Should Mike Vick be a starting QB? (1 Viewer)

[The Football Freak]

I have watched the guy play and I just don't think he has was it takes to win it all in the NFL. He can be exciting at times, but that is with his feet and he has to be able to win more than one or two games a year with his arm. During NFL primetime they came up with an interesting stat. In the first 8 games when they went 6-2, Vick was throwing for less that 150 yards a game and they were relying more heavily on the run (which was the lionshare Dunn for 55-60 percent). In the last 7 games where they went 2-5, they threw more, for a 199 per game average, and relied less on the run. When the criticism grew more heated and they put the game on Vick's arm, they lost games and also their playoff spot. What say you all?

 

[jurb26]

What say you all?

I say I can't believe this question is being asked of a guy who was voted into the Pro Bowl by his peers and coaches 3 times in 4 years. Yes, he is a starting caliber QB and a better than average one at the least.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

What say you all?

I say I can't believe this question is being asked of a guy who was voted into the Pro Bowl by his peers and coaches 3 times in 4 years. Yes, he is a starting caliber QB and a better than average one at the least.

Vick is definitely a starting QB in this league but he still remains average in my eyes. He deserved the pro bowl last season but he did not deserve to make the pro bowl this year. He made the pro bowl this season because of injuries to QB in the NFC this season and therefore they looked down the line of QB's and saw no one better. The NFC's qb's for the pro bowl in comparison to the AFC are a joke.Guys injured this year from the NFC

McNabb

Bulger

Culpepper

Griese

 

[shakeybarn]

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!! YET A-N-O-T-H-E-R VICK THREAD!!Maybe F'Guys can setup another sub-group and call it Michael Vick Rant n Raves... and let ppl thread out into the Vick Abyss.

 

[bostonfred]

I don't understand the Vick hate, especially considering he's just a year older than Eli, has significantly improved his passing in his second year in the west coast offense, and is one of the most exciting players to watch in the NFL. The only reasons I can think of are if your favorite team were in the same division with him, or had been beaten by Vick's Falcons in the playoffs, or maybe you'd lost some fantasy games with him at the helm. Or is it ESPN (and specifically the Sunday night crew) constantly hyping him?

 

[delusional]

no people bash him because we were force fed this vick wagon as the next big superstarruns like a rb...throws like a hof qb...the vick factor...etc etcfrankly we could put randle el back at QB and he would do the same as vick, if not better

 

[Dancing Bear]

Vick gets TOO MUCH credit for the Falcons wins [there are 53 players with helmets on] and he gets no critism when the Falcons lose.

He is still barely a 50% passer [don't give me this he is still learning the system garbage ...].

He has more turnovers this year than TD's thrown.

He is in the bottom 1/3 of all starting QB's who lead their Offense to 3-and-out series.

The Michael Jordan effect has started to take place where if a DE person blows in his ear there is a 15-yard Unsportsman-like penalty. Meanwhile guys like Bulger, Griese and Roethlisberger are sidelined by the hits they are taking with no flags flying ...

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

Vick gets TOO MUCH credit for the Falcons wins [there are 53 players with helmets on] and he gets no critism when the Falcons lose.

He is still barely a 50% passer [don't give me this he is still learning the system garbage ...].

He has more turnovers this year than TD's thrown.

He is in the bottom 1/3 of all starting QB's who lead their Offense to 3-and-out series.

The Michael Jordan effect has started to take place where if a DE person blows in his ear there is a 15-yard Unsportsman-like penalty. Meanwhile guys like Bulger, Griese and Roethlisberger are sidelined by the hits they are taking with no flags flying ...

He is a starting qb for sure, but making the pro bowl this year was ridiculous.

 

[The Football Freak]

I have seen lots of opinions on him, I just thought there should be a straighforward poll to see where majority opinion lies. I know he made the pro-bowl, but it took the number 1 rushing attack for him to get mediocre passing stats. I know he can run, there is no question there, but I think that as defenses key on his running, which they did this year, he just can't get it done in the passing game. He is an electrifying player when the play breaks down, but what about being a field general, or being able to gunsling when the need arises, or even just having the accuracy needed to make this a perennial number 1 rushing team. It is nice to think he could become a McNabb or McNair when he gets some experience to go with his natural running instincts, but I just don't see the basic building blocks for him to become a great NFL QB, with all that entails. I'm not hating, I just had Dunn this year so finally got to see a whole season of him (most snaps too), and I just don't see any improvement in the passing game.

 

[Fresh Prince]

Vick gets TOO MUCH credit for the Falcons wins [there are 53 players with helmets on] and he gets no critism when the Falcons lose.

