Redskins and the Rooney Rule (1 Viewer)

[The Man with the Plan]

I wonder what Glenn Beck thinks of the Rooney Rule.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

So what's the winning percentage of those black coaches?

That doesn't have anything to do with the statement that the Rooney rule hasn't changed anything? Sounds like changing the subject.Without checking, I'd guess their winning percentage is pretty good, since a few coaches would pull the average way up. Tomlin, Love, Caldwell, Dungy, Lewis, even Singletary - all done pretty well. Their winning percentage would definitely be higher than white coaches, but that would be a somewhat meaningless stat since there's so many more white coaches and thus more losers.

It was really just curiosity. What is your purpose in this thread, exactly? To say that the Rooney rule has changed the amount of black coaches? No kidding? Teams are being forced to hire black coaches. Great rule.

 

[switz]

I'm not arguing for equality of results - only equality of opportunity. And IMO white RBs have 100% the opportunity that black RBs have. While blacks have not had the same good fortune in terms of head coaching jobs.

Whites have just as much discrimination going against them playing DB and RB as blacks did playing QB 10 years ago.You just don't hear about it because white folks don't play the race card.

Seriously?

I have to agree. Actually, until recently, it's been pretty much "favor the minorities" in the U.S.This last couple of years, there have been some radical right wing extremists who have been pulling the reverse-racism card more frequently.

But quite honestly, if you are a white male, you have the most stacked against you in regards to incentives to hire or help you in any way. If you are a minority (race or gender) you get preferential treatment because it's beneficial to a company to hire you, and most charities are set up to assist specific minority groups.

NAACP - what on earth would people say if there was a NAAWP?

Negro College Fund - what if there was a WPCF?

Having moved from the North (where I'd never seen prejudice at all) to the South (where I've seen and experienced tons of prejudice against whites) I can say from personal experience that many minorities are prejudiced against whites. I'm sure it goes both ways, I won't even argue it. But to claim that whites aren't discriminated against is ignorant.

Heck, just look at what happened with the firefighters. It wasn't only whites that passed the promotion test, but since the majority were white, it was assumed there was a flaw in the test. If all the test passers had been minorities, does anyone think the case would have gone before a judge to see if it was biased?

 

[switz]

I wonder what Glenn Beck thinks of the Rooney Rule.

I can't stand Glenn Beck, or Rush Limbaugh. They are the worst promoters of white american men. Total idiots.

 

[jackdubl]

So what's the winning percentage of those black coaches?

From an NPR article prior to 2007 season:Of the 50 combined seasons that African-American head coaches have been involved in, 29 times they've reached the playoffs. They have a lifetime 546 winning percentage.Seems pretty good to me.

 

[jackdubl]

So what's the winning percentage of those black coaches?

That doesn't have anything to do with the statement that the Rooney rule hasn't changed anything? Sounds like changing the subject.Without checking, I'd guess their winning percentage is pretty good, since a few coaches would pull the average way up. Tomlin, Love, Caldwell, Dungy, Lewis, even Singletary - all done pretty well. Their winning percentage would definitely be higher than white coaches, but that would be a somewhat meaningless stat since there's so many more white coaches and thus more losers.

It was really just curiosity. What is your purpose in this thread, exactly? To say that the Rooney rule has changed the amount of black coaches? No kidding? Teams are being forced to hire black coaches. Great rule.

Which black coach were the teams forced to hire again?

 

[Chaka]

How many more interviews can Gray go to (without being hired) before he is viewed as the "token" candidate throughout the League and thought of as a joke not only to personnel people but eventually players as well?

He's been interviewed for 2 NFL head coaching jobs, one last year and one this year.2.Were other coaches thought of as 'not real' candidates after 2 interviews?

That's why I asked. Is there some magic number of interviews he can go on before being thought of or labeled as the guy who just goes to meet the quota? Obviously 2 isn't too many but, how many is too many? Nobody knows.

Being on the staff of the coach you are interviewing to replace before he has been fired will probably hurt him more than too many interviews.

 

[jackdubl]

Heck, just look at what happened with the firefighters. It wasn't only whites that passed the promotion test, but since the majority were white, it was assumed there was a flaw in the test. If all the test passers had been minorities, does anyone think the case would have gone before a judge to see if it was biased?

