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Shanahan - SO overrated (1 Viewer)

Judge Smails

Footballguy
This guy is the most overhyped genius in the history of football. He gets a decade long hall pass because Elway wins him Superbowls. The world has caught up to him offensively, and his teams, with decent talent, are getting blow out WAY too often. I'd rank him with Marvin Lewis in terms of getting the least out of his team than any coach in the league. (Too early to say that about Norv in SD). How many times has he stood there with a blank stare at post game press conferences this year talking about the other coach doing a much better job than he did preparing their football teams? No, he's not trying to fall on his sword for his team - he's absolutely right. Zero passion and extremely soft. That is Bronco football.

 
Right on Judge Smails. And a hundred bucks you miss that putt. : )

 
I've had time to breathe. Might have been a little harsh. But no conference championships and 1 divisional championship since 1998 - so it's not like he's been the second coming the past 8 years. He's had a good run, but I think even diehard Bronco fans have to be questioning his ability to motivate a team to play hard week in and week out. So many blowouts.

 
This guy is the most overhyped genius in the history of football. He gets a decade long hall pass because Elway Terrell Davis wins him and John Elway Superbowls. The world has caught up to him offensively, and his teams, with decent talent, are getting blow out WAY too often. I'd rank him with Marvin Lewis in terms of getting the least out of his team than any coach in the league. (Too early to say that about Norv in SD). How many times has he stood there with a blank stare at post game press conferences this year talking about the other coach doing a much better job than he did preparing their football teams? No, he's not trying to fall on his sword for his team - he's absolutely right. Zero passion and extremely soft. That is Bronco football.
:fixed
 
I love his scheme though. It's really tough to play against if it's executed well. Zone block, stretch play, one cut and go, naked bootlegs, and PA bootleg.

 
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The lack of a really good QB is the biggest reason for the Broncos not getting deep into the playoffs more than once since Elway's retirement. But Jay Cutler looks like a winner, so the Broncos are a team on the rise, despite their disappointing season. They just need a lot of help on the defensive side of the ball. Playing in the tough AFC this decade hasn't helped, either. However, Shanahan did get the Broncos to the AFC title game two years ago, with JAKE PLUMMER at QB!

And, remember, this is Shanahan's 13th year in Denver, and assuming they finish under .500, this will only his 2nd losing season. 2 losing seasons in 13 years. Yeah, he is just terrible. :wall:

 
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And, remember, this is Shanahan's 13th year in Denver, and assuming they finish under .500, this will only his 2nd losing season. 2 losing seasons in 13 years. Yeah, he is just terrible. :lmao:
:shrug: A lot of franchises would kill for that kind of consistency.
 
Im not looking to hammer Shanahan here, but he's looking a little like Bill Cowher to me right now. That is, a little burnt out and ready to either retire or take a break. As a coach, I still think he's one of the best. As a personnel guy and organizational decision maker, he's definitely NOT getting it done. And lately here, it seems painfully obvious to me he needs at the very least a break and a change of scenary. He's always been a good coach, but no coach is great without great players. He won a Superbowl with a QB many argue to be the greatest ever, a TE many argue to be the greatest ever, and a RB, who before injury, was getting ready to make a case for being amongst the greatest ever. And theyve had plenty of other very good players over the years, but you lose 3 guys like that, and you will seem human as a coach. Great players have long had a tendency to make coaches seem smarter than they actually are.

 
I think he hates fantasy football so much that tries to piss off the participates weekly. He needs to be medicated

Time for Shanny to get fired - New blood in Denver

 
I think he hates fantasy football so much that tries to piss off the participates weekly. He needs to be medicatedTime for Shanny to get fired - New blood in Denver
i think this thred is a littl over the top. shanny is a good coach. He will also NEVER be fired by the current owner. Ever.
 
BusterTBronco said:
Shanahan's biggest problem is that he is a poor judge of talent, both in the draft and the FA market. The Broncos have a few good players and whole lot o bad ones.
what up buster.The horrible drafts that the broncos had in consecutive years several years ago has finally caught up IMO. They have a bunch of old guys that are on the decline, and then a bunch of young guys who simply aren't ready (or capable) of carrying the load. You can fill some holes in FA, but you can't fill the number of holes the Broncos have. They have little depth at multiple positions (LB and WR), have had injuries at other positions (Nalen, Hamilton, Ekuban), and absolutely nobody along the d-line (dumervil is average and thomas, crowder, moss are rookies).
 
