Shooting at Ft. Hood (1 Viewer)

[Voltaire]

I did not suggest anything of the such. But when there are warning signs like there were around this guy, it needs to throw up warning signs, especially since he is Muslim. Instead in the era of political correctness, we can't take the obvious into account.

What kind of America do you live in? Do you live in 2009 America? Do you live in the 1930's, 40's, 50's South? Seriously, what do you expect America of 2009 to be like? Orwell wrote about you many years ago.

I live in an America that had 3000 people killed on 9-11. One which has had DOZENS of more attacks stopped since then because of the work of our counterterrorism efforts. These attacks were done by ISLAMIC EXTREMIST. These ISLAMIC EXTRMIST desire to kill as many Americans as possible. Do you want to bury the head in the sand and deny the reality of this? We are talking about people who would blow up New York city and kill 11 million people without batting an eye. You people want to call every southerner ignorant racists when you lose an arguement, and then worry about painting with a broad brush.

Well I live in an America where HARDCORE RIGHT WINGERS have blown up the Alfred P. Murrah Building, repeatedly killed MANY doctors who do not fit their ideology, and have stockpiled machine guns, anti-tank rockets, and C4. WITHOUT BATTING AN EYE.But I keep my head in the sand because I don't think every libertarian, Christian, or Republican is a terrorist.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

I live in an America that had 3000 people killed on 9-11. One which has had DOZENS of more attacks stopped since then because of the work of our counterterrorism efforts.

Please list 24 specific attacks since 9/11/01 that were stopped solely because of U.S. counter-terrorism efforts.

 

[jon_mx]

I did not suggest anything of the such. But when there are warning signs like there were around this guy, it needs to throw up warning signs, especially since he is Muslim. Instead in the era of political correctness, we can't take the obvious into account.

What kind of America do you live in? Do you live in 2009 America? Do you live in the 1930's, 40's, 50's South? Seriously, what do you expect America of 2009 to be like? Orwell wrote about you many years ago.

This dude was a christian.

One of these guys was Jewish and the other Christian

The guy who shot up the naval base in Bahrain a year or two ago was also decidedly not Muslim.

You really want to play this game? You really want to list the terrorist acts there were done by Muslims? There are lists of hundreds and hundreds.

 

[jon_mx]

I live in an America that had 3000 people killed on 9-11. One which has had DOZENS of more attacks stopped since then because of the work of our counterterrorism efforts.

Please list 24 specific attacks since 9/11/01 that were stopped solely because of U.S. counter-terrorism efforts.

Thwarted AttacksRichard Reid, December 2001

A British citizen and self-professed follower of Osama bin Laden, Reid allegedly hid explosives inside his shoes aboard a flight from Paris to Miami and attempted to use a match to light the fuse in his shoe. The explosives were strong enough to cause damage to the plane if detonated. Caught in the act, Reid was apprehended on board the plane by the flight attendants with the assistance of passengers. FBI officials then took Reid into custody after the plane made an emergency landing at Boston's Logan Airport.[2]

Reid was found guilty of charges of terrorism in 2003, and a U.S. federal court sentenced him to life imprisonment.[3]

Jose Padilla, May 2002

U.S. officials arrested Padilla in May 2002 at O'Hare Airport in Chicago as he returned to the United States from Pakistan, initially charging him with being an enemy combatant and planning to use a "dirty bomb" (an explosive laced with radioac tive material) in an attack against America.[4] Prior to his conviction, Padilla brought a case against the federal government stating that he had been denied the right of habeas corpus (the right of an individual to petition against his or her imprisonment). The U.S. Supreme Court, in a 5–4 decision, found that the case had been filed improperly.[5] In 2005, the government officially indicted Padilla for conspiring with Islamic terrorist groups.[6]

In August 2007, Padilla was found guilty by a civilian jury after a three-month trial and a day and a half of deliberations.

Lackawanna Six, September 2002

When the FBI arrested Sahim Alwan, Yahya Goba, Yasein Taher, Faysal Galab, Shafal Mosed, and Mukhtar al-Bakri, the press dubbed them the "Lackawanna Six" (also the "Buffalo Six" or "Buf falo Cell"). Five of the six had been born and raised in Lackawanna, New York.[7] The six Amer ican citizens of Yemeni descent were arrested for conspiring with terrorist groups. They had stated that they were going to Pakistan to attend a reli gious training camp but instead attended an al-Qaeda "jihadist" camp.

All six pled guilty in 2003 to providing support to al-Qaeda. Faysal Galab received a seven-year sen tence. Sahim Alwan got seven and a half years, while Yesein Taher and Shafal Mosed both received eight-year prison sentences. Mukhtar al-Bakri, the first to plead guilty, received a 10-year sentence, as did Yahya Goba.[8]

Iyman Faris, May 2003

A naturalized U.S. citizen originally from Kash mir and living in Columbus, Ohio, Iyman Faris was arrested for conspiring to commit a terrorist act. He was suspected of planning to use blowtorches to collapse the Brooklyn Bridge.[9] The New York City Police Department had learned about the plot and increased police surveillance around the bridge. Faced with this additional security, Faris and his superiors decided to cancel the attack.[10]

Faris pled guilty to conspiracy and providing material support to al-Qaeda. During his sentencing trial, he stated that he was innocent and had admit ted a role in the plot to FBI agents only in order to trick the agents and secure a book deal. Faris was sentenced in Federal District Court to 20 years, the maximum allowed under his plea agreement.[11]

Virginia "Jihad" Network, June 2003

In Alexandria, Virginia, 11 men were arrested for weapons counts and for violating the Neutrality Act, which prohibits U.S. citizens and residents from attacking countries with which the United States is at peace. Of these 11 men, four pled guilty. Upon further investigation, the other seven members of the group were indicted on additional charges of conspiring to support terrorist organizations. They were found to have connections with al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and Lashkar-i-Taiba, a terrorist organization that targets the Indian government.[12] The authori ties stated that the Virginia men had used paintball games as a form of training and preparation for bat tle.[13] The group had also acquired surveillance and night vision equipment and wireless video cameras.[14]

The spiritual leader of the group, Ali al-Timimi, was found guilty of soliciting individuals to assault the United States and was sentenced to life in prison. Ali Asad Chandia received 15 years for sup porting Lashkar-i-Taiba but maintains his inno cence.[15] Randoll Todd Royer, Ibrahim al-Hamdi, Yong Ki Kwon, Khwaja Mahmoud Hasan, Muhammed Aatique, and Donald T. Surratt all pled guilty and were sentenced to prison terms.[16] Masoud Khan, Seifullah Chapman, and Hammad Adur-Raheem were found guilty at trial.[17]

Dhiren Barot, August 2004

A terrorist cell under the leadership of Dhiren Barot was arrested for plotting to attack the New York Stock Exchange and other financial institu tions in New York, Washington, and Newark, New Jersey, and later accused of planning attacks in England. The plots included a "memorable black day of terror" with the employment of a "dirty bomb."[18] A July 2004 police raid on Barot's house in Pakistan discovered a number of incriminating documents in files on a laptop computer that included instructions for building car bombs.[19]

Dhiren Barot pled guilty and was convicted in the United Kingdom for conspiracy to commit mass murder and sentenced to 40 years.[20]