Uh, yes. Just like the kids who go before judges and argue they should've gotten into their first choice of college but didn't 'cause they were white. By the way, the test givers were the one's who questioned the test, not the test takers. And the court found in favor of the white guys who passed, so justice served.

 

[Chaka]

I'm not arguing for equality of results - only equality of opportunity. And IMO white RBs have 100% the opportunity that black RBs have. While blacks have not had the same good fortune in terms of head coaching jobs.

Whites have just as much discrimination going against them playing DB and RB as blacks did playing QB 10 years ago.You just don't hear about it because white folks don't play the race card.

Seriously?

I have to agree. Actually, until recently, it's been pretty much "favor the minorities" in the U.S.This last couple of years, there have been some radical right wing extremists who have been pulling the reverse-racism card more frequently.

But quite honestly, if you are a white male, you have the most stacked against you in regards to incentives to hire or help you in any way. If you are a minority (race or gender) you get preferential treatment because it's beneficial to a company to hire you, and most charities are set up to assist specific minority groups.

NAACP - what on earth would people say if there was a NAAWP?

Negro College Fund - what if there was a WPCF?

Having moved from the North (where I'd never seen prejudice at all) to the South (where I've seen and experienced tons of prejudice against whites) I can say from personal experience that many minorities are prejudiced against whites. I'm sure it goes both ways, I won't even argue it. But to claim that whites aren't discriminated against is ignorant.

Heck, just look at what happened with the firefighters. It wasn't only whites that passed the promotion test, but since the majority were white, it was assumed there was a flaw in the test. If all the test passers had been minorities, does anyone think the case would have gone before a judge to see if it was biased?

This isn't about reverse racism in the U.S. it's about the notion that white people don't get the opportunity to play running back or defensive back in the NFL, which is patently ridiculous.On the field in the NFL if you have the measurables you will get opportunities.

I can't believe I have to explain something so intuitively obvious.

 

[Chaka]

Heck, just look at what happened with the firefighters. It wasn't only whites that passed the promotion test, but since the majority were white, it was assumed there was a flaw in the test. If all the test passers had been minorities, does anyone think the case would have gone before a judge to see if it was biased?

Uh, yes. Just like the kids who go before judges and argue they should've gotten into their first choice of college but didn't 'cause they were white. By the way, the test givers were the one's who questioned the test, not the test takers. And the court found in favor of the white guys who passed, so justice served.

Okay it's time to move this thread to the FFA.

 

[Yenrub]

So what's the winning percentage of those black coaches?

That doesn't have anything to do with the statement that the Rooney rule hasn't changed anything? Sounds like changing the subject.Without checking, I'd guess their winning percentage is pretty good, since a few coaches would pull the average way up. Tomlin, Love, Caldwell, Dungy, Lewis, even Singletary - all done pretty well. Their winning percentage would definitely be higher than white coaches, but that would be a somewhat meaningless stat since there's so many more white coaches and thus more losers.

It was really just curiosity. What is your purpose in this thread, exactly? To say that the Rooney rule has changed the amount of black coaches? No kidding? Teams are being forced to hire black coaches. Great rule.

Interview is not the same as Hire

 

[fatness]

Being on the staff of the coach you are interviewing to replace before he has been fired will probably hurt him more than too many interviews.

You might be right. It's hard to say that "2" is too many interviews. I'm not sure if teams would hold it against Gray that he interviewed for his HC's job while working under him or not. They may, or they may say "It's the Redskins, their front office structure has never made any sense, what was the guy supposed to do, turn down a head coaching interview?" I'd think what would count more than either of those things, in Gray's case as well as other HC candidates on other teams, is talking to teams he's previously worked for and teams he's previously interviewed with.

 

[Chaka]

Being on the staff of the coach you are interviewing to replace before he has been fired will probably hurt him more than too many interviews.

