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Running Backs and Vertical Leap (1 Viewer)

EBF

Footballguy
Here are the combine results from last year's running back class arranged in order of highest vertical leap:1. Cedric Cobbs - 40"2. Tatum Bell - 38.5"3. Kevin Jones - 38"4. Julius Jones - 37.5"5. Mewelde Moore - 35"6a. Clarence Farmer - 34.5"6b. Ran Carthon - 34.5" 8a. Shaud Williams - 34"8b. Fred Russell - 34"10. Josh Davis - 33.5"Chris Perry and Steven Jackson didn't jump at the combine, but I was able to find a reliable source for Jackson's leap. With him included, the top 10 is as follows:1. Cedric Cobbs - 40"2. Tatum Bell - 38.5"3a. Kevin Jones - 38"3b. Steven Jackson - 38" (per NFL.com prospect profile)5. Julius Jones - 37.5"6. Mewelde Moore - 35"7a. Clarence Farmer - 34.5"7b. Ran Carthon - 34.5"9a. Shaud Williams - 34"9b. Fred Russell - 34"In my opinion, Cobbs, Bell, Jones, Jackson, Jones, and Moore are 6 of the top 7 rookie backs from last year's class. It's interesting to me that they all finished in the top six on this list. The other top rookie back, Chris Perry, allegedly has a 40" vertical leap. If that's true, then the top 7 rookie backs also happened to have the top 7 vertical leaps out of all the backs in their draft class. This isn't anything Earth-shattering. Similar lists for 40 times and broad jumps would yield similar results. Neverthless, it's something to think about when evaluating rookie RBs. Vertical leap is largely about fast-twitch muscles and the ability to generate a burst. I guess it should come as no surprise then that the best RBs also have good vertical leaps. 40 times get a lot of hype, but you'd be wise to keep your eye on the VJ results from this year's combine and personal workouts.

 
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Jason Wood

Zoo York
This is an interesting take on a stat I think most of us pay little attention to. Reading your post and the correlation with the 2004 draft class, I wondered how it would hold up as we looked a few years back at RBs that we now have a much purer understanding for whether they are true NFL talents or not.Here are the Vert Leap measurements for the 2002 Draft Class, unfortunately it doesn't lend itself to the same kind of correlative properties that the initial 2004 inspection does.William Green -- 42.0 inchesJosh Scobey -- 40.5Omar Easy -- 40.0Clinton Portis -- 39.0Ladell Betts -- 38.0Brian Westbrook -- 37.0T.J. Duckett -- 37.0Maurice Morris -- 36.5Luke Staley -- 36.0DeShaun Foster -- 35.5Lamar Gordon -- 34.0Najeh Davenport -- 34.0Chester Taylor -- 33.0Travis Stephens -- 32.0Jamar Martin -- 32.0Verron Haynes -- 31.5Jon Wells -- DNP

 

Keysersoze666

Footballguy
EBF, I completely concur with your need for something to analyze during this slow period but this might be a bit over the edge.IMO, the only conclusion you can draw from data like this is that the best players are AMONG the most athletic. DUH.Vertical Leap doesn't even translate well as a success indicator in basketball, a sport where it's importance is obviously higher than football. If only it were so easy.

 

iwascool

Footballguy
I don't think it is really the positive correlation you are looking for here. While a strong vertical leap does not ensure they will be a good RB it does indicate a degree of explosiveness.Maybe I'm being overly negative but I would use this data more as a warning flag on the downside of a player. If you have a player with good production but he plays on a dominate team, flags like a average/below average vertical or short shuttle should raise flags that maybe this is a "system player" and he is not likely to fair well at the next level.

 

-OZ-

Footballguy
I don't think it is really the positive correlation you are looking for here. While a strong vertical leap does not ensure they will be a good RB it does indicate a degree of explosiveness.Maybe I'm being overly negative but I would use this data more as a warning flag on the downside of a player. If you have a player with good production but he plays on a dominate team, flags like a average/below average vertical or short shuttle should raise flags that maybe this is a "system player" and he is not likely to fair well at the next level.
Good points.I'd add that the vertical leap may indicate a TD threat, even if the RB isn't the starter.
 

EBF

Footballguy
This is an interesting take on a stat I think most of us pay little attention to. Reading your post and the correlation with the 2004 draft class, I wondered how it would hold up as we looked a few years back at RBs that we now have a much purer understanding for whether they are true NFL talents or not.Here are the Vert Leap measurements for the 2002 Draft Class, unfortunately it doesn't lend itself to the same kind of correlative properties that the initial 2004 inspection does.William Green -- 42.0 inchesJosh Scobey -- 40.5Omar Easy -- 40.0Clinton Portis -- 39.0Ladell Betts -- 38.0Brian Westbrook -- 37.0T.J. Duckett -- 37.0Maurice Morris -- 36.5Luke Staley -- 36.0DeShaun Foster -- 35.5Lamar Gordon -- 34.0Najeh Davenport -- 34.0Chester Taylor -- 33.0Travis Stephens -- 32.0Jamar Martin -- 32.0Verron Haynes -- 31.5Jon Wells -- DNP
Thanks for digging up those numbers. It looks 2004 may have been a bit of an aberration. It's amazing that William Green has that kind of leaping ability. He's not very explosive with the pads on. For that matter, Josh Scobey and Omar Easy aren't exactly studs either. I suppose that the only strong conclusion I can draw from the two sets of numbers is that no back from either class who has a vertical leap under 35" has established himself as a legitimate NFL starter. Chester Taylor, Najeh Davenport, and Lamar Gordon have had their good moments, but they're not starters at this point in time. If you just look at the starting running backs from the two lists, you get the following results:Clinton Portis - 39"Tatum Bell - 38.5" Kevin Jones - 38"Steven Jackson - 38"Julius Jones - 37.5"Brian Westbrook - 37"DeShaun Foster - 35.5" (starter?)Vertical leap may not predict future success, but, as one poster already mentioned, a poor vertical leap may indicate that a given player lacks the athletic ability needed to excel in the NFL. It's definitely something I'll keep an eye on this year.
 

