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Roe v. Wade Overturned (1 Viewer)

our Constitution allows citizens the Right to keep and bear arms .... our laws/rules/restrictions give us age limits, and of course felons and mentally ill and drug users aren't suppose to have them but for a legal, law abiding citizen yes, guns are available for each and every one of us

I'm pro-gun, I'm pro-second Amendment, I'm pro-choice on people arming themselves

if I wasn't for those things, I'm be anti-
Unless you mean you think every able minded non felon should have a gun, sounds like you’re pro choice. 
It really isn’t that different with abortion. You talk about protecting women who get abortions, those in favor of stricter gun control are trying to protect others. You may think their logic is flawed, many will say the same about your stance with abortion rights. 

 
Unless you mean you think every able minded non felon should have a gun, sounds like you’re pro choice. 
It really isn’t that different with abortion. You talk about protecting women who get abortions, those in favor of stricter gun control are trying to protect others. You may think their logic is flawed, many will say the same about your stance with abortion rights. 


gun control isn't about protecting others - it really isn't 

I'm pro-gun / pro-choice in having guns and I'm anti-abortion / anti-choice in killing unborn life .... all those labels fit 

 
gun control isn't about protecting others - it really isn't 

I'm pro-gun / pro-choice in having guns and I'm anti-abortion / anti-choice in killing unborn life .... all those labels fit 


This is incredibly obnoxious. You don't get to tell other people what their political movement is about, especially if you offer no evidence to support the claim. The fact that you're accusing them of not caring about the health and welfare of other people makes it that much more obnoxious.

I'm done debating this or any issue with you. There's no path to rational conversation with someone who feels qualified to speak about the priorities and concerns of others with no supporting evidence.

If anyone is interested, here is a link to help needy women in Arkansas obtain an abortion. I'm gonna make a donation. Stealthy, thank you for giving me the impetus I needed to do so.

 
This is incredibly obnoxious. You don't get to tell other people what their political movement is about, especially if you offer no evidence to support the claim. The fact that you're accusing them of not caring about the health and welfare of other people makes it that much more obnoxious.

I'm done debating this or any issue with you. There's no path to rational conversation with someone who feels qualified to speak about the priorities and concerns of others with no supporting evidence.

If anyone is interested, here is a link to help needy women in Arkansas obtain an abortion. I'm gonna make a donation. Stealthy, thank you for giving me the impetus I needed to do so.


when you realize more people are beaten to death with hands/fists and 3X more are killed with knives than the semi-auto weapons anti's are trying to ban .... and then realize these shooters could just use other guns ..... I mean its obviously NOT saving lives, its about banning semi-auto rifles

if people REALLY wanted to stop killings, they'd focus on the killers or at least, the guns used in 90% of all killing ... that'd make sense wouldn't it ? based on those things yes, I can say reasonably that lives are not really really the priority at all in the anti-gun movement. I know some people, they might think it is - but when you look at the facts/stats? no, not really

if you feel you need to spend your money to help have unborn babies killed, that's legal to do 

 
This is incredibly obnoxious. You don't get to tell other people what their political movement is about, especially if you offer no evidence to support the claim. The fact that you're accusing them of not caring about the health and welfare of other people makes it that much more obnoxious.

I'm done debating this or any issue with you. There's no path to rational conversation with someone who feels qualified to speak about the priorities and concerns of others with no supporting evidence.

If anyone is interested, here is a link to help needy women in Arkansas obtain an abortion. I'm gonna make a donation. Stealthy, thank you for giving me the impetus I needed to do so.
Some people like to spout “facts” without showing anything. 
a little old but still (hint, gun control isn’t limited to semi auto) https://www.criminalattorneycolumbus.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/weapons-commonly-used-homicides.png

 
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Use the ignore function.   

Then grumble with the rest of us that it doesn't work that well and you still see 1/2 their posts as people quote them.  ;)  


I've practically begged for us to have a feature that hides replies to people on our ignore list.  That's an Invision thing I'm sure and there's probably not a ton of folks who really care but it would make my personal reading experience so much more enjoyable.

 
This is incredibly obnoxious. You don't get to tell other people what their political movement is about, especially if you offer no evidence to support the claim. The fact that you're accusing them of not caring about the health and welfare of other people makes it that much more obnoxious.