He is still barely a 50% passer [don't give me this he is still learning the system garbage ...].

He has more turnovers this year than TD's thrown.

He is in the bottom 1/3 of all starting QB's who lead their Offense to 3-and-out series.

The Michael Jordan effect has started to take place where if a DE person blows in his ear there is a 15-yard Unsportsman-like penalty. Meanwhile guys like Bulger, Griese and Roethlisberger are sidelined by the hits they are taking with no flags flying ...

You are kidding right? PLENTY of people dump on him after he does bad. This must come straight from a hater's mouth. Vick gets too much credit and gets too much hate.

 

[valhallan]

I'm just glad he's not on my team.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

Is he overrated? yes. Does that mean that he should not be a starting NFL QB? Hell no.

 

[Jason Wood]

There are entirely too many mediocre QBs in the NFL to suggest Vick shouldn't be starting in the NFL. That said, I do wholeheartedly believe that, barring significant improvement in his skill set, he shouldn't be starting for a team with real Super Bowl aspirations.Against a good many NFL defenses, Vick is very hard to discount. Against SB-worthy, playoff-bound, disciplined NFL defenses? He's overmatched.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

Vick gets TOO MUCH credit for the Falcons wins [there are 53 players with helmets on] and he gets no critism when the Falcons lose.

He is still barely a 50% passer [don't give me this he is still learning the system garbage ...].

He has more turnovers this year than TD's thrown.

He is in the bottom 1/3 of all starting QB's who lead their Offense to 3-and-out series.

The Michael Jordan effect has started to take place where if a DE person blows in his ear there is a 15-yard Unsportsman-like penalty.  Meanwhile guys like Bulger, Griese and Roethlisberger are sidelined by the hits they are taking with no flags flying ...

You are kidding right? PLENTY of people dump on him after he does bad. This must come straight from a hater's mouth. Vick gets too much credit and gets too much hate.

I agree 100% Vick does get to much credit for the wins and to much hate for the loses; that sums it up very well. Heck he even gets hate on when he wins. My problem is when people try to place him as a better then average QB when he is clearly not even close to taking that next step into the elite level yet.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

Vick gets TOO MUCH credit for the Falcons wins [there are 53 players with helmets on] and he gets no critism when the Falcons lose.

He is still barely a 50% passer [don't give me this he is still learning the system garbage ...].

He has more turnovers this year than TD's thrown.

He is in the bottom 1/3 of all starting QB's who lead their Offense to 3-and-out series.

The Michael Jordan effect has started to take place where if a DE person blows in his ear there is a 15-yard Unsportsman-like penalty. Meanwhile guys like Bulger, Griese and Roethlisberger are sidelined by the hits they are taking with no flags flying ...

You are kidding right? PLENTY of people dump on him after he does bad. This must come straight from a hater's mouth. Vick gets too much credit and gets too much hate.

I agree 100% Vick does get to much credit for the wins and to much hate for the loses; that sums it up very well. Heck he even gets hate on when he wins. My problem is when people try to place him as a better then average QB when he is clearly not even close to taking that next step into the elite level yet.

His Pro Bowl berth from the vote of the NFL players and coaches suggests otherwise.

 

[jurb26]

How in the world can 18 people on this board actually believe that Vick does not deserve to be starting somewhere in the NFL?

 

[Dancing Bear]

jurb26,Most probably believe that he should be an RB or WR or Slash ...

 

[The Football Freak]

There are entirely too many mediocre QBs in the NFL to suggest Vick shouldn't be starting in the NFL. That said, I do wholeheartedly believe that, barring significant improvement in his skill set, he shouldn't be starting for a team with real Super Bowl aspirations.

Against a good many NFL defenses, Vick is very hard to discount. Against SB-worthy, playoff-bound, disciplined NFL defenses? He's overmatched.

That is a good point. But it's not like teams are trying to have medicre QB's and they usually get traded or dropped or demoted after a while. Is Vick undemotable? Would you say that is because of salary, the teams past winning ways, or because of perception/hype?

 

[Da Guru]

Vick should be a starter..a lower tier starter albeit. Vick will always end up between #25-32 among starters just like this year.

 

[Jason Wood]

There are entirely too many mediocre QBs in the NFL to suggest Vick shouldn't be starting in the NFL. That said, I do wholeheartedly believe that, barring significant improvement in his skill set, he shouldn't be starting for a team with real Super Bowl aspirations.

Against a good many NFL defenses, Vick is very hard to discount. Against SB-worthy, playoff-bound, disciplined NFL defenses? He's overmatched.