cstu

Footballguy
Would someone want to calculate Vertical * Weight? That's more useful since there are a lot of smaller backs with high vertical. Maybe it's a good way to measure that elusive RB "explosiveness" quality.

 
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EBF

Footballguy
Would someone want to calculate Vertical * Weight? That's more useful since there are a lot of smaller backs with high vertical. Maybe it's a good way to measure that elusive RB "explosiveness" quality.
The TJ Duckett numbers seem to contradict that. He looks like an all star on paper, but I've never quite seen the quickness from him.
 
Would someone want to calculate Vertical * Weight? That's more useful since there are a lot of smaller backs with high vertical. Maybe it's a good way to measure that elusive RB "explosiveness" quality.
The TJ Duckett numbers seem to contradict that. He looks like an all star on paper, but I've never quite seen the quickness from him.
I still can't believe Duckett ran a 4.4 at the combine. He just doesn't look that fast in game.
 
Interesting topic, EBF....With Woods data, it's obvious it's not an IF, THEN correlation. But I do like the idea of using it as a red flag for weeding out potential system RBs...What was Ron Dayne's vertical? :lol: I'm laughing, but am also serious....

 
Digging up past data...2000 - Thomas Jones had a 35" vertical...2001 RBs - Combine #sLaDainianTomlinson TCU 40.5Correll Buckhalter Nebraska 40Michael Bennett Wisconsin 39.5Rudi Johnson Auburn 37.5Reggie White Oklahoma St 37.5Corey Crume E Kentucky 37Derrick Blaylock St F Austin 35.5Derek Combs Ohio State 35Derek Homer Kentucky 32.5Marcel Shipp UMass 32.5Anthony Thomas Michigan 32.5Travis Minor Florida State 32David Allen Kansas St 31Kevan Barlow Pittsburgh DNPJeff Chaney Florida State DNPTravis Henry Tennessee DNPJames Jackson Miami DNPLamont Jordan Maryland DNPDeuce McAllister Mississippi DNPHodges Mitchell Texas DNP

 
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cstu

Footballguy
Chris Perry's pre-draft workout:Perry (5-11¾, 220) did not bench, but ran 4.56 twice in the 40. He also ran 1.54 in the 10-yard dash and 2.63 in the 20-yard dash. He had a 34½-inch vertical jump, a 10-foot-4 long jump, ran the short shuttle in 4.08 seconds and clocked 7.02 in the three-cone drill. Perry was very impressive in his workout.

 

EBF

Footballguy
Thanks for the update on Perry. Maybe that lends some credence to my hunch that he's a big bust risk. Also, thanks for posting the 2001 numbers. It's not perfect, but once again the good backs had good leaps. I'm going to try to find the 2003 numbers.

 
2003 #s LINK

Quentin Griffin OU 38

Dahrran Diedrick Nebraska 37

Kerry Carter Stanford 36

Dwone Hicks MTSU 34

Derel Watson SCSU 34

Nick Maddox FSU 33.5

Dominick Davis LSU 32.5

Santonio Beard Alabama 31.5

Avon Cobourne WVU 31.5

Chris Brown Colorado DNP

Justin Fargas USC DNP

Ahmad Galloway Alabama DNP

Earnest Graham Florida DNP

Larry Johnson PSU DNP

Willis McGahee Miami DNP

Artose Pinner Kentucky DNP

Musa Smith Georgia DNP

Onterrio Smith Oregon DNP

Lee Suggs VaTech DNP

LaBrandon Toefield LSU DNP

Lots of holes....need individual workout data

 

EBF

Footballguy
Here's what I could find from 2003. The numbers are from NFL.com's prospect profiles, which aren't as accurate as actual combine results. Justin Fargas - 40"Lee Suggs - 38.5"Quentin Griffin - 38.5"Onterrio Smith - 35.5"Chris Brown - 35"Musa Smith - 33.5"Larry Johnson - 33" (Take this with a grain of salt, because he allegedly jumped 41" at the combine)Ahmaad Galloway - 33"Artose Pinner - 32.5"LaBrandon Toefield - 32"Domanick Davis - 31.5"Brock Forsey - 30" The results are far from perfect, but there does seem to be a pretty strong positive correlation between vertical leap and NFL success. Of course, Domanick Davis is arguably the most valuable fantasy back from this draft and his vertical leap is awful by NFL RB standards. Nevertheless, there seems to be a clear dropoff beyond 35" inches if you lump Larry Johnson in with the 35"+ group. Out of four draft classes, only one back with a listed leap under 35" has become his team's regular starter.

