Stealthycat
Footballguy
guns saves lives, stops crimes happening, deters crime .. absolutely ! preach it !!
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Road rage shootout in local grocery store parking lot (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Nugget
- Start date
guns saves lives, stops crimes happening, deters crime .. absolutely ! preach it !!
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Or at least way more likely to be the case. That's a problem I have with the posts of SC and others of the same stance - they seem to not be able to understand that these guys were also "good guys with guns"... right up until they weren't. #### happens, why make it that much easier for these things to end in death?
dkp993
Footballguy
guns take lives, facility crimes happening, escalate crime…. absolutely! Preach it.
It works both ways whether you want to believe it or not.
FairWarning
Footballguy
A person died in my yard from being blindsided by a person who ran a stop sign while in a diabetic coma two years ago.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
A couple years ago i was driving and some lunatic pulled up next to me in a fit of rage. I shrugged to show I had no idea what his beef was. He continued screaming at me, and for some strange reason I felt compelled to give him the finger. Big mistake. As we entered the highway the guy tried running me off the road. Good thing I have a fast car because I’m pretty sure that guy would have killed me. I still have no idea what I did to anger him (other than the finger). I freely admit I’m not a very good driver, but I usually know when I #### up. Ever since then I am the nicest guy you’d ever meet on the road. Not worth getting killed over.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
dkp993
Footballguy
pinkham13
Footballguy
All this proves is that we are human given over to emotions and sin at times. Thanks for the shout out lol
pinkham13
Footballguy
He was running late to kill a baby at the local abortion clinic. A much easier target because they can’t shoot back and it’s more sociallly acceptable. Recommended even. To save the climate you know.
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Stealthycat
Footballguy
maybe so, maybe they'd have used knives, maybe they're have rammed each other with their vehicles etc
its it REALLY the kind of weapon that people use to kill that's the problem or is the real problem the people who are violent/mean/evil etc?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
my guns stay in their safe place never doing anything
show me one gun that ever "took" anything ? they're inanimate objects ! they don't DO anything on their own
its so weird, people talking about them like they're alive
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
The answer is yes to both.
ETA: Well, my answer is yes to both. You seem to be back into your mode of pretending that guns are the same as bats and butter knives.
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shadrap
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I think it was a Rogan pod I was listening to and they were going off about driving. Had a funny point about why stress and anger were so high on the road - evolutionarily speaking it's basically a hot minute in history from where we are walking around to going 80mph trapped in a box with 100s of objects also going 80mph.
It's easily the time I get the most pissed and swear the most. Try to keep it to myself more and keep the gestures out of sight too though.
So true KP. I was just telling my son that my driving habits have changed dramatically the last two years. I drove so much slower and never take my eyes off the road. I even use two hands.I think it was a Rogan pod I was listening to and they were going off about driving. Had a funny point about why stress and anger were so high on the road - evolutionarily speaking it's basically a hot minute in history from where we are walking around to going 80mph trapped in a box with 100s of objects also going 80mph.
It's easily the time I get the most pissed and swear the most. Try to keep it to myself more and keep the gestures out of sight too though.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Most of the time I drive like an old fart. That is more to do with the 5 car accidents I've been in than an encounter like yours though. That said, I still get super pissed off at the drop of a hat in the car - especially 4 way stops, and how for some reason the middle lane is now the slow lane on the interstates around here.So true KP. I was just telling my son that my driving habits have changed dramatically the last two years. I drove so much slower and never take my eyes off the road. I even use two hands.
dkp993
Footballguy
Nice. My daily is the GS450h. Was soooooo close to picking up a GSF. The new IS500’s are sweet too.
FairWarning
Footballguy
You need to get some roundabouts and Michigan Lefts into your driving routine.
What is a Michigan Left? Here you go - http://www.michiganhighways.org/indepth/michigan_left.html
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I do understand how some people would see inanimate objects are more or less dangerous - like, a person really is incapable of killing a family with a butter knife but with an automobile it happens frequently
I'm not pretending they're the same - however just like butter knives, cars and guns, isn't it really the person using them that determines if someone is killed ? There are accidents sure .... rare ones, most often (like almost everything) "accidents" are people being careless, right ?
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Yes, but my position is to address both sides of the equation, not just one.
You say you understand that, but IMO every time you type a "but they will just pick up a knife or bat" post you are in fact saying that there is either 0 or very little difference between a gun and that weapon. OR by that first sentence above you are saying you understand how others would believe that, but you don't?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
we have address the gun side - age buying restrictions, signs/laws everywhere saying don't shoot people, we have background checks, we don't allow a lot of type of guns to be sold, restrictions on ammo, taxations and we've seen new laws almost every year on guns as far as banning some type and all types depending on cites
now, compare that with the addressing done on criminals .... lesser sentences, early release
do you see that difference?
