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Roethlisberger in the Super Bowl (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter BlueOnion
- Start date
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Yes. Seeing as Roethlieberger is in rareified air in terms of what he's been able to accomplish in just 2 years in the league (remember too, he was pressed into service in week 2 of his rookie year and didn't get a year to learn the NFL game like Palmer, for example, did...) then you cannot call him a choker even if he loses next Sunday. If you lose a game you're not supposed to even BE in, it's not a choke. A choke is when you're favored to win and stink the place out, leading to a loss.Way to go there Mr. Sensitive. I have not called Roethlisberger a choker and even acknowledged if he was to lose the AFC Championship Game for a second year in a row the sample size is to small. My question, which you are missing is, when can we start labeling a guy? Would 2 straight AFC Championship losses be to early to label someone a choker? Would it be to early to start speculating?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Any playoff game is a big game, whether it is a wild card game, a divisional game, a conference championship game or the Super Bowl.Roethlisberger is already 3-1 in playoff games in only two NFL seasons. Even if he loses this weekend to Denver, he is not a choker. To suggest otherwise is absurd.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
I would say a guy with 23 playoff wins, a .719 winning percentage in the playoffs, 4 conference titles, and a Super Bowl ring is a vastly superior big game QB to a guy with a .231 playoff winning percentage, 1 conference title and no rings, when both have made the playoffs 10 straight years, but that's just me.Maybe one is less evil than the other. One is a notorious AFC Championshop Choker while the other is a Choke Artist, specializing in Super Bowls.
FUBAR
Footballguy
No, it's too early. 2 games doesn't make one a choker, it will take a couple more.Plus, he isn't even favored this year, thus if he loses, it's simply that the better team won.
You really can't label any player after two years, unless he's made idiotic decisions and thrown his career away. HOFer, "bust", "choke artist", etc. We can't really label him as a game manager or gunslinger for that matter yet. Ben is what he is, one of the most successful QBs after two years in the league, ever.
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The Hank
Footballguy
mind you, this is only his 2nd season in the NFL, and his 2nd appearance in the afc championship, labelling him at this point in his career is frivolous.i think at this point, the only label i'd give him is above average QB, not quite upper echelon, but he's almost at that point.
Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
Well then let's take John Elway's and Jim Kelly's bust out of the HOF. They lost many more Super Bowls than they won. By your definition Steve Young was a loser. He lost his first two NFC Championship Games.
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BlueOnion
Footballguy
I don't have a definitition of what a loser is, that is why I am asking everyone else. Sure some people though Young was a loser, as well as Favre and Elway. Heck, some still consider Marino a loser and are throwing Peyton in that pot too. I am just asking when can we start 'thinking' about throwing Roethlisberger in that pot too.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
Ben has a .837 winning percentage as a pro QB. That is insane. Repeating: That is insane.
why does the AFC Championship game mean so much more to you than a divisional game or wild card game? They all are huge games where your season ends with a loss.
bigliebdogg
Footballguy
stupidest. thread. ever.a label?he's 23. he's clutch. and he hasn't even lost yet. he's only 0-1. whoever startest this thread is a complete putz.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Even if the Steelers lose this week I don't think it is fair to put a label on a guy after 2 seasons. If so I would hate to think of the label you would have given Terry Bradshaw. He sucked for 4 years before becoming one of the best "BIG GAME" QBs of all time.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Folks, Blue Onion is the same guy who once told me that Morton Andersen was the Wayne Gretzky of the NFL, so I would take his comments with a grain of salt.
C
CrossEyed
Guest
Uh, you do realize he was a rookie last year, don't you?
BlueOnion
Footballguy
I agree a 100%. And frankly, 31 quarterbacks are going to 'choke' (<--- sarcasm) each season anyway so I don't label players before their season is over. However, some people like to label certain players and I am just trying to figure this out.For instance, 2 years ago the Chiefs were storming towards an undefeated season, were one of the most prolific scoring teams in history and had secured the #1 seed to play all their playoff games at the most daunting home stadium in the league, Arrowhead. However, Indianpolis came into town after playing in the wildcard round and Peyton had a darn near perfect game to lead the Colts to a victory. However, this did little to define Peyton's ability because it was not the Patriots and was not the AFC Title Game.
BlueOnion
Footballguy
I stand by this comment. Both players are the all-time leading scorer for their respective league, although both players seem to be specialist. Morton only kicked, he did not tackle, he did not throw and he did not catch. Likewise Wayne did not check, did not play goalie and never played on the defensive backline.
Both were great at what they did, but both only contributed to a portion of the team game.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Meh.Jim Kelly won 4 AFC Title games and no one considers him to be a big game QB because he never won a Super Bowl. The same was true for Elway until he did win the Super Bowl.