You might be right. It's hard to say that "2" is too many interviews. I'm not sure if teams would hold it against Gray that he interviewed for his HC's job while working under him or not. They may, or they may say "It's the Redskins, their front office structure has never made any sense, what was the guy supposed to do, turn down a head coaching interview?" I'd think what would count more than either of those things, in Gray's case as well as other HC candidates on other teams, is talking to teams he's previously worked for and teams he's previously interviewed with.

Gray should be more worried about a head coaches willingness to hire him as a coordinator then an owners willingness to hire him as a head coach.He was in a tough position but wanting to be a team player for ownership may not have been the best decision. We'll see.

 

[fatness]

What he has going for him is his experience coaching with the Titans, Bills, and Redskins, and his ability to deal with the press. The Redskins defensive coordinator stopped talking to the press about halfway through the year, so Gray took over that responsibility.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

So what's the winning percentage of those black coaches?

That doesn't have anything to do with the statement that the Rooney rule hasn't changed anything? Sounds like changing the subject.Without checking, I'd guess their winning percentage is pretty good, since a few coaches would pull the average way up. Tomlin, Love, Caldwell, Dungy, Lewis, even Singletary - all done pretty well. Their winning percentage would definitely be higher than white coaches, but that would be a somewhat meaningless stat since there's so many more white coaches and thus more losers.

It was really just curiosity. What is your purpose in this thread, exactly? To say that the Rooney rule has changed the amount of black coaches? No kidding? Teams are being forced to hire black coaches. Great rule.

Which black coach were the teams forced to hire again?

You don't think the #### would hit the fan if the Rooney rule failed to produce black head coaches?

 

[Chaka]

So what's the winning percentage of those black coaches?

That doesn't have anything to do with the statement that the Rooney rule hasn't changed anything? Sounds like changing the subject.Without checking, I'd guess their winning percentage is pretty good, since a few coaches would pull the average way up. Tomlin, Love, Caldwell, Dungy, Lewis, even Singletary - all done pretty well. Their winning percentage would definitely be higher than white coaches, but that would be a somewhat meaningless stat since there's so many more white coaches and thus more losers.

It was really just curiosity. What is your purpose in this thread, exactly? To say that the Rooney rule has changed the amount of black coaches? No kidding? Teams are being forced to hire black coaches. Great rule.

Which black coach were the teams forced to hire again?

You don't think the #### would hit the fan if the Rooney rule failed to produce black head coaches?

Please answer the question before posing a different one.

 

[crewmember]

What are the rules on what black person you interview? Can you just grab a black guy from the street up to the office.

Guys on Chicago radio were pretty funny. They were wondering if they could get around the Rooney Rule since their last coach would have been Lovie Smith. Turns out you don't get any credit or pass for that.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

Which black coach were the teams forced to hire again?

You don't think the #### would hit the fan if the Rooney rule failed to produce black head coaches?

Please answer the question before posing a different one.

My answer to the question, Mr. Potatohead, is that the rule can't force teams to hire black coaches so it forces them to interview them. But the intent is clear - get more black coaches in the game. Why? The hiring standards could be adjusted but basing it on race is the very definition of racism. I don't have the slightest problem with black coaches but merit is merit. Forcing teams to change hiring practices has inevitably led to finding loopholes such as the token situation and the hiring from within situation. So does the rule work? Maybe, maybe not. What I see is people getting opportunity for the sake of opportunity not because they deserve a job. It's basically a welfare system. And I don’t agree with that.

 

[jackdubl]

Which black coach were the teams forced to hire again?

You don't think the #### would hit the fan if the Rooney rule failed to produce black head coaches?

Please answer the question before posing a different one.

My answer to the question, Mr. Potatohead, is that the rule can't force teams to hire black coaches so it forces them to interview them. But the intent is clear - get more black coaches in the game. Why? The hiring standards could be adjusted but basing it on race is the very definition of racism. I don't have the slightest problem with black coaches but merit is merit. Forcing teams to change hiring practices has inevitably led to finding loopholes such as the token situation and the hiring from within situation. So does the rule work? Maybe, maybe not. What I see is people getting opportunity for the sake of opportunity because they deserve a job.s basically a welfare system. And I don’t agree with that.