That is a good point. But it's not like teams are trying to have medicre QB's and they usually get traded or dropped or demoted after a while. Is Vick undemotable? Would you say that is because of salary, the teams past winning ways, or because of perception/hype?

I think his W-L record, his marketability and his salary make him nearly impossible to bench. But then again, I don't think the Falcons have [or could get this year] a QB that would be a better alternative so it's kind of a moot point.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

Vick gets TOO MUCH credit for the Falcons wins [there are 53 players with helmets on] and he gets no critism when the Falcons lose.

He is still barely a 50% passer [don't give me this he is still learning the system garbage ...].

He has more turnovers this year than TD's thrown.

He is in the bottom 1/3 of all starting QB's who lead their Offense to 3-and-out series.

The Michael Jordan effect has started to take place where if a DE person blows in his ear there is a 15-yard Unsportsman-like penalty.  Meanwhile guys like Bulger, Griese and Roethlisberger are sidelined by the hits they are taking with no flags flying ...

You are kidding right? PLENTY of people dump on him after he does bad. This must come straight from a hater's mouth. Vick gets too much credit and gets too much hate.

I agree 100% Vick does get to much credit for the wins and to much hate for the loses; that sums it up very well. Heck he even gets hate on when he wins. My problem is when people try to place him as a better then average QB when he is clearly not even close to taking that next step into the elite level yet.

His Pro Bowl berth from the vote of the NFL players and coaches suggests otherwise.

Or due to injury of better QB's and the NFC being filled with terrible QB play this year Vick got a sympathy vote into the pro bowl. He is having at best a mediocre season and his team will not make the playoffs yet he is selected to the pro bowl. How does that work???? If your team is not going to make the playoffs you should have a great statistical year to get you into the pro bowl to counter playing on a team that is not good enough to make play offs. But Vick has done neither this year yet he will be credited with having a pro bowl year, which is comical and will lead for more hate on Vick.

 

[crazyhorse]

I have watched the guy play and I just don't think he has was it takes to win it all in the NFL.

Do you think there are 32 other QBs available that have what it takes to win it all in the NFL? I don't think so, therefore Vick is worth using as a starter on at least 1 team.He's taking a while to develope, but I'd give him another 2-3 years before deciding if this is his peak or not.

 

[Da Guru]

I truly feel that Vicks poor play at QB is the reason Atlanta is in so many close games. They are a better team than that.And the Won/lost thing took a hit this year as well.

 

[Gr00vus]

I don't think he's a good qb in NFL terms. Should he be starting? Yeah he's probably better than anyone the Jets have for instance. I guess right now you'd probably start him over some of the younger guys like Frye, Grossman. I can't see him being worse that Kyle Boller. He's proably better than Carr. Definitely better than Alex Smith (I think the 49ers have a real lemon there). Better than Gus Frerrotte and anyone in Tampa probably. Better than anyone that Detroit has I think. Kurt Warner, Aaron Brooks...hmmm. I'm probably forgetting some, but he's still a starting qb.My problem with Vick is that he has not delivered on the hype he got when he was drafted. He is still what he was then - an incredibly dynamic athelete whose success is completely predicated on his physicall abilities. He has not progressed at all in mastering his position which is the position that requires the highest degree of mental activity and discipline of any on the football field. He still throws a bad ball, and inaccurately at that. He's fun to watch somtimes, but when I watch, in total he does not say championship calibre qb.All of these negatives are correctable. My greatest disappointment with Vick is that he does not seem to be taking the necessary measures to improve in these areas. Will he change this and work to improve? Until such time as he does he will never be more than he is right now, and right now he is not a good NFL qb. I'm not a hater or a lover - just a realist.

 

[juveduke]

I'm glad to have him here in Atlanta, but he is not worth his salary.Definitely starter material.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

His Pro Bowl berth from the vote of the NFL players and coaches suggests otherwise.

Or due to injury of better QB's and the NFC being filled with terrible QB play this year Vick got a sympathy vote into the pro bowl. He is having at best a mediocre season and his team will not make the playoffs yet he is selected to the pro bowl. How does that work???? If your team is not going to make the playoffs you should have a great statistical year to get you into the pro bowl to counter playing on a team that is not good enough to make play offs. But Vick has done neither this year yet he will be credited with having a pro bowl year, which is comical and will lead for more hate on Vick.

Your arguments mean nothing to me seeing how he got into the Pro Bowl.The NFL players and coaches votes are what got him into the Pro Bowl....not the fans. When your competition and peers are the ones voting you in as one of the best players as a QB, how can you think otherwise? How can you, as an armchair QB, think you have a better opinion on Vick than the athletes and coaches who actually play with and against him. Sorry, I will side with the players and coaches WAY sooner than I will an armchair QB.