If you are a good QB on a bad team then you are a loser cause you can't make the playoffs. If you make the playoffs but routinely lose in the first round then you are a choker. If you win in the playoffs but lose in the Chamipnship round then you are tainted cause you can't get to the big dance. And if you make the Super Bowl but lose then you suck cause you can't win a "big game".
People love to put labels on QBs and coaches but the truth is it a team game.
Banger
Footballguy
The term "choke" is so overused it's getting ridiculous. If a QB loses a game it does not mean he choked. A QB can play a bad game and it doesn't mean that he choked. Sometimes QB's just lose the game, it happens. A choke is when someone is heavily favored and totally falls apart and puts up a goose egg.
-OZ-
Footballguy
If you seriously are comparing a PK to a Center (and captain) in hockey, you don't understand hockey, at all.Gretzky is much more Bradshaw or Montana than Morten.I stand by this comment. Both players are the all-time leading scorer for their respective league, although both players seem to be specialist. Morton only kicked, he did not tackle, he did not throw and he did not catch. Likewise Wayne did not check, did not play goalie and never played on the defensive backline.
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Blue Onion losing all kinds of credibility in this thread.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
You weren't the guy telling me Nate Kaeding should have been rookie of the year over Roethlisberger last year, were you?Bradshaw and Montana are not the most prolific scorer's in their respective sport.
but he's 10-9 in the playoffs and Ben is 3-1
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
More than half the teams in the NFL have only been to one Super Bowl in the history of the franchise. What's your point?
pghrob
Footballguy
Roethlisberger is far -- very far from being a choke artist. All the talk about if he loses in the AFC Championship and will that give him the choker label? It's hogwash.For those of you paying attention, Big Ben has won 6 must win games in a row for the Steelers to get to this point of playing in the AFC Championship.Beat Chicago (top D)Beat Minnesota (Streaking team)Beat Browns (shellacked them)Beat LionsBeat Cincy (playoffs on road)Beat Indy (You know the story)For a 2nd year player, on a team of veterans who are accustomed to winning, playing for a city that demands nothing short of 150% from their QB, who wins 6 must-win games is the farthest thing from a choke artist that I can think of.Ben Roethlisberger is no choke artist.
FUBAR
Footballguy
Ok, got it. You're either underestimating Wayne Gretzky or overestimating that stat in the NFL.Negative. I said Morten Anderson is the all-time scoring leader in the NFL.Is Onion actually saying Morten Anderson > Montana or Bradshaw?
Is Morten Anderson the best player in the history of the NFL? Arguably?
Serenity Now
Footballguy
I'd say no, only because of the game of expectations. Nobody really expected the Steelers to get where they are today. They are where they are largely because of their QB. So if they lose this week, they were simply 'playing over their heads' and it was a nice run. It's a big benefit to being a Cinderella type team.
Warsteinner
Footballguy
If Ben gets a ring this year does it further solidify what a loser Peyton Manning is?
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Yep, and some teams have never been there:Arizona Cardinals - last appearance in championship game - 1948
Detroit Lions - last appearance in championship game - 1957
Cleveland Browns - last appearance in championship game - 1965
New Orleans Saints (franchise started in 1967)
Seattle Seahawks (franchise started in 1976)
Jacksonville Jaguars (franchise started in 1995)
Houston Texans (franchise started in 2002)
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Playing "over their heads"? I believe the Steelers are 26-4 with Roethlisberger over the last two seasons. How would them reaching the AFC title game being considered playing over their heads when taking this into consideration?
I don't see how. I mean, in a little over three weeks, either Roethlisberger, Jake Plummer, Matt Hasselbeck or Jake Delhomme will have won a Super Bowl, so no matter how you slice it, there is going to be another Super Bowl-winning QB in the NFL whose name isn't Peyton Manning.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
It's nice that people see that the Steelers are where they are largely because of their QB. And that doesn't relate only to the playoffs.Had Ben not missed those few games in the season, the Steelers likely would've been 13-3 and not the "Cinderella" team they are now. This team is better right now than the 15-1 team was last year at any point in the season, and a lot of that has to do with Roethlisberger's improvement from last year to this year.
The defense has more experience this year too, especially in the secondary. But Ben's been the key.
Serenity Now
Footballguy
Because all season long there were talks about the Steelers not being as good as they appeared to be. Hey, I think Roethlisberger has "it" in the same way that Brady does, but they came in as the 6th seed and beat a team that most people thought they had no reasonable chance of winning. Therefore, if they don't win against Denver, I doubt that he'll be tagged as someone who can't win the big game.Maybe the point is that the Steelers are consistently underrated? Except by their fans?
