Ronnie Brown (1 Viewer)

[Billy Ball Thorton]

^ I would take Ryan Grant over Brown every day of the week.

Really? That decisively? Based upon what?I dont think it is reasonable to argue that Grant is more talented. He has had 1.5 seasons of relevance in the NFL. For the last half of 07 he was money. Brown was better though for the first half of 07 than Grant was for the second half. In 08 Brown was recovering from a torn ACL and playing for a team that was 1-15 the previous year, and he was still more fantasy-relevant than Grant.

To me, Grant is a very average RB. Granted, he is in a solid offense without much competition.

On the other hand, Ronnie is a very talented RB - maybe a top 5-10 talent. He is far more versatile than Grant. He does have more competion for carries than Grant does, but that is really the only leg up that I see Grant having over Brown. I guess it can be argued that the Green Bay offense will present more opportunity - and thats a solid point - but Pennington is a bit underrated in these parts. The Miami OL should be very good this season, and even if White steals some wildcat snaps, Ronnie will likely still be the RB in that formation most of the time. Ricky logged some good yardage playing that role.

Personally, there is no shot I would take Grant over Brown even one day a week - especially not on Sundays.

Focus on bolded portion for a second please...how the hell can you believe that? Grant rushed for 1200+ yards. After missign training camp and battling a hamstring injury. As a matter of fact, lets look here:Lets say that after week 4, Grant was back in shape. And I believe even then he was battling the hammy injury. He had 1 game under 50 yards rushing from that point on. Brown on the other hand had 6 games under 50 yards rushing. I know we like Brown's yfs totals, but after adding in receiving, he still has 4 games under 50 total.

Don't tell me I conveniently left out the game against NE with the Wildcat, I think we can all say it was a new formation, totally unprepared defense, and will not be repeated. Besides, it wasn't his highest yardage game, his highest was week 5 with 132 yfs. Grant's best was 151 yfs in week 11.

Yards per carry are similar. In fact, if you do eliminate the Patriots game as an outlier (which according to a Q1/Q3 analysis and IQR it is a statistical outlier) they have the same ypc.

On the issue of 2007:

Throwing out yet another statistical outlier for Brown, his week 4 against Oakland (8.9 ypc that game) he ends with a 4.5 ypc for that year. He does add a lot of yfs, and Cam Cameron is forcefeeding him the ball. We see production, but we see lots of other bakcs with the same per catch and per carry stats that didn't have that scheme. Btw, that scheme is now gone.

Grant's 2007 ypc, after throwing out a statistical outlier in week 17 (9.5 ypc that game) is 4.9. That to me says he was gaining more yards per carry than Brown. Huh. Good to look at actual numbers sometimes I suppose.

Adn again, even after all that, Grant doesn't lose carries to anybody. Grant doesn't have the ACL questions remaining. Which Brown does. Grant is not in a timeshare. Brown is. Grant has an offense that can effectively move the chains on 3rd down. Brown does not.

Could you tell me a reason I should like Brown? Grant should be even better this year after meshing a year with Rodgers and spending a summer involved in OTAs and TC. Maybe you should take a second to remove the glasses and look at the facts.

Grant is garbage. I put him just below Benson this year and I am not joking. I think sooner than later Jackson will take more and more carries from Grant. When healthy Jackson has more talent and was drafted as such.And why are you talking about 07 rather than 08?? Grant proved as did A-Train (when he won rookie of the year over LT) he was a one hit wonder.

Late in the 08 Grant was healthy Rodgers was tearing it up and Grant was still garbage. No excuses for him there.

Edit to add. Comparing Ronnie to Grant makes me laugh. Thats like comparing Fitz to Jennings

 

[ChuckLiddell]

^ I would take Ryan Grant over Brown every day of the week.

Really? That decisively? Based upon what?I dont think it is reasonable to argue that Grant is more talented. He has had 1.5 seasons of relevance in the NFL. For the last half of 07 he was money. Brown was better though for the first half of 07 than Grant was for the second half. In 08 Brown was recovering from a torn ACL and playing for a team that was 1-15 the previous year, and he was still more fantasy-relevant than Grant.

To me, Grant is a very average RB. Granted, he is in a solid offense without much competition.

On the other hand, Ronnie is a very talented RB - maybe a top 5-10 talent. He is far more versatile than Grant. He does have more competion for carries than Grant does, but that is really the only leg up that I see Grant having over Brown. I guess it can be argued that the Green Bay offense will present more opportunity - and thats a solid point - but Pennington is a bit underrated in these parts. The Miami OL should be very good this season, and even if White steals some wildcat snaps, Ronnie will likely still be the RB in that formation most of the time. Ricky logged some good yardage playing that role.

Personally, there is no shot I would take Grant over Brown even one day a week - especially not on Sundays.

Focus on bolded portion for a second please...how the hell can you believe that? Grant rushed for 1200+ yards. After missign training camp and battling a hamstring injury. As a matter of fact, lets look here:

Lets say that after week 4, Grant was back in shape. And I believe even then he was battling the hammy injury. He had 1 game under 50 yards rushing from that point on. Brown on the other hand had 6 games under 50 yards rushing. I know we like Brown's yfs totals, but after adding in receiving, he still has 4 games under 50 total.

Don't tell me I conveniently left out the game against NE with the Wildcat, I think we can all say it was a new formation, totally unprepared defense, and will not be repeated. Besides, it wasn't his highest yardage game, his highest was week 5 with 132 yfs. Grant's best was 151 yfs in week 11.

Yards per carry are similar. In fact, if you do eliminate the Patriots game as an outlier (which according to a Q1/Q3 analysis and IQR it is a statistical outlier) they have the same ypc.

On the issue of 2007:

Throwing out yet another statistical outlier for Brown, his week 4 against Oakland (8.9 ypc that game) he ends with a 4.5 ypc for that year. He does add a lot of yfs, and Cam Cameron is forcefeeding him the ball. We see production, but we see lots of other bakcs with the same per catch and per carry stats that didn't have that scheme. Btw, that scheme is now gone.

Grant's 2007 ypc, after throwing out a statistical outlier in week 17 (9.5 ypc that game) is 4.9. That to me says he was gaining more yards per carry than Brown. Huh. Good to look at actual numbers sometimes I suppose.

Adn again, even after all that, Grant doesn't lose carries to anybody. Grant doesn't have the ACL questions remaining. Which Brown does. Grant is not in a timeshare. Brown is. Grant has an offense that can effectively move the chains on 3rd down. Brown does not.

Could you tell me a reason I should like Brown? Grant should be even better this year after meshing a year with Rodgers and spending a summer involved in OTAs and TC. Maybe you should take a second to remove the glasses and look at the facts.

I admit there is some homerism in my analysis. However, I do not ever believe in throwing out games just because they were good. They all still count. I owned Grant during his magical second half in 2007. Watched every game he played. I never miss a Fins game, so I have seen Brown's entire body of work as well. To me, when you actually watch both backs play football, there is no contest between the 2 of them. Grant is an average straight ahead runner with little to no shiftiness, and average speed. He is a good running back, but there is absolutely nothing special about him. Brown (in 2007, at his peak) was explosive, playing behind one of the worst OLs I have ever seen, getting yards every way a running back possibly can despite having no holes, and getting hit in the backfield on almost every play. He looked special.

You give Grant a pass last year because he had a new QB.

Last year, Brown had a fairly good season despite most thinking that he would not even play until week 6. He came back early, and performed admirably in a new offense with a new QB, a new coaching staff, and a new ACL. If you want to throw out the New England game, go ahead, but it still counts - and he still did all that despite the fact that it was also his first time running the wildcat offense in a real game. If you want to give Grant a pass on last year because he had a new QB, then please afford Ronnie the same respect.

If I knew you, I would wager a hearty sum that Ronnie will be better than Grant this year, next year, and the year after that. I have seen both of them play enough to trust my eyes instead of trying to eliminate "statistical outliers" and crunch numbers. Talent usually prevails, and the difference in the talent level of these 2 guys is easy to see for me.

Focusing again on your bolded part - in my league Ronnie had 185 points and Grant had 157. Ronnie was handed a very light load most weeks due to his ACL recovery, and he still outscored Grant. This year, the ACL is healed (I know Grant is healthier too), the line is improved, Ricky is 32, and the staff has had another year to install it's offense. I am not saying it is cut and dry, but to say you would take Grant all day any day seems like an extraordinary amount of confidence given his body of work. I guess it says more for your disrespect of Ronnie that you can say that about a very average guy like Grant.

You are entitled to that. I hope you are wrong though - and I think you are.

 

[Instinctive]

^ I would take Ryan Grant over Brown every day of the week.

Really? That decisively? Based upon what?I dont think it is reasonable to argue that Grant is more talented. He has had 1.5 seasons of relevance in the NFL. For the last half of 07 he was money. Brown was better though for the first half of 07 than Grant was for the second half. In 08 Brown was recovering from a torn ACL and playing for a team that was 1-15 the previous year, and he was still more fantasy-relevant than Grant.

To me, Grant is a very average RB. Granted, he is in a solid offense without much competition.

On the other hand, Ronnie is a very talented RB - maybe a top 5-10 talent. He is far more versatile than Grant. He does have more competion for carries than Grant does, but that is really the only leg up that I see Grant having over Brown. I guess it can be argued that the Green Bay offense will present more opportunity - and thats a solid point - but Pennington is a bit underrated in these parts. The Miami OL should be very good this season, and even if White steals some wildcat snaps, Ronnie will likely still be the RB in that formation most of the time. Ricky logged some good yardage playing that role.

Personally, there is no shot I would take Grant over Brown even one day a week - especially not on Sundays.

Focus on bolded portion for a second please...how the hell can you believe that? Grant rushed for 1200+ yards. After missign training camp and battling a hamstring injury. As a matter of fact, lets look here:

Lets say that after week 4, Grant was back in shape. And I believe even then he was battling the hammy injury. He had 1 game under 50 yards rushing from that point on. Brown on the other hand had 6 games under 50 yards rushing. I know we like Brown's yfs totals, but after adding in receiving, he still has 4 games under 50 total.

