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Respectful discussion and debate with Trump supporters requested: Topic # 1 Undocumented immigration (1 Viewer)

Rich Conway said:
But the point is, your dream goal actually obliterates your pragmatic goal.  If we had fully open borders, you're suggesting that we'd no longer be able to keep prices low.  So which is it?  Do we need low prices, which require illegal, below-minimum-wage workers, or should all workers be legal?
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No no. If we had open borders prices would go down to such an extent as to make the whole question of undocumented workers moot. My dream goal would make my pragmatic solution unnecessary. 

 
timschochet said:
Not sure I understand your question. I believe in free trade. I believe in minimum wage. 

I have cited various studies in the past. Here is an article by HA Goodman (the Bernie supporter, back when he was sane!) which provides a reasonable summary: 

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/203984-illegal-immigrants-benefit-the-us-economy

on my phone so I hope that will suffice. 
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Wages are part of the trade equation....ultimate "free trade" includes no laws on wage....pay what the market bears.  Thanks for the link...I'll take a look :thumbup:  

 
timschochet said:
No no. If we had open borders prices would go down to such an extent as to make the whole question of undocumented workers moot. My dream goal would make my pragmatic solution unnecessary. 
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How would prices go down if businesses suddenly started abiding by minimum wage laws?

 
@timschochet That link is a commentary on data points from several studies.  I was hoping for the actual study that DW was referring to.  Wanted to see how they set up the study and executed it etc. :kicksrock:  

 
timschochet said:
Not sure I understand your question. I believe in free trade. I believe in minimum wage. 

I have cited various studies in the past. Here is an article by HA Goodman (the Bernie supporter, back when he was sane!) which provides a reasonable summary: 

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/203984-illegal-immigrants-benefit-the-us-economy

on my phone so I hope that will suffice. 
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Articles that state "other studies claim X" aren't really proof of X.

 
Rich Conway said:
How would prices go down if businesses suddenly started abiding by minimum wage laws?
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Ah I see your point now. 

They wouldn't. Even if we had open immigration a certain group of people would still have to work below the minimum wage. So that would either have to be illegal or there would have to be legal exceptions to minimum wage in certain industries (the latter would obviously be preferable.) 

but open immigration, IMO, would ultimately create such economic prosperity that higher prices would be more easily affordable anyhow. 

 
The Commish said:
@timschochet That link is a commentary on data points from several studies.  I was hoping for the actual study that DW was referring to.  Wanted to see how they set up the study and executed it etc. :kicksrock:  
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Yeah, sorry on my phone. But those are the same studies I've referred to. It would be easy enough for you to search them out. 

 
timschochet said:
The Commish said:
@timschochet That link is a commentary on data points from several studies.  I was hoping for the actual study that DW was referring to.  Wanted to see how they set up the study and executed it etc. :kicksrock:  
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Yeah, sorry on my phone. But those are the same studies I've referred to. It would be easy enough for you to search them out. 
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Thanks....I have been through several of them, but I wanted to read the specific one you gave DW.  It might be one I've already read...not sure, but since it was brought up here, I wanted to read it to understand what you guys were talking about.

 
The Commish said:
Thanks....I have been through several of them, but I wanted to read the specific one you gave DW.  It might be one I've already read...not sure, but since it was brought up here, I wanted to read it to understand what you guys were talking about.
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Not sure which one he's referring to. 

 
timschochet said:
No no. If we had open borders prices would go down to such an extent as to make the whole question of undocumented workers moot. My dream goal would make my pragmatic solution unnecessary. 
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Desperation always has an extreme influence on price. For example, when there is a shortage of clean drinking water, people who are desperate for clean drinking water will pay an extremely high price for it. And when there is a surplus of labor, people desperate for work will accept an extremely low price for it. When free market capitalism is unregulated, these extremes wreck havoc on society. Just look at history. This is why price gouging laws and minimum wage laws regulate society so that society doesn't suffer from their occurrence. I accept your premise that if we had open borders prices would go down, but I don't accept it to be a good thing. The benefit of paying lower prices would not exceed the negative costs society would suffer. Taxes would certainly go up to attempt to fix all the damage it would cause from exploiting the vastly growing lower class that would be occurring at a vastly increasing rate. 

 
Well...