BlueOnion
Footballguy
You have to give credit where credit is due. I don't think Roethlisberger is a big reason for the Steelers success, but when the team does need a play from the quarterback, Roethlisberger has delivered. There is no disputing this; he does what he is asked to do and more times than not he succeeds at it.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
You could not be more wrong about this, with all due respect. There's a reason for this :Steelers under Maddox since 2003 : 7-13
Steelers under Roethlisberger : 26-4
This is with largely the same team surrounding both - even players who have come and gone overlap both QB's tenures. If you want to disregard the 2003 season though, the numbers are worse : 1-3 for Maddox (.250) compared with Ben's .867 winning percentage.
Roethlisberger is a HUGE reason for the Steelers' success. Enormous, really. I have been yelling this since last season and will continue to do so until everyone realizes it's true.
Nihilist Pig
Footballguy
After one (of anything), you can notice it.After two, you can wonder whether it's the start of a trend.After three, you can begin to "label."This is my opinion on these season-sized matters.After his first year, Ben took a great regular season record into the AFCC and lost to a great team. Everybody noticed. If you're into reading trends and giving out labels, you either noticed that this was a phenomenal start to a potentially brilliant career, or a sign of things to come in folding under pressure. No real evidence either way. Just groundwork.After his second year, no matter which way it goes, I don't think it's fair to label him, but the yay-sayers (or nay-sayers) are going to be warming up their engines. If he wins, it's another positive step in the right direction, and even better post-season winning percentage...whether he then wins the SB or not. If he loses, he will have fallen in the same spot both years in his short career. Not a bad spot to get to and stall, but fuel for the fire. Will it be because he plays badly again? (More fuel for the fire.) Will it be a flukey loss? ("Curse" talk can begin.) Will it be somebody else's fault? (Probably more blame on Cowher, then.) But however you slice it, two is a trend.If he gets to, and loses a third game at the AFCC level or beyond in the next couple years, then I think a label is fair. Maybe not justified, but at least fair. Homers will be able to argue in his defense if he played well but lost anyway, and haters will be able to point to the scoreboard and call him Peyton Jr or whatever.No matter how he gets there, I don't think we can label him a great or a choker after this season. Next time around, I feel he's fair game. Whole seasons don't pass often enough to wait for a statistically meaningful sample size in the NFL. Three attempts is long enough to hang a label on a guy.That's why I don't feel Cowher is unjustly labeled. I think he's a great coach, and I'm rooting for him to break the streak. But till he does, I don't begrudge the haters their fun.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Agree 100%.I can understand why people wouldn't think he is because he's not required to put the Steelers on his back and carry them. However, I think he's the single BIGGEST reason why they're as good as they are right now.
He makes the Steelers a balanced offense that they haven't had in a long, long time. He gives defenses the choice between stopping the run with an extra safety or dropping the safety back in pass coverage, and he's got the arm to take advantage of it. It's not like either of them were very good at it, but in the past, guys like Maddox and Kordell could throw the ball as long as defenses stacked the line to stop the run, but the second defenses knew they had to pass, it was over. Roethlisberger can pass under any circumstances, and he's come up big when the Steelers have needed him in crunch time time and time again.
The defense is good, and the running game is always solid as long as the OL is healthy. Roethlisberger is the piece that brings it all together.
Vibe Raiders
Footballguy
I think everyone worries too much about labels...the guy is in his second year...there is obviously a HUGE drop off when he is not behind center so he must be doing something right. He went to a good situation and has performed extremely well...he is still going through growing pains...time will tell relax and enjoy the ride!Being a great QB doesn't necessarily win Playoff games...ask the Colts and Dolphins...but being productive within a system does.
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Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
I know you agree and so does everyone else who watches the Steelers every week. I think the general population of NFL fans is just now finally getting to see it. Up until this playoff started, most NFL fans saw the Jets playoff game, New England playoff game, and the regular season game against the Colts this year on national TV and said : "This guy's not all that good" (despite the San Diego and Baltimore wins on MNF) - the last two weeks, though, they're getting to see what we have seen almost every week for the last two seasons.
BlueOnion
Footballguy
I was not trying to belittle him at all. The Steelers success is predicated on their ability to run the ball. Whether they actually run the ball well or not, the Steeler mantra dictates defenses try to defend against the run first and foremost. Anytime the Steelers pass the ball, it is almost a 'trick' play. I am not saying Roethlisberger could not be a successful 40-pass attempt quarterback a game, I am just saying he has not been asked to do that yet. However, we can judge him by what he has been asked to do and I just wanted to acknowledge that he has exceled (sp??) at it.You're my boy Blue, but this statement is just flat out silly....
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Really? How many trick plays did the Steelers run last week when torching the Colts secondary in the first quarter? And if you say a play action is a trick play, I will laugh in your e-face.
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