Should Mike Vick be a starting QB? (1 Viewer)

[Carter_Can_Fly]

How can you even dispute Vick's ability or worthiness in the Pro Bowl?

It's pretty easy actually.The bottom line is there are qb's in the NFC who performed better and whose teams performed bettter that are not going while Vick is. Add to that that he fails the eye test for some of us (he doesn't look like he's as good a qb as some guys who aren't going) and I think there's a more than adequate case for those who don't think he deserves to be there this year. He simply didn't have a pro bowl year in any way shape or form, and there's nothing the players or coaches can say or do to change that however much they know about football.

But I've seen your routine before, it's a waste of time arguing about it. It's also not the topic of discussion.

Of course...what was I thinking....You have a better eye for talent compared to NFL coaches and NFL players.

My bad...continue on in your dream world.

Your argument is weak - you're engaging in an appeal to authority and a straw man which are well known logical fallacies. You've not supported your opinion with any solid reasoning or confirmable objective facts and have failed to address all the factual information introduced as counter arguments - you have not proved your position in any way.Answer the question: do you honestly think Vick's season is more worthy of the a pro bowl berth than Eli Manning, Mark Brunell, Brad Johnson and Drew Bledsoe? If so why - based on stats, based on how their teams did?

Or is it your contention that the pro bowl is really about recognizing players who have the must untapped potential, physical prowess, hype and cred regardless of actual performance? If so why didn't Lawrence Phillips ever make it?

These are rhetorical questions of course, I already know the answers, but it would be entertaining to see you attempt to come to grips with facts instead of leaning on heresay and your nebulous view of other peoples' opinions.

Good luck with that, I'll return to my "dream world" now.

hmmm how will Friday manage to TRY and talk his way out of this one.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

Your argument is weak - you're engaging in an appeal to authority and a straw man which are well known logical fallacies. You've not supported your opinion with any solid reasoning or confirmable objective facts and have failed to address all the factual information introduced as counter arguments - you have not proved your position in any way.

Answer the question: do you honestly think Vick's season is more worthy of the a pro bowl berth than Eli Manning, Mark Brunell, Brad Johnson and Drew Bledsoe? If so why - based on stats, based on how their teams did?

Or is it your contention that the pro bowl is really about recognizing players who have the must untapped potential, physical prowess, hype and cred regardless of actual performance? If so why didn't Lawrence Phillips ever make it?

These are rhetorical questions of course, I already know the answers, but it would be entertaining to see you attempt to come to grips with facts instead of leaning on heresay and your nebulous view of other peoples' opinions.

Good luck with that, I'll return to my "dream world" now.

hmmm how will Friday manage to TRY and talk his way out of this one.

I don't have to talk myself out of anything. My argument is bang on.You are an uneducated outsider and contradicting the opinion of educated people who actually have hands on experience in the matter.

Thats like me coming into your workplace and proclaiming who the employee of the month is without knowing much about it. Call me crazy, but I think that the co-workers and bosses in the company would have a much better opinion of who is the most valued in the company, moreso than an outsider.

My argument rests on knowing that Vick went to the Pro Bowl solely by the hands of his peers. That is all the conclusive evidence I need to show me that Vick belongs there.

Sorry, but your opinion, as a casual fan, does not hold anywhere the same weight as the people who actually play the game themselves.

If my argument rests on the opinion of the NFL players and coaches, thats fine. That holds alot more water than the opinion of some casual fans who think they know it all.

This is the reason they changed the format for the Pro Bowl selections.

 

[Gr00vus]

Your argument is weak - you're engaging in an appeal to authority and a straw man which are well known logical fallacies. You've not supported your opinion with any solid reasoning or confirmable objective facts and have failed to address all the factual information introduced as counter arguments - you have not proved your position in any way.

Answer the question: do you honestly think Vick's season is more worthy of the a pro bowl berth than Eli Manning, Mark Brunell, Brad Johnson and Drew Bledsoe? If so why - based on stats, based on how their teams did?

Or is it your contention that the pro bowl is really about recognizing players who have the must untapped potential, physical prowess, hype and cred regardless of actual performance? If so why didn't Lawrence Phillips ever make it?

