according to what I was told, the article was premium content from ESPN.comif that's not accurate, I can always bring the posts back.
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Ryan Howard signs 5-year, $125 million deal (1 Viewer)
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Guest
Guest
Ok. But what you deleted wasn't premium content then.I'm just trying to figure out what to post and what not to.
then how come when I try to read the article at ESPN.com, I get this message:The following content is exclusive to ESPN Insiders
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Guest
Guest
Maybe we're talking about different things. I thought this was directed at the chart I posted of his comps from baseball reference.
Oh, you're talking about the Keith Law article. Yah. I don't know where that came from. Someone else put it up.
Oh, you're talking about the Keith Law article. Yah. I don't know where that came from. Someone else put it up.
I deleted the Keith Law article and all posts that quoted it in full.
Billy Bats
Footballguy
Then what do you think he would get at that point, hypothetically of course. Should the best power hitter in the game expect to take a pay cut, or a 1-2 year contract? And why wouldn't the Yanks pay for the most prolific power hitter of his day to DH for them?
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Finless
Footballguy
3/65M
Finless
Footballguy
Michael Brown
Footballguy
Not sure if you guys noticed, but the Yankees have smartened up a bit in recent years in terms of giving money to aging veterans. The Giambi contract was signed in the winter of 2001...pretty sure that has no relevance on the matters of the offseason in 2012. They let Abreu, Damon, and Matsui walk in recent seasons and refused to give in to Pettitte on a one year deal over a few million dollars. No, they aren't suddenly thrifty but they're being smarter. Oh, and IN before the comments about Posada's contract a few years back...they were basically held hostage on that one since they hadn't developed a catcher in years.In addition, by the time Howard's contract would be ending, the Yanks would have already had to made a decision on whether Posada was going to be the DH by that point, if A-Rod was going to eventually be moved into the role, if Jeter was still able to handle SS or if HE had to be a DH down the line. Basically my point is, they couldn't tie up the DH position with one guy because they'd need the spot open for several of the guys they have now who'd be in their mid-late thirties.
I think if Howard's numbers remained reasonable to what they are now, in two years time he'd have gotten someone to maybe bite for a 4-year deal at $20 million per. And that's assuming he keeps driving in 140 and hitting 45 HR over the next few seasons (GMs will pay for RBIs no matter what the sabermetrics say about the stat). If, as history suggests, he'll tail off just a bit the next few years, enough GMs would give pause to giving out a 4-year deal to a guy already showing signs of decline. Maybe he still gets 4 years but for $72 mil. Or maybe only three years but they pay him $60. But on no planet would he have gotten 5/125.
I'm not going to say it's a bad deal, because if the Phillies feel they can budget for it then so be it. I just think it was an unnecessary one.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
No fishing. Only Ryan Howard and Babe Ruth have ever had 4 consecutive seasons of 45 HRs and 135 RBIs. Ruth did is 6 times in a row. Howard has a chance to break that record.You laugh but it really is an amazing feat. Look at Albert Pujols. He's been in the league 9 years and has hit 45 HRs only 3 times and gone over 135 RBIs twice.Look at ARod. In the league 14 full seasons. He's hit 45 HRs 5 times and 135 RBIs 3 times.Howard has been in the league 4 full seasons and has done both 4 times.Not sure what you're laughing at, but no player in history, other than Babe Ruth, has put up numbers like Ryan Howard in his first four years in the league.
pollardsvision
Footballguy
I just realized that the 5/125 figure includes the buyout for an option on a 6th season.
This bad deal has a cherry on top. When Howard is 37 years old (after the 5 years), the Phillies will have the option to either pay him $23 million for another season or pay him $10 million to not play. The 5/125 presumes the $10 mill. buyout of the 6th season (a good presumption).
It's really a 5 year, $115 million deal. We just all know that, in 2017, the Philiies will gladly give Ryan Howard $10 million to stay the hell away. It's like a marriage with the divorce settlement worked out beforehand.
Howard's agent: I tell you what, you can have Howard for the rock bottom price of 6 years, $128 million. What, you don't feel comfortable with that? How about, when Ryan can't turn on an 80 MPH fastball anymore, we only charge you $10 million for that season, to get him out of your hair?