I'm done debating this or any issue with you. There's no path to rational conversation with someone who feels qualified to speak about the priorities and concerns of others with no supporting evidence.

If anyone is interested, here is a link to help needy women in Arkansas obtain an abortion. I'm gonna make a donation. Stealthy, thank you for giving me the impetus I needed to do so.
Gun control isn't about protecting people, it's about forcing anti-gun fears on the populace.  

Abortion bans aren't about forcing an opinion on a populace, it's about saving lives.   

;)

It's really interesting where people draw their lines in the sand of when something should be banned or regulated and when it shouldn't be.   I'd prefer neither be banned, but that's just me.  

 
Some people like to spout “facts” without showing anything. 
a little old but still (hint, gun control isn’t limited to semi auto) https://www.criminalattorneycolumbus.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/weapons-commonly-used-homicides.png


so if someone were really wanting to stop "gun violence" ... would they (using the above link) focus on the weapons least used used in deaths ?  

if I were trying to stop the bleeding on my body of 100 cuts, would I focus on the cuts bleeding the least, or the cuts bleeding the most ?

 
Gun control isn't about protecting people, it's about forcing anti-gun fears on the populace.  


banning some of the least used guns in murders (and 4X less used than knives/hand/feet in murders) is not focusing on protecting people especially with no bails, catch and release laws, early release of hardened criminals and the judicial system we have :(  it just isn't a viable thing to say "ban AR15's and save lives !! " is it ?

Abortion bans aren't about forcing an opinion on a populace, it's about saving lives.   

;)

It's really interesting where people draw their lines in the sand of when something should be banned or regulated and when it shouldn't be.   I'd prefer neither be banned, but that's just me.  


well what it is, is the SC saying there is no Constitutional Right to have an unborn killed. States will make their own laws/restrictions and like just about everything else that isn't a Right, society will conform to those laws or be criminals

you are right about lines ... people will argue abortion is Constitutional Right and should have few limitations, but argue on the other hand guns are not a Right and should be heavily restricted, even banned and even though the Supreme Court doesn't agree with either

 
Some / many of us are okay with abortion not being a constitutional right but in favor of federal law protecting the right up to viability. Or longer in certain situations. 
likewise, we’re good with a well regulated militia, and the right to bear arms. But not okay with just anyone driving a tank or carrying a rocket launcher. 

 
Some / many of us are okay with abortion not being a constitutional right but in favor of federal law protecting the right up to viability. Or longer in certain situations. 
likewise, we’re good with a well regulated militia, and the right to bear arms. But not okay with just anyone driving a tank or carrying a rocket launcher. 


why viability?  

 
I do think a line should be drawn somewhere. Mostly I disagree with Alito’s stance on that point and agree with previous courts. I’m not necessarily opposed to somewhat earlier like many countries use. 


my argument on viability is that if the unborn wasn't alive 1 minute before viability ... was it dead? Was there no pregnancy? I mean, to get to viability, the baby has to go through other developmental stages of its life, right ? and, people live all the time without being viable - when they're on life support and breathing machines etc. Are they not alive? 

that's why I always go back to this - if there is a normal pregnancy, a living unborn and a living mother has to exist or there isn't a pregnancy at all. that's the entire point of abortion - to kill the unborn life, causing the pregnancy to end

right ?

 
I mean, to get to viability, the baby has to go through other developmental stages of its life, right ? and, people live all the time without being viable - when they're on life support and breathing machines etc. Are they not alive? 
Is it murder for a family member with the appropriate relationship to disconnect someone from life support? 

 
Is it murder for a family member with the appropriate relationship to disconnect someone from life support? 


I know its killing a human life ..... "murder" is a personal or legal definition that isn't a constant 

"the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." ........... if its not legal, then it would be counted as murder

I watched a man died, slowly, everyday .......... if I ever got cancer like he had and someone slipped something in my tea in the latter stages and ended my life I'd call that a blessing, not a murder.

 
Too soon?
Too something.

First, I think it is too stupid to allow individuals to supplant the nation's policies with their own views.  Even if in the Walgreens case everything worked the way Walgreen expected it to - the cashier relatively quickly found another cashier to complete the sale and there were no other customers burdened by the momentary delay - this is still wrong!

Second, I think it is too dishonest for the GOP to blame their votes as some sacred stand for religious freedom.  