How can you even dispute Vick's ability or worthiness in the Pro Bowl with how he got the respect of the players and coaches?

Do you think you know more about football than the NFL players and coaches?

 

[Gr00vus]

How can you even dispute Vick's ability or worthiness in the Pro Bowl?

It's pretty easy actually.The bottom line is there are qb's in the NFC who performed better and whose teams performed bettter that are not going while Vick is. Add to that that he fails the eye test for some of us (he doesn't look like he's as good a qb as some guys who aren't going) and I think there's a more than adequate case for those who don't think he deserves to be there this year. He simply didn't have a pro bowl year in any way shape or form, and there's nothing the players or coaches can say or do to change that however much they know about football.

But I've seen your routine before, it's a waste of time arguing about it. It's also not the topic of discussion.

 

[Jedeye]

Perhaps a better question is Would you want him to be the starter for YOUR football team (NFL, not fantasy)?

 

[Godsbrother]

Every time I see a Falcons game with Vick at QB I think of Kordell Stewart. Vick is a bit better runner than Kordell was but, and I can't believe I am saying this, Kordell was a better passer. And Kordell also was a decent WR when he wanted to be (although Vick could probably be a WR too).All in all, I would rather not have either of them be the QB of my team.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

How can you even dispute Vick's ability or worthiness in the Pro Bowl?

It's pretty easy actually.The bottom line is there are qb's in the NFC who performed better and whose teams performed bettter that are not going while Vick is. Add to that that he fails the eye test for some of us (he doesn't look like he's as good a qb as some guys who aren't going) and I think there's a more than adequate case for those who don't think he deserves to be there this year. He simply didn't have a pro bowl year in any way shape or form, and there's nothing the players or coaches can say or do to change that however much they know about football.

But I've seen your routine before, it's a waste of time arguing about it. It's also not the topic of discussion.

Of course...what was I thinking....You have a better eye for talent compared to NFL coaches and NFL players.

My bad...continue on in your dream world.

 

[The Football Freak]

How can you even dispute Vick's ability or worthiness in the Pro Bowl?

It's pretty easy actually.The bottom line is there are qb's in the NFC who performed better and whose teams performed bettter that are not going while Vick is. Add to that that he fails the eye test for some of us (he doesn't look like he's as good a qb as some guys who aren't going) and I think there's a more than adequate case for those who don't think he deserves to be there this year. He simply didn't have a pro bowl year in any way shape or form, and there's nothing the players or coaches can say or do to change that however much they know about football.

But I've seen your routine before, it's a waste of time arguing about it. It's also not the topic of discussion.

Of course...what was I thinking....You have a better eye for talent compared to NFL coaches and NFL players.

My bad...continue on in your dream world.

LT was left out of the pro bowl a couple years ago after a huge season, does that mean that the other NFL players thought he had no ability and was a bad player?

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

How can you even dispute Vick's ability or worthiness in the Pro Bowl?

It's pretty easy actually.The bottom line is there are qb's in the NFC who performed better and whose teams performed bettter that are not going while Vick is. Add to that that he fails the eye test for some of us (he doesn't look like he's as good a qb as some guys who aren't going) and I think there's a more than adequate case for those who don't think he deserves to be there this year. He simply didn't have a pro bowl year in any way shape or form, and there's nothing the players or coaches can say or do to change that however much they know about football.

But I've seen your routine before, it's a waste of time arguing about it. It's also not the topic of discussion.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

How can you even dispute Vick's ability or worthiness in the Pro Bowl?

It's pretty easy actually.The bottom line is there are qb's in the NFC who performed better and whose teams performed bettter that are not going while Vick is. Add to that that he fails the eye test for some of us (he doesn't look like he's as good a qb as some guys who aren't going) and I think there's a more than adequate case for those who don't think he deserves to be there this year. He simply didn't have a pro bowl year in any way shape or form, and there's nothing the players or coaches can say or do to change that however much they know about football.

But I've seen your routine before, it's a waste of time arguing about it. It's also not the topic of discussion.

Of course...what was I thinking....You have a better eye for talent compared to NFL coaches and NFL players.

My bad...continue on in your dream world.

LT was left out of the pro bowl a couple years ago after a huge season, does that mean that the other NFL players thought he had no ability and was a bad player?

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

His Pro Bowl berth from the vote of the NFL players and coaches suggests otherwise.