James Elshafay and Shahawar Matin Siraj, August 2004

James Elshafay and Shahawar Matin Siraj were arrested for plotting to bomb a subway station near Madison Square Garden in New York City before the Republican National Convention.[21] The New York City Police Departments Intelligence Division helped to conduct an investigation leading to the arrests. An undercover agent infiltrated the group, provided information to authorities, and later testi fied against Elshafay and Siraj.[22]

Elshafay, a U.S. citizen, pled guilty and received a lighter sentence for testifying against his co-conspir ator. He received five years. Shawhawar Matin Siraj was sentenced to 30 years in prison.[23]

Yassin Aref and Mohammed Hossain, August 2004

Two leaders of an Albany, New York, mosque were charged with plotting to purchase a shoulder-fired grenade launcher to assassinate a Pakistani diplomat.[24] An investigation by the FBI, the Trea sury Department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, and the local police contributed to the arrest. With the help of an informant, the FBI was able to set up a sting that lured Mohammed Hos sain into a fake terrorist conspiracy.[25] Hossain brought Yassin Araf, a Kurdish refugee, as a wit ness. The informant offered details of a fake terror ist plot, claiming that he needed the missiles to murder a Pakistani diplomat in New York City. Both agreed to help.[26]

Both Aref and Hossain were found guilty of money laundering and conspiracy to conceal mate rial support for terrorism.

Umer Hayat and Hamid Hayat, June 2005

In Lodi, California, Umer Hayat and Hamid Hayat, a Pakistani immigrant and his American son, were arrested after allegedly lying to the FBI about the son's attendance at an Islamic terrorist training camp in Pakistan.

The son, Hamid Hayat, was found guilty of sup porting terrorism and was sentenced to 24 years.[27] Umer Hayat's trial ended in a mistrial. He later pled guilty to lying to a Customs agent in his attempt to carry $28,000 into Pakistan.

Levar Haley Washington, Gregory Vernon Patterson, Hammad Riaz Samana, and Kevin James, August 2005

Arrested in Los Angeles, California, the mem bers of the group were charged with conspiring to attack Los Angeles National Guard facilities, syna gogues, and other targets in the Orange County area.[28] Kevin James allegedly founded a radical Islamic prison group and converted Levar Wash ington and others to the group, which was known as JIS, short for Jamiyyat Ul-Islam Is-Saheeh.[29] The JIS allegedly planned to finance their operations by robbing gas stations. After Washington and Patter son were arrested for robberies, police and federal agents began a terrorist investigation when a search of Washington's apartment revealed a suspicious target list.[30]

All of the defendants pled not guilty and cur rently await trial.

Michael C. Reynolds, December 5, 2005

Michael C. Reynolds was arrested by the FBI and charged with being involved in a plot to blow up a Wyoming natural gas refinery; the Transcontinental Pipeline, a natural-gas pipeline stretching from the Gulf Coast to New York and New Jersey; and a New Jersey Standard Oil refinery.[31] He was arrested while trying to pick up the $40,000 owed to him for planning the attack.[32] His purported contact, Shan nen Rossmiller, was a Montana judge who was working with the FBI.[33] The FBI later found explo sives in a locker in his home town, Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania.[34] Reynolds claimed that he was working as a private citizen to find terrorists.[35]

Reynolds was convicted of providing material support to terrorists, soliciting a crime of violence, unlawful distribution of explosives, and unlawful possession of a hand grenade and sentenced to 30 years in prison.[36]

Mohammad Zaki Amawi, Marwan Othman El-Hindi, Zand Wassim Mazloum, February 2006

In Toledo, Ohio, Mohammad Zaki Amawi, Mar wan Othman El-Hindi, and Wassim Mazloum were arrested for "conspiring to kill or injure people in the Middle East" and providing material support to terrorist organizations. They allegedly intended to build bombs to be used in Iraq.[37] The investigation was begun through the help of an informant who was approached to help train the group.[38]

All defendants have pled not guilty.

Syed Haris Ahmed and Ehsanul Islam Sadequee, April 2006

Syed Haris Ahmed and Ehsanul Islam Sadequee from Atlanta, Georgia, were accused of conspiracy, having discussed terrorist targets with alleged ter rorist organizations.[39] They allegedly met with Islamic extremists and received training and in struction in how to gather videotape surveillance of potential targets in the Washington area. They videotaped places such as the U.S. Capitol and the World Bank headquarters as potential targets and sent the videos to a London extremist group.[40]

They were indicted for providing material support to terrorist organizations and have pled not guilty.

Narseal Batiste, Patrick Abraham, Stanley Grant Phanor, Naudimar Herrera, Burson Augustin, Lyglenson Lemorin, and Rotschild Augstine, June 2006

Seven men were arrested in Miami and Atlanta for allegedly being in the early stages of a plot to blow up the Sears Tower in Chicago, as well as the FBI offices and other buildings. The arrests resulted from an investigation involving an FBI informant. It is alleged that Narsearl Batiste was the leader of the group and first suggested attacking the Sears Tower in December 2005.[41]

All individuals have pled not guilty and are awaiting trial.

Assem Hammoud, July 2006

Conducting on-line surveillance of chat rooms, the FBI discovered a plot to attack underground transit links with New Jersey.[42] Eight suspects, including Assem Hammoud, an al-Qaeda loyalist living in Lebanon, were arrested for plotting to bomb the New York City train tunnels.[43] Ham moud was a self-proclaimed operative for al-Qaeda and admitted to the plot.[44] He is currently in cus tody in Lebanon, and his case is pending. Two other suspects are in custody in other locations, and investigators continue to hunt down the other five suspects.

Liquid Explosives Plot, August 2006

British law enforcement was able to stop a terror ist plot to load 10 commercial airliners headed to the United States with liquid explosives.[45] The areas said to be targeted were New York, Washington, D.C., and California.[46] Approximately 24 British persons were arrested in the London area. The style of the plot has raised speculation that al-Qaeda was behind it, but no concrete evidence has proven this.

The United Kingdom has charged 15 of the 24 arrested individuals, and trials are expected to begin in 2008.[47] The charges vary from conspiring to com mit murder to planning to commit terrorist acts.[48]

Fort Dix Plot, May 2007

Six men were arrested in a plot against Fort Dix, a U.S. Army base in New Jersey. The plan included attacking and killing soldiers using assault rifles and grenades.[49] Five of the alleged conspirators had conducted training missions in the nearby Pocono Mountains. The sixth helped to obtain weapons. The arrests were made after a 16-month FBI opera tion that included infiltrating the group. The inves tigation began after a store clerk alerted authorities when he discovered a video file of the group firing weapons and calling for "jihad." As far as is known, the group had no direct connections to any world terrorist organization.[50]

Five of the defendants have been charged with conspiracy to kill military personnel. The sixth is facing weapons charges.