Fantasy wise he always pisses you off with his running backs. Last night he actually pissed me off with his kicking calls. He passed on a couple of times when elam could have attempted field goals in the 50-55 yard range. First time with a pooch and the others he went for it on 4th downs and never converted. this is kind of minor stuff but when its playoff time you start analizing kickers trying to squeeze out any extra points.

 
Fantasy wise he always pisses you off with his running backs. Last night he actually pissed me off with his kicking calls. He passed on a couple of times when elam could have attempted field goals in the 50-55 yard range. First time with a pooch and the others he went for it on 4th downs and never converted. this is kind of minor stuff but when its playoff time you start analizing kickers trying to squeeze out any extra points.
Elam can't kick anything over 50 yards any more. He barely made that 47 yarder he kicked.
 
Fantasy wise he always pisses you off with his running backs. Last night he actually pissed me off with his kicking calls. He passed on a couple of times when elam could have attempted field goals in the 50-55 yard range. First time with a pooch and the others he went for it on 4th downs and never converted. this is kind of minor stuff but when its playoff time you start analizing kickers trying to squeeze out any extra points.
Elam can't kick anything over 50 yards any more. He barely made that 47 yarder he kicked.
i saw him kick one in kc on tv a couple of weeks back.
 
Fantasy wise he always pisses you off with his running backs. Last night he actually pissed me off with his kicking calls. He passed on a couple of times when elam could have attempted field goals in the 50-55 yard range. First time with a pooch and the others he went for it on 4th downs and never converted. this is kind of minor stuff but when its playoff time you start analizing kickers trying to squeeze out any extra points.
Elam can't kick anything over 50 yards any more. He barely made that 47 yarder he kicked.
i saw him kick one in kc on tv a couple of weeks back.
With the wind at his back.
 
BusterTBronco said:
Shanahan's biggest problem is that he is a poor judge of talent, both in the draft and the FA market. The Broncos have a few good players and whole lot o bad ones.
You hit the nail on the head. Their recent drafts have, fortunately, looked a lot better. Cutler, Williams(RIP)/Paymah/Foxworth, Scheffler, Marshall, these guys are all contributing. I guess the jury is still out on the Moss/Crowder/Thomas D-line trifecta though.Many of the problems this season have been injuries (unavoidable) and inexperience. However, there are aspects that Shanahan should have to answer for: having the wrong personnel for Bates's scheme, and the continuing horrendous special teams play (which have been bad for years, and are my biggest source of ongoing frustration with the Broncos).I'm not ready to see Shanahan go, but I think asking whether it's time to strip him of personnel decisions is a valid question.Edit: this lie-detector stuff *has* to stop though. It's possibly illegal, and an total embarrassment.Off-topic: What the hell is wrong with Bailey? He looked like garbage last night, missing tackles, blowing coverage... is he hurt, or washed up? I'm leaning toward hurt, since he missed time early in the season. *crosses fingers*
 
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BusterTBronco said:
Shanahan's biggest problem is that he is a poor judge of talent, both in the draft and the FA market. The Broncos have a few good players and whole lot o bad ones.
You hit the nail on the head. Their recent drafts have, fortunately, looked a lot better. Cutler, Williams(RIP)/Paymah/Foxworth, Scheffler, Marshall, these guys are all contributing. I guess the jury is still out on the Moss/Crowder/Thomas D-line trifecta though.Many of the problems this season have been injuries (unavoidable) and inexperience. However, there are aspects that Shanahan should have to answer for: having the wrong personnel for Bates's scheme, and the continuing horrendous special teams play (which have been bad for years, and are my biggest source of ongoing frustration with the Broncos).I'm not ready to see Shanahan go, but I think asking whether it's time to strip him of personnel decisions is a valid question.Edit: this lie-detector stuff *has* to stop though. It's possibly illegal, and an total embarrassment.Off-topic: What the hell is wrong with Bailey? He looked like garbage last night, missing tackles, blowing coverage... is he hurt, or washed up? I'm leaning toward hurt, since he missed time early in the season. *crosses fingers*
Bailey has been hurt most of the season, but he is also suffering from a horrible run defense. He and Bly have to help so much that they aren't playing as well against the pass.
 