Only yesterday I predicted that there would be changes coming on this subject. Maybe sooner than I expected? Reports are that Trump wants a comprehensive bill that would give legal status, not citizenship to undocumented...

I will try to find a link. But what a Nixon to China moment this would be! 

 
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If the reports are true Trump is now in favor of the same idea I proposed yesterday: giving non-felon undocumented aliens legal status, but not citizenship. However there may be a constitutional argument against this that I wasn't aware of: it would effectively create second class citizens. Not sure how you get around that. 

 
Local talk radio here (which has been anti-undocumented alien for years before Trump) is blowing up. Trump could do no wrong with these folks until now. If he pushes any kind of legal recognition for undocumented..."betrayal!!" 

 
timschochet said:
If the reports are true Trump is now in favor of the same idea I proposed yesterday: giving non-felon undocumented aliens legal status, but not citizenship. However there may be a constitutional argument against this that I wasn't aware of: it would effectively create second class citizens. Not sure how you get around that. 
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Isn't second-class citizens exactly what you want?  Basically people who can live here, but not enjoy worker protections?

 
And somebody pointed out on MSNBC that for the first 68 years of his life, Donald Trump never once mentioned this issue (except on a few occasions when he argued for amnesty). So an about face shouldn't come as shock to anybody (though given the nature of his rhetoric and how central this topic was to his populist and xenophobic campaign, it does to me.) 

 
timschochet said:
And somebody pointed out on MSNBC that for the first 68 years of his life, Donald Trump never once mentioned this issue (except on a few occasions when he argued for amnesty). So an about face shouldn't come as shock to anybody (though given the nature of his rhetoric and how central this topic was to his populist and xenophobic campaign, it does to me.) 
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First 68 years of life. :lmao:   Do you expect 8 year old kids to discuss immigration? Good Lord :lmao:

 
Rich Conway said:
Isn't second-class citizens exactly what you want?  Basically people who can live here, but not enjoy worker protections?
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What I want (and what I will accept) doesn't matter. The law likely won't accept it. 

And I believe in worker protections for everyone here. But wages are a different matter. 

 
Going back to some things posted earlier, the idea of exceptions to minimum wage laws is a terrible idea.  The entire point of minimum wage laws is to ensure that workers can earn enough to survive.  We can argue whether the premise is faulty, or what the amount should be, but there shouldn't be any question that allowing exceptions for certain people defeats the purpose of the law in the first place.  If we allow person A to only accept non-skilled work at $10/hour, but person B can legally work the same job for $6/hour, a business will nearly always hire person B.  The ultimate effect is that it makes it that much more difficult for person A to find work at all, defeating the point of the minimum wage law in the first place.

 
Rich Conway said:
How would prices go down if businesses suddenly started abiding by minimum wage laws?
Click to expand...
Because with the greatly increasing labor pool, wages over all would fall, which would have the effect of the products and services being provided by that labor being priced lower as a result of cheaper labor. But it would also cause other prices to fall to, as now the average household income drops, people can't afford to pay what goods and services are worth, thus many business will drop prices out of desperation to find customers. Overall this is really bad for society. I don't know why Tim is presenting it as a good thing. Lower prices aren't always a good thing, but it seems to be his premise that they are. 

 
Rich Conway said:
Going back to some things posted earlier, the idea of exceptions to minimum wage laws is a terrible idea.  The entire point of minimum wage laws is to ensure that workers can earn enough to survive.  We can argue whether the premise is faulty, or what the amount should be, but there shouldn't be any question that allowing exceptions for certain people defeats the purpose of the law in the first place.  If we allow person A to only accept non-skilled work at $10/hour, but person B can legally work the same job for $6/hour, a business will nearly always hire person B.  The ultimate effect is that it makes it that much more difficult for person A to find work at all, defeating the point of the minimum wage law in the first place.
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I think there should be exceptions, but they would probably be limited to part time and/or temporary jobs. There's no reason the high school kid working at the water park for the summer needs a living wage. There's no reason people need to pay higher prices for the water park so that the water park can pay it's temporary season of high schools workers a living wage, when everyone could pay lower prices for the water park by them being paid less than minimum wage under an exception. 

I don't however think the full time agricultural workers should be an exception, even when a lot of their work is seasonal, when obviously those workers are trying to raise families. 