JFK Plot, June 2007

Four men plotted to blow up a jet fuel artery that runs through residential neighborhoods at the John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York City. It is alleged that they believed this would create more destruction than September 11. Authorities stated that the attack would have caused major damage.[51]

Russell Defreitas, the leader of the group was arrested in Brooklyn. One of the men was a former airport worker, and two other individuals had links to Islamic extremists in South America and the Car ibbean.[52] Two others, Abdul Kadir and Kareem Ibrahim, are being held in Trinidad. Kadir was an imam in Guyana, former member of parliament, and mayor of the town of Linden, Guyana. Ibrahim is a Trinidadian citizen. The fourth suspect—Abdel Nur, a Guyanese citizen—remains at large.[53]

Cases are pending.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, March 2007

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, captured in 2003, is alleged to have been involved in a number of terrorist plots and is among the most senior of Osama bin Laden’s operatives to have been captured. He is currently held at the U.S. military detention facility at Guantanamo Bay. Mohammed admitted in March 2007 to helping to plan, organize, and run the September 11 attacks and also claimed responsibility for the first bombing at the World Trade Center and the bombings of nightclubs in Bali in 2002 and a Kenyan hotel. He has stated that he decapitated American journalist Daniel Pearl and took responsibility for helping to plan the failed attack by Richard Reid, along with plots at Heathrow Airport, Canary Wharf, and Big Ben, as well as targets in Israel and the Panama Canal. He also helped to develop plots surrounding Los Angeles, Chicago, and the Empire State Building as well as U.S. nuclear power stations. He also had plotted to assassinate Pope John Paul II and former President Bill Clinton.

The U.S. government intends to try him before a military commission authorized by Congress.

Staying Vigilant

The list of publicly known arrests demonstrates conclusively that the lack of another major terrorist attack is not a sign that organizations have relin quished their essential goals. A number of plots conducted by individuals have been prevented as a result of the increase in effective counterterrorism investigations by the United States in cooperation with friendly and allied governments. Continuing these operations, which include sound, effective, and lawful intelligence, surveillance, and investiga tions, is one of the best weapons in America's #### nal for the long war.

 

[Voltaire]

You really want to play this game? You really want to list the terrorist acts there were done by Muslims? There are lists of hundreds and hundreds.

In the last decade there have been 4 (off the top of my head) shootings at military bases. This one was carried out by a Muslim, the others (like the one in Bahrain) were not.But we can make a list of terrorist attacks by conservatives and compare that to Muslims. You won't win.

 

[jon_mx]

I did not suggest anything of the such. But when there are warning signs like there were around this guy, it needs to throw up warning signs, especially since he is Muslim. Instead in the era of political correctness, we can't take the obvious into account.

What kind of America do you live in? Do you live in 2009 America? Do you live in the 1930's, 40's, 50's South? Seriously, what do you expect America of 2009 to be like? Orwell wrote about you many years ago.

I live in an America that had 3000 people killed on 9-11. One which has had DOZENS of more attacks stopped since then because of the work of our counterterrorism efforts. These attacks were done by ISLAMIC EXTREMIST. These ISLAMIC EXTRMIST desire to kill as many Americans as possible. Do you want to bury the head in the sand and deny the reality of this? We are talking about people who would blow up New York city and kill 11 million people without batting an eye. You people want to call every southerner ignorant racists when you lose an arguement, and then worry about painting with a broad brush.

Well I live in an America where HARDCORE RIGHT WINGERS have blown up the Alfred P. Murrah Building, repeatedly killed MANY doctors who do not fit their ideology, and have stockpiled machine guns, anti-tank rockets, and C4. WITHOUT BATTING AN EYE.But I keep my head in the sand because I don't think every libertarian, Christian, or Republican is a terrorist.

McVeigh was a lone nut. There are not Christian organizations conspiring to kill millions of Americans. There are Islamic organizations that are.

 

[JZilla]

99.99% of the Muslim community are good American citizens.

While this runs counter to everything else you've implied, I'm glad you could bring yourself to say it.I know there's an Islamic fundamentalist threat. But I think you need to separate the fact that this guy was an AMERICAN born and bred and a SOLDIER his entire adult life, therefore there was no justification for his superiors to tie him to Islamic fundamentalism. They don't let people come here from Yemen and just join the Army for fun.If there were "signs" with this guy, very recently, as is being bantered about in the press, I'm sure it will all come out in the wash and IF there was any TRUE sign that the Army was aware of and looked past, then I will say the Army screwed up with this one guy. Since the Army doesn't spend its time spying on its own members, whatever "signs" come out may have rightfully gone unnoticed by them, and you know, so it goes. Just like any other bonehead that goes nuts, you can't always see it coming. That does not mean the Army should change its approach to how it treats Muslim soldiers in general, or any soldier for that matter. At some point you have to count on people to keep their #### together, and when they don't, it really sucks but there's not always a way to see it coming and stop it. See also every other random act of murder by a psycho that happens in the world.

 

[Voltaire]

I did not suggest anything of the such. But when there are warning signs like there were around this guy, it needs to throw up warning signs, especially since he is Muslim. Instead in the era of political correctness, we can't take the obvious into account.

What kind of America do you live in? Do you live in 2009 America? Do you live in the 1930's, 40's, 50's South? Seriously, what do you expect America of 2009 to be like? Orwell wrote about you many years ago.

I live in an America that had 3000 people killed on 9-11. One which has had DOZENS of more attacks stopped since then because of the work of our counterterrorism efforts. These attacks were done by ISLAMIC EXTREMIST. These ISLAMIC EXTRMIST desire to kill as many Americans as possible. Do you want to bury the head in the sand and deny the reality of this? We are talking about people who would blow up New York city and kill 11 million people without batting an eye. You people want to call every southerner ignorant racists when you lose an arguement, and then worry about painting with a broad brush.

Well I live in an America where HARDCORE RIGHT WINGERS have blown up the Alfred P. Murrah Building, repeatedly killed MANY doctors who do not fit their ideology, and have stockpiled machine guns, anti-tank rockets, and C4. WITHOUT BATTING AN EYE.But I keep my head in the sand because I don't think every libertarian, Christian, or Republican is a terrorist.

McVeigh was a lone nut. There are not Christian organizations conspiring to kill millions of Americans. There are Islamic organizations that are.

Please read the article I linked to about The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord and explain why they were training members in paramilitary tactics and stockpiling weapons. If you can do that we can go into groups like Assembly of Christian Soldiers or even the Posse Comitatus among many, many others.

 

[jon_mx]

You really want to play this game? You really want to list the terrorist acts there were done by Muslims? There are lists of hundreds and hundreds.

In the last decade there have been 4 (off the top of my head) shootings at military bases. This one was carried out by a Muslim, the others (like the one in Bahrain) were not.But we can make a list of terrorist attacks by conservatives and compare that to Muslims. You won't win.

Oh please, lets do that. I will take my chances.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

I live in an America that had 3000 people killed on 9-11. One which has had DOZENS of more attacks stopped since then because of the work of our counterterrorism efforts.

Please list 24 specific attacks since 9/11/01 that were stopped solely because of U.S. counter-terrorism efforts.

Thwarted Attacks

You listed 19 cases, of which at least 7 haven't resulted in any terrorism-related convictions. At least 3 of the cases were developed overseas and may not have involved American attacks at all.But you claimed "dozens" of American attacks were stopped because of U.S. counter-terrorism efforts. I'd like to see a list of those 24 specific American attacks.

 

[Voltaire]

You really want to play this game? You really want to list the terrorist acts there were done by Muslims? There are lists of hundreds and hundreds.

In the last decade there have been 4 (off the top of my head) shootings at military bases. This one was carried out by a Muslim, the others (like the one in Bahrain) were not.But we can make a list of terrorist attacks by conservatives and compare that to Muslims. You won't win.

Oh please, lets do that. I will take my chances.

Here's a few thousand.. Catch up to that and then we can start including murder of abortion doctors, hate crimes against gays, the Unabomber, Timothy McVeigh, The Order, etc, etc.