Don't tell me I conveniently left out the game against NE with the Wildcat, I think we can all say it was a new formation, totally unprepared defense, and will not be repeated. Besides, it wasn't his highest yardage game, his highest was week 5 with 132 yfs. Grant's best was 151 yfs in week 11.

Yards per carry are similar. In fact, if you do eliminate the Patriots game as an outlier (which according to a Q1/Q3 analysis and IQR it is a statistical outlier) they have the same ypc.

On the issue of 2007:

Throwing out yet another statistical outlier for Brown, his week 4 against Oakland (8.9 ypc that game) he ends with a 4.5 ypc for that year. He does add a lot of yfs, and Cam Cameron is forcefeeding him the ball. We see production, but we see lots of other bakcs with the same per catch and per carry stats that didn't have that scheme. Btw, that scheme is now gone.

Grant's 2007 ypc, after throwing out a statistical outlier in week 17 (9.5 ypc that game) is 4.9. That to me says he was gaining more yards per carry than Brown. Huh. Good to look at actual numbers sometimes I suppose.

Adn again, even after all that, Grant doesn't lose carries to anybody. Grant doesn't have the ACL questions remaining. Which Brown does. Grant is not in a timeshare. Brown is. Grant has an offense that can effectively move the chains on 3rd down. Brown does not.

Could you tell me a reason I should like Brown? Grant should be even better this year after meshing a year with Rodgers and spending a summer involved in OTAs and TC. Maybe you should take a second to remove the glasses and look at the facts.

I admit there is some homerism in my analysis. However, I do not ever believe in throwing out games just because they were good. They all still count. I owned Grant during his magical second half in 2007. Watched every game he played. I never miss a Fins game, so I have seen Brown's entire body of work as well. To me, when you actually watch both backs play football, there is no contest between the 2 of them. Grant is an average straight ahead runner with little to no shiftiness, and average speed. He is a good running back, but there is absolutely nothing special about him. Brown (in 2007, at his peak) was explosive, playing behind one of the worst OLs I have ever seen, getting yards every way a running back possibly can despite having no holes, and getting hit in the backfield on almost every play. He looked special.

You give Grant a pass last year because he had a new QB.

Last year, Brown had a fairly good season despite most thinking that he would not even play until week 6. He came back early, and performed admirably in a new offense with a new QB, a new coaching staff, and a new ACL. If you want to throw out the New England game, go ahead, but it still counts - and he still did all that despite the fact that it was also his first time running the wildcat offense in a real game. If you want to give Grant a pass on last year because he had a new QB, then please afford Ronnie the same respect.

If I knew you, I would wager a hearty sum that Ronnie will be better than Grant this year, next year, and the year after that. I have seen both of them play enough to trust my eyes instead of trying to eliminate "statistical outliers" and crunch numbers. Talent usually prevails, and the difference in the talent level of these 2 guys is easy to see for me.

Focusing again on your bolded part - in my league Ronnie had 185 points and Grant had 157. Ronnie was handed a very light load most weeks due to his ACL recovery, and he still outscored Grant. This year, the ACL is healed (I know Grant is healthier too), the line is improved, Ricky is 32, and the staff has had another year to install it's offense. I am not saying it is cut and dry, but to say you would take Grant all day any day seems like an extraordinary amount of confidence given his body of work. I guess it says more for your disrespect of Ronnie that you can say that about a very average guy like Grant.

You are entitled to that. I hope you are wrong though - and I think you are.

I thought I addressed 08 as well, and I only addressed 07 because you brought it up.I suppose all that I can say is I hope you're still gonna be here next season, and if you found me trustworthy, I would do a modest $20 bet on higher fantasy output with the disclosure that significant injury renders it void.

Look, Grant rushed for 1203 yards. Brown didn't crack 1000. Here is the closest comparison I can give to Grant right now: Thomas Jones...1191 in 07 and 1TD. Lats year 1312 and 13 TDs.

TD are simply volatile, and I would try to remember some of those pesky little "facts" before making such blanket statements. Also, go look at the crank scores (consistency) for each RB. I will repeat what I said about last season, if we toss out where one could say each RB was injured, Brown had twice as many games under 50 total yards from scrimmage than Grant had rushing under 50 yards.

Lets not toss out any injury time. Grant had 3 game sunder 50 yards rushing all of last year. Ronnie had 8 games under 50 yards rushing last year. Even after adding in receiving yards Ronnie still has 5 games in which he does not reach 50 total yards. Grant's total yards from scrimmage games under 50 remains at 3.

Tell me one reason besides "I think he looked better" (if you read between the lines that translates to "he played for my team") that anybody should pick Ronnie first.

I do not give Grant a pass. I said even with that, which shows even more reason to pick him this year.

 

[iSnitch]

Grant is garbage. I put him just below Benson this year and I am not joking. I think sooner than later Jackson will take more and more carries from Grant. When healthy Jackson has more talent and was drafted as such.And why are you talking about 07 rather than 08?? Grant proved as did A-Train (when he won rookie of the year over LT) he was a one hit wonder.Late in the 08 Grant was healthy Rodgers was tearing it up and Grant was still garbage. No excuses for him there.Edit to add. Comparing Ronnie to Grant makes me laugh. Thats like comparing Fitz to Jennings

This is an awful posting. Just awful.Jackson is lousy. The stats back that up. If you would like, I'll pull some of the other threads that go over this. Grant may not be world class but he's the only solid option. Which is probably the reason you like Benson - he's the only realistic option.Fitzgerald and Jennings are both absolute studs. Seriously, using your comparison does not add up - Jennings is a great young wr.They way you railed against Grant you're making it seem like it'd be like comparing Randy Moss to Sinorce Moss.

 

[Grahamburn]

I think situation plays a much greater role than talent in predicting production.

Really?Calvin Johnson...

 

[Grahamburn]

Ronnie had only 247 touches (214 carries and 33 receptions) to go with 10 total TDs in 2008. I would expect those touches to increase significantly in 2009 because of his health, talent, and overall team situation.

Looking at the numbers there is a lot of room for upside in his statistics. He's a career 4.4 yards per carry back playing behind an awful offensive line for those seasons. The 2009 offensive line is vastly improved compared to the lines Ronnie has played behind in his first four years.

At an ADP of 3.4 he is an absolute steal as a RB2.

Ronnie Brown is ready to break out in a big way. Take him in the third round while you still can.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

^ I would take Ryan Grant over Brown every day of the week.

Really? That decisively? Based upon what?I dont think it is reasonable to argue that Grant is more talented. He has had 1.5 seasons of relevance in the NFL. For the last half of 07 he was money. Brown was better though for the first half of 07 than Grant was for the second half. In 08 Brown was recovering from a torn ACL and playing for a team that was 1-15 the previous year, and he was still more fantasy-relevant than Grant.

To me, Grant is a very average RB. Granted, he is in a solid offense without much competition.

On the other hand, Ronnie is a very talented RB - maybe a top 5-10 talent. He is far more versatile than Grant. He does have more competion for carries than Grant does, but that is really the only leg up that I see Grant having over Brown. I guess it can be argued that the Green Bay offense will present more opportunity - and thats a solid point - but Pennington is a bit underrated in these parts. The Miami OL should be very good this season, and even if White steals some wildcat snaps, Ronnie will likely still be the RB in that formation most of the time. Ricky logged some good yardage playing that role.

Personally, there is no shot I would take Grant over Brown even one day a week - especially not on Sundays.

Focus on bolded portion for a second please...how the hell can you believe that? Grant rushed for 1200+ yards. After missign training camp and battling a hamstring injury. As a matter of fact, lets look here:

Lets say that after week 4, Grant was back in shape. And I believe even then he was battling the hammy injury. He had 1 game under 50 yards rushing from that point on. Brown on the other hand had 6 games under 50 yards rushing. I know we like Brown's yfs totals, but after adding in receiving, he still has 4 games under 50 total.

Don't tell me I conveniently left out the game against NE with the Wildcat, I think we can all say it was a new formation, totally unprepared defense, and will not be repeated. Besides, it wasn't his highest yardage game, his highest was week 5 with 132 yfs. Grant's best was 151 yfs in week 11.

Yards per carry are similar. In fact, if you do eliminate the Patriots game as an outlier (which according to a Q1/Q3 analysis and IQR it is a statistical outlier) they have the same ypc.

On the issue of 2007:

Throwing out yet another statistical outlier for Brown, his week 4 against Oakland (8.9 ypc that game) he ends with a 4.5 ypc for that year. He does add a lot of yfs, and Cam Cameron is forcefeeding him the ball. We see production, but we see lots of other bakcs with the same per catch and per carry stats that didn't have that scheme. Btw, that scheme is now gone.

Grant's 2007 ypc, after throwing out a statistical outlier in week 17 (9.5 ypc that game) is 4.9. That to me says he was gaining more yards per carry than Brown. Huh. Good to look at actual numbers sometimes I suppose.

Adn again, even after all that, Grant doesn't lose carries to anybody. Grant doesn't have the ACL questions remaining. Which Brown does. Grant is not in a timeshare. Brown is. Grant has an offense that can effectively move the chains on 3rd down. Brown does not.

Could you tell me a reason I should like Brown? Grant should be even better this year after meshing a year with Rodgers and spending a summer involved in OTAs and TC. Maybe you should take a second to remove the glasses and look at the facts.

I admit there is some homerism in my analysis. However, I do not ever believe in throwing out games just because they were good. They all still count. I owned Grant during his magical second half in 2007. Watched every game he played. I never miss a Fins game, so I have seen Brown's entire body of work as well. To me, when you actually watch both backs play football, there is no contest between the 2 of them. Grant is an average straight ahead runner with little to no shiftiness, and average speed. He is a good running back, but there is absolutely nothing special about him. Brown (in 2007, at his peak) was explosive, playing behind one of the worst OLs I have ever seen, getting yards every way a running back possibly can despite having no holes, and getting hit in the backfield on almost every play. He looked special.