I missed this part before. So, here's a belated
This bad deal has a cherry on top. When Howard is 37 years old (after the 5 years), the Phillies will have the option to either pay him $23 million for another season or pay him $10 million to not play. The 5/125 presumes the $10 mill. buyout of the 6th season (a good presumption).
It's really a 5 year, $115 million deal. We just all know that, in 2017, the Philiies will gladly give Ryan Howard $10 million to stay the hell away. It's like a marriage with the divorce settlement worked out beforehand.
Howard's agent: I tell you what, you can have Howard for the rock bottom price of 6 years, $128 million. What, you don't feel comfortable with that? How about, when Ryan can't turn on an 80 MPH fastball anymore, we only charge you $10 million for that season, to get him out of your hair?
I missed this part before. So, here's a belated
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And if those were the only two statistical categories of any relevance, you'd hear people insisting Howard was the best player since Babe Ruth since he's done something only Babe did before him. And yet, nobody in their right mind is suggesting that Howard is the best player at his position in the NL, much less the best player in all of baseball since Babe Ruth. That alone should provide some insight into how valuable all of those other categories you guys are intent on mocking actually are. When Babe signed his infamous contract, how many baseball people do you think said "Wow, if Babe's worth that, (some other baseball player) is worth twice that". I'm gonna say none. Yet several people have said that about Howard's deal. Howard's a phenomenal power hitter, but that's all he is. He's not a great hitter. He's an average defensive 1b. He strikes out at an alarming rate. He's struggles against left handed pitching. THOSE are the attributes that have people comparing him to Sexson and Vaughn. When you already don't hit for average and strike out at the rate he strikes out at, your margin for error is razor thin. He's had the luxury of hitting in the middle of a great lineup where he's never needed to consistently be the best hitter on his team. And he hasn't been. 2007-2009, Utley was a better hitter while playing a much more critical defensive position. In 2007, Utley and Rollins were better hitters. In 2006 it was Howard, but if you're going to talk about a dude in the same sentence as Babe Ruth, shouldn't be be the best player on his half of the infield on his own team more than 1 out of every 4 years?No fishing. Only Ryan Howard and Babe Ruth have ever had 4 consecutive seasons of 45 HRs and 135 RBIs. Ruth did is 6 times in a row. Howard has a chance to break that record.You laugh but it really is an amazing feat. Look at Albert Pujols. He's been in the league 9 years and has hit 45 HRs only 3 times and gone over 135 RBIs twice.Look at ARod. In the league 14 full seasons. He's hit 45 HRs 5 times and 135 RBIs 3 times.Howard has been in the league 4 full seasons and has done both 4 times.Not sure what you're laughing at, but no player in history, other than Babe Ruth, has put up numbers like Ryan Howard in his first four years in the league.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
What statistical categories are of relevance? Howard is THE BEST power hitter in the game today. And when all is said and done, will be considered one of the best power hitters to ever play the game. Utley and Rollins aren't nearly as good at driving in runs as Howard. Plus, Utley's career OBP is .380, Howard's is .374 so it's not like his strikeouts are really effecting his production. Utley's OPS+ is 130, Howards is 141. Teams put the shift on for Howard, not Utley. Howard is the most dangerous hitter in the Phillies lineup. Is Utley a better all around player, sure. But Utley may very well be the best secondbaseman to ever play the game. So saying he's better then Howard really isn't a slight on Howard. That's like saying Lou Gehrig stinks because he wasn't the best player on his team.And if those were the only two statistical categories of any relevance, you'd hear people insisting Howard was the best player since Babe Ruth since he's done something only Babe did before him. And yet, nobody in their right mind is suggesting that Howard is the best player at his position in the NL, much less the best player in all of baseball since Babe Ruth. That alone should provide some insight into how valuable all of those other categories you guys are intent on mocking actually are. When Babe signed his infamous contract, how many baseball people do you think said "Wow, if Babe's worth that, (some other baseball player) is worth twice that". I'm gonna say none. Yet several people have said that about Howard's deal. Howard's a phenomenal power hitter, but that's all he is. He's not a great hitter. He's an average defensive 1b. He strikes out at an alarming rate. He's struggles against left handed pitching. THOSE are the attributes that have people comparing him to Sexson