Or due to injury of better QB's and the NFC being filled with terrible QB play this year Vick got a sympathy vote into the pro bowl. He is having at best a mediocre season and his team will not make the playoffs yet he is selected to the pro bowl. How does that work???? If your team is not going to make the playoffs you should have a great statistical year to get you into the pro bowl to counter playing on a team that is not good enough to make play offs. But Vick has done neither this year yet he will be credited with having a pro bowl year, which is comical and will lead for more hate on Vick.

Your arguments mean nothing to me seeing how he got into the Pro Bowl.The NFL players and coaches votes are what got him into the Pro Bowl....not the fans. When your competition and peers are the ones voting you in as one of the best players as a QB, how can you think otherwise? How can you, as an armchair QB, think you have a better opinion on Vick than the athletes and coaches who actually play with and against him. Sorry, I will side with the players and coaches WAY sooner than I will an armchair QB.

How can you even dispute Vick's ability or worthiness in the Pro Bowl with how he got the respect of the players and coaches?

Do you think you know more about football than the NFL players and coaches?

What NFL players and coaches vote and how close was the voting etc etc? Are some players voting for him that did not even play against him?? Do they take into consideration his stats which for a non play off team should be very important? There are a lot of variables to just say the coaches and players respected him and voted him in. I mean sure they respect him and give him props but how in any way shape or form did Vick fit the description of a pro bowl year this year for a QB???

 

[victorology]

Definitely deserves to be a starting QB.

 

[Da Guru]

His Pro Bowl berth from the vote of the NFL players and coaches suggests otherwise.

Or due to injury of better QB's and the NFC being filled with terrible QB play this year Vick got a sympathy vote into the pro bowl. He is having at best a mediocre season and his team will not make the playoffs yet he is selected to the pro bowl. How does that work???? If your team is not going to make the playoffs you should have a great statistical year to get you into the pro bowl to counter playing on a team that is not good enough to make play offs. But Vick has done neither this year yet he will be credited with having a pro bowl year, which is comical and will lead for more hate on Vick.

Your arguments mean nothing to me seeing how he got into the Pro Bowl.The NFL players and coaches votes are what got him into the Pro Bowl....not the fans. When your competition and peers are the ones voting you in as one of the best players as a QB, how can you think otherwise? How can you, as an armchair QB, think you have a better opinion on Vick than the athletes and coaches who actually play with and against him. Sorry, I will side with the players and coaches WAY sooner than I will an armchair QB.

How can you even dispute Vick's ability or worthiness in the Pro Bowl with how he got the respect of the players and coaches?

Do you think you know more about football than the NFL players and coaches?

What NFL players and coaches vote and how close was the voting etc etc? Are some players voting for him that did not even play against him?? Do they take into consideration his stats which for a non play off team should be very important? There are a lot of variables to just say the coaches and players respected him and voted him in. I mean sure they respect him and give him props but how in any way shape or form did Vick fit the description of a pro bowl year this year for a QB???

 

[one4thumb]

Vick should be a starter..a lower tier starter albeit. Vick will always end up between #25-32 among starters just like this year.

Always what? He was #9 in our scoring format this year (4 pts per pass td, 1 pt per 25 yards passing, 1 pt per rush yard, 6 pts per rush td) thru 13 weeks.These arguments are incredulous. Give Vick 1 coach who is more committed to designing an offense around a skill-set of one of the greatest atheletes ever in the NFL as opposed to force-fitting Vick into their system and Vick would be much more productive.

Also, comparing Vick's stats to fantasy stats that you consider acceptable while trying to say he's not NFL capable is an impossible comparison.

Only Manning, Favre and Bledsoe had more fantasy points amongst NFC qbs this year in our league:: how many of them made the ProBowl this year? Deserved to make it? Fantasy success and NFL success do not always go hand in hand. Please take off the fantasy goggles.

I'll take Vick's upside with this stat line:

150 yards passing, 1td, 1int, 60 yards rushing (6 + 4 - 1 + 6 = 15 pts)

Than this stat line:

250 yards passing, 1td, 1int (10 + 4 - 1 = 13 pts).

ANYDAY. You take your quote unquote better qb, I'll take the guy who is set to explode and can and does a handful of times each year to ride my team to fantasy bliss.

Maybe you should grow up and play a game more complicated than counting tds. Live a little, make it a New Years Resolution.

 

[Chaka]

Well he's no Josh McKown...