 

[SofaKings]

I did not suggest anything of the such. But when there are warning signs like there were around this guy, it needs to throw up warning signs, especially since he is Muslim. Instead in the era of political correctness, we can't take the obvious into account.

I think the military needs to address this. There are about 15,000 Muslims in the military, probably about 1% of the total. My first guess when this happened was that is was probably a Muslim. That sounds so racist, but what should be a 1 in a 100 chance, is more like 50-50.

I don't know, you seem to be suggesting something here. This guy was in the army for 20 years, and I will grant you, seemed to display some signs of unhappiness lately, though it all seems pretty speculative. One thing was apparently investigated and deemed inconclusive. They don't kick people out for being unhappy. Honestly, if they did, there'd be a big time shortage of deployable troops. It is unAmerican to take the fact that he's a Muslim and use as some justification to treat him differently than you would any other troop. That's not me being PC, that's what America is all about. If this jerk does something horrible because he was treated as an equal by those above him, well, that's on him not them and it is very unfortunate but IMO it was unavoidable. We don't take this incident and immediately start putting all Muslim soldiers under a microscope.

/thread

 

[JZilla]

You really want to play this game? You really want to list the terrorist acts there were done by Muslims? There are lists of hundreds and hundreds.

In the last decade there have been 4 (off the top of my head) shootings at military bases. This one was carried out by a Muslim, the others (like the one in Bahrain) were not.But we can make a list of terrorist attacks by conservatives and compare that to Muslims. You won't win.

Oh please, lets do that. I will take my chances.

I'm not going to participate in this particular sidebar, but I would like to point out that your constant pounding on the Islamic terrorist threat has nothing at all to do with the Ft. Hood shootings, given that the shooter was a natural born US citizen and a 21 year Army veteran.

 

[Statorama]

I did not suggest anything of the such. But when there are warning signs like there were around this guy, it needs to throw up warning signs, especially since he is Muslim. Instead in the era of political correctness, we can't take the obvious into account.

What kind of America do you live in? Do you live in 2009 America? Do you live in the 1930's, 40's, 50's South? Seriously, what do you expect America of 2009 to be like? Orwell wrote about you many years ago.

I live in an America that had 3000 people killed on 9-11. One which has had DOZENS of more attacks stopped since then because of the work of our counterterrorism efforts. These attacks were done by ISLAMIC EXTREMIST. These ISLAMIC EXTRMIST desire to kill as many Americans as possible. Do you want to bury the head in the sand and deny the reality of this? We are talking about people who would blow up New York city and kill 11 million people without batting an eye. You people want to call every southerner ignorant racists when you lose an arguement, and then worry about painting with a broad brush.

Love the passion man. People these days want to treat 9/11 like cancer, talking about it in hushed tones and knowing sighs.I'm glad theres guys like you out there to remind us that this isn't over. This isn't some battle we've won or lost. This is the beginning of an ideological war where any non-Muslims are the targets of fantatical religious lunatics.But in this PC world we live in, we just have to shrug our shoulders and accept our fate. People by and large are more concerned with not hurting the feelings of a Muslim than they are with protecting the citizenry at large.Sure, I'm opening myself up to some scorn here. I know there are plenty of Muslims on this board that are cool. I'm sure there are Muslims in a lot of our lives that are cool too. But it's important to me that guys like jon know they're not alone. Guys like me that remember that day, not just in the tears and the hugs, but in the fear and anger too.Look, I'm not advocating pulling every brown person out of a cab and kicking them in the nuts. I'm just saying there's a reason why profilers have jobs. Certain crimes lend themselves to distinct profiles. As a white male, do I get upset that the sketch of a serial killer begins with a white male? Well no, because it usually is a white guy. As a middle age white guy, if I go see an animated movie by myself on a Saturday, am I offended that every mom in there kind of looks at me funny? Of course not, they're parents and they should be protective of their children. An inordinate amount of kids get snatched by white dudes.I'm just kind of sick of Muslims not being able to undertake even the slightest of scrutiny without getting outraged.

 

[JZilla]

I did not suggest anything of the such. But when there are warning signs like there were around this guy, it needs to throw up warning signs, especially since he is Muslim. Instead in the era of political correctness, we can't take the obvious into account.

What kind of America do you live in? Do you live in 2009 America? Do you live in the 1930's, 40's, 50's South? Seriously, what do you expect America of 2009 to be like? Orwell wrote about you many years ago.

I live in an America that had 3000 people killed on 9-11. One which has had DOZENS of more attacks stopped since then because of the work of our counterterrorism efforts. These attacks were done by ISLAMIC EXTREMIST. These ISLAMIC EXTRMIST desire to kill as many Americans as possible. Do you want to bury the head in the sand and deny the reality of this? We are talking about people who would blow up New York city and kill 11 million people without batting an eye. You people want to call every southerner ignorant racists when you lose an arguement, and then worry about painting with a broad brush.

Love the passion man. People these days want to treat 9/11 like cancer, talking about it in hushed tones and knowing sighs.I'm glad theres guys like you out there to remind us that this isn't over. This isn't some battle we've won or lost. This is the beginning of an ideological war where any non-Muslims are the targets of fantatical religious lunatics.But in this PC world we live in, we just have to shrug our shoulders and accept our fate. People by and large are more concerned with not hurting the feelings of a Muslim than they are with protecting the citizenry at large.Sure, I'm opening myself up to some scorn here. I know there are plenty of Muslims on this board that are cool. I'm sure there are Muslims in a lot of our lives that are cool too. But it's important to me that guys like jon know they're not alone. Guys like me that remember that day, not just in the tears and the hugs, but in the fear and anger too.Look, I'm not advocating pulling every brown person out of a cab and kicking them in the nuts. I'm just saying there's a reason why profilers have jobs. Certain crimes lend themselves to distinct profiles. As a white male, do I get upset that the sketch of a serial killer begins with a white male? Well no, because it usually is a white guy. As a middle age white guy, if I go see an animated movie by myself on a Saturday, am I offended that every mom in there kind of looks at me funny? Of course not, they're parents and they should be protective of their children. An inordinate amount of kids get snatched by white dudes.I'm just kind of sick of Muslims not being able to undertake even the slightest of scrutiny without getting outraged.

What does this have to do with Maj. Nidal Hasan?

 

[jonessed]

This guy was born in the US, raised in the US, joined the Army right out of high school in 1988 and has been in ever since. Despite whatever "red flags" we think may or may not have been thrown up in the past 6 months or whatever (nothing is confirmed), I really don't think there was any reason to expect something like this. For those of you who think this is somehow the Army's fault for letting him hang around, or for letting Muslim Americans join the military, or whatever you're trying to say, I'd really be interested in your thoughts on what they should have done. Keep in mind this is America.

He made statements saying the war in Iraq/Afghanistan was a war against Islam and he's a devout Muslim Obviously that should have raised alarm bells somewhere. You don't deploy someone to a war where they feel the attack is personal. If we were invading Israel it would seem like common sense to monitor Jewish personnel that spoke about how they felt they were being forced to battle their own people. At the very least you don't deploy them to Israel.That doesn't mean Muslims shouldn't have guns, be forced out of the military, or have any other right stripped, but the warning signs were there with this guy. He should have had psychiatric monitoring (yes shrinks see shrinks) to help cope with this obvious conflict.

 

[culdeus]

I did not suggest anything of the such. But when there are warning signs like there were around this guy, it needs to throw up warning signs, especially since he is Muslim. Instead in the era of political correctness, we can't take the obvious into account.