You give Grant a pass last year because he had a new QB.

Last year, Brown had a fairly good season despite most thinking that he would not even play until week 6. He came back early, and performed admirably in a new offense with a new QB, a new coaching staff, and a new ACL. If you want to throw out the New England game, go ahead, but it still counts - and he still did all that despite the fact that it was also his first time running the wildcat offense in a real game. If you want to give Grant a pass on last year because he had a new QB, then please afford Ronnie the same respect.

If I knew you, I would wager a hearty sum that Ronnie will be better than Grant this year, next year, and the year after that. I have seen both of them play enough to trust my eyes instead of trying to eliminate "statistical outliers" and crunch numbers. Talent usually prevails, and the difference in the talent level of these 2 guys is easy to see for me.

Focusing again on your bolded part - in my league Ronnie had 185 points and Grant had 157. Ronnie was handed a very light load most weeks due to his ACL recovery, and he still outscored Grant. This year, the ACL is healed (I know Grant is healthier too), the line is improved, Ricky is 32, and the staff has had another year to install it's offense. I am not saying it is cut and dry, but to say you would take Grant all day any day seems like an extraordinary amount of confidence given his body of work. I guess it says more for your disrespect of Ronnie that you can say that about a very average guy like Grant.

You are entitled to that. I hope you are wrong though - and I think you are.

I thought I addressed 08 as well, and I only addressed 07 because you brought it up.I suppose all that I can say is I hope you're still gonna be here next season, and if you found me trustworthy, I would do a modest $20 bet on higher fantasy output with the disclosure that significant injury renders it void.

Look, Grant rushed for 1203 yards. Brown didn't crack 1000. Here is the closest comparison I can give to Grant right now: Thomas Jones...1191 in 07 and 1TD. Lats year 1312 and 13 TDs.

TD are simply volatile, and I would try to remember some of those pesky little "facts" before making such blanket statements. Also, go look at the crank scores (consistency) for each RB. I will repeat what I said about last season, if we toss out where one could say each RB was injured, Brown had twice as many games under 50 total yards from scrimmage than Grant had rushing under 50 yards.

Lets not toss out any injury time. Grant had 3 game sunder 50 yards rushing all of last year. Ronnie had 8 games under 50 yards rushing last year. Even after adding in receiving yards Ronnie still has 5 games in which he does not reach 50 total yards. Grant's total yards from scrimmage games under 50 remains at 3.

Tell me one reason besides "I think he looked better" (if you read between the lines that translates to "he played for my team") that anybody should pick Ronnie first.

I do not give Grant a pass. I said even with that, which shows even more reason to pick him this year.

There is more than one reason.Here is a reason to not use silly stats:

Using last year's sub-50 yard games and NOT factoring in that it was his first year after a major knee injury is irresponsible. The staff had to coddle him last year, as would be the case with any running back coming off of a major knee injury.

Some reasons to like Ronnie better than Grant:

1. He is simply a more talented and versatile player. Homerism aside, I dont think you will find many non-partial respectable fantasy minds that would disagree with that. One player went undrafted (right?), and the other was the 2nd player selected in a draft. Thats not the end all be all, but it does show what pro scouts thought of their talent levels coming out of school. I know this is a debatable point, but it is still a point.

2. He had an amazing year last year when you consider the fact that he had a rookie at LT, a brand new (to the team) QB, was coming off a major injury, split carries, had a new coaching staff, and had a center that could not run-block. This year, his knee is 100%, he has an all-pro 2nd year LT, he has a mauler at center replacing a small center that played with a torn rotator cuff all year, his coaching staff has had a year to integrate their system, his QB has had a year to get comfortable in the offense, and his top competition at RB is 32 and has looked slow and sluggish per reports this off-season.

3. There were a lot of good reasons in number 2, so I am calling it 3, which is generous.

4. What has Grant done to warrant him being someone you would want "all day long" over Ronnie Brown? His 7 solid games in 2007, or his 2 TDs (right?) last season? You can say you would draft him before you would draft Brown, but to make it sound so decisive is silly IMO. My guess is that you own Grant, which kind of equalizes out the "homerism" argument. If you dont own him, my apologies, and you can nullify that sub-point.

5. I am a Dolphins fan, yes - but the fact that I feel that when I watch Ronnie play football I see a superior athlete and football player than what I see when I watch Grant play is not the result of my homerism. I dont feel thet Ted Ginn is someone I would argue for over a moderate player like Devin Hester or Chris Chambers. I would not draft Chad Pennington over Ben, Eli, Hasselbeck, or another middling fantasy QB just because he is a Dolphin. I am not taking Devonne Bess over Donnie Avery or Eddie Royal. I see a much better player when I watch Ronnie play football. You can toss out all the stats you want, but this season seems like it has all the pieces falling into place for him to finally realize his potential. His ceiling is eons higher than Grant's ceiling is because of one thing - pure talent. I see it when I watch him play. If you dont, thats cool, but dont call it homerism. If Miami traded Ronnie for Grant tomorrow, I would still draft Ronnie a round or 2 before I would draft Grant. He is simply a better player when they are both healthy. I know that point 5 is redundant to point 1 - but considering that I am coming off a few beers you should cut me some slack. I am much better the day after a few beers. Do you see the parallel?

Look - we could go back and forth all day long for weeks about this. The fact is that it is purely a matter of opinion and that is what makes this game fun. I just found it a bit over the top that you felt that there was such a huge disparity between the 2 players. I dont think there is a huge disparity at all. I think they are both solid RB2s - but I see Brown as a far better candidate to be a RB1 this season. You obviously disagree, and thats all good.

 

[Sweet Love]

From Rotoworld:

ESPN's K.C. Joyner noted that Dolphins C Jake Grove had a 90.6 win percentage at the point of attack on running plays last season.

The stat measures whether the opposing defender stuffs the hole or makes contact with the runner. Grove's rate, a significant improvement over Samson Satele's 79.5 percent, should help open holes for Ronnie Brown this season

I have seen throughout the thread the talk of the improved offensive line (especially at center), and I am not going to say that Satele is better or even as good as Grove. Satele went against Seymour/Wilfork, Jenkins and Stroud last year six times. Grove went against much inferior competition in his division. Again, not saying Grove is not an upgrade, but I think that 90% win percentage for Grove will go down and Satele's will go up. Also, I don't think the problem with Brown is ability or health, but opportunity. He may get the opportunity he deserves, but the year after Edge had his ACL repaired he got 340 touches, Jamal Lewis got 300 touches and Brown got 247. For whatever reason, he just does not get the same opportunities as other elite backs in the league. while it may not be prudent to sleep on him, it also is going out on a limb thinking "this is going to be the year".

 

[ChuckLiddell]

From Rotoworld:

ESPN's K.C. Joyner noted that Dolphins C Jake Grove had a 90.6 win percentage at the point of attack on running plays last season.

The stat measures whether the opposing defender stuffs the hole or makes contact with the runner. Grove's rate, a significant improvement over Samson Satele's 79.5 percent, should help open holes for Ronnie Brown this season

I have seen throughout the thread the talk of the improved offensive line (especially at center), and I am not going to say that Satele is better or even as good as Grove. Satele went against Seymour/Wilfork, Jenkins and Stroud last year six times. Grove went against much inferior competition in his division. Again, not saying Grove is not an upgrade, but I think that 90% win percentage for Grove will go down and Satele's will go up. Also, I don't think the problem with Brown is ability or health, but opportunity. He may get the opportunity he deserves, but the year after Edge had his ACL repaired he got 340 touches, Jamal Lewis got 300 touches and Brown got 247. For whatever reason, he just does not get the same opportunities as other elite backs in the league. while it may not be prudent to sleep on him, it also is going out on a limb thinking "this is going to be the year".

See your point...but I am going to go ahead out on a limb and trust Bill Parcells' judgement that Grove was a significant upgrade over Satele in addition to the overwhelming numbers that suggest a huge disparity between the 2 players. The ol' Tuna has earned the benefit of the doubt on personnel decisions. He hits on a lot more than he misses, and since I dont personally do film study on centers, I will go ahead and put my faith in the fact that he did not just toss out $30 mil to stay status quo at the position.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

^ I would take Ryan Grant over Brown every day of the week.

Really? That decisively? Based upon what?I dont think it is reasonable to argue that Grant is more talented. He has had 1.5 seasons of relevance in the NFL. For the last half of 07 he was money. Brown was better though for the first half of 07 than Grant was for the second half. In 08 Brown was recovering from a torn ACL and playing for a team that was 1-15 the previous year, and he was still more fantasy-relevant than Grant.

To me, Grant is a very average RB. Granted, he is in a solid offense without much competition.

On the other hand, Ronnie is a very talented RB - maybe a top 5-10 talent. He is far more versatile than Grant. He does have more competion for carries than Grant does, but that is really the only leg up that I see Grant having over Brown. I guess it can be argued that the Green Bay offense will present more opportunity - and thats a solid point - but Pennington is a bit underrated in these parts. The Miami OL should be very good this season, and even if White steals some wildcat snaps, Ronnie will likely still be the RB in that formation most of the time. Ricky logged some good yardage playing that role.

Personally, there is no shot I would take Grant over Brown even one day a week - especially not on Sundays.

Focus on bolded portion for a second please...how the hell can you believe that? Grant rushed for 1200+ yards. After missign training camp and battling a hamstring injury. As a matter of fact, lets look here:

Lets say that after week 4, Grant was back in shape. And I believe even then he was battling the hammy injury. He had 1 game under 50 yards rushing from that point on. Brown on the other hand had 6 games under 50 yards rushing. I know we like Brown's yfs totals, but after adding in receiving, he still has 4 games under 50 total.

Don't tell me I conveniently left out the game against NE with the Wildcat, I think we can all say it was a new formation, totally unprepared defense, and will not be repeated. Besides, it wasn't his highest yardage game, his highest was week 5 with 132 yfs. Grant's best was 151 yfs in week 11.