Third, I think it should be too revealing that the idea that Pro-Life as a movement is not pro-contraception.  Most individuals that embrace the pro-life label generically probably are, but the movement is not.  (There is a likely reason why nations that ban abortion tend to have higher abortion rates than their less restrictive peers.)  Should be too revealing, but somehow it won't be.

And that is too bad and too sad.

 
I know its killing a human life ..... "murder" is a personal or legal definition that isn't a constant 

"the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." ........... if its not legal, then it would be counted as murder

I watched a man died, slowly, everyday .......... if I ever got cancer like he had and someone slipped something in my tea in the latter stages and ended my life I'd call that a blessing, not a murder.
So, killing human life might be acceptable in some circumstances?  There might be times where it is better for the government to stay out of the way?  So, all of your "you must admit that a pregnancy is a human life, a baby " is ultimately irrelevant to the discussion the same way "you must admit that it is a human life, a man" with cancer.  The relevant question is what role the government should have in deciding whether your "blessing" is a harm to society, if it is, can they effectively protect your tea, if not, then what?

 
So, killing human life might be acceptable in some circumstances?  There might be times where it is better for the government to stay out of the way?  So, all of your "you must admit that a pregnancy is a human life, a baby " is ultimately irrelevant to the discussion the same way "you must admit that it is a human life, a man" with cancer.  The relevant question is what role the government should have in deciding whether your "blessing" is a harm to society, if it is, can they effectively protect your tea, if not, then what?


:lol:

Someone dying of cancer is not even close to the same thing as snuffing out life at the very beginning. 

Your false equivalencies aren't fooling anyone, BFS.

 
Too something.

First, I think it is too stupid to allow individuals to supplant the nation's policies with their own views.  Even if in the Walgreens case everything worked the way Walgreen expected it to - the cashier relatively quickly found another cashier to complete the sale and there were no other customers burdened by the momentary delay - this is still wrong!

Second, I think it is too dishonest for the GOP to blame their votes as some sacred stand for religious freedom.  

Third, I think it should be too revealing that the idea that Pro-Life as a movement is not pro-contraception.  Most individuals that embrace the pro-life label generically probably are, but the movement is not.  (There is a likely reason why nations that ban abortion tend to have higher abortion rates than their less restrictive peers.)  Should be too revealing, but somehow it won't be.

And that is too bad and too sad.
When the leftist media pumps out their propaganda I sometimes wonder who actually falls for it. Then I come in here and I'm immediately reminded. If you want to believe pro lifers -as a movement -  are anti contraception, knock yourself out. I gave my opinion on why I thought they voted against. If you you want to discuss that or offer your own opinion on why, I'm all ears. But imo the Walgreens silliness is just a deflection from the dishonest media.

 
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So, killing human life might be acceptable in some circumstances?  There might be times where it is better for the government to stay out of the way?  So, all of your "you must admit that a pregnancy is a human life, a baby " is ultimately irrelevant to the discussion the same way "you must admit that it is a human life, a man" with cancer. 


it always has been of course - killing humans has been something we've always found acceptable ... in wars, in self defense, for punishment of crimes, for entertainment (think Roman days) , for sacrifice to Gods (religions) etc etc

we also gladly accept tens of thousands of deaths every year with vehicles, hundreds of thousands with tobacco use, over a hundred thousand drugs/alcohol related deaths .... its collateral damage because we as a society are NOT giving up our cars, tobacco use, drugs and alcohol right ? its worth a million deaths and millions of injuries, isn't it ?

what we're talking about here though is INNOCENT life and that's very very different isn't it ?

The relevant question is what role the government should have in deciding whether your "blessing" is a harm to society, if it is, can they effectively protect your tea, if not, then what?


no, the relevant question is should society accept killing unborn babies ........... harming society has nothing to do with it. If it did? we could argue many people are harmful to society .... want to make it legal to kill them too ? of course not, that's silly .... because people have a right to live unless they've committed a crime with a death penalty

 
When the leftist media pumps out their propaganda I sometimes wonder who actually falls for it. Then I come in here and I'm immediately reminded. If you want to believe pro lifers -as a movement -  are anti contraception, knock yourself out. I gave my opinion on why I thought they voted against. If you you want to discuss that or offer your own opinion on why, I'm all ears. But imo the Walgreens silliness is just a deflection from the dishonest media.


