Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
"Roethlisberger manages the game...." (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Evilgrin 72
- Start date
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
I just checked through my avatar photos and the only one that's still usable is a picture of a bathroom. Looks like I'll have to stick with scowling Bill.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
There is one of him smiling in this link.:http://kickingtotalasscom.ezhostsite.com/bill_cowher.htmlI just checked through my avatar photos and the only one that's still usable is a picture of a bathroom. Looks like I'll have to stick with scowling Bill.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
It's kind of small, but I am sporting it now. I suppose I could go through the effort of blowing it up and cropping out the face, but I am way too tired.There is one of him smiling in this link.:http://kickingtotalasscom.ezhostsite.com/bill_cowher.htmlI just checked through my avatar photos and the only one that's still usable is a picture of a bathroom. Looks like I'll have to stick with scowling Bill.
Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
Everyone has their own opinion but those who watch this kid every week have long realized the Steelers have something special here. Take his name and offense out of it and consider any 23 year old QB putting up playoff stats like this against the three best teams in the AFC on the road in consecutive weeks:9.4 Yards per Pass Attempt7:1 TD/INT Ratio (not including 1 TD run)68% completions124.8 QB Rating 3-0 recordI'd guess most of the HOF QBs have never had a postseason like this. Combined with his 26-4 record overall call him what you want but the kid is a winner and treading in some unchartered territory. Roethlisberger would be the youngest starting QB to ever win a Super Bowl.
Last edited by a moderator:
BlueOnion
Footballguy
The bolded part is what makes him a 'game manager' and I am not sure why people are up in arms about this label. We can only judge Big Ben on what he is asked to do (his job) and I am not sure any quarterback is doing their job any better than Big Ben.However, saying Big Ben is anything more than a game manager, is a real slap in the face to Pittsburgh's running attack, which is arguably the best in the NFL.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Big Ben is a truly outstanding player. I have not seen a Qb prospect as impressive to me since Peyton Manning. I think he will be a force in FF in 2006 going in to his 3rd year as the Steelers trust and lean on him more and more and his numbers will improve.I have no doubt that he is capable of not only winning the big game but carrying the offense which will shift more towards a balanced attack.A good point is made about Ben getting the Stillers the lead early and them then shifting to the running game because they can though.
jurb26
Footballguy
Ben attempted 154 passes in the 1st half vs 114 in the 2nd half this season. Pitt uses his arm to open up leads and open up running lanes. Those who watch the games on a regular basis know this. He has constantly bailed the team out of 3rd and longs adn kept the Steelers offence moving in games that the ground attack was struggling. Oh an no, Pitt's running game is not arguably the best in the NFL. Not even close. It may have been last year, but not this year. KC and Sea are lightyears ahead of Pitt when it comes to running the ball. I would also say that both Den and Atl are better than Pitt as well. So, we are looking at best at 5th.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
How can you possibly say he's not anything more than a game manager after watching these last 3 games? Seriously? You're a Colts fan, from an offensive standpoint, was it the running game that beat your team, or was it Roethlisberger throwing strikes all over the place in the first half? Even Doss said after the game that they came in expecting run, run, run, and Roethlisberger just ate them up. I think his quote was (paraphrased) : "We didn't know what was going on." Ben killed Cincinnati, he killed Indy, he killed Denver. What more does the guy have to do to be considered a good passing QB and not just a caretaker? He has 8 TDs (7 passing, 1 rushing) in 3 games thus far, and has accounted for 67% of the Steelers' yardage in those 3 games (665 yards out of 999 total)I simply do not understand why people feel that a QB cannot have a huge impact on a game averaging 24 throws per game. Where's the cutoff? He threw 29 passes yesterday, does that qualify? Do you have to average over 30 attempts? He KILLED Denver yesterday on 3rd downs and in the red zone and was easily the biggest reason for that win - he carried that offense as the Broncos were taking Parker completely out of the game plan with their defensive scheme.
Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
The playoff stats would indicate otherwise.Yards per Roethlisberger pass attempt: 9.4
Yards per Steelers rush attempt: 3.2
The old Steelers teams lost in the playoffs because they could only run the ball. Teams would load up to stop the run and the Steelers couldn't make plays in the passing game. Now I think you could reasonably make the argument that their passing game is more effective than their running game. They pass early in the game to get ahead and then resort to the run to eat clock.