and Vaughn. When you already don't hit for average and strike out at the rate he strikes out at, your margin for error is razor thin. He's had the luxury of hitting in the middle of a great lineup where he's never needed to consistently be the best hitter on his team. And he hasn't been. 2007-2009, Utley was a better hitter while playing a much more critical defensive position. In 2007, Utley and Rollins were better hitters. In 2006 it was Howard, but if you're going to talk about a dude in the same sentence as Babe Ruth, shouldn't be be the best player on his half of the infield on his own team more than 1 out of every 4 years?No fishing. Only Ryan Howard and Babe Ruth have ever had 4 consecutive seasons of 45 HRs and 135 RBIs. Ruth did is 6 times in a row. Howard has a chance to break that record.You laugh but it really is an amazing feat. Look at Albert Pujols. He's been in the league 9 years and has hit 45 HRs only 3 times and gone over 135 RBIs twice.Look at ARod. In the league 14 full seasons. He's hit 45 HRs 5 times and 135 RBIs 3 times.Howard has been in the league 4 full seasons and has done both 4 times.Not sure what you're laughing at, but no player in history, other than Babe Ruth, has put up numbers like Ryan Howard in his first four years in the league.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Time will tell if Howard ends up the BEST power hitter this year (let alone 4 or 5 years down the road). Do Phillies fans not worry at all that Howard's decline in power may have already started?
Eephus
Footballguy
It's hard to find data to support his power decline. Howard's HR numbers have been remarkably consistent. The regression has been in other areas: BABIP as teams play the shift against him and K/BB rates.Bill James' favorite toy projects him as having a 31% chance of reaching 600 HRs, which is amazing since he didn't become a MLB regular until age 26.
I look at all of the available data, not just the categories I like. For instance....1) Ryan Howard strikes out a ton - 27.5% of his career plate appearances have resulted in U-turns to the dugout. Utley is markedly better at less than 16%.What statistical categories are of relevance? Howard is THE BEST power hitter in the game today. And when all is said and done, will be considered one of the best power hitters to ever play the game. Utley and Rollins aren't nearly as good at driving in runs as Howard. Plus, Utley's career OBP is .380, Howard's is .374 so it's not like his strikeouts are really effecting his production. Utley's OPS+ is 130, Howards is 141. Teams put the shift on for Howard, not Utley. Howard is the most dangerous hitter in the Phillies lineup. Is Utley a better all around player, sure. But Utley may very well be the best secondbaseman to ever play the game. So saying he's better then Howard really isn't a slight on Howard. That's like saying Lou Gehrig stinks because he wasn't the best player on his team.And if those were the only two statistical categories of any relevance, you'd hear people insisting Howard was the best player since Babe Ruth since he's done something only Babe did before him. And yet, nobody in their right mind is suggesting that Howard is the best player at his position in the NL, much less the best player in all of baseball since Babe Ruth. That alone should provide some insight into how valuable all of those other categories you guys are intent on mocking actually are. When Babe signed his infamous contract, how many baseball people do you think said "Wow, if Babe's worth that, (some other baseball player) is worth twice that". I'm gonna say none. Yet several people have said that about Howard's deal. Howard's a phenomenal power hitter, but that's all he is. He's not a great hitter. He's an average defensive 1b. He strikes out at an alarming rate. He's struggles against left handed pitching. THOSE are the attributes that have people comparing him to Sexson and Vaughn. When you already don't hit for average and strike out at the rate he strikes out at, your margin for error is razor thin. He's had the luxury of hitting in the middle of a great lineup where he's never needed to consistently be the best hitter on his team. And he hasn't been. 2007-2009, Utley was a better hitter while playing a much more critical defensive position. In 2007, Utley and Rollins were better hitters. In 2006 it was Howard, but if you're going to talk about a dude in the same sentence as Babe Ruth, shouldn't be be the best player on his half of the infield on his own team more than 1 out of every 4 years?No fishing. Only Ryan Howard and Babe Ruth have ever had 4 consecutive seasons of 45 HRs and 135 RBIs. Ruth did is 6 times in a row. Howard has a chance to break that record.You laugh but it really is an amazing feat. Look at Albert Pujols. He's been in the league 9 years and has hit 45 HRs only 3 times and gone over 135 RBIs twice.Not sure what you're laughing at, but no player in history, other than Babe Ruth, has put up numbers like Ryan Howard in his first four years in the league.