We aren't anti-contraception.  At all.

They HAVE to throw that in and push a false narrative to fool people so they can get the sympathy vote by demonizing the other side.  It's a fake talking point.  No conservative I know is against the birth control bill, condoms or the day after pill.  

 
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When the leftist media pumps out their propaganda I sometimes who actually falls for it. Then I come in here and I'm immediately reminded. If you want to believe pro lifers -as a movement -  are anti contraception, knock yourself out. I gave my opinion on why I thought they voted against. If you you want to discuss that or offer your own opinion on why, I'm all ears. But imo the Walgreens silliness is just a deflection from the dishonest media.
And I gave my opinion on why suggesting religious freedom should be offered to a cashier such that the cashier is able to implement a policy that woman cannot buy contraception from her is wrong!  And if that wrongness is what GOP House members want to hang their hats on to excuse an excusable vote, then good for them that this :bs:  is so effective.   

Other than the media reporting the vote tallies and separately reporting the Walgreen story this has zilch to do with "dishonest media".  That is just some other deflection.  

 
it always has been of course - killing humans has been something we've always found acceptable ... in wars, in self defense, for punishment of crimes, for entertainment (think Roman days) , for sacrifice to Gods (religions) etc etc

we also gladly accept tens of thousands of deaths every year with vehicles, hundreds of thousands with tobacco use, over a hundred thousand drugs/alcohol related deaths .... its collateral damage because we as a society are NOT giving up our cars, tobacco use, drugs and alcohol right ? its worth a million deaths and millions of injuries, isn't it ?

what we're talking about here though is INNOCENT life and that's very very different isn't it ?

no, the relevant question is should society accept killing unborn babies ........... harming society has nothing to do with it. If it did? we could argue many people are harmful to society .... want to make it legal to kill them too ? of course not, that's silly .... because people have a right to live unless they've committed a crime with a death penalty
I respect your reverence for innocent human lives from the point of conception. I'm curious about your views on the hundred of million animals slaughtered each year in the USA. There are alternatives. In India, there are hundreds of millions of Hindus who have survived for generations without killing animals. There are many plant-based options in this country too. In addition, the meat industry is responsible in big part for destroying many of God's species and contributing to global warming. 

 
Third, I think it should be too revealing that the idea that Pro-Life as a movement is not pro-contraception.  Most individuals that embrace the pro-life label generically probably are, but the movement is not. 
Let's say for the sake of argument that this is correct.  So what?

All that matters to me is that I'm pro-life and I'm pro-contraception.  If somebody else in the pro-life movement is anti-contraception, you should go take that up with them.  I'll join you. 

But why I should be embarrassed that somebody who agrees with me on one issue disagrees with me on some other issue?  You agree with me on contraception -- do you therefore feel bad that you disagree with me about abortion?  Of course not.  So why am I supposed to care that some people in the pro-life camp disagree with me about contraception?  

 
Let's say for the sake of argument that this is correct.  So what?

All that matters to me is that I'm pro-life and I'm pro-contraception.  If somebody else in the pro-life movement is anti-contraception, you should go take that up with them.  I'll join you. 

But why I should be embarrassed that somebody who agrees with me on one issue disagrees with me on some other issue?  You agree with me on contraception -- do you therefore feel bad that you disagree with me about abortion?  Of course not.  So why am I supposed to care that some people in the pro-life camp disagree with me about contraception?  
I'm not suggesting that you be embarrassed.  I'm asking that you be aware.  When "you" as a single-issue voter cast that vote for the Pro-Life candidate did you even care to know their contraception position?  I think most do not.

 
:lol:

Someone dying of cancer is not even close to the same thing as snuffing out life at the very beginning. 

Your false equivalencies aren't fooling anyone, BFS.


I know its killing a human life ..... "murder" is a personal or legal definition that isn't a constant 

"the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." ........... if its not legal, then it would be counted as murder

I watched a man died, slowly, everyday .......... if I ever got cancer like he had and someone slipped something in my tea in the latter stages and ended my life I'd call that a blessing, not a murder.


He isn't the one that made the comparison. 