BlueOnion
Footballguy
I think we may have different definitions of a quarterback who is a good 'manager' and I think Steeler fans continually want to sell their running game short to boost Roethlisberger's perception. I think Ben is outstanding, but when a defense sells out 8 or 9 guys to stop the run and a quarterback is having success against 2 or 3 defensive backs who are biting on play-action, it is not the quarterback that is beating the defense. The Doss quote you used best exemplies this.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
I see your point in that the threat of the running game opens things up for the pass, and that's true, but without a QB that can take advantage of that, you're sunk. You think the same doesn't apply to any good QB - Brady, Montana, Manning, Young, etc.. included? You HAVE to have a running game (or the threat of one) to keep defenses honest, that doesn't diminish the QB play. People have called Cowher a choker for not winning more in the playoffs, but Frenchy hit the nail right on the head in the preceding post - they never had a QB that could win the game for them when the defenses sold out vs. the run. Roethlisberger CAn do that, and that's what separates him from all the Steeler QBs since Bradshaw.And I AM a Steeler fan, not a Roethlisberger fan. I am not selling the running game short in order to promote Ben - he's the first Steelers QB I have had largely complimentary things to say about since the early 80s. They have lived and died by the run for 20 years now, but it's Roethlisberger who is WINNING games for them now, not managing them.
There's a reason I'm such a big Roethlisberger booster - if he were merely average or was killing the Steelers repeatedly with bad turnovers, I wouldn't BE such a big promoter of his. I call it like I see it, and his arrival has had the most positive impact on this team of any event in a decade, if not longer.
jurb26
Footballguy
Well BlueOnion, all I can say is that it is abundantly clear that you have not watched nearly enough Steeler football if you think that all Ben can do is beat 8-9 man boxes with his throws. It is even clearer that you must not have watched the AFCC game either. Den was throwing everything they had at Ben. They tried to blitz packages to confuse and throw off his timing. He torched them with accuracy, quick reads and timing. They tried dropping 7 back in coverage. He beat them with patients in the pocket and his ability to move. They tried 8-9 in the box to stuff the run, he threw over top of them with well executed PA passes. There is nothing wrong with the fact that a lot of people do not see every Steeler game. What I find comical though is that these very people are constantly reading stat lines and trying to tell the very people who DO watch every game, every week just how a player looks. Believe me when I say, Steeler fans have never had false impressions about how good their QB play is. As a matter of fact, as a Steeler homer I have long felt sorry for any QB who starts in this town. This is a very demanding crown and fan base and one that historically likes to come down on QBs for some reason. If they are convinced that the guy is so good, maybe others should stop looking for reasons to invalidate it and just watch the games and enjoy the show.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
This is part of the problem. With the exception of one nice stretch Kordell had for part of the '97 (I think) season, I have been basically killing Steeler QBs for the last 20 years. Problem is, I only started posting here around the time of Roethlisberger's arrival and have been (correctly) touting him. Thus, people assume my praise is blind homerism, and it absolutely isn't. It's 100% justified... I was beginning to think these last 3 games would have everyone seeing it, but I guess there are still a few who either don't or don't want to.
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
here you go GB:http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7838/smilingcowher0kd.jpgIt's kind of small, but I am sporting it now. I suppose I could go through the effort of blowing it up and cropping out the face, but I am way too tired.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Beautiful. Thanks, bro... slapping this one on right now.here you go GB:http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7838/smilingcowher0kd.jpgIt's kind of small, but I am sporting it now. I suppose I could go through the effort of blowing it up and cropping out the face, but I am way too tired.
BlueOnion
Footballguy
I think I get a lot of leeway with you EvilGrin, but I don't think other people are really giving me enough credit. I am a die hard Viking fan and if I could substitute the Vikings organization with any other organization it would be the Steelers. I think the Steelers are an A+ organization from top to bottom, and what I love most is they are a run first offense with a strong defense; and both units just want to punch you in mouth.But all great offenses (which the Steelers clearly are this year) like great fighters, have a great punch and an almost equally great counter-punch (or second punch). The Steelers great punch is a running game. The Patriots great punch is the short passing. The Colts great punch is Manning. The 49ers great punch was the short-passing game. But what made these offenses great (or not great) was the quality of their second punch. The Steelers have Roethlisberger, the Patriots would have a running game, the 49ers had a running game and the Colts did not have a running game.
But as long as Roethlisberger is the second-punch for the Steelers, he may not get the credit he deserves. It is just the way of the beast and the Steelers are a running team; the Steelers know and the Steelers opponents know it.
However, this does not belittle Roethlisberger in the least, it just puts a ceiling on the credit he can be given.
Brady was a game manager against the Rams in the Super Bowl. But until he started throwing 40+ passes a game (week 1 on Monday Night against the Steelers), Brady was viewed as the counter (second) punch.
Let me say nobody has had a better playoff run this year than Roethlisberger. He is the leading candidate (in my opinion) for playoff MVP. But he is still the second weapon on that offense.
