocking system. If it was then players like Ron Dayne, Mike Anderson and many others would not have been effective in the system. Vision and timing are important traits to be effective in the system. I will just go out on a limb here and say that Shanahan would not have drafted Coleman if he didn't believe that Coleman would fit their system.
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jurb26
Footballguy
IMO, the most important traits for a RB in ZB systems are great feet and vision. Portis had both. The ability to visualize the hole, sift through the the line and get there is very dependent on foot speed. Foot quickness and vision allow a RB to quickly identify the emerging gap and burst thru it.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
You sound smart. Does ColemAn have those things? Is he the next Portis?
jurb26
Footballguy
I don't believe so. Vision, maybe. Foot speed no. Maybe he works out maybe not.
I don't think he's a Portis type runner.
I like his decisiveness and ability to put a foot in the ground and get up field. I think he's in too much of a hurry and doesn't let blocking develop, though. He doesn't have the foot quickness of a Portis to idle down at the handoff and then burst. He's more one speed. He's got good change of direction in the open field and willingly lowers his shoulder.
Portis is a high bar.
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Sabertooth
Footballguy
He sure is. Who do you like between Yeldon and Coleman
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Not sure about all the 10 yard demarcations, but I think he led the nation (or was high up among the leaders) in 20-30-40-50-60-70-80-90 yard scores, so Coleman must have been doing something right.
And as has been pointed out, this was for Indiana, where everybody in the stadium knew he was getting the ball, yet teams still couldn't stop him, or even slow him down in most cases.
If he had started for Alabama or Wisconsin and not dealt with a broken foot, not a stretch to think he could have put up even more than 2,000 yards (not sure about the 2,500 Gordon did, I think he did better against at least one common opponent, but Coleman did better against a couple - but again, flip teams, Coleman likely does better than in Indiana, and Gordon worse than at Wisconsin).
And as has been pointed out, this was for Indiana, where everybody in the stadium knew he was getting the ball, yet teams still couldn't stop him, or even slow him down in most cases.
If he had started for Alabama or Wisconsin and not dealt with a broken foot, not a stretch to think he could have put up even more than 2,000 yards (not sure about the 2,500 Gordon did, I think he did better against at least one common opponent, but Coleman did better against a couple - but again, flip teams, Coleman likely does better than in Indiana, and Gordon worse than at Wisconsin).
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Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
the problem with that is I think the long runs get weighted too heavily.
once he gets past the linebacker level, whether due to talent or giant hole, he's usually then running away from college kids in the open field.
yeah, it's better to be fast than slow, but once you get maybe 10 yds I'd put less emphasis on the rest, as I don't think he gets the opportunities at the pro level, and running away in the open field probably won't translate as well.
but the problem is that the last 30 yds get weighted more than the first 10.
if he can't get as far as the second level in the nfl he obviously won't be in line to bust off all those long td.
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trader jake
Footballguy
If Antoine Smith could find a way to bust off the occasional long run, I'm guessing Tevin Coleman will as well.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
I'd imagine coleman buyers are hoping for more than 2 long runs and 144 yards in a season
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
well, coleman busted off a 90 yd td and a 50 yd td, along with another 86/1 on the other 25 carries.How did he and Gordon do against a like opponent in Ohio State (the National Champs)???
gordon only managed 76 yds on his 26 carries -- his team getting blown out 59-0
gordon one upped him with a few other common opponents, though, where maybe coleman didn't bust off the crazy long td
if I have this stat right, I believe chris johnson popped off a total 11 50 yd td --- his first 6 yrs
and he's pretty fast
jamaal charles had 6 over that same period
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
This and the follow up posts are a good line of inquiry. It is important for the thread, imo, to consider his strengths and weaknesses from as many angles as possible.
All I would add is that there have certainly been fast RBs before that didn't do what he has, averaging 40+ yards a score (with 15 TDs in 2014) has to be pretty rare, among his college RB peers - and again, on a team without an OL in the same class as Wisconsisn (or Alabama, or their skill position weapons), and with a broken foot for a good chunk of the season, to "boot".