What kind of America do you live in? Do you live in 2009 America? Do you live in the 1930's, 40's, 50's South? Seriously, what do you expect America of 2009 to be like? Orwell wrote about you many years ago.

I live in an America that had 3000 people killed on 9-11. One which has had DOZENS of more attacks stopped since then because of the work of our counterterrorism efforts. These attacks were done by ISLAMIC EXTREMIST. These ISLAMIC EXTRMIST desire to kill as many Americans as possible. Do you want to bury the head in the sand and deny the reality of this? We are talking about people who would blow up New York city and kill 11 million people without batting an eye. You people want to call every southerner ignorant racists when you lose an arguement, and then worry about painting with a broad brush.

Well I live in an America where HARDCORE RIGHT WINGERS have blown up the Alfred P. Murrah Building, repeatedly killed MANY doctors who do not fit their ideology, and have stockpiled machine guns, anti-tank rockets, and C4. WITHOUT BATTING AN EYE.But I keep my head in the sand because I don't think every libertarian, Christian, or Republican is a terrorist.

McVeigh was a lone nut. There are not Christian organizations conspiring to kill millions of Americans. There are Islamic organizations that are.

What about that Nichols guy?

 

[Statorama]

What does this have to do with Maj. Nidal Hasan?

I'm just still fired up after the Palin rally last night, that's all.

 

[Voltaire]

This guy was born in the US, raised in the US, joined the Army right out of high school in 1988 and has been in ever since. Despite whatever "red flags" we think may or may not have been thrown up in the past 6 months or whatever (nothing is confirmed), I really don't think there was any reason to expect something like this. For those of you who think this is somehow the Army's fault for letting him hang around, or for letting Muslim Americans join the military, or whatever you're trying to say, I'd really be interested in your thoughts on what they should have done. Keep in mind this is America.

He made statements saying the war in Iraq/Afghanistan was a war against Islam and he's a devout Muslim Obviously that should have raised alarm bells somewhere. You don't deploy someone to a war where they feel the attack is personal. If we were invading Israel it would seem like common sense to monitor Jewish personnel that spoke about how they felt they were being forced to battle their own people. At the very least you don't deploy them to Israel.That doesn't mean Muslims shouldn't have guns, be forced out of the military, or have any other right stripped, but the warning signs were there with this guy. He should have had psychiatric monitoring (yes shrinks see shrinks) to help cope with this obvious conflict.

This isn't the thread for your logical post.

 

[JZilla]

This guy was born in the US, raised in the US, joined the Army right out of high school in 1988 and has been in ever since. Despite whatever "red flags" we think may or may not have been thrown up in the past 6 months or whatever (nothing is confirmed), I really don't think there was any reason to expect something like this. For those of you who think this is somehow the Army's fault for letting him hang around, or for letting Muslim Americans join the military, or whatever you're trying to say, I'd really be interested in your thoughts on what they should have done. Keep in mind this is America.

He made statements saying the war in Iraq/Afghanistan was a war against Islam and he's a devout Muslim Obviously that should have raised alarm bells somewhere. You don't deploy someone to a war where they feel the attack is personal. If we were invading Israel it would seem like common sense to monitor Jewish personnel that spoke about how they felt they were being forced to battle their own people. At the very least you don't deploy them to Israel.That doesn't mean Muslims shouldn't have guns, be forced out of the military, or have any other right stripped, but the warning signs were there with this guy. He should have had psychiatric monitoring (yes shrinks see shrinks) to help cope with this obvious conflict.

What were those statements? What do we know exactly? What would/should his superiors have known exactly? A conversation he may or may not have had with his cousin, should there have been a tap on his phone because he is a Muslim? That's what I'm trying to get to here. We really don't know that much about how he fell apart the past X number of months, but we do know now he definitely fell apart. The Army has a lot of people. Do you recommend the Army pay "special" attention to its Muslim members and their personal lives? Because that's a direct violation of civil rights.

 

[JZilla]

What does this have to do with Maj. Nidal Hasan?

I'm just still fired up after the Palin rally last night, that's all.

Well that's certainly understandable. Carry on.

 

[Soonerman]

You really want to play this game? You really want to list the terrorist acts there were done by Muslims? There are lists of hundreds and hundreds.

In the last decade there have been 4 (off the top of my head) shootings at military bases. This one was carried out by a Muslim, the others (like the one in Bahrain) were not.But we can make a list of terrorist attacks by conservatives and compare that to Muslims. You won't win.

Oh please, lets do that. I will take my chances.

Here's a few thousand.. Catch up to that and then we can start including murder of abortion doctors, hate crimes against gays, the Unabomber, Timothy McVeigh, The Order, etc, etc.

I'll play. Here's a million or so.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Massacre

 

[jon_mx]

You really want to play this game? You really want to list the terrorist acts there were done by Muslims? There are lists of hundreds and hundreds.

In the last decade there have been 4 (off the top of my head) shootings at military bases. This one was carried out by a Muslim, the others (like the one in Bahrain) were not.But we can make a list of terrorist attacks by conservatives and compare that to Muslims. You won't win.

Oh please, lets do that. I will take my chances.

Here's a few thousand.. Catch up to that and then we can start including murder of abortion doctors, hate crimes against gays, the Unabomber, Timothy McVeigh, The Order, etc, etc.

Oh come on, let's talk recent history, not 150 years ago. Let's not drag in the acts of the Democrat Klan organizations. Let's talk about the theat TODAY. Today, liberal organizations like ALF and ELF are the biggest terrorist threat behind Islamic extremists.

 

[JZilla]

You leave Alf out of this

 

[jonessed]

This guy was born in the US, raised in the US, joined the Army right out of high school in 1988 and has been in ever since. Despite whatever "red flags" we think may or may not have been thrown up in the past 6 months or whatever (nothing is confirmed), I really don't think there was any reason to expect something like this. For those of you who think this is somehow the Army's fault for letting him hang around, or for letting Muslim Americans join the military, or whatever you're trying to say, I'd really be interested in your thoughts on what they should have done. Keep in mind this is America.

He made statements saying the war in Iraq/Afghanistan was a war against Islam and he's a devout Muslim Obviously that should have raised alarm bells somewhere. You don't deploy someone to a war where they feel the attack is personal. If we were invading Israel it would seem like common sense to monitor Jewish personnel that spoke about how they felt they were being forced to battle their own people. At the very least you don't deploy them to Israel.That doesn't mean Muslims shouldn't have guns, be forced out of the military, or have any other right stripped, but the warning signs were there with this guy. He should have had psychiatric monitoring (yes shrinks see shrinks) to help cope with this obvious conflict.

What were those statements? What do we know exactly? What would/should his superiors have known exactly? A conversation he may or may not have had with his cousin, should there have been a tap on his phone because he is a Muslim? That's what I'm trying to get to here. We really don't know that much about how he fell apart the past X number of months, but we do know now he definitely fell apart. The Army has a lot of people. Do you recommend the Army pay "special" attention to its Muslim members and their personal lives? Because that's a direct violation of civil rights.

There are quotes all over the place from co-workers. You can find one in just about every article. His angst for the war was not unknown. He was obviously conflicted.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

You leave Alf out of this

And Elf.

 

[Voltaire]

You really want to play this game? You really want to list the terrorist acts there were done by Muslims? There are lists of hundreds and hundreds.