Arm Chair Express
Footballguy
He looked great and I was one of his doubters. Denver did drop 2 easy picks though! Other than that he managed the game just fine finding the open man when Denver sold out for the run.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
You get leeway from me because I like you and respect your opinions. However, I think this year that Roethlisberger HAS been the big punch. Countless games, he has won the game in the first half with his arm, allowing the Steelers to just run clock in the second half. In such games, it's clearly Ben who won the game for them, but the stats won't bear that out. If they throw 15 times in the first half, Roethlisberger goes 12-15 for 165 yards and 2 TDs, then they only pass the ball 4 times the entore second half because they have a 21-3 lead... Roethlisberger ends up with stats like 13-19, 182 yds, 2/0 while the running game ends up with 206 yards, because they ran 35 times for 155 yards in the second half to eat up clock. Looking at those numbers after the game, you'd say that Ben wasn't asked to do much, but didn't make mistakes, and managed the game well. When, in fact, that wasn't the case at all. He won the game for them with his arm, and put them in a position to run the ball ad infinitum late to gobble up the clock.
BlueOnion
Footballguy
I cannot argue with Roethlisberger's obvious impact on games, his performance in the games strongly influences the outcome of the games. Given his consistency in making plays, it is no coincidence (sp??) that the Steelers have consistently won games with him at a quarterback.For myself (and I am probably in a minority), I cannot put Roethlisberger in the upper tier of quarterbacks until defenses prioritize Roethlisberger as the #1 thread, the Steelers running game as the #2 threat and Big Ben still goes out and post a 100+ quarterback rating.
It is the Alvin Harper syndrome. People were willing to believe Alvin Harper was a great #1 wide receiver based on his production lining up opposite of Micheal Irvin, but the reality was Alvin Harper was the counter (second punch).
*** I am not saying Roethlisberger cannot be the #1 weapon on offense, I am just saying he has not been given the opportunity as of yet. And until it happens, it has yet to happen.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Did you happen to notice what happened to the 3 teams that obviously didn't prioritize Ben as the # 1 threat? Wake up man--Ben is clearly the biggest threat on the Steelers offense and defenses are realizing that now. Any yes Ben has certainly been given the opportunity to be the # 1 threat (see the 3 playoff games this year). It really seems like you didn't even watch any of the Steeler playoff games.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Quick question : In 1998, John Elway missed 3 games due to injury. He averaged only 215 passing yards a game, threw only 22 TDs and didn't rank in the top-10 in the league in yards, attempts, or completions - far from it, in fact. TD ran for over 2,000 yards and won the MVP, and the Broncos had a 52/48 run/pass split : the running game was clearly the #1 option. Elway, in the Broncos 3 playoff games that year, had 691 yards and 3 TDs, with 1 INT. Does any of this sound eerily familiar?Why then, was Elway named the starting QB in the Pro Bowl and lionized as one of the NFL's all-time greats and not simply labeled as a "game manager" who had only to hand off to TD and not make mistakes?
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
By the way, just in passing, Roethlisberger's playoff numbers so far this year, projected over 16 games :3664 yards - 37.3 TDs - 80 rush yds - 5.3 TDsWouldn't be bad fantasy #s for a guy who simply "wasn't making mistakes"
BlueOnion
Footballguy
The pro-bowl question is really not a fair question. I think we both know the pro bowl is more of a popularity contest than any sort of true reflection of the years best players at the respective positions.But Elway is a great example, he had to learn to become a great game manager for his team to ultimately succeed. I am not sure why people think the label 'game manager' is in some way a negative thing.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
I will bring it back tomorrow. Or, I may even sport a new one tomorrow.Yes, EG, please bring back the other BC avatar. A smiling Cowher doesn't fit. TIA.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
As I said earlier, I have no problem with it as long as the inference is not that "but he can't win games with his arm." He is doing far more than just managing the game and not making mistakes. He's the one making all the big plays for this team on offense right now.
BlueOnion
Footballguy
You are really missing the topic here aren't you?Nobody is disputing Roethlisberger's effectiveness in hurting defenses this year in the playoffs, we are trying to measure Roethlisberger's overall effetiveness and whether his success is partial to the historic success of the Steelers running game or not.
But if you truly believe Roethlisberger is the Steelers biggest threat on offense, then I am sure you are anticipating the Seahawks to come up in a nickle or dime package in the Super Bowl.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Very Elway always had the capability of putting up big numbers, but didn't become a "winner" until he let other people shoulder part of the load. Ben is doing that at age 23 and unlike Elway actually carried his offense through the playoffs.
This could deserve it's own thread...