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
To me addressing the gun side does not equal a rise in gun sales and more people walking around with guns outside their home. I know you have said it (that we need to enforce the current laws), but we also don't seem to do that great of a job with all the other things that you listed because despite obvious red flags, people like the Buffalo shooter still seem to be able to get their guns legally. I also posted somewhere about the high correlation with domestic abusers and shooters, and the difficulty removing guns from their possession. IMO we have a long way to go to address the situation on the gun side, and I think that is the more straightforward side.
The criminals come in all shapes, sizes, and backgrounds with dozens of different profiles. Then we go down the rabbit yet again of the various types of shootings, their reasons, and how to address that. Much more nebulous and difficult, but still as important to honestly talk about and try to address.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Buffalo shooter had no red flags right ?
But even with all the red flags we see after people go off - what do you want? Federal Govt to arrest/imprison suspects or ?? I mean this is a free country
What's more amazing to me, is that this has nothing to do with life / lives. It really doesn't. A murder using a gun makes news ... but a shooter killing several people? that's headline shock news story and its almost glamourized and can certainly be used for political agenda and votes. Black on Black violence? shhhh, that's not good news, can't be used for political edge.
its so clear and obvious how political it is ... well, to me, a gun owner who see's attacks on his Rights
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Do you mean he had no red flags, or nothing popped up when he bought his guns? To me it's not the same thing, so that system is not working. I think in hindsight most of us probably see he is somebody who shouldn't be able to buy guns. I think you are one who listens to Krystal and Saager, right - or is that your buddy who is lurking and loving your posts and not you? They had a great episode at the beginning of the week and they highlighted how many of these mass shooters or bombers have been able to complete their missions despite obvious signs and/or being under their eye. Again, what we are doing is not working. Not pretending I have all the answers, but I am saying that IMO the things we have in place are not working and need to be adjusted. I would add more as well (ie no CC or open carry), but I know you don't want to hear that.
And trust me, I am not holding my breath on any of this. In the end, I think for the people in charge these types of things happening seem to be the cost of doing business in the US. No party is doing much of anything, doesn't matter who is getting shot or where, it seems to be part of what we are as a country now.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
The totalitarian left speaks!KarmaPolice said:
Any other God given rights you think we should take away?
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dkp993
Footballguy
Owning a gun is a God given right now? Interesting. I’m a huge fan of our founding fathers but God’s? Yeah not so much.
timschochet
Footballguy
It depends on the god. Myself, I’ve always preferred Dionysus. He doesn’t want anyone to have guns, he wants us to have booze and sex.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Not sure which of my two positions are totalitarian or how I am now "the left", but you can clarify more if you want. I hope not many disagree that we should have red flag laws that actually work or are enforced, so I am guessing your beef is with my stance that more people walking around with guns is a bad thing. Hardly totalitarian though, but you got your reaction....
Stealthycat
Footballguy
KarmaPolice said:
ok lets look at other things - are our laws on DUI's working in your opinion? yes - in that
1991 and 2019, the rate of drunk driving fatalities per 100,000 population has decreased 51% nationally, and 70% among those under 21. These statistics and others are positive indicators of the gains being made to fight drunk driving.
The "system" of legalized alcohol and driving and DUI's etc .... is it working? Yes - it is working because almost all of the people on the roads today are sober drivers, right? its NOT working in that a very small % don't obey the laws and neglect personal responsibility
why isn't owning a gun the same ? I'd argue the common sense gun laws we have ARE working - working well because we had what, 3 decades of decreasing violent crimes/murders pretty much every year except when covid hit and masks and hoods and shutdowns and all that happened and the criminal population took advantage.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
no, I don't listen to Krystal and Saager .... never have
Stealthycat
Footballguy
and who would be in charge of that? Hillary and Democrats and how she/they orchestrated the Russia lies/fake fiasco? maybe I want Trump to be the decider, maybe he to elect the disinformation counsel? Or Obama and the IRS targeting conservatives, maybe they can dictate who gets looked at with red flag laws?
or
instead of allowing all the crooks in DC to decide who gets looked at - we implement much harsher penalties for violent crimes/murders, get them off the street for lifetime, we run national ad's on the crackdowns, media shows it often, examples given, zero tolerance and we go back to stressing personal responsibility for actions. Would it help? Well, we've removed many layers of those things and how's that worked?
red flag laws in their ideal form are great - but they rarely work. I promise you 100% police would move on a red flag reported man who was known to have an AR15 before moving on a reported man who didn't have access to anything but knives and we know for a fact, 4X more people are murdered with knives. That's targeting gun owners - which is always what gun control threads ends up isn't it ?
target gun owners, make gun owners pay, make gun owners into the bad guys ..... funny how non-gun owners never, ever, EVER have to give up anything to make this country safer .... funny isn't it ?