Yards per carry are similar. In fact, if you do eliminate the Patriots game as an outlier (which according to a Q1/Q3 analysis and IQR it is a statistical outlier) they have the same ypc.

On the issue of 2007:

Throwing out yet another statistical outlier for Brown, his week 4 against Oakland (8.9 ypc that game) he ends with a 4.5 ypc for that year. He does add a lot of yfs, and Cam Cameron is forcefeeding him the ball. We see production, but we see lots of other bakcs with the same per catch and per carry stats that didn't have that scheme. Btw, that scheme is now gone.

Grant's 2007 ypc, after throwing out a statistical outlier in week 17 (9.5 ypc that game) is 4.9. That to me says he was gaining more yards per carry than Brown. Huh. Good to look at actual numbers sometimes I suppose.

Adn again, even after all that, Grant doesn't lose carries to anybody. Grant doesn't have the ACL questions remaining. Which Brown does. Grant is not in a timeshare. Brown is. Grant has an offense that can effectively move the chains on 3rd down. Brown does not.

Could you tell me a reason I should like Brown? Grant should be even better this year after meshing a year with Rodgers and spending a summer involved in OTAs and TC. Maybe you should take a second to remove the glasses and look at the facts.

I admit there is some homerism in my analysis. However, I do not ever believe in throwing out games just because they were good. They all still count. I owned Grant during his magical second half in 2007. Watched every game he played. I never miss a Fins game, so I have seen Brown's entire body of work as well. To me, when you actually watch both backs play football, there is no contest between the 2 of them. Grant is an average straight ahead runner with little to no shiftiness, and average speed. He is a good running back, but there is absolutely nothing special about him. Brown (in 2007, at his peak) was explosive, playing behind one of the worst OLs I have ever seen, getting yards every way a running back possibly can despite having no holes, and getting hit in the backfield on almost every play. He looked special.

You give Grant a pass last year because he had a new QB.

Last year, Brown had a fairly good season despite most thinking that he would not even play until week 6. He came back early, and performed admirably in a new offense with a new QB, a new coaching staff, and a new ACL. If you want to throw out the New England game, go ahead, but it still counts - and he still did all that despite the fact that it was also his first time running the wildcat offense in a real game. If you want to give Grant a pass on last year because he had a new QB, then please afford Ronnie the same respect.

If I knew you, I would wager a hearty sum that Ronnie will be better than Grant this year, next year, and the year after that. I have seen both of them play enough to trust my eyes instead of trying to eliminate "statistical outliers" and crunch numbers. Talent usually prevails, and the difference in the talent level of these 2 guys is easy to see for me.

Focusing again on your bolded part - in my league Ronnie had 185 points and Grant had 157. Ronnie was handed a very light load most weeks due to his ACL recovery, and he still outscored Grant. This year, the ACL is healed (I know Grant is healthier too), the line is improved, Ricky is 32, and the staff has had another year to install it's offense. I am not saying it is cut and dry, but to say you would take Grant all day any day seems like an extraordinary amount of confidence given his body of work. I guess it says more for your disrespect of Ronnie that you can say that about a very average guy like Grant.

You are entitled to that. I hope you are wrong though - and I think you are.

I thought I addressed 08 as well, and I only addressed 07 because you brought it up.I suppose all that I can say is I hope you're still gonna be here next season, and if you found me trustworthy, I would do a modest $20 bet on higher fantasy output with the disclosure that significant injury renders it void.

Look, Grant rushed for 1203 yards. Brown didn't crack 1000. Here is the closest comparison I can give to Grant right now: Thomas Jones...1191 in 07 and 1TD. Lats year 1312 and 13 TDs.

TD are simply volatile, and I would try to remember some of those pesky little "facts" before making such blanket statements. Also, go look at the crank scores (consistency) for each RB. I will repeat what I said about last season, if we toss out where one could say each RB was injured, Brown had twice as many games under 50 total yards from scrimmage than Grant had rushing under 50 yards.

Lets not toss out any injury time. Grant had 3 game sunder 50 yards rushing all of last year. Ronnie had 8 games under 50 yards rushing last year. Even after adding in receiving yards Ronnie still has 5 games in which he does not reach 50 total yards. Grant's total yards from scrimmage games under 50 remains at 3.

Tell me one reason besides "I think he looked better" (if you read between the lines that translates to "he played for my team") that anybody should pick Ronnie first.

I do not give Grant a pass. I said even with that, which shows even more reason to pick him this year.

One more point. You will like this one, because it involves stats. In fact, it involves the most important of all stats for this discussion - fantasy football stats.In my league, over the past 2 seasons Grant has 322 points, and Ronnie has 316. That does not seem like a compelling point in favor of Ronnie until you consider the fact that over the course of that timeframe, Ronnie blew out his knee. So, he blew out his knee, missed 9 games in 2007, played much of that time with a horrendously bad OL - the rest of it on a rehabbing knee while sharing carries, and still scored just 6 less points than Grant - and you feel Grant is head and shoulders a better fantasy play than Brown in 2009?

You have to at least admit that it is debatable, right?

 

[Instinctive]

Focus on bolded portion for a second please...how the hell can you believe that? Grant rushed for 1200+ yards. After missign training camp and battling a hamstring injury. As a matter of fact, lets look here:

Lets say that after week 4, Grant was back in shape. And I believe even then he was battling the hammy injury. He had 1 game under 50 yards rushing from that point on. Brown on the other hand had 6 games under 50 yards rushing. I know we like Brown's yfs totals, but after adding in receiving, he still has 4 games under 50 total.

Don't tell me I conveniently left out the game against NE with the Wildcat, I think we can all say it was a new formation, totally unprepared defense, and will not be repeated. Besides, it wasn't his highest yardage game, his highest was week 5 with 132 yfs. Grant's best was 151 yfs in week 11.

Yards per carry are similar. In fact, if you do eliminate the Patriots game as an outlier (which according to a Q1/Q3 analysis and IQR it is a statistical outlier) they have the same ypc.

On the issue of 2007:

Throwing out yet another statistical outlier for Brown, his week 4 against Oakland (8.9 ypc that game) he ends with a 4.5 ypc for that year. He does add a lot of yfs, and Cam Cameron is forcefeeding him the ball. We see production, but we see lots of other bakcs with the same per catch and per carry stats that didn't have that scheme. Btw, that scheme is now gone.

Grant's 2007 ypc, after throwing out a statistical outlier in week 17 (9.5 ypc that game) is 4.9. That to me says he was gaining more yards per carry than Brown. Huh. Good to look at actual numbers sometimes I suppose.

Adn again, even after all that, Grant doesn't lose carries to anybody. Grant doesn't have the ACL questions remaining. Which Brown does. Grant is not in a timeshare. Brown is. Grant has an offense that can effectively move the chains on 3rd down. Brown does not.

Could you tell me a reason I should like Brown? Grant should be even better this year after meshing a year with Rodgers and spending a summer involved in OTAs and TC. Maybe you should take a second to remove the glasses and look at the facts.

I admit there is some homerism in my analysis. However, I do not ever believe in throwing out games just because they were good. They all still count. I owned Grant during his magical second half in 2007. Watched every game he played. I never miss a Fins game, so I have seen Brown's entire body of work as well. To me, when you actually watch both backs play football, there is no contest between the 2 of them. Grant is an average straight ahead runner with little to no shiftiness, and average speed. He is a good running back, but there is absolutely nothing special about him. Brown (in 2007, at his peak) was explosive, playing behind one of the worst OLs I have ever seen, getting yards every way a running back possibly can despite having no holes, and getting hit in the backfield on almost every play. He looked special.

You give Grant a pass last year because he had a new QB.

Last year, Brown had a fairly good season despite most thinking that he would not even play until week 6. He came back early, and performed admirably in a new offense with a new QB, a new coaching staff, and a new ACL. If you want to throw out the New England game, go ahead, but it still counts - and he still did all that despite the fact that it was also his first time running the wildcat offense in a real game. If you want to give Grant a pass on last year because he had a new QB, then please afford Ronnie the same respect.

If I knew you, I would wager a hearty sum that Ronnie will be better than Grant this year, next year, and the year after that. I have seen both of them play enough to trust my eyes instead of trying to eliminate "statistical outliers" and crunch numbers. Talent usually prevails, and the difference in the talent level of these 2 guys is easy to see for me.

Focusing again on your bolded part - in my league Ronnie had 185 points and Grant had 157. Ronnie was handed a very light load most weeks due to his ACL recovery, and he still outscored Grant. This year, the ACL is healed (I know Grant is healthier too), the line is improved, Ricky is 32, and the staff has had another year to install it's offense. I am not saying it is cut and dry, but to say you would take Grant all day any day seems like an extraordinary amount of confidence given his body of work. I guess it says more for your disrespect of Ronnie that you can say that about a very average guy like Grant.

You are entitled to that. I hope you are wrong though - and I think you are.

I thought I addressed 08 as well, and I only addressed 07 because you brought it up.I suppose all that I can say is I hope you're still gonna be here next season, and if you found me trustworthy, I would do a modest $20 bet on higher fantasy output with the disclosure that significant injury renders it void.

Look, Grant rushed for 1203 yards. Brown didn't crack 1000. Here is the closest comparison I can give to Grant right now: Thomas Jones...1191 in 07 and 1TD. Lats year 1312 and 13 TDs.

TD are simply volatile, and I would try to remember some of those pesky little "facts" before making such blanket statements. Also, go look at the crank scores (consistency) for each RB. I will repeat what I said about last season, if we toss out where one could say each RB was injured, Brown had twice as many games under 50 total yards from scrimmage than Grant had rushing under 50 yards.

Lets not toss out any injury time. Grant had 3 game sunder 50 yards rushing all of last year. Ronnie had 8 games under 50 yards rushing last year. Even after adding in receiving yards Ronnie still has 5 games in which he does not reach 50 total yards. Grant's total yards from scrimmage games under 50 remains at 3.

Tell me one reason besides "I think he looked better" (if you read between the lines that translates to "he played for my team") that anybody should pick Ronnie first.