Look at ARod. In the league 14 full seasons. He's hit 45 HRs 5 times and 135 RBIs 3 times.
Howard has been in the league 4 full seasons and has done both 4 times.
2) Ryan Howard can be neutralized by left handed pitching - his #'s (BA, OBP, Slg, OPS) drop by 30% across the board against lefties - while Utley hits left handed and right handed pitchers with near identical success.
3) Ryan Howard is susceptible to being overpowered. His numbers drop precipitously against power pitchers while again Utley hits everyone equally.
4) Ryan Howard's performance is declining, Utley's is not. Since 2006, Howard's BA, OBP, Slg, OPS have all trended down while Utley's have remained consistent.
And that doesn't even take into account Utley being an elite defensive player at a critical position compared to Howard being average at a far less critical position.
As for RBI's, Howard hits in the 4 hole and benefits from having players - namely Utley - on base in front of him.
And you're right. Strikeouts aren't hurting Howard's counting numbers yet. But they always catch up to players as they age.
How about this - You have a 2 run lead, bottom 9, 2 out, runners on 1rst and 2nd. You've a complete MLB pullben at your disposal, and the next two hitters are Chase Utley and Ryan Howard. You get to pick which order they come to the plate in. 9 out of 10 managers would pick Howard, because there's a good chance he'll strike out, especially if you've a left handed power pitcher in the bullpen. Do whatever you like - lefty, righty, junker or power - you cannot gain an advantage over Utley.
Again, I'm not saying Howard's a bum - he's a helluva player. He's also now wearing the weight of what very well could be one of baseball's worst contracts in a few years.
Right, his power isn't declining yet, but the other numbers including strike out rate and BABIP suggest that they will start declining sooner rather than later.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Against LHP, his power numbers have been gradually declining since 2006.
the moops
Footballguy
Players who had a higher SLG% than Howard in 2009.Pujols, Fielder, Mauer, Lee.Players who had a higher SLG% than Howard in 2008.Pujols, Ramirez, Ludwick, Jones, Rodriguez, Quentin, Youkilis, Berkman, Bradley, BraunPlayers who had a higher SLG% than Howard in 2007.Rodriguez, Pena, Ortiz, Braun, Fielder, Holiday, Jones, Ordonez.In 2006, he was behind only Pujols.You would think that THE BEST power hitter in the game, would at least top the list of players in a couple of years. He definitely wouldnt be out of the top ten in 2008, or barely crack the top ten in 2007.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
SLG% is not the end all be all of power.the moops said:
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Guest
Guest
Either is Ryan Howard.
shadyridr
Footballguy
I kind of agree with this. Someone who hits alot of 3Bs would have a high SLG % but that doesnt mean hes a power hitter. Someone who hits alot of 2Bs could be a line drive hitter or have warning track power. IMO Howard is one of the best power hitters in the game and that means HRs.
dparker713
Footballguy
ISO is generally the easiest way to measure power.
G
Guest
Guest
Ironically, Howard just hit a double because he knocked one off of the top of the wall.
But he's already got a HR today against a power pitcher, so clearly stats are useless.
pollardsvision
Footballguy
In '09, he was behind Pujols and Pena.08: Pujols, tied with Ludwick07: Pena, Arod, Prince06: Hafner, PapiFor whatever any of that's worth. (It's the fangraphs formula and I don't know if they use the PECOTA formula that equally values doubles and triples or not).
E-A-G-L-E-S
Footballguy
What statistical categories are of relevance?
