Redacted Pages Of 9/11 Report Show Saudi Official Met Hijackers In LA (1 Viewer)

[beer 30]

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2016/04/11/60-minutes-lawmakers-say-redacted-pages-of-911-report-shows-saudi-official-met-hijackers-in-la/

Honda?

 

[[scooter]]

Assuming it's true.........now what?

 

[cstu]

I'm shoc..., er, the opposite of that.

 

[The General]

It's as if they have some undue influence over us.

 

[jon_mx]

In all fairness, Hillary selling influence to foreign interest does help reduce the US trade deficit. 

 

[The Future Champs]

This has been speculated on for years but mostly dismissed as crackpot conspiracy theory.

There are also claims that Saudi Arabia helped finance the Benghazi attacks and that emails about it were among those deleted by Hillary.

Saudi Arabia is also one of if not the worst regime supported by the U.S. Beheadings of political opponents, subjugation of women, abuses by religious police yadda yadda yadda.

Great friends these guys.

Update - this should read "There are claims that Saudi Islamists helped finance the Benghazi attacks."    The government was not implicated in the article that bananafish linked in a different thread.  

btw, on a side note, isn't "Saudi Islamist" a bit redundant?   

 

[skol asylum]

It's as if they have some undue influence over us.

Here's a few million dollars. Care to refine that statement?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

The fckd up (and confusing) stuff we do over in the middle east is amazing.

But hey, the military complex is happy.

 

[rockaction]

In addition to being one of the most hostile regimes towards the U.S. in recent memory by its citizenry and likely its government, Saudi Arabia sits on the United Nations Human Rights Council, because, of course it does. I figured I'd just take the time to post that here. 

The country is a disgrace, our involvement with them seems to be a disgrace (at least in this naif's view), and their involvement with anything dubbed "human rights" is further proof that in our postmodern world, Orwell is still relevant because words and traditional definitions seem not to mean anything.  

 

[pantherclub]

Well, we invade them of course.

No, the Bush Doctrine dictates we move on Turkey.  Get some, with us or against Turks

 

[cstu]

The fckd up (and confusing) stuff we do over in the middle east is amazing.

But hey, the military complex is happy.

And the oil companies.

I've been banging the drum forever that our reliance on oil for fuel is a national security issue. The day we no longer need to burn oil in our cars will be a massive win for the country. 

Last year we used 7 billion barrels of oil - when oil was $150 a barrel that was over $1 trillion and much of that when to countries in the Middle East.  At $45 a barrel we are spending $315 billion on oil.  About 76% of the oil we use is as fuel so at current oil prices we could reduce our spending on oil to around $75 billion a year if we switched to alternative energy (electric and hydrogen) for our vehicles.

The trillions of dollars we spent in Iraq to maintain our supply of oil could have been spent developing electric/hydrogen fuel cell technology and building a nationwide infrastructure.

 

[cstu]

If I had the money I'd run an ad every day that shows Joe Sixpack at a gas pump watching the numbers roll up followed by ISIS members collecting payment for their oil and planning attacks on the U.S.  Maybe then the average American could put two and two together.

 

[jonessed]

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2016/04/11/60-minutes-lawmakers-say-redacted-pages-of-911-report-shows-saudi-official-met-hijackers-in-la/

Honda?

I still can't believe that classified information was being shared between a family friend with no security clearance on an AOL account and the Secretary of State via a server in her house.  And the whole thing was hacked by a guy who, with some minor research, guessed the password.

What kind of operation are we running here?

 

[Cold Dead Hands]

If I had the money I'd run an ad every day that shows Joe Sixpack at a gas pump watching the numbers roll up followed by ISIS members collecting payment for their oil and planning attacks on the U.S.  Maybe then the average American could put two and two together.

The average American understands the connection. The average American cannot create the alternative energy sources or technologies, nor build the infrastructure needed. Pretty sure that majority of people in the US would be happy to cut ties with the Middle East.

 

[Buddy Ball 2K3]

And the oil companies.

I've been banging the drum forever that our reliance on oil for fuel is a national security issue. The day we no longer need to burn oil in our cars will be a massive win for the country. 

Last year we used 7 billion barrels of oil - when oil was $150 a barrel that was over $1 trillion and much of that when to countries in the Middle East.  At $45 a barrel we are spending $315 billion on oil.  About 76% of the oil we use is as fuel so at current oil prices we could reduce our spending on oil to around $75 billion a year if we switched to alternative energy (electric and hydrogen) for our vehicles.

The trillions of dollars we spent in Iraq to maintain our supply of oil could have been spent developing electric/hydrogen fuel cell technology and building a nationwide infrastructure.