 
EBF, Just a note about LJ...From the site I found (by no means official) it shows that LJ didn't perform the VJ at the combine. So the 41" number you mentioned is either from something else or purely fictional.Interestin exercize for a Friday afternoon... :D

 

EBF

Footballguy
EBF, Just a note about LJ...From the site I found (by no means official) it shows that LJ didn't perform the VJ at the combine. So the 41" number you mentioned is either from something else or purely fictional.Interestin exercize for a Friday afternoon... :D
Yea, I noticed that. Now I can't find the article that listed that leap. Perhaps it was from an individual workout. I don't know. These things are surprisingly hard to find.
 

Wilbur Wood

Footballguy
It would seem to me that the VL data would be a better indicator for WR's and CB's.In fact an aggregate of Height, Arm Length and Vertical Leap would be a useful measure of a WR or CB's overall range. Someone like Cris Chambers is only 5' 11', but his arm reach is several inches above average, along with 40" + vertical leap give him excellent overall range.

 

Couch Potato

Footballguy
LEAPING lizards there's some deep diggin' here at FBG!It's a pretty big LEAP of faith to JUMP to conclusions here though. If you SPRING forward in such a manner you are BOUND to be wrong. I'd be HOPPING mad if I'd taken Willie Green based on his vertical JUMP. And ignore 2000 - it was a LEAP year so the numbers are probably inflated. You have been warned - if you screw up now it's not my VAULT. :unsure: Well, I'm gonna BOUNCE outta here.BOING BOING BOING BOING....

 
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EBF

Footballguy
It would seem to me that the VL data would be a better indicator for WR's and CB's.

In fact an aggregate of Height, Arm Length and Vertical Leap would be a useful measure of a WR or CB's overall range. Someone like Cris Chambers is only 5' 11', but his arm reach is several inches above average, along with 40" + vertical leap give him excellent overall range.
True, but I don't think WR requires the same kind of explosive quickness that RB does. Quickness obviously helps at every position, but WR is vastly different from RB. Things like speed, height, hand-eye coordination, and intelligence are more important. I think this is primarily why WRs take longer to develop than RBs. RB is all about athletic ability. The learning curve is small. If you have the ability then you will excel. WR is a bit different. You see a lot of great athletes at WR who are limited by mental mistakes and/or poor hands.

It's interesting to note that successful NFL WRs range from 5'9" to 6'5" and from 180 to 235 pounds. RB is a different story. Almost all of the NFL's top RBs range between 5'9" to 6'1" and 200 to 230 pounds. I think this lends some credence to the idea that wide receiver is a more complex position where a higher number of skills come in to play.

 

ConstruxBoy

Kate's Daddy
Maybe a correlation can be made that guys with higher vertical leaps that haven't done anything yet are more likely to become good backs at some point in the future. Remember that not every RB in the NFL was a stud in college. So maybe guys like Scobey and Easy are better bets to eventually break out, like Priest Holmes, later in their careers?

 

EBF

Footballguy
Notable results from this year's combine:1. Marion Barber III - 40"2. Eric Shelton - 38.5"3a. Anthony Davis - 38"3b. Kay Jay Harris - 38"5. Brandon Jacobs - 37"6. Lionel Gates - 36"7. Cadillac Williams - 35.5"8. JJ Arrington - 35"9. TA McLendon - 35"Ronnie Brown - 34"Maurice Clarett - 34"Vernand Morency - 33.5"Darren Sproles - 33"Cedric Benson - DNJCiatrick Fason - DNJThere's nothing too exciting here. One thing I noticed is that a lot of the backs with good leaps are power backs, which is surprising. I certainly don't consider Shelton, Harris, Jacobs, and Gates among the more explosive backs in this class. I've had Marion Barber rated as the fourth best back in this class for a while. He solidified his position by jumping 40 inches and measuring in at 5'11" 221. If he runs below 4.55 in his workouts then he should be a late first-late second round pick. I think it's interesting that Ronnie Brown only jumped a 34". I would have expected more from him given his speed. Cadillac Williams was solid, but unspectacular with a 35.5".

 
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cstu

Footballguy
Notable results from this year's combine:

1. Marion Barber III - 40"

2. Eric Shelton - 38.5"

3a. Anthony Davis - 38"

3b. Kay Jay Harris - 38"

5. Brandon Jacobs - 37"

6. Lionel Gates - 36"

7. Cadillac Williams - 35.5"

8. JJ Arrington - 35"

9. TA McLendon - 35"

Ronnie Brown - 34"

Maurice Clarett - 34"

Vernand Morency - 33.5"

Darren Sproles - 33"

Cedric Benson - DNJ

Ciatrick Fason - DNJ

There's nothing too exciting here. One thing I noticed is that a lot of the backs with good leaps are power backs, which is surprising. I certainly don't consider Shelton, Harris, Jacobs, and Gates among the more explosive backs in this class.