The lack of a really good QB is the biggest reason for the Broncos not getting deep into the playoffs more than once since Elway's retirement. But Jay Cutler looks like a winner, so the Broncos are a team on the rise, despite their disappointing season. They just need a lot of help on the defensive side of the ball. Playing in the tough AFC this decade hasn't helped, either. However, Shanahan did get the Broncos to the AFC title game two years ago, with JAKE PLUMMER at QB!

And, remember, this is Shanahan's 13th year in Denver, and assuming they finish under .500, this will only his 2nd losing season. 2 losing seasons in 13 years. Yeah, he is just terrible. :yes:
You know, when people used to say that about Cowher, us Steelers fans knew that most of the problem was the fact that in the playoffs, it was always shortcomings at the QB position that primarily led to losing. The thing is, Cowher still had teams regularly advance deep into the playoffs despite mediocre at best QB play. Shanahan hasn't been able to do that, and I don't understand why he's ever been viewed as anything but a solid head coach.Kinda makes me appreciate what Cowher did by making it to 5 AFC championships and 1 Super Bowl before reaching his 2nd Super Bowl and winning it.

And he did it with Neil O'Donnell, Kordell Stewart, Tommy Maddox, and Ben Roethlisberger as a rookie QB.

 
My only comment is that the Texans fans should be happy. Their OL was dominating Denver. When Ron Dayne can look good, the OL is dominant. Any of you that had Ahman Green should be disappointed because if he were healthy (I know a big if that won't probably happen again), he could have been carrying teams through the playoff game yesterday. A very good back could have compiled some serious numbers (20 - 140 and 1 or 2 TD's). There was a ton of room to run.

 
Before we write Shanahan off, let's consider what the Broncos have gone through since December of 2006:

* death of two players, including one starter

* New defensive coordinator trying to implement a completely different scheme

* rookie QB (ok, QB with <16 games experience)

* pre-season loss of Hamilton, Ekuban, Wilson, and Rod Smith

It's been a hell of an off-season - it's difficult to imagine a worse one, outside of some key FA acquisitions. honestly, I don't think many coaches could do better.

 
Judge Smails said:
General Tso said:
Right on Judge Smails. And a hundred bucks you miss that putt. : )
You're on - double or nothing
Rocco! Moose! Help the judge find his wallet.I would take Skeletor over all of these hacks and 'genius' coaches.BillickHerminatorNolan CamDel RioFoxCoughlinLoviethe idiot in Cincinnatithe idiot in MinnesotaMartzinelliTurnerwho'd I miss?
 
Judge Smails said:
General Tso said:
Right on Judge Smails. And a hundred bucks you miss that putt. : )
You're on - double or nothing
Rocco! Moose! Help the judge find his wallet.I would take Skeletor over all of these hacks and 'genius' coaches.BillickHerminatorNolan CamDel RioFoxCoughlinLoviethe idiot in Cincinnatithe idiot in MinnesotaMartzinelliTurnerwho'd I miss?
GrudenKiffenTomlinManginiPhillips...basically anyone not named Belichick or Dungy.
 
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It's been said before, but Shanahan is responsible for:

a) Coaching John Elway to every single one of his playoff victories. (Shanahan was a Denver offensive coach -- most commonly coordinator -- or head coach of the Broncos every time Elway won a playoff game.)

b) The greatest offense in the history of the San Francisco 49ers, as the 1992-1994 Niners led the league in yards and points scored for three straight years. The only team to do that since is the 1999-2001 Rams.

c) Leading the Denver Broncos to the AFC Championship game with Jake Plummer at QB.

Shanahan is, in my opinion, an average talent evaluator. I would say that he's a pretty good game planner. But where he really has historically shined, in my opinion, is his in-game play calling. That's been a baffling weakness of the Broncos this season -- they seem to be unable to consistently attack weaknesses in the defense, and they aren't able to adjust to challenges ... and some of the borderline calls (such as 3rd-and-short in the opponent's red zone, or going for it on 4th) have been really weird and have worked less often than I'd like to see.

I want to think this is a personnel issue that the Broncos brass will sort out over time. It looks like Cutler is the real deal for a long time, and seeing what Shanahan did for the careers of John Elway, Steve Young, Brian Griese, and Jake Plummer, I'd love to see the same impact on Cutler.