I do not give Grant a pass. I said even with that, which shows even more reason to pick him this year.

One more point. You will like this one, because it involves stats. In fact, it involves the most important of all stats for this discussion - fantasy football stats.In my league, over the past 2 seasons Grant has 322 points, and Ronnie has 316. That does not seem like a compelling point in favor of Ronnie until you consider the fact that over the course of that timeframe, Ronnie blew out his knee. So, he blew out his knee, missed 9 games in 2007, played much of that time with a horrendously bad OL - the rest of it on a rehabbing knee while sharing carries, and still scored just 6 less points than Grant - and you feel Grant is head and shoulders a better fantasy play than Brown in 2009?

You have to at least admit that it is debatable, right?

Grant was out for just as many games, basically, as he wasn't the starter, 3rd down back, or backup on his team. It is debatable, and I would be happy to place a friendly Andrew Jackson on performance this year. We coudl discuss that over PM if you're interested I do not own Grant anywhere. I do not own Brown either. Most of my leagues find me to be the owner of CJ4.24, KSmith, Slaton, DWill. As they were inaugurals and I kept the guys I got late or they're dynasties.

I think situation has to come into play as well. Grant doesn't share. Grant has a better offense. Grant's team performs better on 3rd downs to keep drives alive. Grant has a much much MUCH better QB. Grant gets Detroit twice. Grant's production last year, IMO, was at a near equal disadvantage to Ronnie's. Ronnie was months removed from his injury (9 i believe? check that if you wish) and went to camp. Grant missed camp and had a nagging injury while he played. In my view, those cancel out.

TDs are also volatile. They inflated Ronnie's stats last year, and deflated Grant's. Again, look at the similarities to Thomas Jones last season. I have no problem at all projecting Grant to score 8 TDs this year with the potential for more. That would be 36 more points right there.

Again, I suppose they are close. But we really haven't seen either one have the chance to go a full season where everything was great and they could perform to their talent level. I'm just looking at it, and seeing way too many question marks for Brown, and zero question marks for Grant, while Grant is also more consistent production if you say the questions don't matter. So yes, I would take him head and shoulders above Ronnie.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Focus on bolded portion for a second please...how the hell can you believe that? Grant rushed for 1200+ yards. After missign training camp and battling a hamstring injury. As a matter of fact, lets look here:

Lets say that after week 4, Grant was back in shape. And I believe even then he was battling the hammy injury. He had 1 game under 50 yards rushing from that point on. Brown on the other hand had 6 games under 50 yards rushing. I know we like Brown's yfs totals, but after adding in receiving, he still has 4 games under 50 total.

Don't tell me I conveniently left out the game against NE with the Wildcat, I think we can all say it was a new formation, totally unprepared defense, and will not be repeated. Besides, it wasn't his highest yardage game, his highest was week 5 with 132 yfs. Grant's best was 151 yfs in week 11.

Yards per carry are similar. In fact, if you do eliminate the Patriots game as an outlier (which according to a Q1/Q3 analysis and IQR it is a statistical outlier) they have the same ypc.

On the issue of 2007:

Throwing out yet another statistical outlier for Brown, his week 4 against Oakland (8.9 ypc that game) he ends with a 4.5 ypc for that year. He does add a lot of yfs, and Cam Cameron is forcefeeding him the ball. We see production, but we see lots of other bakcs with the same per catch and per carry stats that didn't have that scheme. Btw, that scheme is now gone.

Grant's 2007 ypc, after throwing out a statistical outlier in week 17 (9.5 ypc that game) is 4.9. That to me says he was gaining more yards per carry than Brown. Huh. Good to look at actual numbers sometimes I suppose.

Adn again, even after all that, Grant doesn't lose carries to anybody. Grant doesn't have the ACL questions remaining. Which Brown does. Grant is not in a timeshare. Brown is. Grant has an offense that can effectively move the chains on 3rd down. Brown does not.

Could you tell me a reason I should like Brown? Grant should be even better this year after meshing a year with Rodgers and spending a summer involved in OTAs and TC. Maybe you should take a second to remove the glasses and look at the facts.

I admit there is some homerism in my analysis. However, I do not ever believe in throwing out games just because they were good. They all still count. I owned Grant during his magical second half in 2007. Watched every game he played. I never miss a Fins game, so I have seen Brown's entire body of work as well. To me, when you actually watch both backs play football, there is no contest between the 2 of them. Grant is an average straight ahead runner with little to no shiftiness, and average speed. He is a good running back, but there is absolutely nothing special about him. Brown (in 2007, at his peak) was explosive, playing behind one of the worst OLs I have ever seen, getting yards every way a running back possibly can despite having no holes, and getting hit in the backfield on almost every play. He looked special.

You give Grant a pass last year because he had a new QB.

Last year, Brown had a fairly good season despite most thinking that he would not even play until week 6. He came back early, and performed admirably in a new offense with a new QB, a new coaching staff, and a new ACL. If you want to throw out the New England game, go ahead, but it still counts - and he still did all that despite the fact that it was also his first time running the wildcat offense in a real game. If you want to give Grant a pass on last year because he had a new QB, then please afford Ronnie the same respect.

If I knew you, I would wager a hearty sum that Ronnie will be better than Grant this year, next year, and the year after that. I have seen both of them play enough to trust my eyes instead of trying to eliminate "statistical outliers" and crunch numbers. Talent usually prevails, and the difference in the talent level of these 2 guys is easy to see for me.

Focusing again on your bolded part - in my league Ronnie had 185 points and Grant had 157. Ronnie was handed a very light load most weeks due to his ACL recovery, and he still outscored Grant. This year, the ACL is healed (I know Grant is healthier too), the line is improved, Ricky is 32, and the staff has had another year to install it's offense. I am not saying it is cut and dry, but to say you would take Grant all day any day seems like an extraordinary amount of confidence given his body of work. I guess it says more for your disrespect of Ronnie that you can say that about a very average guy like Grant.

You are entitled to that. I hope you are wrong though - and I think you are.

I thought I addressed 08 as well, and I only addressed 07 because you brought it up.I suppose all that I can say is I hope you're still gonna be here next season, and if you found me trustworthy, I would do a modest $20 bet on higher fantasy output with the disclosure that significant injury renders it void.

Look, Grant rushed for 1203 yards. Brown didn't crack 1000. Here is the closest comparison I can give to Grant right now: Thomas Jones...1191 in 07 and 1TD. Lats year 1312 and 13 TDs.

TD are simply volatile, and I would try to remember some of those pesky little "facts" before making such blanket statements. Also, go look at the crank scores (consistency) for each RB. I will repeat what I said about last season, if we toss out where one could say each RB was injured, Brown had twice as many games under 50 total yards from scrimmage than Grant had rushing under 50 yards.

Lets not toss out any injury time. Grant had 3 game sunder 50 yards rushing all of last year. Ronnie had 8 games under 50 yards rushing last year. Even after adding in receiving yards Ronnie still has 5 games in which he does not reach 50 total yards. Grant's total yards from scrimmage games under 50 remains at 3.

Tell me one reason besides "I think he looked better" (if you read between the lines that translates to "he played for my team") that anybody should pick Ronnie first.

I do not give Grant a pass. I said even with that, which shows even more reason to pick him this year.

One more point. You will like this one, because it involves stats. In fact, it involves the most important of all stats for this discussion - fantasy football stats.In my league, over the past 2 seasons Grant has 322 points, and Ronnie has 316. That does not seem like a compelling point in favor of Ronnie until you consider the fact that over the course of that timeframe, Ronnie blew out his knee. So, he blew out his knee, missed 9 games in 2007, played much of that time with a horrendously bad OL - the rest of it on a rehabbing knee while sharing carries, and still scored just 6 less points than Grant - and you feel Grant is head and shoulders a better fantasy play than Brown in 2009?

You have to at least admit that it is debatable, right?

Grant was out for just as many games, basically, as he wasn't the starter, 3rd down back, or backup on his team. It is debatable, and I would be happy to place a friendly Andrew Jackson on performance this year. We coudl discuss that over PM if you're interested I do not own Grant anywhere. I do not own Brown either. Most of my leagues find me to be the owner of CJ4.24, KSmith, Slaton, DWill. As they were inaugurals and I kept the guys I got late or they're dynasties.

I think situation has to come into play as well. Grant doesn't share. Grant has a better offense. Grant's team performs better on 3rd downs to keep drives alive. Grant has a much much MUCH better QB. Grant gets Detroit twice. Grant's production last year, IMO, was at a near equal disadvantage to Ronnie's. Ronnie was months removed from his injury (9 i believe? check that if you wish) and went to camp. Grant missed camp and had a nagging injury while he played. In my view, those cancel out.

TDs are also volatile. They inflated Ronnie's stats last year, and deflated Grant's. Again, look at the similarities to Thomas Jones last season. I have no problem at all projecting Grant to score 8 TDs this year with the potential for more. That would be 36 more points right there.

Again, I suppose they are close. But we really haven't seen either one have the chance to go a full season where everything was great and they could perform to their talent level. I'm just looking at it, and seeing way too many question marks for Brown, and zero question marks for Grant, while Grant is also more consistent production if you say the questions don't matter. So yes, I would take him head and shoulders above Ronnie.

I still take Ronnie over Grant without hesitation, but I will give you this:You have me thinking about trying to make a move to acquire Grant in my dynasty league. His current perceived value is low enough that I feel I may be able to get him for the 11th overall pick in the rookie draft, and he would look awesome as a backup (for Ronnie Brown) - probably better than what I will get at 11.