 
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Politician Spock said:
I think there should be exceptions, but they would probably be limited to part time and/or temporary jobs. There's no reason the high school kid working at the water park for the summer needs a living wage. There's no reason people need to pay higher prices for the water park so that the water park can pay it's temporary season of high schools workers a living wage, when everyone could pay lower prices for the water park by them being paid less than minimum wage under an exception. 

I don't however think the full time agricultural workers should be an exception, even when a lot of their work is seasonal, when obviously those workers are trying to raise families. 
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Creating exceptions based on the job is a vastly different idea than exceptions based on the worker.  I'd have to consider that a bit more.

 
Henry Ford said:
Well, that's a level of consistency that's very respectable.  I believe that after decades of contributing to our society they should be allowed to remain. I have no wish to deport a 55-year-old man with early onset Parkinson's Disease.
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What is contributing to our society? Stealing someone's SS# (or making one up out of thin air as the common belief here) and not getting a speeding or parking ticket?

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
That is currently serves to do so does in no way indicate that it is necessary to achieve that function.

Refresh my recollection, 187 was no public benefits to illegals, was it not?  some of us non-Californians may appreciate the refresher. 
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Wow not wanting illegals on welfare is raising the ugly head of xenophobia to Tim.  No wonder I'm a racist to that kuuukuuuuu. 

 
The Commish said:
Wages are part of the trade equation....ultimate "free trade" includes no laws on wage....pay what the market bears.  Thanks for the link...I'll take a look :thumbup:  
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It is funny how the most ardent supporter of free trade today will likely support a 15 min wage. 

 
timschochet said:
Well...

Only yesterday I predicted that there would be changes coming on this subject. Maybe sooner than I expected? Reports are that Trump wants a comprehensive bill that would give legal status, not citizenship to undocumented...

I will try to find a link. But what a Nixon to China moment this would be! 
Click to expand...
But he is still Hitler if he builds the wall right?

 
Politician Spock said:
Because with the greatly increasing labor pool, wages over all would fall, which would have the effect of the products and services being provided by that labor being priced lower as a result of cheaper labor. But it would also cause other prices to fall to, as now the average household income drops, people can't afford to pay what goods and services are worth, thus many business will drop prices out of desperation to find customers. Overall this is really bad for society. I don't know why Tim is presenting it as a good thing. Lower prices aren't always a good thing, but it seems to be his premise that they are. 
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That's nonsense and if your wages are decreasing because of some illegal then you really should rethink your life choices. 

 
Dr Oadi said:
That's nonsense and if your wages are decreasing because of some illegal then you really should rethink your life choices. 
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With the open borders Tim wants, they wouldn't be illegal, which would mean those coming in aren't going to be limited to those willing to break the law. 

 
timschochet said:
Well...

Only yesterday I predicted that there would be changes coming on this subject. Maybe sooner than I expected? Reports are that Trump wants a comprehensive bill that would give legal status, not citizenship to undocumented...

I will try to find a link. But what a Nixon to China moment this would be! 
Click to expand...
That all happened. Because of this thread. Finally they listened to the wisdom here.  

 
Dr Oadi said:
But he is still Hitler if he builds the wall right?
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I think the wall is a dumb, bad, costly idea. 

But if there is a compromise on the table- the wall in exchange for legal recognition of non- felon undocumented aliens, and permission for them to stay here- I would take that deal. 

 
Can Topic #2 be the Environment?  It's one of the things that I am actually most concerned about under this administration, because theoretically the long-run effects could be the most devastating, though I have not looked at the latest on proposals.

 
Dr Oadi said:
Wow not wanting illegals on welfare is raising the ugly head of xenophobia to Tim.  No wonder I'm a racist to that kuuukuuuuu. 
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I think most people have stayed away from personal attacks in here and discussed policy and reasonable fixes to the various immigration issues we're facing as a country.  It's been quite respectful.  It's unfortunate when discussion strays from that model.

 
Henry Ford said:
I think most people have stayed away from personal attacks in here and discussed policy and reasonable fixes to the various immigration issues we're facing as a country.  It's been quite respectful.  It's unfortunate when discussion strays from that model.
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This is partly my responsibility. I did, in the past, call Dr. Oadi a racist, so I would not expect him to respond to any request I make for a civil and respectful discussion of issues.

But I believe that, based on the evidence, I was justified in calling Dr. Oadi a racist. So I certainly don't apologize for that. 

 
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