Really wish everyone would get behind CNG vehicles. 

 

[BigSteelThrill]

And the oil companies.

I've been banging the drum forever that our reliance on oil for fuel is a national security issue. The day we no longer need to burn oil in our cars will be a massive win for the country. 

Last year we used 7 billion barrels of oil - when oil was $150 a barrel that was over $1 trillion and much of that when to countries in the Middle East.  At $45 a barrel we are spending $315 billion on oil.  About 76% of the oil we use is as fuel so at current oil prices we could reduce our spending on oil to around $75 billion a year if we switched to alternative energy (electric and hydrogen) for our vehicles.

The trillions of dollars we spent in Iraq to maintain our supply of oil could have been spent developing electric/hydrogen fuel cell technology and building a nationwide infrastructure.

I brought this up in regards to the cash for clunkers program thread.

 

[jonessed]

And the oil companies.

I've been banging the drum forever that our reliance on oil for fuel is a national security issue. The day we no longer need to burn oil in our cars will be a massive win for the country. 

Last year we used 7 billion barrels of oil - when oil was $150 a barrel that was over $1 trillion and much of that when to countries in the Middle East.  At $45 a barrel we are spending $315 billion on oil.  About 76% of the oil we use is as fuel so at current oil prices we could reduce our spending on oil to around $75 billion a year if we switched to alternative energy (electric and hydrogen) for our vehicles.

The trillions of dollars we spent in Iraq to maintain our supply of oil could have been spent developing electric/hydrogen fuel cell technology and building a nationwide infrastructure.

Switching to electric vehicles isn't cheaper than gas.  There is no money saved there.

We spent a trillion on infrastructure.  It was called the stimulus.  Unfortunately, it did jack for our energy grid.  We can't even properly incorporate a meager amount of solar energy (which still requires the importation of rare earth metals).

We should focus on being as self-reliant as possible, but all key materials for generating energy are international commodities.  That's not going to change unless we roll back decades of environmental protections.

Our best source of energy, nuclear, was killed off by environmentalists.  They better get used to fracking natural gas and oil now because that's our primary domestic source for decades to come.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Switching to electric vehicles isn't cheaper than gas.  There is no money saved there.

We spent a trillion on infrastructure.  It was called the stimulus.  Unfortunately, it did jack for our energy grid.  We can't even properly incorporate a meager amount of solar energy (which still requires the importation of rare earth metals).

We should focus on being as self-reliant as possible, but all key materials for generating energy are international commodities.  That's not going to change unless we roll back decades of environmental protections.

Thought the gist was more about national security.

 

[jonessed]

Thought the gist was more about national security.

It's important to have self-reliant sources of energy for national security.  I don't think it matters what those are.  We don't require the import of oil, but it's still a global commodity.  Solar power, wind power, efficient batteries, etc. all require commodities that are largely imported and globally traded.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Ok ok, why don't we look at the claim here. What do we know?

Guy who was an employee of the SA consulate had a no-show job at an aviation company, who met with 2 of the hijackers (were these team leaders or not? I think not?) twice:

- Once at the mosque.

- Once at a restaurant.

Anything else?

eta - Ok this is something:

He was denied reentry to the U.S. in 2003 for suspected terrorist ties.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

the two Saudi nationals found a way to gain access to housing and flight lessons upon their arrival despite “extremely limited language skills and no experience with Western culture.”

- This stuff gets a little JFK'ish - how in the world did these two Arabs manage to 1. get an apartment and 2. get flight lessons? All sorts of people with limited English skils do no. 1, almost everybody who comes here actually, and what did no. 2 take back in 2000 or so?

 

[General Malaise]

Switching to electric vehicles isn't cheaper than gas.  There is no money saved there.

We spent a trillion on infrastructure.  It was called the stimulus.  Unfortunately, it did jack for our energy grid.  We can't even properly incorporate a meager amount of solar energy (which still requires the importation of rare earth metals).

We should focus on being as self-reliant as possible, but all key materials for generating energy are international commodities.  That's not going to change unless we roll back decades of environmental protections.

Our best source of energy, nuclear, was killed off by environmentalists.  They better get used to fracking natural gas and oil now because that's our primary domestic source for decades to come.

Which rare earth elements are you referring to regarding solar energy?  

United States was 2nd in 2014 in the production of rare earths, but the largest mine is operated by a company that declared bankruptcy.  Not sure what the future holds, but prices plummeted after China created an artificial bubble...they are happy to export here or anywhere now.

And the US is still the world's largest consumer of uranium.  16% of our energy continues to come from nuclear.  We haven't killed it off completely, but I agree, it should contribute more of our energy here.