In the last decade there have been 4 (off the top of my head) shootings at military bases. This one was carried out by a Muslim, the others (like the one in Bahrain) were not.But we can make a list of terrorist attacks by conservatives and compare that to Muslims. You won't win.

Oh please, lets do that. I will take my chances.

Here's a few thousand.. Catch up to that and then we can start including murder of abortion doctors, hate crimes against gays, the Unabomber, Timothy McVeigh, The Order, etc, etc.

I'll play. Here's a million or so.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Massacre

We were talking domestically, but if you want to go worldwide...The Crusades.SOD

 

[Voltaire]

You really want to play this game? You really want to list the terrorist acts there were done by Muslims? There are lists of hundreds and hundreds.

In the last decade there have been 4 (off the top of my head) shootings at military bases. This one was carried out by a Muslim, the others (like the one in Bahrain) were not.But we can make a list of terrorist attacks by conservatives and compare that to Muslims. You won't win.

Oh please, lets do that. I will take my chances.

Here's a few thousand.. Catch up to that and then we can start including murder of abortion doctors, hate crimes against gays, the Unabomber, Timothy McVeigh, The Order, etc, etc.

Oh come on, let's talk recent history, not 150 years ago. Let's not drag in the acts of the Democrat Klan organizations. Let's talk about the theat TODAY. Today, liberal organizations like ALF and ELF are the biggest terrorist threat behind Islamic extremists.

Do you see how that goes against your argument?The fact is there are a ton of right wing terrorist groups in the US today. They have carried out thousands of terrorist attacks (even after the era of the KKK...which still exists). Does that mean that every registered Republican in the military who doesn't want to deploy should be looked upon skeptically? You can come up with any group and then show how people who share some kind of ideology have bastardized it into something that it isn't.

There are also a ton of liberal organizations who commit acts of terrorism. It's a good thing I didn't tell anybody I voted for Obama, they might have stripped my clearance.

 

[jonessed]

We were talking domestically, but if you want to go worldwide...The Crusades.SOD

Come on with the Crusades already. The massacres that preceded the Crusades was as bad or worse than the Crusades themselves. The Middle East was Christian before it was Muslim. Why do you think the First Crusade was so successful? Just call it a draw and move on. It happened hundreds of years ago. It has no bearing on this.

 

[Voltaire]

We were talking domestically, but if you want to go worldwide...The Crusades.SOD

Come on with the Crusades already. The massacres that preceded the Crusades was as bad or worse than the Crusades themselves. The Middle East was Christian before it was Muslim. Why do you think the First Crusade was so successful? Just call it a draw and move on. It happened hundreds of years ago. It has no bearing on this.

I thought we were joking?

 

[JZilla]

This guy was born in the US, raised in the US, joined the Army right out of high school in 1988 and has been in ever since. Despite whatever "red flags" we think may or may not have been thrown up in the past 6 months or whatever (nothing is confirmed), I really don't think there was any reason to expect something like this. For those of you who think this is somehow the Army's fault for letting him hang around, or for letting Muslim Americans join the military, or whatever you're trying to say, I'd really be interested in your thoughts on what they should have done. Keep in mind this is America.

He made statements saying the war in Iraq/Afghanistan was a war against Islam and he's a devout Muslim Obviously that should have raised alarm bells somewhere. You don't deploy someone to a war where they feel the attack is personal. If we were invading Israel it would seem like common sense to monitor Jewish personnel that spoke about how they felt they were being forced to battle their own people. At the very least you don't deploy them to Israel.That doesn't mean Muslims shouldn't have guns, be forced out of the military, or have any other right stripped, but the warning signs were there with this guy. He should have had psychiatric monitoring (yes shrinks see shrinks) to help cope with this obvious conflict.

What were those statements? What do we know exactly? What would/should his superiors have known exactly? A conversation he may or may not have had with his cousin, should there have been a tap on his phone because he is a Muslim? That's what I'm trying to get to here. We really don't know that much about how he fell apart the past X number of months, but we do know now he definitely fell apart. The Army has a lot of people. Do you recommend the Army pay "special" attention to its Muslim members and their personal lives? Because that's a direct violation of civil rights.

There are quotes all over the place from co-workers. You can find one in just about every article. His angst for the war was not unknown. He was obviously conflicted.

Well I just read a couple and I don't see anything about coworkers in particular. A lot of outsiders are weighing in. I guess it's a matter of how much The Army knew vs. how much The Army didn't know. They knew at this point he was becoming a bit of a ####-up, no doubt. Plenty of ####-ups in the military and every other job for that matter. My point remains, you cannot treat Muslim soldiers any different than you treat any other solider, just because they are Muslim. You cannot connect a guy who was born in Virginia and spent 21 years in the Army with Al Qaeda just because of his name or faith.And I said this already, if the Army screwed this up, and this guy showed outward signs to his superiors of potentially doing something like this, then yes that's on those people for not doing more about it. But it's a fine line between knowing a guy is having some problems and knowing a guy is a serious threat. Lots of people have problems.

 

[FUBAR]

You really want to play this game? You really want to list the terrorist acts there were done by Muslims? There are lists of hundreds and hundreds.

In the last decade there have been 4 (off the top of my head) shootings at military bases. This one was carried out by a Muslim, the others (like the one in Bahrain) were not.But we can make a list of terrorist attacks by conservatives and compare that to Muslims. You won't win.

Oh please, lets do that. I will take my chances.

Here's a few thousand.. Catch up to that and then we can start including murder of abortion doctors, hate crimes against gays, the Unabomber, Timothy McVeigh, The Order, etc, etc.

Oh come on, let's talk recent history, not 150 years ago. Let's not drag in the acts of the Democrat Klan organizations. Let's talk about the theat TODAY. Today, liberal organizations like ALF and ELF are the biggest terrorist threat behind Islamic extremists.

Are you pretending to not know of Norman Olson?Before you hound me for assuming I'm talking about the OK City, I'm not. He's still a nut.

 

[Soonerman]

Do you see how that goes against your argument?

The fact is there are a ton of right wing terrorist groups in the US today. They have carried out thousands of terrorist attacks (even after the era of the KKK...which still exists). Does that mean that every registered Republican in the military who doesn't want to deploy should be looked upon skeptically? You can come up with any group and then show how people who share some kind of ideology have bastardized it into something that it isn't.

There are also a ton of liberal organizations who commit acts of terrorism. It's a good thing I didn't tell anybody I voted for Obama, they might have stripped my clearance.

So domestically, how many have the Klan killed in the last 10 years vs how many have been killed by Muslim terrorists?

 

[FUBAR]

The fact is there are a ton of right wing terrorist groups in the US today. They have carried out thousands of terrorist attacks (even after the era of the KKK...which still exists). Does that mean that every registered Republican in the military who doesn't want to deploy should be looked upon skeptically? You can come up with any group and then show how people who share some kind of ideology have bastardized it into something that it isn't.

There are also a ton of liberal organizations who commit acts of terrorism. It's a good thing I didn't tell anybody I voted for Obama, they might have stripped my clearance.

frankly, any person, regardless of faith or political view who glorifies suicide bombers should be looked upon skeptically.

 

[Voltaire]

Do you see how that goes against your argument?