These are rhetorical questions of course, I already know the answers, but it would be entertaining to see you attempt to come to grips with facts instead of leaning on heresay and your nebulous view of other peoples' opinions.

Good luck with that, I'll return to my "dream world" now.

hmmm how will Friday manage to TRY and talk his way out of this one.

I don't have to talk myself out of anything. My argument is bang on.You are an uneducated outsider and contradicting the opinion of educated people who actually have hands on experience in the matter.

Thats like me coming into your workplace and proclaiming who the employee of the month is without knowing much about it. Call me crazy, but I think that the co-workers and bosses in the company would have a much better opinion of who is the most valued in the company, moreso than an outsider.

My argument rests on knowing that Vick went to the Pro Bowl solely by the hands of his peers. That is all the conclusive evidence I need to show me that Vick belongs there.

Sorry, but your opinion, as a casual fan, does not hold anywhere the same weight as the people who actually play the game themselves.

If my argument rests on the opinion of the NFL players and coaches, thats fine. That holds alot more water than the opinion of some casual fans who think they know it all.

So predictable.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

Your argument is weak - you're engaging in an appeal to authority and a straw man which are well known logical fallacies. You've not supported your opinion with any solid reasoning or confirmable objective facts and have failed to address all the factual information introduced as counter arguments - you have not proved your position in any way.

Answer the question: do you honestly think Vick's season is more worthy of the a pro bowl berth than Eli Manning, Mark Brunell, Brad Johnson and Drew Bledsoe? If so why - based on stats, based on how their teams did?

Or is it your contention that the pro bowl is really about recognizing players who have the must untapped potential, physical prowess, hype and cred regardless of actual performance? If so why didn't Lawrence Phillips ever make it?

These are rhetorical questions of course, I already know the answers, but it would be entertaining to see you attempt to come to grips with facts instead of leaning on heresay and your nebulous view of other peoples' opinions.

Good luck with that, I'll return to my "dream world" now.

hmmm how will Friday manage to TRY and talk his way out of this one.

I don't have to talk myself out of anything. My argument is bang on.You are an uneducated outsider and contradicting the opinion of educated people who actually have hands on experience in the matter.

Thats like me coming into your workplace and proclaiming who the employee of the month is without knowing much about it. Call me crazy, but I think that the co-workers and bosses in the company would have a much better opinion of who is the most valued in the company, moreso than an outsider.

My argument rests on knowing that Vick went to the Pro Bowl solely by the hands of his peers. That is all the conclusive evidence I need to show me that Vick belongs there.

Sorry, but your opinion, as a casual fan, does not hold anywhere the same weight as the people who actually play the game themselves.

If my argument rests on the opinion of the NFL players and coaches, thats fine. That holds alot more water than the opinion of some casual fans who think they know it all.

So predictable.

Ya, the argument that you know more than the consensus of the entire NFL is such a better argument.

 

[JohnnyU]

Your argument is weak - you're engaging in an appeal to authority and a straw man which are well known logical fallacies.  You've not supported your opinion with any solid reasoning or confirmable objective facts and have failed to address all the factual information introduced as counter arguments - you have not proved your position in any way.

Answer the question: do you honestly think Vick's season is more worthy of the a pro bowl berth than Eli Manning, Mark Brunell, Brad Johnson and Drew Bledsoe?  If so why - based on stats, based on how their teams did?

Or is it your contention that the pro bowl is really about recognizing players who have the must untapped potential, physical prowess, hype and cred regardless of actual performance?  If so why didn't Lawrence Phillips ever make it?

These are rhetorical questions of course, I already know the answers, but it would be entertaining to see you attempt to come to grips with facts instead of leaning on heresay and your nebulous view of other peoples' opinions.

Good luck with that, I'll return to my "dream world" now.

hmmm how will Friday manage to TRY and talk his way out of this one.

I don't have to talk myself out of anything. My argument is bang on.You are an uneducated outsider and contradicting the opinion of educated people who actually have hands on experience in the matter.

Thats like me coming into your workplace and proclaiming who the employee of the month is without knowing much about it. Call me crazy, but I think that the co-workers and bosses in the company would have a much better opinion of who is the most valued in the company, moreso than an outsider.