 

[beer 30]

Us essentially stopping domestic oil production a year ago was thanks to our friends turning on the spigot full bore. Let them flood the world with cheap oil keeping the price artificially low in the hopes of running the oil producers in the US out of business. Just means we are sitting on that oil that much longer and it continues to be our strategic reserve. At some point Saudi Arabia is going to implode. That populace has been trained to expect a certain way of life solely funded by oil. They will literally tear each other apart as that slowly dries up and the government subsidies go with it. Sitting back on a large stockpile of oil and watching it happen from afar will be satisfaction enough for me. Sadly I won't see it in my lifetime but it's not that far down the road.

 

[General Malaise]

Watched some of the Frontline show about Saudi.  What a horror show that country is.  

 

[beer 30]

Watched some of the Frontline show about Saudi.  What a horror show that country is.  

But they are changing http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3537754/Saudi-orders-kinder-gentler-religious-police.html


Be nice! Saudi Arabia strips its super strict religious police of powers of arrest and orders it to be 'kinder and gentler' in enforcing Islamic rules

 

[msommer]

It's important to have self-reliant sources of energy for national security.  I don't think it matters what those are.  We don't require the import of oil, but it's still a global commodity.  Solar power, wind power, efficient batteries, etc. all require commodities that are largely imported and globally traded.

I think it is important to look on the knock on effects of lower oil demand due to a switch to other technologies. Lower demand will mean lower prices which will give states like Saudi, Iran and others much less money with which to be 'creative' geopolitically. On the other hand lower demand will cost US jobs in the oil sector.

Can renewable energy create sufficient numbers of permanent replacement jobs? Probably not in the production and installation sector, but there are wider sectors that may help, e.g. batteries.

Specifically for wind not sure which global commodities you are referring to (steel, copper?) - on the other hand at present I at least am not aware of any steen producers or copper miners sponsoring global terrorism. That could obviously change once we start buying from Brazil, Australia and Peru...

Us essentially stopping domestic oil production a year ago was thanks to our friends turning on the spigot full bore. Let them flood the world with cheap oil keeping the price artificially low in the hopes of running the oil producers in the US out of business. Just means we are sitting on that oil that much longer and it continues to be our strategic reserve. At some point Saudi Arabia is going to implode. That populace has been trained to expect a certain way of life solely funded by oil. They will literally tear each other apart as that slowly dries up and the government subsidies go with it. Sitting back on a large stockpile of oil and watching it happen from afar will be satisfaction enough for me. Sadly I won't see it in my lifetime but it's not that far down the road.

The bolded is demontrably untrue. Saudi production has not increased significantly. US production has.

oil price development
US oil production
Saudi oil production

That said, sitting on a stockpile of oil is not a bad thing. It can be used for a bunch of other stuff than burning (such as plastics). But, in the move away from using fossil fuels new technologies may render these uses (at least partly) obsolete as well 

 

[AnonymousBob]

I still can't believe that classified information was being shared between a family friend with no security clearance on an AOL account and the Secretary of State via a server in her house.  And the whole thing was hacked by a guy who, with some minor research, guessed the password.

What kind of operation are we running here?

Well there's classified and then there's classified. So it's okay. 

 

[jonessed]

Which rare earth elements are you referring to regarding solar energy?  

United States was 2nd in 2014 in the production of rare earths, but the largest mine is operated by a company that declared bankruptcy.  Not sure what the future holds, but prices plummeted after China created an artificial bubble...they are happy to export here or anywhere now.

And the US is still the world's largest consumer of uranium.  16% of our energy continues to come from nuclear.  We haven't killed it off completely, but I agree, it should contribute more of our energy here.

Tellurium and Indium.

They are global commodities like anything else.  We will be dependent on the rise and fall of the markets.

 

[jonessed]

I think it is important to look on the knock on effects of lower oil demand due to a switch to other technologies. Lower demand will mean lower prices which will give states like Saudi, Iran and others much less money with which to be 'creative' geopolitically. On the other hand lower demand will cost US jobs in the oil sector.

Can renewable energy create sufficient numbers of permanent replacement jobs? Probably not in the production and installation sector, but there are wider sectors that may help, e.g. batteries.

Specifically for wind not sure which global commodities you are referring to (steel, copper?) - on the other hand at present I at least am not aware of any steen producers or copper miners sponsoring global terrorism. That could obviously change once we start buying from Brazil, Australia and Peru...