Having an OPPURTUNITY to EARN a job isn't welfare. You're starting to sound like a Limbaughnite. Same old argument - the people they're interrviewing don't deserve the job. I guess if you are a white guy waiting to play in a pick up game of basketball and the black guys never pick you, you must not deserve to play. Might be nice to see you take a jump shot before we decide, though.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

Which black coach were the teams forced to hire again?

You don't think the #### would hit the fan if the Rooney rule failed to produce black head coaches?

Please answer the question before posing a different one.

My answer to the question, Mr. Potatohead, is that the rule can't force teams to hire black coaches so it forces them to interview them. But the intent is clear - get more black coaches in the game. Why? The hiring standards could be adjusted but basing it on race is the very definition of racism. I don't have the slightest problem with black coaches but merit is merit. Forcing teams to change hiring practices has inevitably led to finding loopholes such as the token situation and the hiring from within situation. So does the rule work? Maybe, maybe not. What I see is people getting opportunity for the sake of opportunity because they deserve a job.s basically a welfare system. And I don’t agree with that.

Having an OPPURTUNITY to EARN a job isn't welfare. You're starting to sound like a Limbaughnite. Same old argument - the people they're interrviewing don't deserve the job. I guess if you are a white guy waiting to play in a pick up game of basketball and the black guys never pick you, you must not deserve to play. Might be nice to see you take a jump shot before we decide, though.

Right, so let's let an unqualified person with less than adequate experience - in your mind as a general manager of a professional football team - have a crack at a job because he's black. You could get lucky or you could get fired. Good idea. And save the juvenile, political jabs for some other time if you can. It's not adding anything to the discussion.

 

[jackdubl]

Right, so let's let an unqualified person with less than adequate experience - in your mind as a general manager of a professional football team - have a crack at a job because he's black. You could get lucky or you could get fired. Good idea. And save the juvenile, political jabs for some other time if you can. It's not adding anything to the discussion.

I was just waiting for that. I knew that's how you felt from the start. I feel sorry for those owners forced to hire unqualified blacks. Sucks for them. But hey, at least some of 'em are getting lucky and winning some games. Much better for those GM's to stay safe and hire white guys only. And you wonder why there's a Rooney rule.By the way, how do you know they're unqualified if you never even interview them? Why interview anyone ever if that's the case?

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

Right, so let's let an unqualified person with less than adequate experience - in your mind as a general manager of a professional football team - have a crack at a job because he's black. You could get lucky or you could get fired. Good idea. And save the juvenile, political jabs for some other time if you can. It's not adding anything to the discussion.

I was just waiting for that. I knew that's how you felt from the start. I feel sorry for those owners forced to hire unqualified blacks. Sucks for them. But hey, at least some of 'em are getting lucky and winning some games. Much better for those GM's to stay safe and hire white guys only. And you wonder why there's a Rooney rule.By the way, how do you know they're unqualified if you never even interview them? Why interview anyone ever if that's the case?

If you'll notice, the phrase I used was 'unqualified person', not 'unqualified black person'. And if you're reading comprehension is that poor, I'll go ahead and agree to disagree.

 

[Summer Wheat]

First of all any coach is only as good as the GM who is providing his players.

Tomlin and Caldwell both fell into "SuperBowl type" situations so they are tough to evaluate.

Singletary has done a better job than both of those guys IMO turning a team around. Lovie is so-so and probably will get canned after this year.

 

[Sleeping King]

I'm still waiting for someone to answer my question from page 1.

If the league has 17 of 32 minority coaches do we then have a new rule making teams interview white coaches? If so can we call it the Looney Rule?

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

First of all any coach is only as good as the GM who is providing his players.Tomlin and Caldwell both fell into "SuperBowl type" situations so they are tough to evaluate.Singletary has done a better job than both of those guys IMO turning a team around. Lovie is so-so and probably will get canned after this year.

 

[jackdubl]

Right, so let's let an unqualified person with less than adequate experience - in your mind as a general manager of a professional football team - have a crack at a job because he's black. You could get lucky or you could get fired. Good idea. And save the juvenile, political jabs for some other time if you can. It's not adding anything to the discussion.