My argument rests on knowing that Vick went to the Pro Bowl solely by the hands of his peers. That is all the conclusive evidence I need to show me that Vick belongs there.

Sorry, but your opinion, as a casual fan, does not hold anywhere the same weight as the people who actually play the game themselves.

If my argument rests on the opinion of the NFL players and coaches, thats fine. That holds alot more water than the opinion of some casual fans who think they know it all.

So predictable.

I thought it was a very good response, even though I think Vick sucks.

 

[Gr00vus]

I thought it was a very good response, even though I think Vick sucks.

It's a miserable response since it's basically repeating the same thing he's been saying ad nauseum without addressing any of the logical flaws subsequently exposed in his argument OR any of the factual counterarguments that have been brought even though he was specifically asked to respond to those things.Stating your original position as the response to questions about your original opinion is not a good response.

 

[JohnnyU]

I thought it was a very good response, even though I think Vick sucks.

It's a miserable response since it's basically repeating the same thing he's been saying ad nauseum without addressing any of the logical flaws subsequently exposed in his argument OR any of the factual counterarguments that have been brought even though he was specifically asked to respond to those things.Stating your original position as the response to questions about your original opinion is not a good response.

Well, frankly I didn't read his original response. As a mattar of fact, this thread is boring me. Excuse me while I go mind my own business now.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

I thought it was a very good response, even though I think Vick sucks.

It's a miserable response since it's basically repeating the same thing he's been saying ad nauseum without addressing any of the logical flaws subsequently exposed in his argument OR any of the factual counterarguments that have been brought even though he was specifically asked to respond to those things.Stating your original position as the response to questions about your original opinion is not a good response.

I am reinforcing my argument, because it seems you can not grasp it. You can't simply discount my argument because its based on more educated persons in the matter.

However, referencing authority may carry a high enough probability of truth that it would be correct to base decisions on it.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

I honestly would love to see who votes, what teams, managers, players vote etc. I would also love to hear the reasons of why those people voted M. Vick in compared to others QB's that were having better statistical seasons and their team was doing better or at least equal to him. Your answer is a cop out. Although we are just fans we can identify what should be classified as a probowl year. The people who voted him in are human and make plenty of mistakes all the time. Every single game their are mistakes made both by players coaches and so on. Furthermore, their are wrong draft moves, wrong players starting, wrong players traded etc. For example Shanahan made many great moves this off season but one of his mistakes was drafting M. Clarett. Do I think Shanahan deserves credit? Yes, but I must acknowledge that these guys make mistakes. IMO M. Vick being selected to the probowl this year was a mistake by whomever it was that selected him there. Right now all I see is phantom coaches, players etc voted him in. Well those phantoms made a mistake. Sometimes things happen that should not happen. Here is an anaolgy; remember the figure skating incident were the Canadian team was ripped off a Gold medal by these so called professionals who know figure skating much better then the average fan, but a huge mistake was made and petty fans like myself could see there was a mistake made and the Canadian team actually recieved a gold medal at a later date acknowleging that there was mistake made. Well, if you want to sit back and not offer or question these professionals go right ahead, but M. Vick did not have any where near a probowl year this year.Signed, one regular fan

 

[bobspruill]

I thought it was a very good response, even though I think Vick sucks.

It's a miserable response since it's basically repeating the same thing he's been saying ad nauseum without addressing any of the logical flaws subsequently exposed in his argument OR any of the factual counterarguments that have been brought even though he was specifically asked to respond to those things.Stating your original position as the response to questions about your original opinion is not a good response.

Okay, let's try this rationale for Vick's selection:1. Fan vote: Recognition and fan base are the two big factors that dictate this. For this reason, Eli Manning was the top vote-getting QB in the NFC. I doubt Vick was far behind, but you can't blame the selection on "fan ignorance," at least.

2. Player vote: Let's face it: the Pro Bowl is a place to go and have a little fun, and maybe play some football in between the...well, whatever else. Who do you want to send to the party? The guy you like and respect, the guy who's sensational to watch on the field? The guy you really really want to see succeed? In short, do you vote for Ron Mexico? No, f--- that. I'm voting for some uptight white boy like Eli or Bulger. Gee, that'll be a fun time. Maybe we can limbo!