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
No, SC - I don't think our DUI laws are where they should be either. The guy I work with is an example, and I know people have others in their life with similar stories. I think in both cases there is a general mentality in the country that prohibits us from really enforcing those things hard how they should be. It's who we are, for better and worse.
Not going to touch your last post with blaming the left for everything. It's beyond tiring.
Not going to touch your last post with blaming the left for everything. It's beyond tiring.
dkp993
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
What could we do to make DUI obsolete? To stop literally millions of DUI drivers - in your opinion ? Give me 3 really good things we do as a society
humor me
Nugget
Footballguy
Ban alcohol. Add breathalyzers to all vehicles. Mandatory 10 years in prison for all DUI convictions.
FairWarning
Footballguy
May as well live in an Islamic state then.
FairWarning
Footballguy
It doesn't matter if its drugs, guns, alcohol - there is always the fringe that will do their thing that hurts society.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
ban alcohol was tried and failed - would you really take away alcohol from 250 million Americans for the damages done with 1 million idiots ?
you'd never ever ever get everybody breathalyzers on vehicles and if you DID, many people would disable them or figure out an easy way around them ... you'd really put that much trouble on 227 million drivers with that added cost and trouble for the 1-2 million who DUI every year?
mandatory 10 years prison? that's adding 1.5 million to our prison system, 1.5 million and how many moms and dad's in that group ...... would you really do that?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
so what are we to do ? accept that some people are NOT going to be responsible, some people will fail, some people will intentionally commit crimes and evil etc?
are you saying pass good, common sense laws like we have on alcohol, guns, drugs ... do the best we can and the rest is the cost of having a free society ?
FairWarning
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Dude, let's not play this dumb "stop" something nonsense. That is never my position.
I work with a guy working on his 5th DUI. And still is able to drive. How about we make that way more strict? He should not have a license, in the same way (IMO) domestic abusers and people who threaten to shoot up schools shouldn't be legally able to purchase guns.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I will attempt to make my overall point. Our laws and the enforcement of them should reflect our values as a country in theory, right? Like I said, I know multiple people with multiple DUIs. It's a joke. We've seen how many of these mass shooters probably should have had something pop up on a Red Flag screening. I've given an example of police not taking all the guns from a domestic abuser and that person shooting his wife with the gun they didn't take. We still don't seem to have the stomach to actually remove guns or prohibit people from gettings guns who shouldn't own them on a large scale.
So I really disagree with SC that we have common sense laws and enforce them in this country when it comes to guns and booze. Yes, I 100% realize that people will still do things illegally, but that doesn't mean we give up trying to do something because we know that.
Nugget
Footballguy
Were you trying to look for potential solutions? Do you think that longer prison terms would change any behavior? Do you think breathalyzers added to cars could become an option for parents and insurance companies? Do you think increased taxes on alcohol would reduce consumption like tobacco? How about a conversation and some back and forth instead of your game of “gotcha”.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I assure you I am not playing - lets apply what we'd do to stop DUI's to what we'd do to stop murders with guns
Way more strict? Lets do that with people who break laws and murder others. Isn't that sensible?
Felons cannot own guns - we already have that
If someone threatens to do harm - that's a threat, not an actual act and I'm not sure what constitutional right we should take from those people and when/if to ever give them back. That is something our law enforcement is shackled with - do we want a society that punishes for threats ? If a woman screams at her husband "I'm going to kill you" should we imprison her? Take away some rights ? I mean we know restraining orders are just words - you'd have to literally imprison someone to keep them from doing what they threatened right ?
Still, I am not against something there - especially like on-line manifesto/threat types
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I think both sides talking about real solutions is important absolutely
a guy in prison can't kill/rape/hurt people on the streets I know that
breathalyzers would be costly, people would find a way around them, disable them - and who monitors, the Govt? they COULD make a difference but at a trillion dollar price tag and nobody would be for it
no - I don't think sin taxes are the way - if product is really bad like cigarettes or asbestos etc , then ban it
"gotcha" game is a way to try and get non-gun owners to see it from a gun owners view, perspectives and analogies on how we attack other things in our society that people abuse and take no responsibility in as well as the overall impacts whatever the subject is compared to other comparables
I know this - its super easy for a non-gun owner to say" well we'll just ban them !! " because that way, non gun owners give up nothing.