The bolded is demontrably untrue. Saudi production has not increased significantly. US production has.

oil price development
US oil production
Saudi oil production

That said, sitting on a stockpile of oil is not a bad thing. It can be used for a bunch of other stuff than burning (such as plastics). But, in the move away from using fossil fuels new technologies may render these uses (at least partly) obsolete as well 

Neodymium for the magnets.

The Saudis have by far the largest oil production capacity.  That's why they have the most control over the price.  They can ramp up or ramp down quickly.  They did not adjust to our boom which is why the price crashed.

You are correct in that they didn't "turn on the spigot".  They simply maintained a high level of output despite a global glut to maintain market share.  Economically, they don't really need to do that.

Edit:  The problem with the rare earth metals isn't that they can't be replaced or are rare (some are), but that they are largely mined elsewhere and are required in the most efficient solar cells/magnets.  We would need a steady supply if we were to ramp up production in these areas.

 

[General Malaise]

Tellurium and Indium.

They are global commodities like anything else.  We will be dependent on the rise and fall of the markets.

Those aren't rare earth elements.  They are minor metals; by-product metals and in the case of tellurium, the US and Canada are the leading producers.  The US has stockpiles of indium and with recent price collapse, can have all they want, really. Recycling of indium is big business too.  I don't think either metal is a good example of the US being dependant on others for energy needs.

IMO, battery storage for renewable energy will be key for our country.  To that end, commodities like lithium and cobalt become very important.  

 

[General Malaise]

Neodymium for the magnets.

The Saudis have by far the largest oil production capacity.  That's why they have the most control over the price.  They can ramp up or ramp down quickly.  They did not adjust to our boom which is why the price crashed.

You are correct in that they didn't "turn on the spigot".  They simply maintained a high level of output despite a global glut to maintain market share.  Economically, they don't really need to do that.

Edit:  The problem with the rare earth metals isn't that they can't be replaced or are rare (some are), but that they are largely mined elsewhere and are required in the most efficient solar cells/magnets.  We would need a steady supply if we were to ramp up production in these areas.

We have a steady supply.  It's called Mountain Pass and it's been in production since the 50s.  In the 60s, Mountain Pass was pumping out Europium for color TVs.  The problem, of course, is that mining REE is hideously dirty and operations were shut down in the 90s amidst environmental problems.  But the mine is still there and until recently, was producing.  The REE price collapse and poor management forced MCP into bankruptcy, but this country does have production here domestically for some of the REE needed.   MCP was producing neodymium, so it's here.  

 

[John Maddens Lunchbox]

Michael Moore said all of this and proved it when W was in office. Of course he was seen as a crackpot conspiracy theorist.

 

[msommer]

Neodymium for the magnets.

The Saudis have by far the largest oil production capacity.  That's why they have the most control over the price.  They can ramp up or ramp down quickly.  They did not adjust to our boom which is why the price crashed.

You are correct in that they didn't "turn on the spigot".  They simply maintained a high level of output despite a global glut to maintain market share.  Economically, they don't really need to do that.

Edit:  The problem with the rare earth metals isn't that they can't be replaced or are rare (some are), but that they are largely mined elsewhere and are required in the most efficient solar cells/magnets.  We would need a steady supply if we were to ramp up production in these areas.

Specifically re Neodymium (from Wiki)

Neodymium is never found in nature as a free element, but rather it occurs in ores such as monazite and bastnäsite that contain small amounts of all the rare earth metals. The main mining areas are in China, the United States, Brazil, India, Sri Lanka, and Australia. The reserves of neodymium are estimated at about eight million tonnes. Although it belongs to the rare earth metals, neodymium is not rare at all. Its abundance in the Earth's crust is about 38 mg/kg, which is the second highest among rare-earth elements, following cerium. The world's production of neodymium was about 7,000 tonnes in 2004.[11] The bulk of current production is from China, whose government has recently imposed strategic materials controls on the element, raising some concerns in consuming countries and causing skyrocketing prices of neodymium and other rare-earth metals.[13] As of late 2011, 99% pure neodymium was traded in world markets for US$300nto US$350 per kilogram, down from the mid-2011 peak of US$500/kg.[14]

And even so, there are alternatives on the way

http://powerelectronics.com/alternative-energy/who-needs-rare-earths-when-you-ve-got-nanostructured-magnets

and 

http://www.designworldonline.com/coming-revolution-high-strength-magnets/

 

[msommer]

Michael Moore said all of this and proved it when W was in office. Of course he was seen as a crackpot conspiracy theorist.

Sake good order, Michael Moore can have said this AND be a crackpot conspiracy theorist at the same time.