:shrug:

 
This guy is the most overhyped genius in the history of football. He gets a decade long hall pass because Elway wins him Superbowls. The world has caught up to him offensively, and his teams, with decent talent, are getting blow out WAY too often. I'd rank him with Marvin Lewis in terms of getting the least out of his team than any coach in the league. (Too early to say that about Norv in SD). How many times has he stood there with a blank stare at post game press conferences this year talking about the other coach doing a much better job than he did preparing their football teams? No, he's not trying to fall on his sword for his team - he's absolutely right. Zero passion and extremely soft. That is Bronco football.
fantasy football rules should be edited to include 'never, ever select a Denver RB'
 
I've had time to breathe. Might have been a little harsh. But no conference championships and 1 divisional championship since 1998 - so it's not like he's been the second coming the past 8 years. He's had a good run, but I think even diehard Bronco fans have to be questioning his ability to motivate a team to play hard week in and week out. So many blowouts.
Only teams with a better record than the Broncos since Elway retired are the Pats, Colts, Steelers, and Eagles. Not too shabby for a guy who can't evaluate talent and who has been passed by.Denver's an incredibly inconsistent team this year, but it's wrong to blame that on Shanahan. There isn't a single starter on the entire line right now who was playing in the same place 16 games ago (heck, Eric Pears is the only guy who was even playing in Denver 16 games ago). The #1 passing option, the guy he was tailoring the offense around, got lost for the season. His top 3 RBs are all battling injuries. His defensive coordinator implemented a scheme which clearly didn't work with the personnel he had, and the defensive line has been churning bodies for years. He lost his defensive captain unexpectedly in the offseason, and both of his starting safeties are among the 5 oldest in the entire NFL. Oh yeah, by the way, have I mentioned that his starting QB just got his 16th career start a couple of weeks ago, and two players died in the offseason? Yeah, the team has been incredibly inconsistent this season, posting some of the most impressive wins of the season mixed in among some of the most disgust-inspiring losses. According to Football Outsiders, Denver's the most inconsistant team of the DVOA era (currently dating back to 1996) by a significant margin... but are you really going to blame that all on Shanahan, or are you willing to acknowledge that the other factors might have played a tiny part in that, too?Shanahan takes a lot of knocks, and most of them aren't even close to fair. The guy has one losing season in a dozen years with Denver, and even that was "only" 6-10. Denver's the only team that hasn't had a top-10 draft pick during Shanahan's tenure. And for all the knocks about his personnel acumen, every trade he's made so far looks like a pretty good deal in retrospect, and is there anyone who doesn't think that his offense has all the makings of being one of the very best in the NFL? He looks like a genius for trading up for Cutler when he already had a very good QB on his roster (this was right after Jake Plummer was coming off of a season with the lowest INT% in the league where Denver went 13-3, remember). ESPN surveyed 5 "football people" who called Cutler the most promising young QB in the league, ahead of Romo, Roeth, and Palmer even. The Brandon Marshall draft pick looks great, and the Javon Walker trade looked great before Walker got hurt. The Henry signing was a bust, but Selvin Young looks great, Brandon Stokley looks awesome, and Daniel Graham's been solid (even if the team would have been better off with Kerney). Bailey and Bly are both studs, Lynch gave several good seasons to the franchise, and Dumervil is a stud in the making. There are some GAPING holes at Safety, Defensive Tackle, and Linebacker, but outside of that, this is not a team lacking in talent. I'm not saying that Bill Polian or Scott Pioli are shaking in their boots at the mention of Shanahan's name, but I think he has to at least be in the top 50% of GMs right now, and the top 5 among coaches.I remember when people were calling for Cowher's head after he went 6-10, too. How'd that one wind up playing out, again?
BusterTBronco said:
Shanahan's biggest problem is that he is a poor judge of talent, both in the draft and the FA market. The Broncos have a few good players and whole lot o bad ones.
what up buster.The horrible drafts that the broncos had in consecutive years several years ago has finally caught up IMO. They have a bunch of old guys that are on the decline, and then a bunch of young guys who simply aren't ready (or capable) of carrying the load. You can fill some holes in FA, but you can't fill the number of holes the Broncos have. They have little depth at multiple positions (LB and WR), have had injuries at other positions (Nalen, Hamilton, Ekuban), and absolutely nobody along the d-line (dumervil is average and thomas, crowder, moss are rookies).
There was a string of really bad drafts where the only quality players to come out were Portis and D.J. Williams, but the recent drafts have been money, and Shanahan's always been one of the best in the league at evaluating undrafted free agents. Also, Dumervil isn't average, Dumervil is a stud in the making. Dumervil is 8th in the league in sacks (just a half sack out of 4th), and unlike a lot of the players ahead of him, he isn't a total liability against the run. Every so often, Dumervil enters "beast mode" and gives a preview of things to come. His future is really, really bright.
 