3. Coach vote: When you put together a gameplan against the Rams, I guarantee you Bulger isn't the first bullet point on the list; against the Giants, it isn't Eli; against the Seahawks, it isn't Hasselbeck. I could go on. Against the Falcons, it's Michael Vick. Coaches show him respect when they're putting together their gameplans, and they show him respect when they cast All-Pro votes.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

Sometimes things happen that should not happen. Here is an anaolgy; remember the figure skating incident were the Canadian team was ripped off a Gold medal by these so called professionals who know figure skating much better then the average fan, but a huge mistake was made and petty fans like myself could see there was a mistake made and the Canadian team actually recieved a gold medal at a later date acknowleging that there was mistake made.

Well, if you want to sit back and not offer or question these professionals go right ahead, but M. Vick did not have any where near a probowl year this year.

That is a terrible analogy.The swing vote judge was coerced into voting the wrong way by the Russians/French. An agreement was made whereby the French would help the Russians win, and the Russians would help the French win the Ice Dancing competition. It was a deliberate mistake made. Once this information came out, they gave a gold medal to Sale and Pelletier.

Are you insinuating that the players and coaches were pressured into voting for Vick? LOL

No your argument is resting upon conspiracy theories. Well done.

 

[jurb26]

3. Coach vote: When you put together a gameplan against the Rams, I guarantee you Bulger isn't the first bullet point on the list; against the Giants, it isn't Eli; against the Seahawks, it isn't Hasselbeck. I could go on. Against the Falcons, it's Michael Vick. Coaches show him respect when they're putting together their gameplans, and they show him respect when they cast All-Pro votes.

This is all that really needs to be said. When will people finally realize that Vick has an effect on the field unlike any other QB? His numbers have yet to indicate the real value of him as a player in the NFL. The numbers of the Atl running game do however. What other QB whoudl have gone over Vick? Brunell and Bledsoe are the only ones that come to mind for me. Given those options I would probably vote Brunell personally, but I can fully unerstand why coaches and players would choose Vick. I'm sure if you sat in a room for 5 hours with a NFL deffensive coordinator he would both show and tell you all of the reasons why too.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

3. Coach vote: When you put together a gameplan against the Rams, I guarantee you Bulger isn't the first bullet point on the list; against the Giants, it isn't Eli; against the Seahawks, it isn't Hasselbeck. I could go on. Against the Falcons, it's Michael Vick. Coaches show him respect when they're putting together their gameplans, and they show him respect when they cast All-Pro votes.

This is all that really needs to be said. When will people finally realize that Vick has an effect on the field unlike any other QB? His numbers have yet to indicate the real value of him as a player in the NFL. The numbers of the Atl running game do however. What other QB whoudl have gone over Vick? Brunell and Bledsoe are the only ones that come to mind for me. Given those options I would probably vote Brunell personally, but I can fully unerstand why coaches and players would choose Vick. I'm sure if you sat in a room for 5 hours with a NFL deffensive coordinator he would both show and tell you all of the reasons why too.

But good players over come these obstacles and still have good statistical perfromances and if not good statistical years they should at least lead their team into the playoffs. M. Vick did neither of those this year and therefore did not deserve to go.

I am pretty sure defenses game planned for other pro bowl players as well. You don't think coaches plan for Gates, SA, Palmer, etc. The problem is those other probowl players just over came those game plans more so then Vick did THIS year. I agree that Vick is an awesome athlete that changes aspects of the game and does help his team win, but he also contributes to their loses as well.

 

[jurb26]

But good players over come these obstacles and still have good statistical perfromances and if not good statistical years they should at least lead their team into the playoffs. M. Vick did neither of those this year and therefore did not deserve to go.

I am pretty sure defenses game planned for other pro bowl players as well. You don't think coaches plan for Gates, SA, Palmer, etc. The problem is those other probowl players just over came those game plans more so then Vick did THIS year. I agree that Vick is an awesome athlete that changes aspects of the game and does help his team win, but he also contributes to their loses as well.

I don't think anyone can argue that. His 17 TOs would indicat a strong case for this.