 
The relevant question is what role the government should have in deciding whether your "blessing" is a harm to society, if it is, can they effectively protect your tea, if not, then what?


no, the relevant question is should society accept killing unborn babies ........... harming society has nothing to do with it. If it did? we could argue many people are harmful to society .... want to make it legal to kill them too ? of course not, that's silly .... because people have a right to live unless they've committed a crime with a death penalty
Right!  We have a fundamental difference of opinion on the purpose of government.  I believe that government exist for the purpose "...to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity."   

That includes promoting what is good for society and discouraging to the degree feasible what is harmful to society.  It does not include making morality statements. 

So no, the relevant question is never "does society accept".  The question is whether something is good or bad for society?  And if society deems something as bad, are any of the means of discouraging it that is also cost effective?

In this case reasonable people can disagree as to whether abortion is a plus or minus for society.  That determination is almost entirely dependent on how horrible you see abortion.  What I think we are about to discover is that isn't even relevant as the answer to whether it can be cost effectively discouraged is going to be a "no" for the pro-life policies about to be implemented.  (But the answer is "yes" with healthy dosages of liberalism.) 

 
I respect your reverence for innocent human lives from the point of conception. I'm curious about your views on the hundred of million animals slaughtered each year in the USA. There are alternatives. In India, there are hundreds of millions of Hindus who have survived for generations without killing animals. There are many plant-based options in this country too. In addition, the meat industry is responsible in big part for destroying many of God's species and contributing to global warming. 


you want to compare slaughtering animals to slaughtering humans - is that the question ?  like, abortion to a meat processing facility or is it more a question of do I value human life over animal life or ?

what is the comparison you're trying to make ?

 
Right!  We have a fundamental difference of opinion on the purpose of government.  I believe that government exist for the purpose "...to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity."   

That includes promoting what is good for society and discouraging to the degree feasible what is harmful to society.  It does not include making morality statements. 

So no, the relevant question is never "does society accept".  The question is whether something is good or bad for society?  And if society deems something as bad, are any of the means of discouraging it that is also cost effective?

In this case reasonable people can disagree as to whether abortion is a plus or minus for society.  That determination is almost entirely dependent on how horrible you see abortion.  What I think we are about to discover is that isn't even relevant as the answer to whether it can be cost effectively discouraged is going to be a "no" for the pro-life policies about to be implemented.  (But the answer is "yes" with healthy dosages of liberalism.) 


except society doesn't dictate Constitutional Rights nor human rights for that matter - do they ?

I'm not going to put a price on an unborn baby - not my babies, not yours, not anyone else's ........ there have been societies/countries that have placed value and prices on life .....they turned towards a group and called them not good, not positive for society, not helping general welfare and they pretty much labeled people as not fit to live and it was ok to have them exterminated. We can see it all through history, and since Roe, we've seen unborn lives targeted and a society conditioned to accept it and finally, we've progressed beyond teachings of Margaret Sanger/Planned parenthood and Infanticide 

Thank God we have, and I'm continually amazed at how hard some people fight to allow unborn babies to be killed. Baffles me, it truly does :(

 
you want to compare slaughtering animals to slaughtering humans - is that the question ?  like, abortion to a meat processing facility or is it more a question of do I value human life over animal life or ?

what is the comparison you're trying to make ?
Of course I value human life over animal life. It's ok to use mice in experiments if it has a possibility of leading to a treatment for ALS or other  terrible diseases.

The question is what value do you place on animal lives, when there are alternatives that hundreds of millions people have proven to be healthy. And better for our children and their children regarding their future health. You express a lot of compassion for human embryos, I'm just curious about your compassion for other living species created by God.

 
The question is what value do you place on animal lives, when there are alternatives that hundreds of millions people have proven to be healthy. And better for our children and their children regarding their future health. You express a lot of compassion for human embryos, I'm just curious about your compassion for other living species created by God.


if you want to discuss the Christian God I can try and do that - I think animals/fish were put here on earth for humans, I think the Bible reflects that in many verses. I don't believe animals have souls. I don't believe in being cruel/mean to animals. I feel I have far closer connection that most on this forum do because I hunt and fish, I kill animals, I kill fish, I live in the outdoors as often as I can .... for 40 years I have been a part of the conservation of animals/fish/land in the USA. I place value on them absolutely ..... but they don't have souls. I place value on them, but they're not humans and they don't have Rights like we have. 

I think it people want plant based died, lab grown foods, insect foods or whatever fantastic, I support that, go for it

 

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