If Shanahan only won the super bowl because of Elway, what does that make Dan Reeves and Wade Phillips?

 
BusterTBronco said:
Shanahan's biggest problem is that he is a poor judge of talent, both in the draft and the FA market. The Broncos have a few good players and whole lot o bad ones.
what up buster.The horrible drafts that the broncos had in consecutive years several years ago has finally caught up IMO. They have a bunch of old guys that are on the decline, and then a bunch of young guys who simply aren't ready (or capable) of carrying the load. You can fill some holes in FA, but you can't fill the number of holes the Broncos have. They have little depth at multiple positions (LB and WR), have had injuries at other positions (Nalen, Hamilton, Ekuban), and absolutely nobody along the d-line (dumervil is average and thomas, crowder, moss are rookies).
There was a string of really bad drafts where the only quality players to come out were Portis and D.J. Williams, but the recent drafts have been money, and Shanahan's always been one of the best in the league at evaluating undrafted free agents. Also, Dumervil isn't average, Dumervil is a stud in the making. Dumervil is 8th in the league in sacks (just a half sack out of 4th), and unlike a lot of the players ahead of him, he isn't a total liability against the run. Every so often, Dumervil enters "beast mode" and gives a preview of things to come. His future is really, really bright.
Like I said the consecutive bad years have finally caught up.How many undrafted free agents start for the Broncos?Dumervil is average right now. He can't hold the point of attack against the run (especially with piss poor OLB), but he is great in rushing the passer. IMO that makes him average. Doesn't mean he can't get better, which I think he will, but he needs to be more consistent and hold up better against the run.
 
BusterTBronco said:
His defensive coordinator implemented a scheme which clearly didn't work with the personnel he had, and the defensive line has been churning bodies for years. He lost his defensive captain unexpectedly in the offseason, and both of his starting safeties are among the 5 oldest in the entire NFL.
Which one of these things isn't Shanahan's fault again? Let's see, he made Coyer a scapegoat for last year's 9-7 season and brought in Bates to implement this scheme which, surprise, doesn't work with the personnel they have. The defensive line has been churning bodies for years because Shanahan cannot evaluate talent and keeps throwing new bodies at the problem in hope that someone will perform. Al Wilson was not lost unexpectedly in the off-season. The Broncos knew before the end of last season that his playing days were done. And the Broncos have old starting safeties because Shanahan has continually struck out whenever he tries to draft one.Did you use the words "Bly" and "stud" in the same sentence?Oh, and count me among those who think that the Denver offense does not have the makings of one of the very best in the NFL. 13 points vs Houston. Bye bye! You cannot have a great offense with a terrible offensive line.
The defensive line has been a joke, and this year the LB's aren't able to cover up for it. Heck towards the end of last year they weren't able to cover for it. Shanny finally started addressing the d-line through the draft, but IMO he needs to spend another pick at least in this draft and targeting a good DT in FA. None of these washed up nobodies that absolutely nobody wants (read ex-browns).Safety is hurting us, but Abdullah looks legit (despite his bad game against the Texans). The combo of trying to use Foxworth and Lynch is not working IMO. I wish they had third rounder last year and used it to pick up one of those solid safeties. Unfortunately safety is pretty week in this draft and the FA's aren't much better. I don't see this getting better without some kind of trade.If Bly didn't have to worry about helping defend the run so much I think he would be better, but it's hard to tell. Losing Nalen and Hamilton hurt, and it's painfully obvious that Lepsis hasn't recovered, and perhaps never will, from that second microfracture surgery. Pears is an absolute joke IMO at OT, and the fact that Harris hasn't started at all over him does not instill a lot of confidence in him. I'd really love us to target Jordan Gross at RT, and then focus on OT in the draft (probably the deepest position in the draft). I think our interior is good for the future. Myers, Kuper, and Holland have played well (Holland is probably our best lineman this year) and Myers and Kuper will only get better with time. And if Nalen or Hamilton should come back we are even better off as the young guys can provide some great competition (but I expect one if not both of them to retire).
 