 

[Billy Ball Thorton]

Grant is garbage. I put him just below Benson this year and I am not joking. I think sooner than later Jackson will take more and more carries from Grant. When healthy Jackson has more talent and was drafted as such.And why are you talking about 07 rather than 08?? Grant proved as did A-Train (when he won rookie of the year over LT) he was a one hit wonder.Late in the 08 Grant was healthy Rodgers was tearing it up and Grant was still garbage. No excuses for him there.Edit to add. Comparing Ronnie to Grant makes me laugh. Thats like comparing Fitz to Jennings

This is an awful posting. Just awful.Jackson is lousy. The stats back that up. If you would like, I'll pull some of the other threads that go over this. Grant may not be world class but he's the only solid option. Which is probably the reason you like Benson - he's the only realistic option.Fitzgerald and Jennings are both absolute studs. Seriously, using your comparison does not add up - Jennings is a great young wr.They way you railed against Grant you're making it seem like it'd be like comparing Randy Moss to Sinorce Moss.

Jennings has one 80 catch season and thats it. Same thing was being said about Braylon Edwards this time last year. It takes more than one 80 catch season to become a "stud" the potential is there but his stats last year are no more impressive than what Michael Clayton did in his rookie season. Fitz on the other hand has proved himself. No way the 2 should be compared right now. Not even close.

 

[Instinctive]

Grant is garbage. I put him just below Benson this year and I am not joking. I think sooner than later Jackson will take more and more carries from Grant. When healthy Jackson has more talent and was drafted as such.And why are you talking about 07 rather than 08?? Grant proved as did A-Train (when he won rookie of the year over LT) he was a one hit wonder.Late in the 08 Grant was healthy Rodgers was tearing it up and Grant was still garbage. No excuses for him there.Edit to add. Comparing Ronnie to Grant makes me laugh. Thats like comparing Fitz to Jennings

This is an awful posting. Just awful.Jackson is lousy. The stats back that up. If you would like, I'll pull some of the other threads that go over this. Grant may not be world class but he's the only solid option. Which is probably the reason you like Benson - he's the only realistic option.Fitzgerald and Jennings are both absolute studs. Seriously, using your comparison does not add up - Jennings is a great young wr.They way you railed against Grant you're making it seem like it'd be like comparing Randy Moss to Sinorce Moss.

Jennings has one 80 catch season and thats it. Same thing was being said about Braylon Edwards this time last year. It takes more than one 80 catch season to become a "stud" the potential is there but his stats last year are no more impressive than what Michael Clayton did in his rookie season. Fitz on the other hand has proved himself. No way the 2 should be compared right now. Not even close.

Yeah, you could say that. Or you could have noticed Jennings 2007 season and say he's been pretty good for 2 years now. Also, I wanted to attack your Grant stand:I added 07 stats because if you can read, the guy I was debating with brought them into the question and I wanted to make sure we looked at all the 07 stats if we were gonna use some.Grant is nothing like ATrain, he had a great year last season. 1200 rushing yards? And you think he's a bust? After rushing for more yards than all but 8 players in the entire league, while battling a bad hammy after missing training camp? Puh-leaze. If you think being in the top 10 rushers in the NFL is garbage, by all means believe it. But your boy Ronnie was 19th...I should repeat what the other guy above me said: That was an awful posting. Just awful. Edit to add: Umm, Jennings and Fitz are in the same conversation. If you don;t believe it, go start a poll with the question, "Are Jennings and Fitz both top 10 WRs?" Put the answer options to "Just Fitz" Just Greg" and "both" and "neither"Just see what happens. Also, maybe the Cardinals should not view his team's best WR as God and look at the facts? Which say both are extremely good. Fitz may be better (I think he is) but to say they are uncomparable is moronic and uninformed.

 

[Dave Larkin]

At the right price, any player is worth taking. I have a lot of confidence in Ronnie Brown this season and beyond.

Things are falling into place nicely for him. Ricky Williams is coming to the end of his career revival and the Dolphins under Tony Sparano like to run the football to establish that vertical passing game for Pennington (and perhaps Henne in due course.) The Dolphins are most definitely a "run to set up the pass" team, and not the other way around. The result will be plenty of looks for Brown.

In his four seasons with the Dolphins, Brown has finished only once in the top 20 fantasy RBs, and that was this past season. Still, this statistic is slightly misleading, as he was injured for most of 2008 and before that, he never had the workload he has the potential to carry in 2009. Add to this that he has always had at least 30 receptions and a very solid career YPC average of 4.3 (disregarding 2008 where he only had 119 carries) and Brown's upside looks tremendous to me.

The bottom line is this:

* Ronnie Brown is going to be the bellcow on an offense that will try their best to establish the running game and build on a successful 2008

* He is in a contract year, and players in their contract year usually produce big - another positive

* Miami's passing game, with Ted Ginn maturing all the time and Camarillo returning, not to mention Davone Bess having a year of experience under his belt, will help Brown see less 8 in the box looks on defense

* He doesn't have much wear on the tires and is two years removed from his ACL surgery - previous RBs who have had this kind of surgery often take two years to get back to their true selves

That's why I'm on the Ronnie Brown bandwagon in 2009!

 

[Billy Ball Thorton]

Grant is garbage. I put him just below Benson this year and I am not joking. I think sooner than later Jackson will take more and more carries from Grant. When healthy Jackson has more talent and was drafted as such.And why are you talking about 07 rather than 08?? Grant proved as did A-Train (when he won rookie of the year over LT) he was a one hit wonder.Late in the 08 Grant was healthy Rodgers was tearing it up and Grant was still garbage. No excuses for him there.Edit to add. Comparing Ronnie to Grant makes me laugh. Thats like comparing Fitz to Jennings

This is an awful posting. Just awful.Jackson is lousy. The stats back that up. If you would like, I'll pull some of the other threads that go over this. Grant may not be world class but he's the only solid option. Which is probably the reason you like Benson - he's the only realistic option.Fitzgerald and Jennings are both absolute studs. Seriously, using your comparison does not add up - Jennings is a great young wr.They way you railed against Grant you're making it seem like it'd be like comparing Randy Moss to Sinorce Moss.

Jennings has one 80 catch season and thats it. Same thing was being said about Braylon Edwards this time last year. It takes more than one 80 catch season to become a "stud" the potential is there but his stats last year are no more impressive than what Michael Clayton did in his rookie season. Fitz on the other hand has proved himself. No way the 2 should be compared right now. Not even close.

Yeah, you could say that. Or you could have noticed Jennings 2007 season and say he's been pretty good for 2 years now. Also, I wanted to attack your Grant stand:I added 07 stats because if you can read, the guy I was debating with brought them into the question and I wanted to make sure we looked at all the 07 stats if we were gonna use some.Grant is nothing like ATrain, he had a great year last season. 1200 rushing yards? And you think he's a bust? After rushing for more yards than all but 8 players in the entire league, while battling a bad hammy after missing training camp? Puh-leaze. If you think being in the top 10 rushers in the NFL is garbage, by all means believe it. But your boy Ronnie was 19th...I should repeat what the other guy above me said: That was an awful posting. Just awful. Edit to add: Umm, Jennings and Fitz are in the same conversation. If you don;t believe it, go start a poll with the question, "Are Jennings and Fitz both top 10 WRs?" Put the answer options to "Just Fitz" Just Greg" and "both" and "neither"Just see what happens. Also, maybe the Cardinals should not view his team's best WR as God and look at the facts? Which say both are extremely good. Fitz may be better (I think he is) but to say they are uncomparable is moronic and uninformed.

Those 1203 rushing yards came at 3.8 yards a carry. Care to name how many RB's he had a better avg than?(I bet it was alot less than 8) The 1203 is misleading if you look at his ypc. It's not good, not too mention 4 td's on 312 carries?? Now thtas awful.Jackson happend to have a 5.5 ypc avg. Granted if he was a full time starter that would go down but I doubt it would drop to 3.8As far as your pole it's common knowladge Fitz is in a diffrent tleague even fantasy wise then Jennings. I don't really care what the pole says because any ****, jane, marry that has Jennings on their "fantasy" team will answer as such. If I could poll NFL coaches I know I would be correct. It's NOT CLOSE.

 

[tdmills]

At the right price, any player is worth taking. I have a lot of confidence in Ronnie Brown this season and beyond.

Things are falling into place nicely for him. Ricky Williams is coming to the end of his career revival and the Dolphins under Tony Sparano like to run the football to establish that vertical passing game for Pennington (and perhaps Henne in due course.) The Dolphins are most definitely a "run to set up the pass" team, and not the other way around. The result will be plenty of looks for Brown.

In his four seasons with the Dolphins, Brown has finished only once in the top 20 fantasy RBs, and that was this past season. Still, this statistic is slightly misleading, as he was injured for most of 2008 and before that, he never had the workload he has the potential to carry in 2009. Add to this that he has always had at least 30 receptions and a very solid career YPC average of 4.3 (disregarding 2008 where he only had 119 carries) and Brown's upside looks tremendous to me.

The bottom line is this:

* Ronnie Brown is going to be the bellcow on an offense that will try their best to establish the running game and build on a successful 2008How do you know that is the Dolphins purpose.....its an assumption.

* He is in a contract year, and players in their contract year usually produce big - another positive

* Miami's passing game, with Ted Ginn maturing all the time and Camarillo returning, not to mention Davone Bess having a year of experience under his belt, will help Brown see less 8 in the box looks on defenseGinn is horrible and I would rather have the Titans WR's....less 8 man boxes....with Pennington's cannon?

* He doesn't have much wear on the tires and is two years removed from his ACL surgery - previous RBs who have had this kind of surgery often take two years to get back to their true selvesLarry Johnson doesn't have as much wear and tear either these past two seasons or b/c he wasn't the guy earlier in his career.....but nobody is giving him that benefit.

That's why I'm on the Ronnie Brown bandwagon in 2009!

 

[baconisgood]

I don't get all the man love for this guy.

In his four year career, he has had 1 season over 1,000 yards(1,008 in 06).

In his great stretch run of being a great RB early in 07 he put it up vs some very soft defenses(Jets, Oakland, Houston, and Cleveland were his big games).

28 when he begins the season....he has no great QB to keep defenses out of crowding the box.

Those are all not good signs.....I'm selling while all of this Lee Evans potential is still there.

Umm.. Pennington was a top 10 QB last year.

Some people don't like to bother with facts.