 

[Dancing Bear]

one4thumb,You make me giggle.Of course the scoring system will make significant differences in how one assesses the data, but ...Would you take this stat line?23 attempts11 completions112 yards1 TD1 INT8 rushes51 yardsVick had this lovely performance against the New Orleans Saints.Or this one?35 attempts17 completions171 yards0 TD's2 INT3 rushes36 yardsVick had this one against the Carolina Panthers.Or this one?32 attempts13 completions112 yards0 TD's2 INT6 rushes35 yardsVick had this one against the Chicago Bears.These games obviously don't tell the whole story of the long season, and Vick does put up some games where he will score you 30 or more points. Unfortunately, Vick has historically been up and down throughout a season with very high fluctuations [5 points one week, 30 the next], and often his eggs are not against stout Defenses either.Last year he laid eggs against San Francisco, Arizona, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Oakland, Detroit and Kansas City. Some of these you might have expected, but many of these are definite surprises ...This makes it very difficult to feel comfortable using him week in, week out. Over the season it may indeed be better to take someone who is going to give you that steady 15 points per game [Plummer, Green, Leftwich, etc.], than to ride the roller coaster.

 

[juveduke]

This makes it very difficult to feel comfortable using him week in, week out. Over the season it may indeed be better to take someone who is going to give you that steady 15 points per game [Plummer, Green, Leftwich, etc.], than to ride the roller coaster.

Green has had 5 games without a TD and a few games where he was right around 0 in FF scoring :X For a comparison, here are Delhomme's stats against similar opponents:

NO:

19/31 for 212yds, 1TD, 2 INT, 1 FUM, 2/17 Rushing

Chicago:

22/38 for 235, 0TD, 2INT, 2/8 Rushing

Dallas:

14/31 for 260, 2 TD, 1 INT, 3 FUM, 1/-1 rushing

 

[one4thumb]

one4thumb,

You make me giggle.

Of course the scoring system will make significant differences in how one assesses the data, but ...

Would you take this stat line?

23 attempts

11 completions

112 yards

1 TD

1 INT

8 rushes

51 yards

Vick had this lovely performance against the New Orleans Saints.

Or this one?

35 attempts

17 completions

171 yards

0 TD's

2 INT

3 rushes

36 yards

Vick had this one against the Carolina Panthers.

Or this one?

32 attempts

13 completions

112 yards

0 TD's

2 INT

6 rushes

35 yards

Vick had this one against the Chicago Bears.

These games obviously don't tell the whole story of the long season, and Vick does put up some games where he will score you 30 or more points. Unfortunately, Vick has historically been up and down throughout a season with very high fluctuations [5 points one week, 30 the next], and often his eggs are not against stout Defenses either.

Last year he laid eggs against San Francisco, Arizona, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Oakland, Detroit and Kansas City. Some of these you might have expected, but many of these are definite surprises ...

This makes it very difficult to feel comfortable using him week in, week out. Over the season it may indeed be better to take someone who is going to give you that steady 15 points per game [Plummer, Green, Leftwich, etc.], than to ride the roller coaster.

I grant you that using him exclusively week in and out isn't always a sure bet, but how many qbs can you say are sure bets EVERY week? Let me counter some of your points.1. Vick only has 12 ints in 15 games. 25 qbs have thrown at least 9 and 13 qbs have thrown at least 12. Ok, call have average when it comes to ints and I can live with that.

2. Vick has multiple int's in only 3 games. You conveniently picked two of them. You didn't mention he has 0 int's in 6/15 games.

3. You chose 3 of the 4 games where he scored the least number of points this season. Name me a qb who doesn't have at least 3 lower scores this season. A cursory glance at Peyton Manning shows him with a grand total of 3 pts vs Jax and a total of 4 pts vs Seattle. Relativity is everything when making rational and logical comparisons. Are you saying you can't count on Manning because he has bad games too? If you are you can't count on anyone.

4. Vick had 5 multiple td games (33%) and 7 multiple total td games. Puts his 3 games with 2 or so ints into perspective. Oh, and only 2 games this season with 0 total tds and you conveniently named them both. Also, you mention Trent Green. Is this the same Green with FIVE games this year with ZERO tds? Isn't that more boom or bust than Vick? Where's the lack of confidence in those stats?

5. Individual performance for Vick does not always closely indicate team performance in the w/l column. Consider this: Vick threw INT's in 6 of the team's 8 wins. Consider this: Vick had 0 int's in 4 of the team's 6 losses. (Vick missed one game also).

6. You single out Plummer, Green and Leftwich as Vick substitutes saying they give you 15 pts per game. Over the same 13 weeks in my leagues scoring format, here is each's season points (our 13 week season):

Vick 170, Plummer 164, Green 159, Leftwich 150 - With Vick at 13ppg avg, the others are all less.