I've had Marion Barber rated as the fourth best back in this class for a while. He solidified his position by jumping 40 inches and measuring in at 5'11" 221. If he runs below 4.55 in his workouts then he should be a late first-late second round pick.

I think it's interesting that Ronnie Brown only jumped a 34". I would have expected more from him given his speed. Cadillac Williams was solid, but not spectacular with a 35.5".
Morency is getting lowered in my rankings after sub-par 40 and vertical. Ronnie Brown is a little surprising, but he is 233 so it's decent.
 

Bob Magaw

Footballguy
It would seem to me that the VL data would be a better indicator for WR's and  CB's.

In fact an aggregate of Height, Arm Length and Vertical Leap would be a useful measure of a WR or CB's overall range.  Someone like Cris Chambers is only 5' 11', but his arm reach is several inches above average, along with 40" + vertical leap give him excellent overall range.
True, but I don't think WR requires the same kind of explosive quickness that RB does. Quickness obviously helps at every position, but WR is vastly different from RB. Things like speed, height, hand-eye coordination, and intelligence are more important. I think this is primarily why WRs take longer to develop than RBs. RB is all about athletic ability. The learning curve is small. If you have the ability then you will excel. WR is a bit different. You see a lot of great athletes at WR who are limited by mental mistakes and/or poor hands.

It's interesting to note that successful NFL WRs range from 5'9" to 6'5" and from 180 to 235 pounds. RB is a different story. Almost all of the NFL's top RBs range between 5'9" to 6'1" and 200 to 230 pounds. I think this lends some credence to the idea that wide receiver is a more complex position where a higher number of skills come in to play.
interesting comparison of why stud RBs excel sooner, & WRs TYPICALLY have a longer learning corve... sometimes much longer... though as bloom noted in another thread, '04 was a bit of an aberration... clayton, fitzgerald, roy williams, evans & colbert all made substantive contributions to their team in their rookie seasons. we can only infer if this is because this was a historic class in terms of talent & depth (it clearly was), & to what degree college offenses run more pro style offenses than a couple decades ago, better preparing them for the transition?a few other key differences (by way of explanation for differential development rate) between the two skill position sets, & there won't be anything earth shattering or that you haven't considered already EBF, but for the benefit of others who may not have broken it down this way...

wr is dependent on the QB in a way that the RB really isn't... if a QB can't deliver the ball at the right place AND the right time, his production will suffer. for that matter, passing games can be very dependent on the OL as well. probably we could say this about RB too (see MIA RBs in '04), but great RBs in past like barry sanders & LT have been known to surmount mediocre O-Lines. if a QB is constantly flat on his back, clearly this could spell trouble for WR stats & production (probably the prime reason i think dre johnson instantly becomes a monster top 5 WR the second they get their OL problems fixed).

getting in position to receive the ball is obviously far more involved for a WR than RB... especially in todays offenses where the defenses are getting faster & more athletic & blitzing with greater frequency... it is imperative to get the ball out sooner, & this can sometimes mean safe high percentage passes in the flat to RBs, dump offs, quick hitters to TEs, etc... but also pre-arranged passes where the QB is delivering the ball to a spot, in some cases b4 the WR has even made his break on the ball. this includes split second timing on the part of the QB/WR battery, which can often take more than a season to cultivate. also, the WR needs to be very precise in his routes... not 9 paces or 11 paces, but exactly 10... and not rounded off or up, but coming back to the ball in a certain way.

much easier for the RB to just take the handoff.

than there is also the issue of the art of defeating the jam... which takes some WRs a few seasons to master, if they ever do. many WRs possibly could have been stars based on speed, coordination, hands, open field moves... but alas, they don't have the strength or quicks to defeat the jam (kind of like baseball player like henson who could have been a good one if he could only have hit the curve ball... but this is a critical deficiency that his whole career foundered on).

unless you are a chicago bears RB :-)^), most RBs don't have to deal with defenders in their face the instant the ball is snapped.

another issue you alluded to... WRs not only have to have pretty good feet & movement skills... they have to have good hands too (with apologies to k-rob). jamal lewis probably has appalingly bad hands (ditto for bettis, etc.), yet he was still able to compile a 2,000 yard season a few years ago. WRs, in a very real sense, have a more complex task, & have to have a more diverse skill set to bring to bear on this more complex task. obviously freaks like marshall faulk & westbrook who combine skills of RB & WR in one player are the exception.

and it is maybe for this last, most important reason, that it is incumbent on the arm-chair scout (ie- us) to thoroughly vet prospective WRs for traits such as intangibles, football smarts work ethic... ALL the WRs that did well in '04 it could be argued, scored highly in the intangibles department... imo, this bodes well for them having a fast track development cycle which could supersede the usual historical norms for WR development of 2-3 years.

we are definitely in a different era with salary cap where players are expected to perform much more rapidly... & often placed in positions to do so. gone also are the days where coach like mike shula could flail for 4 season... there is now much more intense pressure to win quickly, when owners & fans see team like CAR go from last to super bowl in two seasons.

i have not scouted edwards in intangibles dept, but what i hear is somewhat mixed, but for the most part positive. i would have no hesitaion to draft mike williams or mark clayton based on what i have heard about their work ethic, passion for the game & desire to be great. i don't know enough about the next tier (troy williamson, roody white, reggie brown) to make this determination at the current time, but we still have time until the draft to make these sorts of determinations... in aggregate... in the inimitable stylings of the shark pool. :^)

 
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EBF

Footballguy
I thought it might be worthwhile to re-visit this topic. Looking at last year's class, it doesn't appear as if vertical leap was a great predictor of NFL success. Several of the top jumpers failed to make an impact as rookies. However, it does seem worth noting that Cadillac Williams, Marion Barber, and Ronnie Brown (the top three rookie rushers?) all had vertical leaps of at least 34".