The fact is there are a ton of right wing terrorist groups in the US today. They have carried out thousands of terrorist attacks (even after the era of the KKK...which still exists). Does that mean that every registered Republican in the military who doesn't want to deploy should be looked upon skeptically? You can come up with any group and then show how people who share some kind of ideology have bastardized it into something that it isn't.

There are also a ton of liberal organizations who commit acts of terrorism. It's a good thing I didn't tell anybody I voted for Obama, they might have stripped my clearance.

So domestically, how many have the Klan killed in the last 10 years vs how many have been killed by Muslim terrorists?

You're missing the point on several levels. Most basically that we were talking about all right wingers and not just the Klan. That's like asking how many have died in the Armenian Genocide in the last 10 years. If anything the right wingers have been at it longer, they should be a bigger risk.The big theme, however, was that you can come up with fringe lunatics who kinda believe what some mainstream people believe. That doesn't mean you should clamp down on the mainstream.

For example, a GB of mine recently completed OCS. He's the biggest environmentalist I know. We've already established that liberal eco-terrorism is alive and well, is my friend a risk of shooting up a base like all these Muslims are?

 

[jonessed]

This guy was born in the US, raised in the US, joined the Army right out of high school in 1988 and has been in ever since. Despite whatever "red flags" we think may or may not have been thrown up in the past 6 months or whatever (nothing is confirmed), I really don't think there was any reason to expect something like this. For those of you who think this is somehow the Army's fault for letting him hang around, or for letting Muslim Americans join the military, or whatever you're trying to say, I'd really be interested in your thoughts on what they should have done. Keep in mind this is America.

He made statements saying the war in Iraq/Afghanistan was a war against Islam and he's a devout Muslim Obviously that should have raised alarm bells somewhere. You don't deploy someone to a war where they feel the attack is personal. If we were invading Israel it would seem like common sense to monitor Jewish personnel that spoke about how they felt they were being forced to battle their own people. At the very least you don't deploy them to Israel.That doesn't mean Muslims shouldn't have guns, be forced out of the military, or have any other right stripped, but the warning signs were there with this guy. He should have had psychiatric monitoring (yes shrinks see shrinks) to help cope with this obvious conflict.

What were those statements? What do we know exactly? What would/should his superiors have known exactly? A conversation he may or may not have had with his cousin, should there have been a tap on his phone because he is a Muslim? That's what I'm trying to get to here. We really don't know that much about how he fell apart the past X number of months, but we do know now he definitely fell apart. The Army has a lot of people. Do you recommend the Army pay "special" attention to its Muslim members and their personal lives? Because that's a direct violation of civil rights.

There are quotes all over the place from co-workers. You can find one in just about every article. His angst for the war was not unknown. He was obviously conflicted.

Well I just read a couple and I don't see anything about coworkers in particular. A lot of outsiders are weighing in. I guess it's a matter of how much The Army knew vs. how much The Army didn't know. They knew at this point he was becoming a bit of a ####-up, no doubt. Plenty of ####-ups in the military and every other job for that matter. My point remains, you cannot treat Muslim soldiers any different than you treat any other solider, just because they are Muslim. You cannot connect a guy who was born in Virginia and spent 21 years in the Army with Al Qaeda just because of his name or faith.

And I said this already, if the Army screwed this up, and this guy showed outward signs to his superiors of potentially doing something like this, then yes that's on those people for not doing more about it. But it's a fine line between knowing a guy is having some problems and knowing a guy is a serious threat. Lots of people have problems.

Here's an entire interview.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EA1v2r8sHc

It's not about being a ####-up or insane. He was conflicted. Devout Muslims who are conflicted about a war against their own people need to be monitored or at least counseled. Come on, this goes for anyone in any war where such a conflict would arise.

The colonel in the interview was even told there was an investigation based on what he told his superiors. Hasan was transferred to Ft. Hood months later for disciplinary reasons. He went up his chain of command trying to get out of deployment. People knew he had religious issues with the war.

 

[jonessed]

We were talking domestically, but if you want to go worldwide...The Crusades.SOD

Come on with the Crusades already. The massacres that preceded the Crusades was as bad or worse than the Crusades themselves. The Middle East was Christian before it was Muslim. Why do you think the First Crusade was so successful? Just call it a draw and move on. It happened hundreds of years ago. It has no bearing on this.

I thought we were joking?

Sorry, apparently I missed it.

 

[JZilla]

It's not about being a ####-up or insane. He was conflicted. Devout Muslims who are conflicted about a war against their own people need to be monitored or at least counseled. Come on, this goes for anyone in any war where such a conflict would arise.

Agree that devout Muslims who exhibit a conflict about the war should be addressed in some way. Just as ANYONE who exhibits a conflict about the war should be addressed. I think we're coming to a middle ground here, that does not include blind persecution of all Muslim soldiers as has been suggested earlier in the thread. Many Muslim American soldiers experience no conflict at all in waging war against those who would wage war on their country, a country that allows them to practice their faith without prejudice or persecution.

 

[Walton Goggins]

I haven't followed this thread because, well, there just can't be a decent discussion around here anymore before it's a race to see who can derail the thread first but knowing Doctor Detroit a little, for him to get banned in a thread like this. . .it seems the FFA has hit a new high in low. The man is a veteran who has seen more and done more than most all of you to give you the very ability to be #######s to one another. Nice job

he's not banned. looks like he'll be back tomorrow.for the record, his brief suspension was for laying into Brutis/Peens, another military guy who probably won't be back here for awhile. If I know DrD at all, I don't think he'll mind taking a day off.

Good to know Aaron, thanks. The world is a better place.

I shouldn't have gotten so far off topic on such an important topic. I don't regret anything I said but I shouldn't have said it in this thread.I apologize to all viewing, this certainly wasn't about any one who was posting on an internet board.

After the uncalled for pm you sent me consider it a wash. You need to learn to tone it down.

 

[jon_mx]

It's not about being a ####-up or insane. He was conflicted. Devout Muslims who are conflicted about a war against their own people need to be monitored or at least counseled. Come on, this goes for anyone in any war where such a conflict would arise.

Agree that devout Muslims who exhibit a conflict about the war should be addressed in some way. Just as ANYONE who exhibits a conflict about the war should be addressed. I think we're coming to a middle ground here, that does not include blind persecution of all Muslim soldiers as has been suggested earlier in the thread. Many Muslim American soldiers experience no conflict at all in waging war against those who would wage war on their country, a country that allows them to practice their faith without prejudice or persecution.

No one ever suggested anything even close.

 

[JZilla]

It's not about being a ####-up or insane. He was conflicted. Devout Muslims who are conflicted about a war against their own people need to be monitored or at least counseled. Come on, this goes for anyone in any war where such a conflict would arise.

Agree that devout Muslims who exhibit a conflict about the war should be addressed in some way. Just as ANYONE who exhibits a conflict about the war should be addressed. I think we're coming to a middle ground here, that does not include blind persecution of all Muslim soldiers as has been suggested earlier in the thread. Many Muslim American soldiers experience no conflict at all in waging war against those who would wage war on their country, a country that allows them to practice their faith without prejudice or persecution.

No one ever suggested anything even close.

You clearly suggested that Muslim American soldiers should be at the very least viewed with a wary eye.

 

[jonessed]

It's not about being a ####-up or insane. He was conflicted. Devout Muslims who are conflicted about a war against their own people need to be monitored or at least counseled. Come on, this goes for anyone in any war where such a conflict would arise.