I was just waiting for that. I knew that's how you felt from the start. I feel sorry for those owners forced to hire unqualified blacks. Sucks for them. But hey, at least some of 'em are getting lucky and winning some games. Much better for those GM's to stay safe and hire white guys only. And you wonder why there's a Rooney rule.By the way, how do you know they're unqualified if you never even interview them? Why interview anyone ever if that's the case?

If you'll notice, the phrase I used was 'unqualified person', not 'unqualified black person'. And if you're reading comprehension is that poor, I'll go ahead and agree to disagree.

No, you said 'unqualified person because he is black'. It's the same argument that the black guy who got hired must be unqualified. Why do you think they are hiring or would hire unqualified blacks? I guess that's the real question. I've never said hire someone who isn't a good candidate because he's black. I said there are many good candidates who are black, but they weren't getting interviews. Big difference, my friend. If you want to go into reasons why they weren't getting interviewed, we may be discussing human nature for a long time in this thread.

 

[jackdubl]

I'm still waiting for someone to answer my question from page 1. If the league has 17 of 32 minority coaches do we then have a new rule making teams interview white coaches? If so can we call it the Looney Rule?

When white coaches can't get interviews, then we'll need the Looney rule. Could happen, I suppose.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

Right, so let's let an unqualified person with less than adequate experience - in your mind as a general manager of a professional football team - have a crack at a job because he's black. You could get lucky or you could get fired. Good idea. And save the juvenile, political jabs for some other time if you can. It's not adding anything to the discussion.

I was just waiting for that. I knew that's how you felt from the start. I feel sorry for those owners forced to hire unqualified blacks. Sucks for them. But hey, at least some of 'em are getting lucky and winning some games. Much better for those GM's to stay safe and hire white guys only. And you wonder why there's a Rooney rule.By the way, how do you know they're unqualified if you never even interview them? Why interview anyone ever if that's the case?

If you'll notice, the phrase I used was 'unqualified person', not 'unqualified black person'. And if you're reading comprehension is that poor, I'll go ahead and agree to disagree.

No, you said 'unqualified person because he is black'. It's the same argument that the black guy who got hired must be unqualified. Why do you think they are hiring or would hire unqualified blacks? I guess that's the real question. I've never said hire someone who isn't a good candidate because he's black. I said there are many good candidates who are black, but they weren't getting interviews. Big difference, my friend. If you want to go into reasons why they weren't getting interviewed, we may be discussing human nature for a long time in this thread.

Wrong again, friendo. I said get a crack at a job because he's black. You are much better at misrepresenting what I wrote than actually reading it.

 

[jackdubl]

Wrong again, friendo. I said get a crack at a job because he's black. You are much better at misrepresenting what I wrote than actually reading it.

Fine, that's what I said, but say it your way. Same question: Why do you think NFL teams are hiring or would hire unqualified blacks? Which ones were the unqualified ones? Were any of them qualified?

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

Wrong again, friendo. I said get a crack at a job because he's black. You are much better at misrepresenting what I wrote than actually reading it.

Fine, that's what I said, but say it your way. Same question: Why do you think NFL teams are hiring or would hire unqualified blacks? Which ones were the unqualified ones? Were any of them qualified?

You seem to think I'm referring to a current coach or have some axe to grind for existing hires. I'll say it again: the only thing I am against is forced hiring practices. And go ahead and think that the rule is about interviews - it's not. It's about hiring. If the rule had resulted in zero black hires to date the rule would have been altered. My point is that forcing teams to interview based on race is racism. Color shouldn't matter. There are tons of black and white coaches in the NFL that have to pay their dues. Just let the chips fall where they may and stay out of the racism business altogether.

 

[jackdubl]

Wrong again, friendo. I said get a crack at a job because he's black. You are much better at misrepresenting what I wrote than actually reading it.

Fine, that's what I said, but say it your way. Same question: Why do you think NFL teams are hiring or would hire unqualified blacks? Which ones were the unqualified ones? Were any of them qualified?

You seem to think I'm referring to a current coach or have some axe to grind for existing hires. I'll say it again: the only thing I am against is forced hiring practices. And go ahead and think that the rule is about interviews - it's not. It's about hiring. If the rule had resulted in zero black hires to date the rule would have been altered. My point is that forcing teams to interview based on race is racism. Color shouldn't matter. There are tons of black and white coaches in the NFL that have to pay their dues. Just let the chips fall where they may and stay out of the racism business altogether.