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BusterTBronco said:
His defensive coordinator implemented a scheme which clearly didn't work with the personnel he had, and the defensive line has been churning bodies for years. He lost his defensive captain unexpectedly in the offseason, and both of his starting safeties are among the 5 oldest in the entire NFL.
Which one of these things isn't Shanahan's fault again? Let's see, he made Coyer a scapegoat for last year's 9-7 season and brought in Bates to implement this scheme which, surprise, doesn't work with the personnel they have. The defensive line has been churning bodies for years because Shanahan cannot evaluate talent and keeps throwing new bodies at the problem in hope that someone will perform. Al Wilson was not lost unexpectedly in the off-season. The Broncos knew before the end of last season that his playing days were done. And the Broncos have old starting safeties because Shanahan has continually struck out whenever he tries to draft one.Did you use the words "Bly" and "stud" in the same sentence?Oh, and count me among those who think that the Denver offense does not have the makings of one of the very best in the NFL. 13 points vs Houston. Bye bye! You cannot have a great offense with a terrible offensive line.
Coyer wasn't scapegoated for last year's 9-7 finish. Shanahan doesn't make people scapegoats, because he doesn't need to. Scapegoating is the art of shifting blame to save your own hide. Shanahan's hide has never once needed saving- his owner repeatedly calls him his "coach for life". Besides, look at how many coaches have actually been fired under Shanahan's tenure. The only ones I can remember are Alex Gibbs' son (for insubordination) and Larry Coyer. Shanahan fired Coyer because Coyer simply wasn't getting it done. He did great work in the offseason getting the team ready, but then he steadfastly refused to make ANY adjustments either in-game or in-season when it became abundantly clear that what he had wasn't working. The result was that Denver's defense looked better on paper than it really was because they were so awesome at the beginning of games and seasons that they padded their stats, but when it really mattered (i.e. at the end of the year or at the end of the games), they couldn't get it done.And yes, I used "Bly" and "stud" in the same sentence. He makes a lot of highlight reel bad plays, but the fact remains that according to Football Outsiders, Denver has the #4 defense in the league against opposing #1 and opposing #2 WRs (while being brutal across the board everywhere else on defense). Given how little help they've gotten from the rest of the defense, Bailey and Bly have been playing exceptionally well this season.You think part of the reason why the offensive line is playing so poorly is that there isn't a single player right now who was playing in the same place 16 games ago, and only one player who was even playing for Denver 16 games ago? You think that might, I don't know, have the teensiest tiniest impact on how the offensive line looks? Maybe, just maybe?
...the fact that Harris hasn't started at all over him does not instill a lot of confidence in him.
Rookie offensive linemen during Shanahan's tenure have combined to start one game. One. That was a start by George Foster in week 17 against Green Bay... in a game where Foster only started because Shanahan was resting pretty much all of his key starters. Harris not starting doesn't worry me in the slightest. Even the best offensive linemen in Denver wind up sitting for at least a year, sometimes two or three or four. Just look at Nalen, Lepsis, Hamilton, Neil, etc.
 
BusterTBronco said:
SSOG said:
Coyer wasn't scapegoated for last year's 9-7 finish. Shanahan doesn't make people scapegoats, because he doesn't need to.
:lmao: Just do a Google search on Shanahan + Scapegoat and you'll see how wrong you are. Shanahan's MO for the last 8 years has been to scapegoat someone whenever the team fails to meet expectations. Coyer did the best anyone could have done with the mediocre talent Shanahan gave him. Look at how well the Bucs D is doing this year. Coyer is one of the best defensive coordinators in the NFL.
Who else has he scapegoated?Coyer is a brilliant defensive mind, but he's not the coordinator for the Bucs. That'd be Monte Kiffin, a guy with a long history of productive defenses. Crediting Coyer instead of Kiffin is a bit silly.
 