Howard is THE BEST power hitter in the game today. And when all is said and done, will be considered one of the best power hitters to ever play the game. Utley and Rollins aren't nearly as good at driving in runs as Howard. Plus, Utley's career OBP is .380, Howard's is .374 so it's not like his strikeouts are really effecting his production. Utley's OPS+ is 130, Howards is 141. Teams put the shift on for Howard, not Utley. Howard is the most dangerous hitter in the Phillies lineup. Is Utley a better all around player, sure. But Utley may very well be the best secondbaseman to ever play the game. So saying he's better then Howard really isn't a slight on Howard. That's like saying Lou Gehrig stinks because he wasn't the best player on his team.
I look at all of the available data, not just the categories I like. For instance....
1) Ryan Howard strikes out a ton - 27.5% of his career plate appearances have resulted in U-turns to the dugout. Utley is markedly better at less than 16%.
2) Ryan Howard can be neutralized by left handed pitching - his #'s (BA, OBP, Slg, OPS) drop by 30% across the board against lefties - while Utley hits left handed and right handed pitchers with near identical success.
3) Ryan Howard is susceptible to being overpowered. His numbers drop precipitously against power pitchers while again Utley hits everyone equally.
4) Ryan Howard's performance is declining, Utley's is not. Since 2006, Howard's BA, OBP, Slg, OPS have all trended down while Utley's have remained consistent.
And that doesn't even take into account Utley being an elite defensive player at a critical position compared to Howard being average at a far less critical position.
As for RBI's, Howard hits in the 4 hole and benefits from having players - namely Utley - on base in front of him.
And you're right. Strikeouts aren't hurting Howard's counting numbers yet. But they always catch up to players as they age.
How about this - You have a 2 run lead, bottom 9, 2 out, runners on 1rst and 2nd. You've a complete MLB pullben at your disposal, and the next two hitters are Chase Utley and Ryan Howard. You get to pick which order they come to the plate in. 9 out of 10 managers would pick Howard, because there's a good chance he'll strike out, especially if you've a left handed power pitcher in the bullpen. Do whatever you like - lefty, righty, junker or power - you cannot gain an advantage over Utley.
Again, I'm not saying Howard's a bum - he's a helluva player. He's also now wearing the weight of what very well could be one of baseball's worst contracts in a few years.
I don't know if Utley is an elite defensive second baseman. He was avg when he came up and has improved and is good, but don't think he is "elite" defensively.
By the way Howard has a HR and 2b off Lincecum so far today
Too bad Hamels just gave up a bad inning 
Where doe the steroid factor come in when talking about Fat Papi, Vaugn, Sexon, Cecil Fielder, etc. The juice would skew the careers of those that useds them from in their prime to their later years. Obviously Papi was a big benefactor of the needle. Avg with the Twins, elite on the juice in Boston, now stinks off the drugs. Howard, has never tested positive, so does that have any future effect on his sabermetric status
Howard is THE BEST power hitter in the game today. And when all is said and done, will be considered one of the best power hitters to ever play the game. Utley and Rollins aren't nearly as good at driving in runs as Howard. Plus, Utley's career OBP is .380, Howard's is .374 so it's not like his strikeouts are really effecting his production. Utley's OPS+ is 130, Howards is 141. Teams put the shift on for Howard, not Utley. Howard is the most dangerous hitter in the Phillies lineup. Is Utley a better all around player, sure. But Utley may very well be the best secondbaseman to ever play the game. So saying he's better then Howard really isn't a slight on Howard. That's like saying Lou Gehrig stinks because he wasn't the best player on his team.
I look at all of the available data, not just the categories I like. For instance....
1) Ryan Howard strikes out a ton - 27.5% of his career plate appearances have resulted in U-turns to the dugout. Utley is markedly better at less than 16%.
2) Ryan Howard can be neutralized by left handed pitching - his #'s (BA, OBP, Slg, OPS) drop by 30% across the board against lefties - while Utley hits left handed and right handed pitchers with near identical success.
3) Ryan Howard is susceptible to being overpowered. His numbers drop precipitously against power pitchers while again Utley hits everyone equally.