I'd much rather take the guy who is more likely to explode for 30 points and give me a win on his shoulders and risk a few lower scoring games where others can step up than a guy who scores LESS than my guy on the season and has less upside to explode a huge game.

I'll chalk this up to a difference of opinion, but what aggravates me is when someone can't argue both sides and can never see the other side to anything, not saying thats you. I know you know what I mean though. People can argue their side, but at least be open to evidence without it having to break over their head to hear or see it.

 

[Da Guru]

Vick should be a starter..a lower tier starter albeit.  Vick will always end up between #25-32 among starters just like this year.

Always what? He was #9 in our scoring format this year (4 pts per pass td, 1 pt per 25 yards passing, 1 pt per rush yard, 6 pts per rush td) thru 13 weeks.These arguments are incredulous. Give Vick 1 coach who is more committed to designing an offense around a skill-set of one of the greatest atheletes ever in the NFL as opposed to force-fitting Vick into their system and Vick would be much more productive.

Also, comparing Vick's stats to fantasy stats that you consider acceptable while trying to say he's not NFL capable is an impossible comparison.

Only Manning, Favre and Bledsoe had more fantasy points amongst NFC qbs this year in our league:: how many of them made the ProBowl this year? Deserved to make it? Fantasy success and NFL success do not always go hand in hand. Please take off the fantasy goggles.

I'll take Vick's upside with this stat line:

150 yards passing, 1td, 1int, 60 yards rushing (6 + 4 - 1 + 6 = 15 pts)

Than this stat line:

250 yards passing, 1td, 1int (10 + 4 - 1 = 13 pts).

ANYDAY. You take your quote unquote better qb, I'll take the guy who is set to explode and can and does a handful of times each year to ride my team to fantasy bliss.

Maybe you should grow up and play a game more complicated than counting tds. Live a little, make it a New Years Resolution.

I was talking NFL stats..not FF. As we speak Vick is the #29 in QB rating in the NFL. Also he is not higher that #23 in yards, or passing TDs.

 

[Big Score]

frankly we could put randle el back at QB and he would do the same as vick, if not better

 

[Shlon]

Vick should be a starter..a lower tier starter albeit.  Vick will always end up between #25-32 among starters just like this year.

Always what? He was #9 in our scoring format this year (4 pts per pass td, 1 pt per 25 yards passing, 1 pt per rush yard, 6 pts per rush td) thru 13 weeks.These arguments are incredulous. Give Vick 1 coach who is more committed to designing an offense around a skill-set of one of the greatest atheletes ever in the NFL as opposed to force-fitting Vick into their system and Vick would be much more productive.

Also, comparing Vick's stats to fantasy stats that you consider acceptable while trying to say he's not NFL capable is an impossible comparison.

Only Manning, Favre and Bledsoe had more fantasy points amongst NFC qbs this year in our league:: how many of them made the ProBowl this year? Deserved to make it? Fantasy success and NFL success do not always go hand in hand. Please take off the fantasy goggles.

I'll take Vick's upside with this stat line:

150 yards passing, 1td, 1int, 60 yards rushing (6 + 4 - 1 + 6 = 15 pts)

Than this stat line:

250 yards passing, 1td, 1int (10 + 4 - 1 = 13 pts).

ANYDAY. You take your quote unquote better qb, I'll take the guy who is set to explode and can and does a handful of times each year to ride my team to fantasy bliss.

Maybe you should grow up and play a game more complicated than counting tds. Live a little, make it a New Years Resolution.

I was talking NFL stats..not FF. As we speak Vick is the #29 in QB rating in the NFL. Also he is not higher that #23 in yards, or passing TDs.

You have to include Vick's rushing #'s and not rely solely on passing statistics. Vick can have a season like he had in 2002 (with Dan Reeves offense which gave him more freedom). Vick doesn't know the system enough to make an audible out of a blitz, either that or he's handcuffed.

 

[The Football Freak]

bb

His Pro Bowl berth from the vote of the NFL players and coaches suggests otherwise.

Or due to injury of better QB's and the NFC being filled with terrible QB play this year Vick got a sympathy vote into the pro bowl. He is having at best a mediocre season and his team will not make the playoffs yet he is selected to the pro bowl. How does that work???? If your team is not going to make the playoffs you should have a great statistical year to get you into the pro bowl to counter playing on a team that is not good enough to make play offs. But Vick has done neither this year yet he will be credited with having a pro bowl year, which is comical and will lead for more hate on Vick.