Yeah, it's designed to effect hiring, but it isn't a forced hiring practice. Why are you so threatened by a guy getting an interview? No one has cried foul when a guy didn't get hired. If you recall, this whole rule started because of Marvin Lewis. He'd had been defensive coordinator for the Ravens for many years, had coached them to the best defense in the league several years, had coached them to the best defense in history one year where the defense carried them to a Super Bowl championship, had been rumored to be the top candidate for several head coaching jobs, and had never gotten an interview. Then people started to notice nobody but white guys were getting interviews. Call it racism or call it coincidence, it ain't fair whatever it is. Only by giving an interview can you say the chips fell where they may, to use your own words. Give him an interview. If he doesn't get the job, fine. If he does, fine. Don't see why you don't think that's fair.

 

[elmanx]

Don't see why you don't think that's fair.

Can't speak for everyone, but I (and I think most who object to the Rooney Rule) don't think the problem with the rule is that it's unfair. As far as affirmative action type policies go I think it's pretty benign and I definitely wouldn't call it unfair. I do think it is silly, unecessary, and perpetuates a stereotype that minorities need extra help.

 

[jackdubl]

Don't see why you don't think that's fair.

Can't speak for everyone, but I (and I think most who object to the Rooney Rule) don't think the problem with the rule is that it's unfair. As far as affirmative action type policies go I think it's pretty benign and I definitely wouldn't call it unfair. I do think it is silly, unecessary, and perpetuates a stereotype that minorities need extra help.

Any rule will perpetuate that stereotype, true. But you have to get the ball rolling somehow. Once black coaches get jobs and have success, the stereotype starts to evaporate. And then, as many in this thread have wondered about, the need for the rule will also evaporate.

 

[Chaka]

Right, so let's let an unqualified person with less than adequate experience

Come on Mookie you had to know where that argument was going to lead, don't pretend to be shocked that people could be reasonably offended at the subtext of that language.You can play the literalist in your interpretation and intent behind that statement but don't pretend that there isn't a lot that can be read into it.

I am against many of these fair hiring programs for a lot of the same reasons that you are, my posts in this tread support that. I understand why people feel they are necessary but I think that in many ways they hinder far more than they help. They can create a culture wide feeling within the target population that they cannot achieve in this society without the noble crutch of those who wish to provide the things they believe the target population needs. A literalist interpreter of those rules would pretend not to see that possibility.

There is a lot of gray area here.

 

[zed2283]

This isn't about reverse racism in the U.S. it's about the notion that white people don't get the opportunity to play running back or defensive back in the NFL, which is patently ridiculous.On the field in the NFL if you have the measurables you will get opportunities.I can't believe I have to explain something so intuitively obvious.

So it's ridiculous to think that white people don't get the opportunity to play RB or DB but it's common sense that black people don't get the opportunity to coach?

 

[fatness]

You seem to think I'm referring to a current coach or have some axe to grind for existing hires.

Since the title of the thread is "Redskins and the Rooney Rule" and the only person being discussed is Jerry Gray, whom you agree is qualified to interview for the HC job, what the hell are you carrying on about?

 

[Righetti]

somewhere Denny Green is smiling

 

[Chaka]

This isn't about reverse racism in the U.S. it's about the notion that white people don't get the opportunity to play running back or defensive back in the NFL, which is patently ridiculous.On the field in the NFL if you have the measurables you will get opportunities.I can't believe I have to explain something so intuitively obvious.

So it's ridiculous to think that white people don't get the opportunity to play RB or DB but it's common sense that black people don't get the opportunity to coach?

Yes and no. You haven't read all of my posts in this thread (not that I blame you).

 

[jackdubl]

I remember Jason Sehorn telling a story about how in college, the WR coach told him to report to the DB practice as a corner. He said the coaches and DB's there were giving him and each other funny looks. DB coach wasn't sure he knew where he was.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

You seem to think I'm referring to a current coach or have some axe to grind for existing hires.