4) Ryan Howard's performance is declining, Utley's is not. Since 2006, Howard's BA, OBP, Slg, OPS have all trended down while Utley's have remained consistent.
And that doesn't even take into account Utley being an elite defensive player at a critical position compared to Howard being average at a far less critical position.
As for RBI's, Howard hits in the 4 hole and benefits from having players - namely Utley - on base in front of him.
And you're right. Strikeouts aren't hurting Howard's counting numbers yet. But they always catch up to players as they age.
How about this - You have a 2 run lead, bottom 9, 2 out, runners on 1rst and 2nd. You've a complete MLB pullben at your disposal, and the next two hitters are Chase Utley and Ryan Howard. You get to pick which order they come to the plate in. 9 out of 10 managers would pick Howard, because there's a good chance he'll strike out, especially if you've a left handed power pitcher in the bullpen. Do whatever you like - lefty, righty, junker or power - you cannot gain an advantage over Utley.
Again, I'm not saying Howard's a bum - he's a helluva player. He's also now wearing the weight of what very well could be one of baseball's worst contracts in a few years.
I don't know if Utley is an elite defensive second baseman. He was avg when he came up and has improved and is good, but don't think he is "elite" defensively.
By the way Howard has a HR and 2b off Lincecum so far today
Too bad Hamels just gave up a bad inning Where doe the steroid factor come in when talking about Fat Papi, Vaugn, Sexon, Cecil Fielder, etc. The juice would skew the careers of those that useds them from in their prime to their later years. Obviously Papi was a big benefactor of the needle. Avg with the Twins, elite on the juice in Boston, now stinks off the drugs. Howard, has never tested positive, so does that have any future effect on his sabermetric status
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dparker713
Footballguy
ISO is just SLG minus BA
pollardsvision
Footballguy
Speaking of Utley, that's another bad part of this deal. I think Utley makes a fine 2B now. Some, like EAGLES, say he's not great.
Either way, at 31, it's to be expected that he'll becoming a liability as a 2B sometime down the road.
I think the best long-term 1B option for the the Phillies could be Utley himself. Phillies just took that option off the table.
If I'm the Phillies, there's only one hitter I keep until he completely falls apart and that's Utley. With his focus, I could see him being productive at a pretty old age. Having the Utley to 1B option would've been very nice to have.
Either way, at 31, it's to be expected that he'll becoming a liability as a 2B sometime down the road.
I think the best long-term 1B option for the the Phillies could be Utley himself. Phillies just took that option off the table.
If I'm the Phillies, there's only one hitter I keep until he completely falls apart and that's Utley. With his focus, I could see him being productive at a pretty old age. Having the Utley to 1B option would've been very nice to have.
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dparker713
Footballguy
Vaughn, Sexon, Fielder and pretty much everyone else that has been mentioned as comps OTHER than Ortiz has never tested positive either. Complete red herring.I don't know if Utley is an elite defensive second baseman. He was avg when he came up and has improved and is good, but don't think he is "elite" defensively. By the way Howard has a HR and 2b off Lincecum so far todayToo bad Hamels just gave up a bad inning
Where doe the steroid factor come in when talking about Fat Papi, Vaugn, Sexon, Cecil Fielder, etc. The juice would skew the careers of those that useds them from in their prime to their later years. Obviously Papi was a big benefactor of the needle. Avg with the Twins, elite on the juice in Boston, now stinks off the drugs. Howard, has never tested positive, so does that have any future effect on his sabermetric status
the moops
Footballguy
He has been consistently a top 3 defensive 2nd baseman since 2005. He is the very definition of elite defensively. UZR and fielding bible both agree with this sentiment.
Domination
Footballguy
Just 2 quick points....
1) What does Utley's stats have anything to do with Howard?
They are completely different players. Howard is a power hitter, while Utley is more of an all around player. The only players that should be compared to Howard are his piers...Arod, Pujols, Prince, etc., but if you used them as a comparison, you would lose your arguement, because Howard's power numbers would dwarf all of them. Pujols is a better player, but Howard is a better HR guy.
2) Utley benefits from having Howard hitting behind him.