He won a Superbowl with a QB many argue to be the greatest ever
Are there really that many people who think this?
Not a majority, but yes, there are many. The argument I always make is one of supporting cast. Take the list of QBs who have made 3 superbowls, and then tell me how many did it with a worse supporting cast than Elway had in the late 80s. Take Elway off of that 1986 Broncos squad and that might have been the worst superbowl team in NFL history. John Elway didn't get a head coach or supporting cast similar to Joe Montana's until the late 90s, and we all remember what he did with that. If he had Rod Smith and Terrell Davis to play Jerry Rice and Roger Craig for more than 3 seasons, he'd have 4 rings, too, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
 
Take Elway off of that 1986 Broncos squad and that might have been the worst superbowl team in NFL history.
It's a fairly easy conclusion to draw considering how they embarrassed themselves against the Giants in the Super Bowl, but that team did have Keith Bishop, Rulon Jones, Karl Mecklenburg, Dennis Smith, and Sammy Winder - all of whom made the Pro Bowl that year. In addition, they also had Mark Haynes, Tom Jackson, Greg Kragen, and Louis Wright - some of the better players at their positions in their day.Meanwhile, you could take Elway off of the '98 Broncos, and they still would have easily handled the out-matched Falcons.
 
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Despyzer said:
SSOG said:
Take Elway off of that 1986 Broncos squad and that might have been the worst superbowl team in NFL history.
It's a fairly easy conclusion to draw considering how they embarrassed themselves against the Giants in the Super Bowl, but that team did have Keith Bishop, Rulon Jones, Karl Mecklenburg, Dennis Smith, and Sammy Winder - all of whom made the Pro Bowl that year. In addition, they also had Mark Haynes, Tom Jackson, Greg Kragen, and Louis Wright - some of the better players at their positions in their day.

Meanwhile, you could take Elway off of the '98 Broncos, and they still would have easily handled the out-matched Falcons.
stepping a bit back from "all-pro", I see.
 
This guy is the most overhyped genius in the history of football. He gets a decade long hall pass because Elway wins him Superbowls. The world has caught up to him offensively, and his teams, with decent talent, are getting blow out WAY too often. I'd rank him with Marvin Lewis in terms of getting the least out of his team than any coach in the league. (Too early to say that about Norv in SD). How many times has he stood there with a blank stare at post game press conferences this year talking about the other coach doing a much better job than he did preparing their football teams? No, he's not trying to fall on his sword for his team - he's absolutely right. Zero passion and extremely soft. That is Bronco football.
Two corrections:Terrell Davis winning him Super Bowls...the team in not that talented, small scheming offensive line in a weak division.
 
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Despyzer said:
SSOG said:
Take Elway off of that 1986 Broncos squad and that might have been the worst superbowl team in NFL history.
It's a fairly easy conclusion to draw considering how they embarrassed themselves against the Giants in the Super Bowl, but that team did have Keith Bishop, Rulon Jones, Karl Mecklenburg, Dennis Smith, and Sammy Winder - all of whom made the Pro Bowl that year. In addition, they also had Mark Haynes, Tom Jackson, Greg Kragen, and Louis Wright - some of the better players at their positions in their day.Meanwhile, you could take Elway off of the '98 Broncos, and they still would have easily handled the out-matched Falcons.
The 1986 Denver Broncos were 21st in defense (out of 28 teams), so all those pro-bowlers on defense obviously weren't doing them much good. They only had two pro bowlers on offense outside of Elway- one of which was Keith Bishop ( :hot: ), and one of which was Sammy Winder... in a season where he got 789 yards rushing at 3.3 yards per carry ( :goodposting: ). I believe ESPN rated them as the third-worst SB team in history, and this is with Elway. It's not a stretch to say that losing Elway would cost them 2 spots.On the other hand, you'll get no argument at all that if Elway had gotten hurt in the AFCCG, then Bubby Brister would be a superbowl-winning QB right now. That 1998 squad was on autopilot, just rolling over people regardless of who was under center. Whenever I want to argue about how good Elway was, I go ahead and omit the four Shanahan years, because the most impressive parts of Elway's resume all came before that, rings or no rings.
 