Since the title of the thread is "Redskins and the Rooney Rule" and the only person being discussed is Jerry Gray, whom you agree is qualified to interview for the HC job, what the hell are you carrying on about?

Oh I don't know, the part after the and? To be fair, I felt the discussion left the specifics of the Jerry Gray situation and moved on to a general discussion about the Rooney rule. I apoliogize if my posts were misunderstood based on my own misinterpretation of the thread discussion. I can see where some of my comments, when placed in direct context of the thread (I know, I'm an idiot) would seem off base or even imflamatory.

 

[jackdubl]

You seem to think I'm referring to a current coach or have some axe to grind for existing hires.

Since the title of the thread is "Redskins and the Rooney Rule" and the only person being discussed is Jerry Gray, whom you agree is qualified to interview for the HC job, what the hell are you carrying on about?

Oh I don't know, the part after the and? To be fair, I felt the discussion left the specifics of the Jerry Gray situation and moved on to a general discussion about the Rooney rule. I apoliogize if my posts were misunderstood based on my own misinterpretation of the thread discussion. I can see where some of my comments, when placed in direct context of the thread (I know, I'm an idiot) would seem off base or even imflamatory.

There's really two different discussions going on here.

 

[encaitar]

Everyone continues to overlook the major factor in all of this. There is one simple reason why there are more white coaches than black coaches. White athletes have a higher graduation percentage than black athletes. Almost all football coaches have some sort of previous football playing experience(for most it is just college). Also, most coaches get their start on a college team's staff or as a high school coach and move up. Well, I've never heard of many colleges or high schools hiring guys without degrees.

Almost every black coach today is a former NFL football player. The reason it is harder for these men to get a head coaching job is that the candidates they are up against have 10-15 years more coaching experience than they do. A 45 year old Mike Singletary(who happens to be a good coach) has less than half the coaching experience of a 45 year old Jon Gruden.

So, looking at it from an owner's POV it's a much bigger risk to hire someone like Singletary with no head coaching experience than it is for many white coaches, who may not have NFL head coaching experience but might have it on lower levels. Want more black coaches? Get more black college football players to graduate. This is where the NFL really needs to get involved and is an area that could impact the black community in much greater ways than hiring a few black head coaches.

 

[jackdubl]

Everyone continues to overlook the major factor in all of this. There is one simple reason why there are more white coaches than black coaches. White athletes have a higher graduation percentage than black athletes. Almost all football coaches have some sort of previous football playing experience(for most it is just college). Also, most coaches get their start on a college team's staff or as a high school coach and move up. Well, I've never heard of many colleges or high schools hiring guys without degrees.

Almost every black coach today is a former NFL football player. The reason it is harder for these men to get a head coaching job is that the candidates they are up against have 10-15 years more coaching experience than they do. A 45 year old Mike Singletary(who happens to be a good coach) has less than half the coaching experience of a 45 year old Jon Gruden.

So, looking at it from an owner's POV it's a much bigger risk to hire someone like Singletary with no head coaching experience than it is for many white coaches, who may not have NFL head coaching experience but might have it on lower levels. Want more black coaches? Get more black college football players to graduate. This is where the NFL really needs to get involved and is an area that could impact the black community in much greater ways than hiring a few black head coaches.

I think you nailed it. I WAS overlooking this. Definitely on to something here.

 

[zed2283]

Everyone continues to overlook the major factor in all of this. There is one simple reason why there are more white coaches than black coaches. White athletes have a higher graduation percentage than black athletes. Almost all football coaches have some sort of previous football playing experience(for most it is just college). Also, most coaches get their start on a college team's staff or as a high school coach and move up. Well, I've never heard of many colleges or high schools hiring guys without degrees.

Almost every black coach today is a former NFL football player. The reason it is harder for these men to get a head coaching job is that the candidates they are up against have 10-15 years more coaching experience than they do. A 45 year old Mike Singletary(who happens to be a good coach) has less than half the coaching experience of a 45 year old Jon Gruden.