Agree that devout Muslims who exhibit a conflict about the war should be addressed in some way. Just as ANYONE who exhibits a conflict about the war should be addressed. I think we're coming to a middle ground here, that does not include blind persecution of all Muslim soldiers as has been suggested earlier in the thread. Many Muslim American soldiers experience no conflict at all in waging war against those who would wage war on their country, a country that allows them to practice their faith without prejudice or persecution.

He exhibited a clear conflict. Just listen to the interview. The colonel is pretty detailed about his encounters, and encounters Hasan had with other personnel. He was told by his superiors there was an investigation, Hasan was transferred shortly thereafter, Hasan went up the chain of command trying to get out of deployment.And, yes, anyone that shows a conflict should be addressed. That includes national issues, religious issues, family issues, etc. I doubt someone with an ethical issue about war in general is going to go on a shooting rampage.

 

[jon_mx]

You're missing the point on several levels. Most basically that we were talking about all right wingers and not just the Klan. That's like asking how many have died in the Armenian Genocide in the last 10 years. If anything the right wingers have been at it longer, they should be a bigger risk.

The big theme, however, was that you can come up with fringe lunatics who kinda believe what some mainstream people believe. That doesn't mean you should clamp down on the mainstream.

For example, a GB of mine recently completed OCS. He's the biggest environmentalist I know. We've already established that liberal eco-terrorism is alive and well, is my friend a risk of shooting up a base like all these Muslims are?

The Klan is no more representive of the right wing then the Nazi's are representative of the left wing.

 

[jon_mx]

You really want to play this game? You really want to list the terrorist acts there were done by Muslims? There are lists of hundreds and hundreds.

In the last decade there have been 4 (off the top of my head) shootings at military bases. This one was carried out by a Muslim, the others (like the one in Bahrain) were not.But we can make a list of terrorist attacks by conservatives and compare that to Muslims. You won't win.

Oh please, lets do that. I will take my chances.

I'm not going to participate in this particular sidebar, but I would like to point out that your constant pounding on the Islamic terrorist threat has nothing at all to do with the Ft. Hood shootings, given that the shooter was a natural born US citizen and a 21 year Army veteran.

It has everything to do with it. He choose his Islamic faith over his country. They guy was shouting Allah.

 

[JZilla]

It's not about being a ####-up or insane. He was conflicted. Devout Muslims who are conflicted about a war against their own people need to be monitored or at least counseled. Come on, this goes for anyone in any war where such a conflict would arise.

Agree that devout Muslims who exhibit a conflict about the war should be addressed in some way. Just as ANYONE who exhibits a conflict about the war should be addressed. I think we're coming to a middle ground here, that does not include blind persecution of all Muslim soldiers as has been suggested earlier in the thread. Many Muslim American soldiers experience no conflict at all in waging war against those who would wage war on their country, a country that allows them to practice their faith without prejudice or persecution.

He exhibited a clear conflict. Just listen to the interview. The colonel is pretty detailed about his encounters, and encounters Hasan had with other personnel. He was told by his superiors there was an investigation, Hasan was transferred shortly thereafter, Hasan went up the chain of command trying to get out of deployment.And, yes, anyone that shows a conflict should be addressed. That includes national issues, religious issues, family issues, etc. I doubt someone with an ethical issue about war in general is going to go on a shooting rampage.

Fair enough. So maybe in this case the Army screwed up, though do you take his conflict as a sign that he was going to do something of this magnitude? At the end of the day, this soldier has an obligation to serve. Should they have seen this conflict as an indication that he was going to slaughter fellow Americans, and what should they have done at this point?Should any soldier who exhibits reservations about the war be released from duty? Seems like an easy out.

I'm not trying to justify anything here in regard to this case. All of the facts are still coming out and in the end I'm pretty certain we'll know what exactly went down with this guy. I'm not trying to defend any particular action, ESPECIALLY his actions or even his attitude. My basic point is that you cannot base your treatment of any soldier on his religion or ethnic background. Beyond that, case by case it becomes difficult, as the Army has a number of disgruntled soldiers to deal with and how they deal with them, well it's pretty tough to determine what that SHOULD be.

 

[jon_mx]

It's not about being a ####-up or insane. He was conflicted. Devout Muslims who are conflicted about a war against their own people need to be monitored or at least counseled. Come on, this goes for anyone in any war where such a conflict would arise.

Agree that devout Muslims who exhibit a conflict about the war should be addressed in some way. Just as ANYONE who exhibits a conflict about the war should be addressed. I think we're coming to a middle ground here, that does not include blind persecution of all Muslim soldiers as has been suggested earlier in the thread. Many Muslim American soldiers experience no conflict at all in waging war against those who would wage war on their country, a country that allows them to practice their faith without prejudice or persecution.

No one ever suggested anything even close.

You clearly suggested that Muslim American soldiers should be at the very least viewed with a wary eye.

I suggested it should be a consideration if other factors warrant it. That is not even close to be saying, "blind persecution of all Muslim soldiers as has been suggested". You completely mischaracterized what I said.

 

[JZilla]

It has everything to do with it. He choose his Islamic faith over his country. They guy was shouting Allah.

Absolutely. So all Muslim soldiers are a threat, or just those who are devout, or just this guy? Every Muslim says Allahu-akbar 5 times a day or more. Just like Christians say Amen.No doubt this guy lost it and leaned on Islam to essentially justify his newfound cause of killing fellow American soldiers. Doesn't have much to do with Muslim soldiers as a whole if you ask me. Despite your assertions that you were so sure this was a Muslim, non-Muslims pull this shooting spree crap all the time.

 

[JZilla]

I suggested it should be a consideration if other factors warrant it. That is not even close to be saying, "blind persecution of all Muslim soldiers as has been suggested". You completely mischaracterized what I said.

I think the military needs to address this. There are about 15,000 Muslims in the military, probably about 1% of the total. My first guess when this happened was that is was probably a Muslim. That sounds so racist, but what should be a 1 in a 100 chance, is more like 50-50.

The military needs to address what exactly?

 

[jon_mx]

It has everything to do with it. He choose his Islamic faith over his country. They guy was shouting Allah.

Absolutely. So all Muslim soldiers are a threat, or just those who are devout, or just this guy? Every Muslim says Allahu-akbar 5 times a day or more. Just like Christians say Amen.No doubt this guy lost it and leaned on Islam to essentially justify his newfound cause of killing fellow American soldiers. Doesn't have much to do with Muslim soldiers as a whole if you ask me. Despite your assertions that you were so sure this was a Muslim, non-Muslims pull this shooting spree crap all the time.

Yes, there are lots of different people who pull this. But amazing how this 1 in a 100 shot was correct. To me it appears it was radical Muslims who convinced this guy to lose it. It appears to be the root cause and prime motivation for this. But we will learn more.

 

[urbanhack]

You're missing the point on several levels. Most basically that we were talking about all right wingers and not just the Klan. That's like asking how many have died in the Armenian Genocide in the last 10 years. If anything the right wingers have been at it longer, they should be a bigger risk.

The big theme, however, was that you can come up with fringe lunatics who kinda believe what some mainstream people believe. That doesn't mean you should clamp down on the mainstream.

For example, a GB of mine recently completed OCS. He's the biggest environmentalist I know. We've already established that liberal eco-terrorism is alive and well, is my friend a risk of shooting up a base like all these Muslims are?

The Klan is no more representive of the right wing then the Nazi's are representative of the left wing.

WAT?