BusterTBronco said:
SSOG said:
Take Elway off of that 1986 Broncos squad and that might have been the worst superbowl team in NFL history.
Take <insert name of star QB here> off of that squad and <insert team name here> might have been the worst superbowl tean in NFL history.You could say that about almost any team. It's an absurd argument.Also, which team was leading that superbowl at halftime?
No, you can't say that about almost any team. If you'd rather, how about this- take all of the QBs off of all of the SB squads and the 1986 Denver Broncos are probably the worst SB team of all time.
 
Despyzer said:
SSOG said:
Take Elway off of that 1986 Broncos squad and that might have been the worst superbowl team in NFL history.
It's a fairly easy conclusion to draw considering how they embarrassed themselves against the Giants in the Super Bowl, but that team did have Keith Bishop, Rulon Jones, Karl Mecklenburg, Dennis Smith, and Sammy Winder - all of whom made the Pro Bowl that year. In addition, they also had Mark Haynes, Tom Jackson, Greg Kragen, and Louis Wright - some of the better players at their positions in their day.

Meanwhile, you could take Elway off of the '98 Broncos, and they still would have easily handled the out-matched Falcons.
stepping a bit back from "all-pro", I see.
They weren't in 1986. At other points in their careers they were definitely All-Pro caliber players. You disagree?
 
BusterTBronco said:
No, you can't say that about almost any team.
Oh yes I can. How about the Miami Dolphins team without Dan Marino? How about the first 49ers superbowl team without Joe Montana? How about the New England Patriots without Tom Brady? How about the Green Bay Packers without Brett Favre? How about the Colts without Peyton Manning? Those would all be pretty terrible superbowl teams, if you ask me.
The 1984 Miami Dolphins had a better defense than the 1986 Denver Broncos (19th in yards and 7th in points for Miami, 21st in yards and 15th in points for Denver), and they had MUCH more offensive talent outside of Marino. Clayton/Duper/Nat Moore are MILES head of Mark Jackson/Vance Johnson/Steve Watson, and the only really good offensive lineman on the '86 Broncos was Bishop, while the '84 Dolphins had Ray Foster, Ed Newman, and Dwight Stevenson, who combined for 11 pro bowls. Oh yeah, and the Dolphins RBs accounted for 1892 yards on 450 carries (4.2 per carry) with 18 TDs between them, while the 1986 Denver Broncos RBs accounted for 1388 yards on 386 carries (3.6 per carry) with 16 TDs between them. Advantage: Miami.The first 49ers SB team had the #2 defense in the entire NFL in both points and yards. Denver, once again, was #21 in yards and #15 in points. No comparison whatsoever. The Green Bay Packers SB squad was 1st in points allowed and 1st in yards allowed to go with their 1st place finish in points scored. Take away Favre and that's STILL one of the best SB squads of all time. Not only is there no comparison whatsoever, but this one is a pretty ludicrous suggestion. I mean, the 1996 Green Bay Packers were DOMINANT on defense. The Colts without Peyton Manning still had Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Joseph Addai, an above-average defense, and one of the best offensive lines in the league. No comparison whatsoever. The New England Patriots without Tom Brady would be pretty much like the New England Patriots *WITH* Tom Brady- Drew Bledsoe had shown the week before the SB that the dropoff from Brady to Bledsoe at that point was pretty much nonexistant. No comparison. Take Elway off of the Broncos and they don't even make the playoffs that season.I suppose you're correct, though. You *can* say that about almost any team... it's just a lot of the time, you're going to look pretty silly doing it.
 
Despyzer said:
SSOG said:
Take Elway off of that 1986 Broncos squad and that might have been the worst superbowl team in NFL history.
It's a fairly easy conclusion to draw considering how they embarrassed themselves against the Giants in the Super Bowl, but that team did have Keith Bishop, Rulon Jones, Karl Mecklenburg, Dennis Smith, and Sammy Winder - all of whom made the Pro Bowl that year. In addition, they also had Mark Haynes, Tom Jackson, Greg Kragen, and Louis Wright - some of the better players at their positions in their day.

Meanwhile, you could take Elway off of the '98 Broncos, and they still would have easily handled the out-matched Falcons.
stepping a bit back from "all-pro", I see.
They weren't in 1986. At other points in their careers they were definitely All-Pro caliber players. You disagree?
well, some of them were all-pro at some point in their careers, some were not. Sammy Winder definitely was not all-pro caliber.
 

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