So, looking at it from an owner's POV it's a much bigger risk to hire someone like Singletary with no head coaching experience than it is for many white coaches, who may not have NFL head coaching experience but might have it on lower levels. Want more black coaches? Get more black college football players to graduate. This is where the NFL really needs to get involved and is an area that could impact the black community in much greater ways than hiring a few black head coaches.

I think you nailed it. I WAS overlooking this. Definitely on to something here.

That's very true too. And entitlement issues have former players thinking that they should just be given the reins without having to prove themselves in the coaching ranks. I have heard Deion Sanders and Marshall Faulk both say that they are qualified to step into head coaching positions.

 

[switz]

This isn't about reverse racism in the U.S. it's about the notion that white people don't get the opportunity to play running back or defensive back in the NFL, which is patently ridiculous.On the field in the NFL if you have the measurables you will get opportunities.I can't believe I have to explain something so intuitively obvious.

So it's ridiculous to think that white people don't get the opportunity to play RB or DB but it's common sense that black people don't get the opportunity to coach?

With the number of HS football programs I've been involved with, and the college recruiting I've done, I can tell you that many white athletes who COULD play RB, are often encouraged (and at times forced) to switch to tight end, safety or linebacker. And if they insist on staying at RB, they are often used at FB, not TB or HB.So the notion that "if you have the measurables you will get opportunities" is ridiculous.

 

[fissure man]

This isn't about reverse racism in the U.S. it's about the notion that white people don't get the opportunity to play running back or defensive back in the NFL, which is patently ridiculous.On the field in the NFL if you have the measurables you will get opportunities.I can't believe I have to explain something so intuitively obvious.

So it's ridiculous to think that white people don't get the opportunity to play RB or DB but it's common sense that black people don't get the opportunity to coach?

With the number of HS football programs I've been involved with, and the college recruiting I've done, I can tell you that many white athletes who COULD play RB, are often encouraged (and at times forced) to switch to tight end, safety or linebacker. And if they insist on staying at RB, they are often used at FB, not TB or HB.So the notion that "if you have the measurables you will get opportunities" is ridiculous.

This has been my experience as well and was exactly my point.

 

[fatness]

There's really two different discussions going on here.

There are. And the one about Jerry Gray is pretty much done.

 

[monessen]

. . .except that my original post was not "uninformed." It was predicated on fact. The Redskins did interview Gray. That's been confirmed. Gray will likely continue to called in for interviews by teams in the weeks to come seeking to fulfill the Rooney Rule. He deserves a shot at a HC position. But, in the case of the Redskins, it was a quick and obligatory action so that they could move on to hire Shanahan---a very transparent measure. Does anyone doubt that the second Zorn is out the door, Shanahan is in? My gosh, there are reports Shanahan has already talked to potential assistants. If that isn't a fait accompli, I don't know what is.

I haven't read of any stories about Gray's prospective staff in DC because Gray won't be there. And it is silly to believe that most owners don't know enough about him or what Gray would bring to the table. People like Snyder are fully aware of the merits of Gray; he simply needed him as a means within the system to land Shanahan.

 

[Obie Wan]

What constitutes a minority?

Would interviewing a Jew satisfy the rule? No

Religious minorities?No.

Would interviewing a person of Hispanic descent still satisfy the rule in California?Yes, or anywhere else.

What about a woman?Yes.

How about a person of mixed race (1/2 white), would you have to interview two of them to satisfy the rule?No.

Say what you want about the rule, it has sped up the inevitable. There will always be cases where a coach has already been picked, regardless of the coach's race. But Mike Tomlin won the Pittsburgh job in the interview, Rooney said it himself, and who know's if he gets that interview without the rule.

Actually Russ Grimm won the job in the interview.Too bad for him the league pressured the Steelers to renege on Grimm and give the job to a black guy- since the Rooney Rule was named after him and all

 

[fatness]

. . .except that my original post was not "uninformed."

This part was certainly uniformed. It looks like you had no clue how many head coaching interviews he's had and just made it up to make your point.

But he's been to this rodeo before. How much more "experience" does he need from this bogus, courtesy-oriented, going through the motions nonsense? It seems like whenever there is a "done deal" with a particular coach already earmarked for a team, Gray is the designated "go to" token applicant.