Last edited by a moderator:
BlueOnion
Footballguy
Here we start getting into a gray area, so let me try and define what you mean. When you say 'win a game with his arm', does that infers the Steelrs could line Roethlisberger up in the run-and-shoot offense, ignore the running game and let Roethlisberger pass the ball 40+ times a game to win? Is this what you are saying?
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I like a good game manager.Starr managed games to 5 titles.Montana was a hell of a game manager.Stauback, Rodger the Dodger, was a great game manager.Bob Griese managed the hell out of that Superbowl to cap the perfect season (How many passes did he throw in that game?)Aikman was a caretaker, a manager who leaned heavily on his running game and defense.Yep, I like a good manager.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
That wasn't my point, but I believe this could be done, depending on the opponent. Roethlisberger has played in some shootouts, he just doesn't have to do it very often (thank God) He's 2-2 career in games where he's thrown over 25 times, with an average of 299 passing yards in those games - 8 TDs/5 INTs. So, he can get it done throwing the football a lot, it's just not the best game plan for Pittsburgh.That's not even what I meant though. For a definition of winning the game with your arm, see yesterday. See the Cincinnati game too. He doesn't have to throw 40 times in order to be the key to the victory. If a QB is the single most important factor in a team's win, and he does so by making great throws, then I consider that winning a game with your arm. There's no qualifier of how many attempts you need in order to achieve this.
BlueOnion
Footballguy
Of course not. This is where I start to delineating (sp??) a difference between quarterbacks. There are some quarterbacks who could effectively lead teams with their arm in this offense and there are quarterbacks who could not. Currently, I have yet to see Roethlisberger play in a wide open passing offense where the pass is the #1 option. However, I am not inferring he could not do it either (with great success). I am just not going to credit him with the ability to do this until he does it. But this is why I was asking Evilgrin to help me define what he meant, we may have different definitions on quarterbacks who 'win a game with their arm', and consequently what is and is not a quarterback who manages games.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Ben is a good game manager; I disagree with the take that he relies totally on the running game and defense and just has to avoid mistakes to win. That's just silly, and often what is inferred when one makes this observation.Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
The kid's game impresses me. It seems to me (an impression only, I have not looked it up) that the kid make an inordinate amount of his throws on third down and in obvious passing situations. Hardly ideal circumstances to produce great stats. Nevertheless he seems to have a very respectible completion percentage, a very respectable yards per catch and per throw #, and a very good percentage for third downs coverted. This, plus being a leader is all I want or need from a Q.B. He is clutch. He moves the chains. He keeps possession allowing the running game to take it's toll and the defense to remain fresh.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Yep, that's another good point that's often overlooked. When you play QB for a run-first team, you spend a lot of time passing when defenses KNOW you want to pass. They've opened things up even more in the playoffs and allowed him to throw on 1st and 2nd down, and the results have been exactly what anyone who's watched him play would expect.
Defenses aren't able to stack the line and control the Steelers' offense anymore.
BlueOnion
Footballguy
That is where we are different. I saw yesterday's game as a great example of a quarterback winning the game by managing it well. Roethlisberger took what the defense was going to give them; in this case they were going to stop the run and give the offense some soft coverages; Roethlisberger took what was given to the Steelers and executed beautifully.However, if a defense's top priority is stopping the offense's passing attack, and the offense is still very effective in passing the ball...then the quarterback has beaten the defense with his arm.
Kit Fisto
Footballguy
This is when I think.... are we talking fantasy-wise or NFL? Here's where the lines get blurred big time.Ben is a very, very good NFL QB, but he's a mediocre, slightly better than average fantasy QB.Who would you rather have on your fantasy team... Manning, Culpepper, Brady, Vick or Roethlisberger? No question it's Manning.Who would you rather have leading your NFL team... Brady, Roethlisberger, Manning or Vick? No question it's Brady or Roethlisberger (so far this year).Like I said, this is where guys get homeriffic and see their QB through rose-colored glasses. Manning, Vick and Culpepper are fantasy studs yes, but I wouldn't want a single one of them under center with 1:30 seconds left to win a Super Bowl. I'll take the guy who quietly and effectively gets the job done.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
I guess I really am missing your point. You keep saying that you have not seen Ben involved in a game where the pass was the # 1 option. Would you not say that the Steelers # 1 option yesterday was passing the ball? Forget the 2nd half when they had already built a 21 pt lead and went into conservative mode. The first half of yesterday's game and the first half of the Colts game was about as wide open of an offense as they come? Denver was trying to attack the Steelers with the Blitz but he did a tremendous job of locating the open receiver.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
hey onion can you give me an example of a team (that passes the ball successfully) where the defense doesn't have to worry about stopping the running game?