 

[jonessed]

We have a steady supply.  It's called Mountain Pass and it's been in production since the 50s.  In the 60s, Mountain Pass was pumping out Europium for color TVs.  The problem, of course, is that mining REE is hideously dirty and operations were shut down in the 90s amidst environmental problems.  But the mine is still there and until recently, was producing.  The REE price collapse and poor management forced MCP into bankruptcy, but this country does have production here domestically for some of the REE needed.   MCP was producing neodymium, so it's here.  

That's why I said we would have to roll back decades of environmental protections to make domestic production competitive.  We outsource the pollution to get the price to a place that's moderately expensive and not outrageous.

 

[General Malaise]

That's why I said we would have to roll back decades of environmental protections to make domestic production competitive.  We outsource the pollution.

The area was cleaned up and passes environmental muster now...the problem, of course, is the operator is bankrupt.  Hell, we should just let the Government operate it.  Plenty of material in the ground.

 

[Short Corner]

This has been speculated on for years but mostly dismissed as crackpot conspiracy theory.

There are also claims that Saudi Arabia helped finance the Benghazi attacks and that emails about it were among those deleted by Hillary.

Saudi Arabia is also one of if not the worst regime supported by the U.S. Beheadings of political opponents, subjugation of women, abuses by religious police yadda yadda yadda.

Great friends these guys.

Yeah but without them we couldn't print out money like we do.

 

[jonessed]

Specifically re Neodymium (from Wiki)

And even so, there are alternatives on the way

http://powerelectronics.com/alternative-energy/who-needs-rare-earths-when-you-ve-got-nanostructured-magnets

and 

http://www.designworldonline.com/coming-revolution-high-strength-magnets/

These technologies may or may not pan out.  The technology doesn't only have to work, but it has to be cost effectively mass produced.  It's not an easy hurdle.

Fusion power would be nice.

 

[jonessed]

The area was cleaned up and passes environmental muster now...the problem, of course, is the operator is bankrupt.  Hell, we should just let the Government operate it.  Plenty of material in the ground.

The actual mining produces a massive amount of toxic waste.  This can be overcome for a price, but it would make the end product too expensive to be competitive.

 

[msommer]

These technologies may or may not pan out.  The technology doesn't only have to work, but it has to be cost effectively mass produced.  It's not an easy hurdle.

Fusion power would be nice.

yes, you are right. The sane course is obviously to not do anything about the oil dependency now, best left for later. Dealing with tyrants supporting terrorism as opposed to China is a much prefered option.

 

[Short Corner]

Michael Moore said all of this and proved it when W was in office. Of course he was seen as a crackpot conspiracy theorist.

Not really.

 

[jonessed]

yes, you are right. The sane course is obviously to not do anything about the oil dependency now, best left for later. Dealing with tyrants supporting terrorism as opposed to China is a much prefered option.

New technology always has the potential to change things.  I'm not discounting that possibility or the money we put into it.  It's just not prudent to build policy around unproven technology.

 

[msommer]

New technology always has the potential to change things.  I'm not discounting that possibility or the money we put into it.  It's just not prudent to build policy around unproven technology.

Nothing wrong with the current supply of the material as GM already pointed out. So, I guess you are all in favor to move forward now, right?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Michael Moore said all of this and proved it when W was in office. Of course he was seen as a crackpot conspiracy theorist.

This, and that, are two different things.

 

[jonessed]

Nothing wrong with the current supply of the material as GM already pointed out. So, I guess you are all in favor to move forward now, right?

Move forward with what?

 

[cstu]

New technology always has the potential to change things.  I'm not discounting that possibility or the money we put into it.  It's just not prudent to build policy around unproven technology.

I believe it's imprudent not to pursue alternative energy aggressively and instead spend trillions protecting our supply of oil.

For 10+ years here I've been harping on the need to switch to hydrogen fuel and now it's the Japanese and other countries who are leading the way instead of us.

 

[Higgs]

So Trump was right.  Imagine that.

 

[jonessed]

I believe it's imprudent not to pursue alternative energy aggressively and instead spend trillions protecting our supply of oil.

For 10+ years here I've been harping on the need to switch to hydrogen fuel and now it's the Japanese and other countries who are leading the way instead of us.

We have been pursuing it aggressively.  What foreign energy technology is primed to replace oil?

 

[honky kong]

New technology always has the potential to change things.  I'm not discounting that possibility or the money we put into it.  It's just not prudent to build policy around unproven technology.

You kinda did earlier in the thread when you said we were going to be stuck with oil and gas as the primary energy sources for decades to come.

 

[cstu]

We have been pursuing it aggressively.  What foreign energy technology is primed to replace oil?

For 10+ years here I've been harping on the need to switch to hydrogen fuel and now it's the Japanese and other countries who are leading the way instead of us.