ATL could be a great destination for him, not only due to Shanahan's ZBS (if he should prove a good fit), but because of the skill position weapons, he probably never sees eight in the box. While he doesn't have Portis like wiggle in and through the hole, I have seen him in situations, when he has one man to beat in the open field (the safety, usually), and he does it. He doesn't necessarily use jukes, but seems to have a good instinct or knack for how to put himself in position to defeat the angles of DBs, as I believe Biabreakable did a good job breaking down, describing and explaining (having to do with field awareness, and seeing how the secondary recovery positions will unfold before they happen).
It is true we shouldn't expect him to get to the second and third level as often in the NFL. Some scouts have likened his style, in terms of staying on schedule in down and distance terms, as somewhat like Sanders, you may have to live with some negative or non-productive plays, to get some of the home runs. If/when he does get there, I only saw once or twice when he was caught from behind. For a fast player (sub-4.4 at pro day, if a legit, reliable time?), he may actually have build up speed and get faster the further he gets downfield. I imagine he may be faster than some other 4.4X RBs and DBs, BEYOND 40 YARDS, partly explaining the prolific distance scores. Typically we think of the 40 as a useful "univeral" measure across positions, but the 10 yard split might be more important for OL. OLB Terrell Suggs (serial, 6 X Pro Bowler) ran a notoriously slow 4.84 40 time for a pass rusher, but the BAL HC or DC quipped that would be a bigger problem if he had to run 40 yards to get to the QB. In Coleman's case, his speed after 40 yards could be what separates him (if he's even, he's leavin), and the source of all those 40+, and even 60+ yard scores?
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Sabertooth
Footballguy
I see what you did there.
12punch
Footballguy
Before you guys get all overeager to bust balls have you considered that maybe he's scottish
lod01
Footballguy
Redo. What he said.Kool-Aid Larry said:well, coleman busted off a 90 yd td and a 50 yd td, along with another 86/1 on the other 25 carries.pizzatyme said:How did he and Gordon do against a like opponent in Ohio State (the National Champs)???
gordon only managed 76 yds on his 26 carries -- his team getting blown out 59-0
gordon one upped him with a few other common opponents, though, where maybe coleman didn't bust off the crazy long td
if I have this stat right, I believe chris johnson popped off a total 11 50 yd td --- his first 6 yrs
and he's pretty fast
jamaal charles had 6 over that same period
cr8f
Footballguy
cr8f said:
If only college mirrored the NFL.How did he and Gordon do against a like opponent in Ohio State (the National Champs)???
pizzatyme
Footballguy
Sure would be great. Obviously it doesn't for most, however it's all we have to go on at this point.cr8f said:If only college mirrored the NFL.How did he and Gordon do against a like opponent in Ohio State (the National Champs)???
Nero
Footballguy
I think McFadden is the perfect comp for Coleman. Not very creative and dependent on straight line speed. He is very capable of having a big season. He is not a grinder though. Eventually he will be replaced by a player who will consistently get the tough yards. Freeman is pedestrian, so it looks good for him this year. I'd buy starting at pick 14 and sell if he has a good year because overall I'm not a fan.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Ryan Mathews, McFadden, DeMarco, Tevin Coleman is very similar to these players, very good fit for the Shanny/Kubiak style. I don't think Freeman is.
Selling after a good rookie season could be an option.
gianmarco
Footballguy
In that highlight video, Coleman is completely UNTOUCHED in about 80-85% of those runs. To his credit, the times he was, he broke through some nice tackle attempts and arm tackles, but there's very little lateral agility seen on any of those runs, IMO. There's no doubt he's fast when he gets going, but he's not going to see holes like that in the NFL and just get to run in a straight line really, really fast.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Didn't re-watch the whole thing, but in the first three plays, he either broke tackles and/or had to elude multiple defenders (at times flashing lateral agility)? Sometimes he contributes to and plays an active role in the fact that he isn't touched. I dunno, sometimes it seems like people see what they expect to see (no doubt I fall into this category at times and am not exempting myself
). I definitely wouldn't say he has Barry Sanders-like jukes or elusiveness, but he isn't exactly a speeded up version of a Shonn Green, straight-line stiff, either. He looks to me like he has superior lateral agility and elusiveness to Knile Davis, and may be nearly as fast (though not as much of a freakish size/speed specimen, Davis is 230 lbs.), for what that is worth.Of course the competition will be better in the NFL, that is a given. But he could do worse than his 7.5 Y/C average in 2014, and still have room to do a lot of damage. Playing in an offense where defenses will be HEAVILY distracted by Ryan, Julio and White, he may see more creases than he would in a lesser passing offense. There are times when an NFL RB is presented with the opportunity to just beat one defender and than be off to the races. I think there will be times he is capable of doing that, and if so, he isn't going to be caught from behind too often, even in the NFL.