Your arguments mean nothing to me seeing how he got into the Pro Bowl.The NFL players and coaches votes are what got him into the Pro Bobwl....not the fans. When your competition and peers are the ones voting you in as one of the best players as a QB, how can you think otherwise? How can you, as an armchair QB, think you have a better opinion on Vick than the athletes and coaches who actually play with and against him. Sorry, I will side with the players and coaches WAY sooner than I will an armchair QB.

How can you even dispute Vick's ability or worthiness in the Pro Bowl with how he got the respect of the players and coaches?

Do you think you know more about football than the NFL players and coaches?

What NFL players and coaches vote and how close was the voting etc etc? Are some players voting for him that did not even play against him?? Do they take into consideration his stats which for a non play off team should be very important? There are a lot of variables to just say the coaches and players respected him and voted him in. I mean sure they respect him and give him props but how in any way shape or form did Vick fit the description of a pro bowl year this year for a QB???b

Yeah, I was pretty surprised by the pro bowl.

 

[Gr00vus]

How can you even dispute Vick's ability or worthiness in the Pro Bowl?

It's pretty easy actually.The bottom line is there are qb's in the NFC who performed better and whose teams performed bettter that are not going while Vick is. Add to that that he fails the eye test for some of us (he doesn't look like he's as good a qb as some guys who aren't going) and I think there's a more than adequate case for those who don't think he deserves to be there this year. He simply didn't have a pro bowl year in any way shape or form, and there's nothing the players or coaches can say or do to change that however much they know about football.

But I've seen your routine before, it's a waste of time arguing about it. It's also not the topic of discussion.

Of course...what was I thinking....You have a better eye for talent compared to NFL coaches and NFL players.

My bad...continue on in your dream world.

Your argument is weak - you're engaging in an appeal to authority and a straw man which are well known logical fallacies. You've not supported your opinion with any solid reasoning or confirmable objective facts and have failed to address all the factual information introduced as counter arguments - you have not proved your position in any way.Answer the question: do you honestly think Vick's season is more worthy of the a pro bowl berth than Eli Manning, Mark Brunell, Brad Johnson and Drew Bledsoe? If so why - based on stats, based on how their teams did?

Or is it your contention that the pro bowl is really about recognizing players who have the must untapped potential, physical prowess, hype and cred regardless of actual performance? If so why didn't Lawrence Phillips ever make it?

These are rhetorical questions of course, I already know the answers, but it would be entertaining to see you attempt to come to grips with facts instead of leaning on heresay and your nebulous view of other peoples' opinions.

Good luck with that, I'll return to my "dream world" now.

 

[bobspruill]

one4thumb,

You make me giggle.

Of course the scoring system will make significant differences in how one assesses the data, but ...

Would you take this stat line?

23 attempts

11 completions

112 yards

1 TD

1 INT

8 rushes

51 yards

Vick had this lovely performance against the New Orleans Saints.

Or this one?

35 attempts

17 completions

171 yards

0 TD's

2 INT

3 rushes

36 yards

Vick had this one against the Carolina Panthers.

Or this one?

32 attempts

13 completions

112 yards

0 TD's

2 INT

6 rushes

35 yards

Vick had this one against the Chicago Bears.

These games obviously don't tell the whole story of the long season, and Vick does put up some games where he will score you 30 or more points. Unfortunately, Vick has historically been up and down throughout a season with very high fluctuations [5 points one week, 30 the next], and often his eggs are not against stout Defenses either.

Last year he laid eggs against San Francisco, Arizona, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Oakland, Detroit and Kansas City. Some of these you might have expected, but many of these are definite surprises ...

This makes it very difficult to feel comfortable using him week in, week out. Over the season it may indeed be better to take someone who is going to give you that steady 15 points per game [Plummer, Green, Leftwich, etc.], than to ride the roller coaster.

First, Plummer belongs a tier above Green & Leftwich, but nevertheless your point is taken. I like the Vick pick because he's typically available late--as this board's discussion shows, many people have inaccurate notions of how his performance compares to that of other QBs. Also, with a solid foundation, I can take a QB with scoring upside, even if he is inconsistent.I sure wouldn't have traded him for Peyton Manning for the purposes of trying to win a fantasy bowl this past weekend.

 

[JohnnyU]

Do you think 5 years from now we will still be talking about Vick's potential? Also, will we still be making excuses for Vick because he hasn't had enough time to learn the system?

 

[Dancing Bear]

You're right on here Johnny U!



We'll be adding him to the same heap that Kordell Stewart rests atop these days. The Wow wasn't he amazing, but never reached his full potential heap.

 

[Da Guru]

I agree that Randel El could have been as effective as Vick as a NFL QB. Maybe Matt Jones as well.