You can argue all day long about Utley being a better hitter. The fact is is sees alot of pitches because of pitchers being afraid of pitching to Howard. Werth is an even better example of this, and that is why he will leave and get a contract like Rowand did, just to find out that his numbers were to to playing in this lineup behind Howard. If the game is on the line, pitchers would be much more apt to take their chances with Werth or Utley and give up a hit rather than with Howard, because he has a much better chance of it going out of the park on them.
1) What does Utley's stats have anything to do with Howard?
They are completely different players. Howard is a power hitter, while Utley is more of an all around player. The only players that should be compared to Howard are his piers...Arod, Pujols, Prince, etc., but if you used them as a comparison, you would lose your arguement, because Howard's power numbers would dwarf all of them. Pujols is a better player, but Howard is a better HR guy.
2) Utley benefits from having Howard hitting behind him.
You can argue all day long about Utley being a better hitter. The fact is is sees alot of pitches because of pitchers being afraid of pitching to Howard. Werth is an even better example of this, and that is why he will leave and get a contract like Rowand did, just to find out that his numbers were to to playing in this lineup behind Howard. If the game is on the line, pitchers would be much more apt to take their chances with Werth or Utley and give up a hit rather than with Howard, because he has a much better chance of it going out of the park on them.
E-A-G-L-E-S
Footballguy
They also were not testing when alot of those guys were playingVaughn, Sexon, Fielder and pretty much everyone else that has been mentioned as comps OTHER than Ortiz has never tested positive either. Complete red herring.I don't know if Utley is an elite defensive second baseman. He was avg when he came up and has improved and is good, but don't think he is "elite" defensively. By the way Howard has a HR and 2b off Lincecum so far todayToo bad Hamels just gave up a bad inning
pollardsvision
Footballguy
Not if it's a left-handed pitcher, which is what they'll almost always see if the game is on the line. Against lefties, their HR rates are almost identical and Utley hits about 80 points higher.
the moops
Footballguy
Michael Brown
Footballguy
Not sure what you're trying to say here. Dave Kingman was a better HR guy than Rod Carew. Since Howard tries to hit a HR every pitch that somehow makes him a better HR guy? I'd be inclined to think that if Pujols was willing to sacrifice 80 points off his batting average, he could easily hit 60 HR per season. Hell, Mauer could top 40 if he became a .270 hitter. When you're a great hitter, you're a great hitter. The latter two are much more controlled hitters, so they combine good power/BA numbers.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
You lost me at point # 1. The most recent season, both Pujols and Fielder had more HRs in less at bats. Mark Reynolds and Carlos Pena had more HRs per at bat than Howard. How does Howard "dwarf" all of them in terms of power? Lets not even mention how bad Howard is against lefties. He's on the decline whether you want to believe it or not. The only people that can't (or don't want to) see this are Phils fans.
shadyridr
Footballguy
This is horrible
shadyridr
Footballguy
Mark Reynolds is a better HR guy than David Wright. Who cares? His argument is laughable.
igbomb
Footballguy
There's a whole lot of wrong in this post.Regarding Howard's power, I think the claim that he is the preemininent power hitter in baseball is a very defensible one. But suggesting that he is far above all others is simply not true.Over the last three years, Howard is tied with Carlos Pena for the highest ISO in baseball, a measure of a hitter's power. And Pujols is right behind them. Best power hitter in baseball? Maybe. Dwarfing all others? Not a chance.And the argument that Utley is who he is because of Howard is ridiculous. In fact, I think it's at least equally as valid an argument that Howard gets the RBIs he does because of having a player like Utley hitting in front of him. Thus, the entire purpose of measures like wOBA are to separate out the impact of teammates on a player's performance. And by wOBA, Howard was the second best player on his team and the 19th in baseball.
G
Guest
Guest
I'm just trying to imagine ARod standing in the water next to a dock with Ryan Howard's boat tied to his body.This is horrible
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
Do we even know if Howard has a boat?