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bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
His surrounding cast will be much better too, Indiana is a football wastelandDidn't re-watch the whole thing, but in the first three plays, he either broke tackles and/or had to elude multiple defenders (at times flashing lateral agility)? Sometimes he contributes to and plays an active role in the fact that he isn't touched. I dunno, sometimes it seems like people see what they expect to see (no doubt I fall into this category at times and am not exempting myself
Of course the competition will be better in the NFL, that is a given. But he could do worse than his 7.5 Y/C average in 2014, and still have room to do a lot of damage. Playing in an offense where defenses will be HEAVILY distracted by Ryan, Julio and White, he may see more creases than he would in a lesser passing offense. There are times when an NFL RB is presented with the opportunity to just beat one defender and than be off to the races. I think there will be times he is capable of doing that, and if so, he isn't going to be caught from behind too often, even in the NFL.
gianmarco
Footballguy
You should rewatch the whole thing. Those first two runs are about the only ones he broke any tackles. I didn't go into that expecting to see anything. Rewatch the video and look how many gaping holes he runs through or how many times he's able to just use his speed to avoid being touched. And even in those first two runs, it's more of him turning toward the sideline and running fast than making any quick cuts or changes of direction in traffic.Didn't re-watch the whole thing, but in the first three plays, he either broke tackles and/or had to elude multiple defenders (at times flashing lateral agility)? Sometimes he contributes to and plays an active role in the fact that he isn't touched. I dunno, sometimes it seems like people see what they expect to see (no doubt I fall into this category at times and am not exempting myself
Of course the competition will be better in the NFL, that is a given. But he could do worse than his 7.5 Y/C average in 2014, and still have room to do a lot of damage. Playing in an offense where defenses will be HEAVILY distracted by Ryan, Julio and White, he may see more creases than he would in a lesser passing offense. There are times when an NFL RB is presented with the opportunity to just beat one defender and than be off to the races. I think there will be times he is capable of doing that, and if so, he isn't going to be caught from behind too often, even in the NFL.
Knile Davis is a good comparison, IMO, whom I actually like as a runner. The difference being that Knile is much bigger, as you pointed out, and even faster.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Sorry about the expectation comment, as I said, I included myself, it was more a comment on the realities of subjective perception as I see things. You mean you literally never saw him run before seeing this clip? Speaking only for myself, if I have seen RBs before, it would be difficult to come in with absolutely no preconcieved expectations.You should rewatch the whole thing. Those first two runs are about the only ones he broke any tackles. I didn't go into that expecting to see anything. Rewatch the video and look how many gaping holes he runs through or how many times he's able to just use his speed to avoid being touched. And even in those first two runs, it's more of him turning toward the sideline and running fast than making any quick cuts or changes of direction in traffic.Didn't re-watch the whole thing, but in the first three plays, he either broke tackles and/or had to elude multiple defenders (at times flashing lateral agility)? Sometimes he contributes to and plays an active role in the fact that he isn't touched. I dunno, sometimes it seems like people see what they expect to see (no doubt I fall into this category at times and am not exempting myself
Of course the competition will be better in the NFL, that is a given. But he could do worse than his 7.5 Y/C average in 2014, and still have room to do a lot of damage. Playing in an offense where defenses will be HEAVILY distracted by Ryan, Julio and White, he may see more creases than he would in a lesser passing offense. There are times when an NFL RB is presented with the opportunity to just beat one defender and than be off to the races. I think there will be times he is capable of doing that, and if so, he isn't going to be caught from behind too often, even in the NFL.
Knile Davis is a good comparison, IMO, whom I actually like as a runner. The difference being that Knile is much bigger, as you pointed out, and even faster.