Having had some time to further evaluate the importance of the vertical jump, I've concluded that it is a useful indicator of athletic potential, particularly when combined with other measures such as the three cone drill and the broad jump.

Here are some numbers from this year's class:

Vertical Leap

1. Joseph Addai - 38.5"

2. Jerious Norwood - 36.5"

3. Maurice Drew - 36"

4. DeAngelo Williams - 35.5"

5. Quinton Ganther - 36"

6a. Derrick Ross - 35"

6b. Wali Lundy - 35"

7. Jerome Harrison - 34.5"

Others:

Brian Calhoun - 31.5"

Reggie Bush - DNJ

LenDale White - DNJ

Laurence Maroney - DNJ

Broad Jump

1. Joseph Addai - 10'5"

2a. Jerome Harrison - 10'4"

2b. Brian Calhoun - 10'4"

3. Jerious Norwood - 10'2"

4. DeAngelo Williams - 10'1"

5. Quinton Ganther - 9'11"

Others:

Maurice Drew - 9'8" (not a terrible mark given his height)

Reggie Bush - DNJ

LenDale White - DNJ

Laurence Maroney - DNJ

3-Cone Drill

1. Jerome Harrison - 6.77 s

2. Jerious Norwood - 6.81 s

3. Wendell Mathis - 6.93 s

4. Leon Washington - 6.94 s

5. Wali Lundy - 6.99 s

Others:

Brian Calhoun - 7.05 s

Maurice Drew - 7.08 s

Joseph Addai - 7.09 s

DeAngelo Williams - DNR

Laurence Maroney - DNR

Reggie Bush - DNR

LenDale White - DNR

Looking across the categories, Jerome Harrison, Jerious Norwood, Joseph Addai, DeAngelo Williams, and Quinton Ganther are the only players to make the top five in at least two different categories. I think it's worth noting that, with the exception of Ganther, these guys were all considered solid prospects prior to the combine. These results support the idea that Norwood, Addai, Williams, and Harrison possess superior physical skills when compared to the less-heralded RB prospects.

While it's dangerous to draw any conclusions from combine results, it does look like Quinton Ganther and Wali Lundy have a bit more physical potential than the other relatively-unheralded RB prospects. In my opinion, this makes them worth considering as sleepers.

That said, it's important to be cautious when weighing the importance of these numbers. JJ Arrington put forth a stellar performance at the 2005 combine, but he was a complete flop during the season.

I think the wise move is to take these athletic measurements into consideration, but to remember that what ultimately matters is whether or not the prospect can actually play football. Nevertheless, these numbers provide encouraging support for the idea that Williams, Addai, Harrison, and Norwood might have the necessary physical ability to make an impact in the NFL.

We'll see how Bush, White, and Maroney do in the coming weeks. I suspect that Reggie will put forth some impressive marks in these categories.

 
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ConstruxBoy

Kate's Daddy
Wanted to bump this thread to put a new spin on comparing verts. I think one of the problems is that taller guys can have a higher leap than smaller guys just based upon their initial height advantage. So I worked to even the playing field.

Hypothesis: An average NFL RB at 5100 (5'10") should be able to leap 32". So I will adjust players to those average and measure the difference.

Method: Average (approximate) a player's height from combine and pro day data and average their vertical leap (if they took it more than once). Adjust to the Average above and note the difference as the Real Vert.

Example: A 5'09" player would be expected to have a 31" vert (one inch shorter = 1 inch less expected). So a 5'09" RB leaping 33.5" would get a Real Vert of 2.5.

Results (sorter from highest to lowest, with Bush and White yet to leap):

Code:
[U]Player                 HT          Leap           Real Vert[/U]M Drew                   5065        36              6.5J Addai                    5110        38.5           5.5D Williams               5090        35.5           4.5G Riggs                   5105        36.5           4.0B Calhoun               5090        34.5           3.5J Harrison               5090        34.5           3.5D Howard                5105        36              3.5Q Ganther               5095         35             3.5J Norwood               5115        36.5           3.0A Hall                      5080        33             3.0L Washington           5075         32.5          3.0D Ross                    5105         35             2.5L Maroney               5115         35.5           2.0P Daniels                 5100         34             2.0D Moore                  5095         32.5           1.0T Henderson            5095         32.5           1.0T Whitehead            5100         30.5          -1.5M Bell                     6000         32             -2.0C Humes                 6005         31.5          -3.0
As we've seen, I'm not sure you can draw any positive side conclusions from this data, but maybe you can draw some negative side conclusions about the guys at the bottom of the list.
 

cws3030

Footballguy
Height has nothing to do with how the vertical jump in measured. When measuring for the vertical a player is asked to extend his arm as far as it can go and is measured. Then they are asked to jump with no steps (maybe a half step, not sure) to jump as high as possible again that spot is measured. Then they take the difference of the two.

ex/ Addai reaches to 90 inches and jumps to 128.5.... that's where his 38.5 would come from.