Eephus
Footballguy
borderline candidate for the freakishly tall ballplayer hall of fame
Domination
Footballguy
Yes my spelling was wrong, but my premise was not. 4 Year Totals
Pujols- 165 HR, 491 RBIs
Arod- 154 HR, 491 RBIs
Prince- 158 HR, 443 RBIs
Pena- 116 HRs, 323 RBIs (3 yrs)
Howard- 198 HR, 577 RBIs
That is 33 HRs and 86 RBIs more than his closest competition. While is average might be lower, and he will strike out more than most, his numbers speak for themselves. If you want to say that he has not lead the league any 1 year, that is fine. But it is his consistancy that makes him the elite player that he is.
LMAO at the idea of Mauer being compared to Howard. He has hit more than 13 HRs only once, and that was last year with 28. He is back to normal this year, with 1.
You guys are acting like premier power hitters grow on trees. Howard stands in a class by himself.
I expect Howard's numbers to decrease by the end of his contract. The same can be said about Arod, and Pujols (after he signs next deal) at the end of their respective contracts. Pujols is the ONLY player in baseball that I would trade straight up for Howard, but his back issues scare me.
pollardsvision
Footballguy
Hard to deny those numbers. Howard's contract is fascinating because 2 things are probably true:Yes my spelling was wrong, but my premise was not. 4 Year TotalsThis is horrible
Pujols- 165 HR, 491 RBIs
Arod- 154 HR, 491 RBIs
Prince- 158 HR, 443 RBIs
Pena- 116 HRs, 323 RBIs (3 yrs)
Howard- 198 HR, 577 RBIs
That is 33 HRs and 86 RBIs more than his closest competition. While is average might be lower, and he will strike out more than most, his numbers speak for themselves. If you want to say that he has not lead the league any 1 year, that is fine. But it is his consistancy that makes him the elite player that he is.
LMAO at the idea of Mauer being compared to Howard. He has hit more than 13 HRs only once, and that was last year with 28. He is back to normal this year, with 1.
You guys are acting like premier power hitters grow on trees. Howard stands in a class by himself.
I expect Howard's numbers to decrease by the end of his contract. The same can be said about Arod, and Pujols (after he signs next deal) at the end of their respective contracts. Pujols is the ONLY player in baseball that I would trade straight up for Howard, but his back issues scare me.
1-Howard is the best power hitter in the game.
2-This is still a bad contract.
I don't think anyone would have a problem with the Phillies paying $25 mill./year for a good guy who will hit 45+ HRs and drive in 135+ runs each year.
But the problem is the timing more than the numbers. The 5-6 year extension doesn't even begin until he's 32 years old, which, for the vast majority of players, signifies the end of their prime (especially if PEDs are really making their way out of the game). The end of Howard's prime could very well already be here, and the monster contract doesn't even begin for another 2 seasons. The fact that there was absolutely no need to even think about an extension for another year and a half makes this extension insane.
Phillies did a disservice to the team and to Howard (other than making him filthy rich). He could have left Philly a hero at the age of 32. Now he'll be despised for years to come as the team struggles to recover from this contract.
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igbomb
Footballguy
Phillies fans kill me.Yes my spelling was wrong, but my premise was not. 4 Year Totals
Pujols- 165 HR, 491 RBIs
Arod- 154 HR, 491 RBIs
Prince- 158 HR, 443 RBIs
Pena- 116 HRs, 323 RBIs (3 yrs)
Howard- 198 HR, 577 RBIs
That is 33 HRs and 86 RBIs more than his closest competition. While is average might be lower, and he will strike out more than most, his numbers speak for themselves. If you want to say that he has not lead the league any 1 year, that is fine. But it is his consistancy that makes him the elite player that he is.
LMAO at the idea of Mauer being compared to Howard. He has hit more than 13 HRs only once, and that was last year with 28. He is back to normal this year, with 1.
You guys are acting like premier power hitters grow on trees. Howard stands in a class by himself.
I expect Howard's numbers to decrease by the end of his contract. The same can be said about Arod, and Pujols (after he signs next deal) at the end of their respective contracts. Pujols is the ONLY player in baseball that I would trade straight up for Howard, but his back issues scare me.
I can just imagine the Cardinals calling the Phils offering Pujols straight up and the GM stressing about Pujols back issues.Delusional.