Pennington has one of the weakest arms of any starting QB in the NFL. He doesn't scare opposing defenses with the long ball and yes they will crowd the LOS.

I think this is one of the enduring myths of the NFL and fantasy football that I would like to see busted. Crowding the LOS and playing the run hard are done with the linebackers and the shallow safety- it is the intermediate passing game that prevents this more than anything else- unless teams are actually stacking 9 in the box. Adding Berrian to the Vikings didn't give Peterson more running room- since lets face it- if your deep safety is trying to tackle ADP the Vikings have already won that possession. Pennington is more than adequate at hitting intermediate targets and moving the chains and keeping the LBs from playing the run hard. Curtis Martin averaged 4.2 and 4.6 y/c- both above his career average in 2002 and 2006 when Pennington started 12 and 13 games - and averaged 3.8 in 2000, 4.5 in 2001 and 4.0 in 2002 when pennington started 0,0 and 9 games. I think its safe to say that Martin wasn't facing undue pressure with Pennington at QB.

 

[dotman]

^ I would take Ryan Grant over Brown every day of the week.

Really? That decisively? Based upon what?I dont think it is reasonable to argue that Grant is more talented. He has had 1.5 seasons of relevance in the NFL. For the last half of 07 he was money. Brown was better though for the first half of 07 than Grant was for the second half. In 08 Brown was recovering from a torn ACL and playing for a team that was 1-15 the previous year, and he was still more fantasy-relevant than Grant.

To me, Grant is a very average RB. Granted, he is in a solid offense without much competition.

On the other hand, Ronnie is a very talented RB - maybe a top 5-10 talent. He is far more versatile than Grant. He does have more competion for carries than Grant does, but that is really the only leg up that I see Grant having over Brown. I guess it can be argued that the Green Bay offense will present more opportunity - and thats a solid point - but Pennington is a bit underrated in these parts. The Miami OL should be very good this season, and even if White steals some wildcat snaps, Ronnie will likely still be the RB in that formation most of the time. Ricky logged some good yardage playing that role.

Personally, there is no shot I would take Grant over Brown even one day a week - especially not on Sundays.

Could you tell me a reason I should like Brown? Grant should be even better this year after meshing a year with Rodgers and spending a summer involved in OTAs and TC. Maybe you should take a second to remove the glasses and look at the facts.

Brown should be even better after meshing a year with Pennington.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

- Baconisgood

I think this is one of the enduring myths of the NFL and fantasy football that I would like to see busted. Crowding the LOS and playing the run hard are done with the linebackers and the shallow safety- it is the intermediate passing game that prevents this more than anything else- unless teams are actually stacking 9 in the box. Adding Berrian to the Vikings didn't give Peterson more running room- since lets face it- if your deep safety is trying to tackle ADP the Vikings have already won that possession. Pennington is more than adequate at hitting intermediate targets and moving the chains and keeping the LBs from playing the run hard. Curtis Martin averaged 4.2 and 4.6 y/c- both above his career average in 2002 and 2006 when Pennington started 12 and 13 games - and averaged 3.8 in 2000, 4.5 in 2001 and 4.0 in 2002 when pennington started 0,0 and 9 games. I think its safe to say that Martin wasn't facing undue pressure with Pennington at QB.

Great post. I too was under the impression that Pennington did not help RBs with his arm strength despite his accuracy - but your post makes a ton of sense. Appreciate the education.

 

[LOCO]

Looks like Ronnie Brown is going to make or break a lot of seasons.

 

[tdmills]

I don't get all the man love for this guy.

In his four year career, he has had 1 season over 1,000 yards(1,008 in 06).

In his great stretch run of being a great RB early in 07 he put it up vs some very soft defenses(Jets, Oakland, Houston, and Cleveland were his big games).

28 when he begins the season....he has no great QB to keep defenses out of crowding the box.

Those are all not good signs.....I'm selling while all of this Lee Evans potential is still there.

Umm.. Pennington was a top 10 QB last year.

Some people don't like to bother with facts.

Pennington has one of the weakest arms of any starting QB in the NFL. He doesn't scare opposing defenses with the long ball and yes they will crowd the LOS.

I think this is one of the enduring myths of the NFL and fantasy football that I would like to see busted. Crowding the LOS and playing the run hard are done with the linebackers and the shallow safety- it is the intermediate passing game that prevents this more than anything else- unless teams are actually stacking 9 in the box. Adding Berrian to the Vikings didn't give Peterson more running room- since lets face it- if your deep safety is trying to tackle ADP the Vikings have already won that possession. Pennington is more than adequate at hitting intermediate targets and moving the chains and keeping the LBs from playing the run hard. Curtis Martin averaged 4.2 and 4.6 y/c- both above his career average in 2002 and 2006 when Pennington started 12 and 13 games - and averaged 3.8 in 2000, 4.5 in 2001 and 4.0 in 2002 when pennington started 0,0 and 9 games. I think its safe to say that Martin wasn't facing undue pressure with Pennington at QB.

Bernard Berrian wasn't as much of a factor in helping Peterson because they couldn't consistantly throw the deep ball. So your telling me that a great deep passing game doesn't help the run game, but rather the intermediate passing game?Wouldn't the safties be closer to the line of scrimmage vs an intermediate rather than a deep passing game.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Focus on bolded portion for a second please...how the hell can you believe that? Grant rushed for 1200+ yards. After missign training camp and battling a hamstring injury. As a matter of fact, lets look here:

Lets say that after week 4, Grant was back in shape. And I believe even then he was battling the hammy injury. He had 1 game under 50 yards rushing from that point on. Brown on the other hand had 6 games under 50 yards rushing. I know we like Brown's yfs totals, but after adding in receiving, he still has 4 games under 50 total.

Don't tell me I conveniently left out the game against NE with the Wildcat, I think we can all say it was a new formation, totally unprepared defense, and will not be repeated. Besides, it wasn't his highest yardage game, his highest was week 5 with 132 yfs. Grant's best was 151 yfs in week 11.

Yards per carry are similar. In fact, if you do eliminate the Patriots game as an outlier (which according to a Q1/Q3 analysis and IQR it is a statistical outlier) they have the same ypc.

On the issue of 2007:

Throwing out yet another statistical outlier for Brown, his week 4 against Oakland (8.9 ypc that game) he ends with a 4.5 ypc for that year. He does add a lot of yfs, and Cam Cameron is forcefeeding him the ball. We see production, but we see lots of other bakcs with the same per catch and per carry stats that didn't have that scheme. Btw, that scheme is now gone.

Grant's 2007 ypc, after throwing out a statistical outlier in week 17 (9.5 ypc that game) is 4.9. That to me says he was gaining more yards per carry than Brown. Huh. Good to look at actual numbers sometimes I suppose.

Adn again, even after all that, Grant doesn't lose carries to anybody. Grant doesn't have the ACL questions remaining. Which Brown does. Grant is not in a timeshare. Brown is. Grant has an offense that can effectively move the chains on 3rd down. Brown does not.

Could you tell me a reason I should like Brown? Grant should be even better this year after meshing a year with Rodgers and spending a summer involved in OTAs and TC. Maybe you should take a second to remove the glasses and look at the facts.

I admit there is some homerism in my analysis. However, I do not ever believe in throwing out games just because they were good. They all still count. I owned Grant during his magical second half in 2007. Watched every game he played. I never miss a Fins game, so I have seen Brown's entire body of work as well. To me, when you actually watch both backs play football, there is no contest between the 2 of them. Grant is an average straight ahead runner with little to no shiftiness, and average speed. He is a good running back, but there is absolutely nothing special about him. Brown (in 2007, at his peak) was explosive, playing behind one of the worst OLs I have ever seen, getting yards every way a running back possibly can despite having no holes, and getting hit in the backfield on almost every play. He looked special.

You give Grant a pass last year because he had a new QB.

Last year, Brown had a fairly good season despite most thinking that he would not even play until week 6. He came back early, and performed admirably in a new offense with a new QB, a new coaching staff, and a new ACL. If you want to throw out the New England game, go ahead, but it still counts - and he still did all that despite the fact that it was also his first time running the wildcat offense in a real game. If you want to give Grant a pass on last year because he had a new QB, then please afford Ronnie the same respect.

If I knew you, I would wager a hearty sum that Ronnie will be better than Grant this year, next year, and the year after that. I have seen both of them play enough to trust my eyes instead of trying to eliminate "statistical outliers" and crunch numbers. Talent usually prevails, and the difference in the talent level of these 2 guys is easy to see for me.

Focusing again on your bolded part - in my league Ronnie had 185 points and Grant had 157. Ronnie was handed a very light load most weeks due to his ACL recovery, and he still outscored Grant. This year, the ACL is healed (I know Grant is healthier too), the line is improved, Ricky is 32, and the staff has had another year to install it's offense. I am not saying it is cut and dry, but to say you would take Grant all day any day seems like an extraordinary amount of confidence given his body of work. I guess it says more for your disrespect of Ronnie that you can say that about a very average guy like Grant.

You are entitled to that. I hope you are wrong though - and I think you are.

I thought I addressed 08 as well, and I only addressed 07 because you brought it up.I suppose all that I can say is I hope you're still gonna be here next season, and if you found me trustworthy, I would do a modest $20 bet on higher fantasy output with the disclosure that significant injury renders it void.

Look, Grant rushed for 1203 yards. Brown didn't crack 1000. Here is the closest comparison I can give to Grant right now: Thomas Jones...1191 in 07 and 1TD. Lats year 1312 and 13 TDs.

TD are simply volatile, and I would try to remember some of those pesky little "facts" before making such blanket statements. Also, go look at the crank scores (consistency) for each RB. I will repeat what I said about last season, if we toss out where one could say each RB was injured, Brown had twice as many games under 50 total yards from scrimmage than Grant had rushing under 50 yards.

Lets not toss out any injury time. Grant had 3 game sunder 50 yards rushing all of last year. Ronnie had 8 games under 50 yards rushing last year. Even after adding in receiving yards Ronnie still has 5 games in which he does not reach 50 total yards. Grant's total yards from scrimmage games under 50 remains at 3.