Therefor the measurements that are given above are an accurate comparison with height playing no role.

 

Futeki

Footballguy
Wanted to bump this thread to put a new spin on comparing verts. I think one of the problems is that taller guys can have a higher leap than smaller guys just based upon their initial height advantage. So I worked to even the playing field.

Hypothesis: An average NFL RB at 5100 (5'10") should be able to leap 32". So I will adjust players to those average and measure the difference.

Method: Average (approximate) a player's height from combine and pro day data and average their vertical leap (if they took it more than once). Adjust to the Average above and note the difference as the Real Vert.

Example: A 5'09" player would be expected to have a 31" vert (one inch shorter = 1 inch less expected). So a 5'09" RB leaping 33.5" would get a Real Vert of 2.5.

Results (sorter from highest to lowest, with Bush and White yet to leap):

Player                 HT          Leap           Real VertM Drew                   5065        36              6.5J Addai                    5110        38.5           5.5D Williams               5090        35.5           4.5G Riggs                   5105        36.5           4.0B Calhoun               5090        34.5           3.5J Harrison               5090        34.5           3.5D Howard                5105        36              3.5Q Ganther               5095         35             3.5J Norwood               5115        36.5           3.0A Hall                      5080        33             3.0L Washington           5075         32.5          3.0D Ross                    5105         35             2.5L Maroney               5115         35.5           2.0P Daniels                 5100         34             2.0D Moore                  5095         32.5           1.0T Henderson            5095         32.5           1.0T Whitehead            5100         30.5          -1.5M Bell                     6000         32             -2.0C Humes                 6005         31.5          -3.0As we've seen, I'm not sure you can draw any positive side conclusions from this data, but maybe you can draw some negative side conclusions about the guys at the bottom of the list.
You thought incorrectly.Starting height+reach is subtracted from the total height attained. The numbers are already calculated regardless of height. In fact, taller, and therefore larger, players would often have smaller vertical leaps than the smaller players (but still reach higher).

 

wannabee

Footballguy
I appreciate the analysis, but have to disagree to a point. I can say, from experience, that the shorter guys should have a better vertical that taller guys. If the vertical is measured in a true fashion, there should not be any discount given to a shorter guy. In addition, I can tell you that a short, powerful guy like Drew should have a higher vertical than a guy like Brandon Jacobs.

I am not saying that vertical jumps are not an indicator of performance or power, rather, the vertical jump results are skewed to the shorter guys anyhow.

Wanted to bump this thread to put a new spin on comparing verts. I think one of the problems is that taller guys can have a higher leap than smaller guys just based upon their initial height advantage. So I worked to even the playing field.

Hypothesis: An average NFL RB at 5100 (5'10") should be able to leap 32". So I will adjust players to those average and measure the difference.

Method: Average (approximate) a player's height from combine and pro day data and average their vertical leap (if they took it more than once). Adjust to the Average above and note the difference as the Real Vert.

Example: A 5'09" player would be expected to have a 31" vert (one inch shorter = 1 inch less expected). So a 5'09" RB leaping 33.5" would get a Real Vert of 2.5.

Results (sorter from highest to lowest, with Bush and White yet to leap):

Code:
[U]Player                 HT          Leap           Real Vert[/U]M Drew                   5065        36              6.5J Addai                    5110        38.5           5.5D Williams               5090        35.5           4.5G Riggs                   5105        36.5           4.0B Calhoun               5090        34.5           3.5J Harrison               5090        34.5           3.5D Howard                5105        36              3.5Q Ganther               5095         35             3.5J Norwood               5115        36.5           3.0A Hall                      5080        33             3.0L Washington           5075         32.5          3.0D Ross                    5105         35             2.5L Maroney               5115         35.5           2.0P Daniels                 5100         34             2.0D Moore                  5095         32.5           1.0T Henderson            5095         32.5           1.0T Whitehead            5100         30.5          -1.5M Bell                     6000         32             -2.0C Humes                 6005         31.5          -3.0
As we've seen, I'm not sure you can draw any positive side conclusions from this data, but maybe you can draw some negative side conclusions about the guys at the bottom of the list.
 

ConstruxBoy

Kate's Daddy
Height has nothing to do with how the vertical jump in measured. When measuring for the vertical a player is asked to extend his arm as far as it can go and is measured. Then they are asked to jump with no steps (maybe a half step, not sure) to jump as high as possible again that spot is measured. Then they take the difference of the two.

ex/ Addai reaches to 90 inches and jumps to 128.5.... that's where his 38.5 would come from.

Therefor the measurements that are given above are an accurate comparison with height playing no role.
:bag: I did not know that. Sorry guys.
 

ConstruxBoy

Kate's Daddy
I appreciate the analysis, but have to disagree to a point. I can say, from experience, that the shorter guys should have a better vertical that taller guys. If the vertical is measured in a true fashion, there should not be any discount given to a shorter guy. In addition, I can tell you that a short, powerful guy like Drew should have a higher vertical than a guy like Brandon Jacobs.