That is the great thing about the board and threads like these, others can filter through different subjective perceptions, and sometimes a consensus emerges. He showed elusiveness on the third run also, imo one reason he wasn't touched, and it was in the middle of the field (albeit subtle angles, but revealing vision and instincts about how the play was going to unfold and where he needed to be at different times to split multiple defenders). Fast runners can get to the sideline, even in the NFL. I did note Davis is probably faster as well as bigger (technically Coleman's foot injury precluded an official 40 time at the combine, but I think Davis clocked a sub-4.4 which is stupid at 230 lbs., and that would be a very high, and unlikely bar to best). But I think Coleman may be more elusive and not as straightlinish, so that could compensate for not being as big.
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Sabertooth
Footballguy
I wouldn't take him there either. I'm sitting at ten and really hoping he goes before I pick.
Perriman, Dgb or Agholor for me all the way at 10.
Perriman, Dgb or Agholor for me all the way at 10.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
In one PPR draft took him at 1.13 when Yeldon and all those WRs were already off the board, I think.
In another non-PPR draft where RBs are pushed up and Coleman was gone at 1.13, had my pick of the first two WRs and took Perriman (off-field risk of DGB was a big concern for me, didn't want to roll the dice with a much cleaner WR like Perriman there, arguably as talented and ready to step into an already well defined, Torrey Smith-like role).
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
From a link in the article Faust just posted:
NFL Draft 2015: A rebuttal of The Falcoholic's concerns regarding Tevin Coleman
This happened last year with Bishop Sankey where Waldman says that Sankey was not a good fit for the ZBS even though the Huskies primarily utilized a ZBS that Sankey was very effective in. Not only does he criticize the RB with these comments, he essentially is saying that the coaches don't know what they are doing either, because they are using players that do not fit their system and being drafted by NFL teams that use the ZBS. So this is essentially saying that the NFL scouting departments and coaching staff do not know what they are doing either.
cr8f
Footballguy
Have to take all these evaluations and make the final call yourself. I tend to trust the NFL drafters more than a lot of fantasy evaluators.From a link in the article Faust just posted:
NFL Draft 2015: A rebuttal of The Falcoholic's concerns regarding Tevin Coleman
This happened last year with Bishop Sankey where Waldman says that Sankey was not a good fit for the ZBS even though the Huskies primarily utilized a ZBS that Sankey was very effective in. Not only does he criticize the RB with these comments, he essentially is saying that the coaches don't know what they are doing either, because they are using players that do not fit their system and being drafted by NFL teams that use the ZBS. So this is essentially saying that the NFL scouting departments and coaching staff do not know what they are doing either.
Penguin
Footballguy
Sankey was piss poor last year, I don't see how that's an indictment on Waldmen's scouting abilityFrom a link in the article Faust just posted:
NFL Draft 2015: A rebuttal of The Falcoholic's concerns regarding Tevin Coleman
This happened last year with Bishop Sankey where Waldman says that Sankey was not a good fit for the ZBS even though the Huskies primarily utilized a ZBS that Sankey was very effective in. Not only does he criticize the RB with these comments, he essentially is saying that the coaches don't know what they are doing either, because they are using players that do not fit their system and being drafted by NFL teams that use the ZBS. So this is essentially saying that the NFL scouting departments and coaching staff do not know what they are doing either.
Fresh Prince of Bel Nor
Footballguy
Seriously...what a bizarre example to use to try and prove your point. Sankey was brutal.Sankey was piss poor last year, I don't see how that's an indictment on Waldmen's scouting abilityFrom a link in the article Faust just posted:
NFL Draft 2015: A rebuttal of The Falcoholic's concerns regarding Tevin Coleman
This happened last year with Bishop Sankey where Waldman says that Sankey was not a good fit for the ZBS even though the Huskies primarily utilized a ZBS that Sankey was very effective in. Not only does he criticize the RB with these comments, he essentially is saying that the coaches don't know what they are doing either, because they are using players that do not fit their system and being drafted by NFL teams that use the ZBS. So this is essentially saying that the NFL scouting departments and coaching staff do not know what they are doing either.
Faust
MVP
Tevin Coleman gets reps with the first-team offense:
http://atlantafalcons.blog.ajc.com/2015/08/01/tevin-coleman-gets-reps-with-the-first-team-offense/
http://atlantafalcons.blog.ajc.com/2015/08/01/tevin-coleman-gets-reps-with-the-first-team-offense/