Tell me one reason besides "I think he looked better" (if you read between the lines that translates to "he played for my team") that anybody should pick Ronnie first.

I do not give Grant a pass. I said even with that, which shows even more reason to pick him this year.

One more point. You will like this one, because it involves stats. In fact, it involves the most important of all stats for this discussion - fantasy football stats.In my league, over the past 2 seasons Grant has 322 points, and Ronnie has 316. That does not seem like a compelling point in favor of Ronnie until you consider the fact that over the course of that timeframe, Ronnie blew out his knee. So, he blew out his knee, missed 9 games in 2007, played much of that time with a horrendously bad OL - the rest of it on a rehabbing knee while sharing carries, and still scored just 6 less points than Grant - and you feel Grant is head and shoulders a better fantasy play than Brown in 2009?

You have to at least admit that it is debatable, right?

Grant was out for just as many games, basically, as he wasn't the starter, 3rd down back, or backup on his team. It is debatable, and I would be happy to place a friendly Andrew Jackson on performance this year. We coudl discuss that over PM if you're interested I do not own Grant anywhere. I do not own Brown either. Most of my leagues find me to be the owner of CJ4.24, KSmith, Slaton, DWill. As they were inaugurals and I kept the guys I got late or they're dynasties.

I think situation has to come into play as well. Grant doesn't share. Grant has a better offense. Grant's team performs better on 3rd downs to keep drives alive. Grant has a much much MUCH better QB. Grant gets Detroit twice. Grant's production last year, IMO, was at a near equal disadvantage to Ronnie's. Ronnie was months removed from his injury (9 i believe? check that if you wish) and went to camp. Grant missed camp and had a nagging injury while he played. In my view, those cancel out.

TDs are also volatile. They inflated Ronnie's stats last year, and deflated Grant's. Again, look at the similarities to Thomas Jones last season. I have no problem at all projecting Grant to score 8 TDs this year with the potential for more. That would be 36 more points right there.

Again, I suppose they are close. But we really haven't seen either one have the chance to go a full season where everything was great and they could perform to their talent level. I'm just looking at it, and seeing way too many question marks for Brown, and zero question marks for Grant, while Grant is also more consistent production if you say the questions don't matter. So yes, I would take him head and shoulders above Ronnie.

I respect your opinion, but for what it's worth I believe that you will be hard pressed to find many informed FFB participants that will agree with you. Looking at the ADP of the 4 "expert drafts" that FBG tracked for us, here are the results:MFL - Ronnie 32, Grant 40

Calc - Ronnie 27, Grant 33

CBS - Ronnie 25, Grant 29

ESPN - Ronnie 28, Grant 34

For redraft, 9 out of 13 of the FBG staff have Ronnie going ahead of Grant. For dynasty 5 out of 5 pick Ronnie in non-ppr, 7 of 9 in ppr.

I have no issue with going against the grain. In fact, I feel that is what wins titles. But based upon this data, you are in the minority to even pick Grant ahead of Ronnie, but to say it is head and shoulders and make it sound like an easy decision kind of puts you on an island.

I look forward to revisiting this discussion throughout the season. I am not nearly as confident with my side of the discussion as you seem to be, but I do feel good enough to sink my heels in and make my pick on this one. Will be fun to watch it play out - especially if I wind up being right. If I am wrong, I wont hide!

 

[puckalicious]

Grant is garbage. I put him just below Benson this year and I am not joking. I think sooner than later Jackson will take more and more carries from Grant. When healthy Jackson has more talent and was drafted as such.

And why are you talking about 07 rather than 08?? Grant proved as did A-Train (when he won rookie of the year over LT) he was a one hit wonder.

Late in the 08 Grant was healthy Rodgers was tearing it up and Grant was still garbage. No excuses for him there.

Edit to add. Comparing Ronnie to Grant makes me laugh. Thats like comparing Fitz to Jennings

This is an awful posting. Just awful.Jackson is lousy. The stats back that up. If you would like, I'll pull some of the other threads that go over this. Grant may not be world class but he's the only solid option. Which is probably the reason you like Benson - he's the only realistic option.

Fitzgerald and Jennings are both absolute studs. Seriously, using your comparison does not add up - Jennings is a great young wr.

They way you railed against Grant you're making it seem like it'd be like comparing Randy Moss to Sinorce Moss.

Jennings has one 80 catch season and thats it. Same thing was being said about Braylon Edwards this time last year. It takes more than one 80 catch season to become a "stud" the potential is there but his stats last year are no more impressive than what Michael Clayton did in his rookie season. Fitz on the other hand has proved himself. No way the 2 should be compared right now. Not even close.

Calvin Johnson has zero 80 catch seasons, so by your measure he is also no more impressive than Clayton.../offtopic

 

[baconisgood]

Bernard Berrian wasn't as much of a factor in helping Peterson because they couldn't consistantly throw the deep ball. So your telling me that a great deep passing game doesn't help the run game, but rather the intermediate passing game?Wouldn't the safties be closer to the line of scrimmage vs an intermediate rather than a deep passing game.

I don't want to imply that a deep game can't help the run game some- but that the intermediate game is more important. An effective intermediate game 8-15 yards down field keeps the LBs and strong safety honest, they can't over play the run and they are the players primarily responsible for stopping the run. Keeping them a step backwards or a step slow in reacting to the run is more important than having a safety that would start 15 yards behind the line of scrimmage start 12 instead.

 

[Jercules]

Bernard Berrian wasn't as much of a factor in helping Peterson because they couldn't consistantly throw the deep ball. So your telling me that a great deep passing game doesn't help the run game, but rather the intermediate passing game?Wouldn't the safties be closer to the line of scrimmage vs an intermediate rather than a deep passing game.

I don't want to imply that a deep game can't help the run game some- but that the intermediate game is more important. An effective intermediate game 8-15 yards down field keeps the LBs and strong safety honest, they can't over play the run and they are the players primarily responsible for stopping the run. Keeping them a step backwards or a step slow in reacting to the run is more important than having a safety that would start 15 yards behind the line of scrimmage start 12 instead.

 

[Stealthycat]

I own both, Grant in more leagues than Brown ........ my take is Brown is a potential top 3-5 RB this year, he could explode with yards/TD's whereas Grant? He's the RB than pounds away and is consistant if not spectacular, and that may be from the offense running the way it does or what have you it just seems to be the way it is

BTW in my drafting I'm taking Brown 1-2 rounds before Grant in every league. Why? I like hitting the home run balls instead of boring base hits Brown is a home run threat this season

 

[dmac37]

More positive news for Ronnie Brown

From Rotoworld:

Ronnie Brown-RB-Dolphins Jul. 20 - 8:49 am et

The player rep for Ronnie Brown says the Dolphins have approached him about an extension for the potential 2010 free agent.

The sides have had preliminary discussions which are expected to intensify during training camp. That the Dolphins are pursuing an extension shows they believe Brown is back to his pre-injury form. It also bodes well for his immediate future as the team's feature back with Ricky Williams moving to more of an ancillary role.

Source: Miami Herald

 

[iSnitch]

I think situation plays a much greater role than talent in predicting production.

Really?Calvin Johnson...

Yes, really. Calvin is quite clearly an immense talent. Perhaps the most talented wr in the league, but definitely amongst the best of the best.But don't think for a moment his numbers would have been nearly as good had he not been in that situation. The team passed the ball a lot because they had a lousy running game and were trying to catch up. The only other weapon was traded a few weeks into the season...and they rotated other options throughout the rest of the year.Calvin certainly had the talent to take advantage of his opportunities, but his chances were increased by his situation. Put him on the Niners, Steelers, Patriots...he's still going to be a good to great fantasy option for his owners, but situations play a huge role for players. At least imo.

 

[Grahamburn]

I think situation plays a much greater role than talent in predicting production.

Really?Calvin Johnson...

Yes, really. Calvin is quite clearly an immense talent. Perhaps the most talented wr in the league, but definitely amongst the best of the best.But don't think for a moment his numbers would have been nearly as good had he not been in that situation. The team passed the ball a lot because they had a lousy running game and were trying to catch up. The only other weapon was traded a few weeks into the season...and they rotated other options throughout the rest of the year.

Calvin certainly had the talent to take advantage of his opportunities, but his chances were increased by his situation. Put him on the Niners, Steelers, Patriots...he's still going to be a good to great fantasy option for his owners, but situations play a huge role for players. At least imo.

I'm . Are you saying Calvin was in a good situation for fantasy production? A defense that can't get off the field, an offense that can't sustain drives, Dan Orlovsky/Daunte Culpepper at QB, and no one to take coverage away. Calvin produced because he was simply the best player on the field every Sunday and no one can cover him. Put him on a good team and you'd see Randy Moss 2007 type numbers.I was simply disagreeing with your first assessment that situation is a better predictor of possible fantasy output than talent and gave an example.

Ronnie Brown is a talented player that has produced fairly well in a situation that wasn't necessarily conducive to fantasy production. The argument in here is that Ryan Grant is a more valuable player because his situation is better. I think that's ludicrous.

I disagree that Grant should be drafted before Brown, and I also think Brown's situation has improved dramatically this year, making Brown the better pick.

 

[iSnitch]

I agree with you Brown is the better talent AND he has the better situation than Grant (though I'm quite fond of Grant).

As far as Calvin, he was the ONLY threat.

If you put him on the Patriots he would have a monster season, but that's only because they just had one of the best offensive seasons of all time.

Put him on a team with a normal offense that has other legitimate threats, and no, I don't believe he would do as well.

 

[thehornet]

^ I would take Ryan Grant over Brown every day of the week.

 

[Instinctive]

^ I would take Ryan Grant over Brown every day of the week.

Yep. I'm eating those words right now. Big time. My only consolation is that Brown was taken before Grant, I took Grant, and the Brown owner is 2-3 sitting at #10/12 while I sit 4-1 at #1.Although there is still time for something to happen where GB's oline could get it together and Grant could turn it on. As of now though, I definitely missed on this one.