I am not saying that vertical jumps are not an indicator of performance or power, rather, the vertical jump results are skewed to the shorter guys anyhow.

Wanted to bump this thread to put a new spin on comparing verts. I think one of the problems is that taller guys can have a higher leap than smaller guys just based upon their initial height advantage. So I worked to even the playing field.

Hypothesis: An average NFL RB at 5100 (5'10") should be able to leap 32". So I will adjust players to those average and measure the difference.

Method: Average (approximate) a player's height from combine and pro day data and average their vertical leap (if they took it more than once). Adjust to the Average above and note the difference as the Real Vert.

Example: A 5'09" player would be expected to have a 31" vert (one inch shorter = 1 inch less expected). So a 5'09" RB leaping 33.5" would get a Real Vert of 2.5.

Results (sorter from highest to lowest, with Bush and White yet to leap):

Code:
[U]Player                 HT          Leap           Real Vert[/U]M Drew                   5065        36              6.5J Addai                    5110        38.5           5.5D Williams               5090        35.5           4.5G Riggs                   5105        36.5           4.0B Calhoun               5090        34.5           3.5J Harrison               5090        34.5           3.5D Howard                5105        36              3.5Q Ganther               5095         35             3.5J Norwood               5115        36.5           3.0A Hall                      5080        33             3.0L Washington           5075         32.5          3.0D Ross                    5105         35             2.5L Maroney               5115         35.5           2.0P Daniels                 5100         34             2.0D Moore                  5095         32.5           1.0T Henderson            5095         32.5           1.0T Whitehead            5100         30.5          -1.5M Bell                     6000         32             -2.0C Humes                 6005         31.5          -3.0
As we've seen, I'm not sure you can draw any positive side conclusions from this data, but maybe you can draw some negative side conclusions about the guys at the bottom of the list.
Why do you think they help shorter guys? I was thinking of weight, but didn't analysis from last year show that the bigger, heavier power backs did better?
 

wannabee

Footballguy
I appreciate the analysis, but have to disagree to a point.  I can say, from experience, that the shorter guys should have a better vertical that taller guys.  If the vertical is measured in a true fashion, there should not be any discount given to a shorter guy.  In addition, I can tell you that a short, powerful guy like Drew should have a higher vertical than a guy like Brandon Jacobs.

I am not saying that vertical jumps are not an indicator of performance or power, rather, the vertical jump results are skewed to the shorter guys anyhow.

Wanted to bump this thread to put a new spin on comparing verts. I think one of the problems is that taller guys can have a higher leap than smaller guys just based upon their initial height advantage. So I worked to even the playing field.

Hypothesis: An average NFL RB at 5100 (5'10") should be able to leap 32". So I will adjust players to those average and measure the difference.

Method: Average (approximate) a player's height from combine and pro day data and average their vertical leap (if they took it more than once). Adjust to the Average above and note the difference as the Real Vert.

Example: A 5'09" player would be expected to have a 31" vert (one inch shorter = 1 inch less expected). So a 5'09" RB leaping 33.5" would get a Real Vert of 2.5.

Results (sorter from highest to lowest, with Bush and White yet to leap):

Player                 HT          Leap           Real VertM Drew                   5065        36              6.5J Addai                    5110        38.5           5.5D Williams               5090        35.5           4.5G Riggs                   5105        36.5           4.0B Calhoun               5090        34.5           3.5J Harrison               5090        34.5           3.5D Howard                5105        36              3.5Q Ganther               5095         35             3.5J Norwood               5115        36.5           3.0A Hall                      5080        33             3.0L Washington           5075         32.5          3.0D Ross                    5105         35             2.5L Maroney               5115         35.5           2.0P Daniels                 5100         34             2.0D Moore                  5095         32.5           1.0T Henderson            5095         32.5           1.0T Whitehead            5100         30.5          -1.5M Bell                     6000         32             -2.0C Humes                 6005         31.5          -3.0As we've seen, I'm not sure you can draw any positive side conclusions from this data, but maybe you can draw some negative side conclusions about the guys at the bottom of the list.
Why do you think they help shorter guys? I was thinking of weight, but didn't analysis from last year show that the bigger, heavier power backs did better?
Well, Drew weighs more than some of these guys anyway. But, if you look at basketball, because in that game vertical jumps are easier to compare - a guard will have a better vertical than a big guy by a fair margin.I can tell you that (as a big guy), my vertical was much smaller than the little guys. Without looking it up (way too lazy this morning), I would guess that a WR like Moss (tall) has a smaller vertical than that of a shorter WR like SMoss or Smith. RMoss can still jump to a higher point, but it is because he is taller.

Back to basketball example, if spud webb (at 5'7") and a 7' guy can jump to same height, who has the better vertical?

 

ConstruxBoy

Kate's Daddy
Hmmm...those are good points.

Seems obvious to me now that the NFL would already baseline the Vert. Why didn't I figure that out before I did all the stat work? :wall:

 

JayMan

Footballguy
Height has nothing to do with how the vertical jump in measured. When measuring for the vertical a player is asked to extend his arm as far as it can go and is measured. Then they are asked to jump with no steps (maybe a half step, not sure) to jump as high as possible again that spot is measured. Then they take the difference of the two.

ex/ Addai reaches to 90 inches and jumps to 128.5.... that's where his 38.5 would come from.

Therefor the measurements that are given above are an accurate comparison with height playing no role.
:goodposting: That is exactly the way it's done... it has nothing to do with the player's height...

If Drew is 5'6'' - reaches to 90 inches and then jumps to 126.5 - that's a 36.5 vertical leap... If Leinart, at 6'4'' - reaches to 96 inches and then jumps to 126.5 - that's a 30.5 inch vertical...

Nothing to do with the height itself...

You ca argue that a guy 5'6'', 175lbs guy should have a better vertical than a 6'6'', 325lbs OLinemen... but it has nothing to do with height... :P

 
Hmmm...those are good points.

Seems obvious to me now that the NFL would already baseline the Vert. Why didn't I figure that out before I did all the stat work? :wall:
Ahhh, don't sweat it.I was just happy to see some statistical analysis for the football site that prides itself in looking at things by the numbers.

Anyway, the intial assumption was flawed but the effort was good.

I'm still going on the premise that it's a RULE-OUT criteria - with the "bar" set at 34".

If an RB has a VJ less than 34" the chances of him reaching elite/Top10 RB status in his career is very low. If the Vertical jump is over 34", then the RB makes it into the film room for further analysis.

 

ConstruxBoy

Kate's Daddy
Hmmm...those are good points.

Seems obvious to me now that the NFL would already baseline the Vert. Why didn't I figure that out before I did all the stat work? :wall:
Ahhh, don't sweat it.I was just happy to see some statistical analysis for the football site that prides itself in looking at things by the numbers.

Anyway, the intial assumption was flawed but the effort was good.

I'm still going on the premise that it's a RULE-OUT criteria - with the "bar" set at 34".

If an RB has a VJ less than 34" the chances of him reaching elite/Top10 RB status in his career is very low. If the Vertical jump is over 34", then the RB makes it into the film room for further analysis.
That's what it looks like. I was hoping to come up with something more concrete, but :shrug:
 

cws3030

Footballguy
Hmmm...those are good points.

Seems obvious to me now that the NFL would already baseline the Vert. Why didn't I figure that out before I did all the stat work? :wall:
Ahhh, don't sweat it.I was just happy to see some statistical analysis for the football site that prides itself in looking at things by the numbers.

Anyway, the intial assumption was flawed but the effort was good.

I'm still going on the premise that it's a RULE-OUT criteria - with the "bar" set at 34".

If an RB has a VJ less than 34" the chances of him reaching elite/Top10 RB status in his career is very low. If the Vertical jump is over 34", then the RB makes it into the film room for further analysis.
That's what it looks like. I was hoping to come up with something more concrete, but :shrug:
great research here... are there broad jump(hang-time) numbers from last year anywhere. i like to look at the broad combined with the vertical. you can really then get a sense of how the guy can jump. it be great to see the 40-Cone-Vertical-Broad all in one place.

looking at this years #'s Norwood physical stats are very impressive (vert+broad+cones). Addai's jumping #'s are great, but seems a tad slower on the cones.

 

Couch Potato

Footballguy
Hmmm...those are good points.

Seems obvious to me now that the NFL would already baseline the Vert. Why didn't I figure that out before I did all the stat work? :wall:
You were working with a Jump to Conclusions mat? :shrug:
 

ConstruxBoy

Kate's Daddy
Hmmm...those are good points.

Seems obvious to me now that the NFL would already baseline the Vert. Why didn't I figure that out before I did all the stat work? :wall:
You were working with a Jump to Conclusions mat? :shrug:
Damn his wife coming home and stopping him from committing suicide! That mat was my worst purchase evah!
 
Hmmm...those are good points.

Seems obvious to me now that the NFL would already baseline the Vert. Why didn't I figure that out before I did all the stat work? :wall:
Ahhh, don't sweat it.I was just happy to see some statistical analysis for the football site that prides itself in looking at things by the numbers.

Anyway, the intial assumption was flawed but the effort was good.

I'm still going on the premise that it's a RULE-OUT criteria - with the "bar" set at 34".

If an RB has a VJ less than 34" the chances of him reaching elite/Top10 RB status in his career is very low. If the Vertical jump is over 34", then the RB makes it into the film room for further analysis.
That's what it looks like. I was hoping to come up with something more concrete, but :shrug:
great research here... are there broad jump(hang-time) numbers from last year anywhere. i like to look at the broad combined with the vertical. you can really then get a sense of how the guy can jump. it be great to see the 40-Cone-Vertical-Broad all in one place.

looking at this years #'s Norwood physical stats are very impressive (vert+broad+cones). Addai's jumping #'s are great, but seems a tad slower on the cones.
Here's the 2006 CombineProblem is, not all the RBs run. You've got to do some sleuthing to get EVERYONE all into one place....

 

EBF

Footballguy
Height might not be an asset in the vertical leap, but it seems to play a large role in the broad jump. That's why I'm impressed when little guys like Julius Jones and DeAngelo Williams can hit over 10'. It shows you that they have some pop in their legs.

 

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