 

[juveduke]

I don't think anyone can argue that. His 17 TOs would indicat a strong case for this.

Among his NFC peers he didn't do that bad with turnovers.Delhomme and Bledsoe had 22

Manning had 19

Brunell had 15

Hasselbeck had 11

IMO Brunell and Hass are the only QBs I would put in the pro bowl ahead of Vick this season.

 

[jurb26]

I don't think anyone can argue that. His 17 TOs would indicat a strong case for this.

Among his NFC peers he didn't do that bad with turnovers.Delhomme and Bledsoe had 22

Manning had 19

Brunell had 15

Hasselbeck had 11

IMO Brunell and Hass are the only QBs I would put in the pro bowl ahead of Vick this season.

Good call, hadn't realized that Delhomme had that many TOs. I think I would have voted for these QBs in the NFC:Hassy

Brunell

Vick

 

[PMENFAN]

He's probably the worst passing QB in the league. But, his legs give him the skill set to start. I honestly believe the Falcons were a better offense with Schaub at the helm, because they were a legit threat to throw the ball, opening up their running game more. It's like defending the triple option. Stack the line, and TRY to stop the falcons running game, because you know vick is not a true threat to beat you with his arm. He may occasionally beat you, but not consistently. IMHO, the Falcons are a playoff team if they get the ball into Vicks hands more as a runner, and not a QB, (yes RB) and let Schaub play the QB position.

 

[Dancing Bear]

I wish we had an idea of the criteria that the voters used ...Kyle Orton is getting brushed aside like a cheap whore, and yet he led the Chicago Bears to the Playoffs ...Brad Johnson led the Vikings in their turn-around and through that very credible winning streak.Marc Bulger and Donovan McNabb were among the tops in the league while they played. Is health a requirement for February?These 4 also should have gotten reasonable consideration IMHO.

 

[jwvdcw]

this is the worst poll I've ever seen...and this is coming from a guy who has started a lot of bad polls.

 

[BigRed]

What say you all?

I say I can't believe this question is being asked of a guy who was voted into the Pro Bowl by his peers and coaches 3 times in 4 years. Yes, he is a starting caliber QB and a better than average one at the least.

I can't believe how little you know about Pro Bowl voting. Not to mention that anyone still exists that thinks the Pro Bowl is a measurement of anything other than popularity. lol @ the Vickheads and how the "but they win when he plays!" thing snuck away into the night.

 

[jurb26]

What say you all?

I say I can't believe this question is being asked of a guy who was voted into the Pro Bowl by his peers and coaches 3 times in 4 years. Yes, he is a starting caliber QB and a better than average one at the least.

I can't believe how little you know about Pro Bowl voting. Not to mention that anyone still exists that thinks the Pro Bowl is a measurement of anything other than popularity. lol @ the Vickheads and how the "but they win when he plays!" thing snuck away into the night.

Let me guess, you don't think he should even be starting in the NFL..... riiiiight.

 

[PMENFAN]

Just to clarify. Isn't the Pro Bowl the fans selection, but the All Pro team is the peer selection? vick is a pro bowler, or popular player. Peyton Manning and Carson Palmer will be the All Pro Qb's.

 

[FBGPoker]

this is the worst poll I've ever seen.

 

[bobspruill]

Just to clarify. Isn't the Pro Bowl the fans selection, but the All Pro team is the peer selection?

vick is a pro bowler, or popular player. Peyton Manning and Carson Palmer will be the All Pro Qb's.

Participation in the Pro Bowl is based on the votes of fans, the votes of the players, and the votes of the coaches. Each of these three groups is weighted equally in deciding.

 

[jwvdcw]

What say you all?

I say I can't believe this question is being asked of a guy who was voted into the Pro Bowl by his peers and coaches 3 times in 4 years. Yes, he is a starting caliber QB and a better than average one at the least.

I can't believe how little you know about Pro Bowl voting. Not to mention that anyone still exists that thinks the Pro Bowl is a measurement of anything other than popularity. lol @ the Vickheads and how the "but they win when he plays!" thing snuck away into the night.

He was not voted in by the fans(popularity contest). He got his selection because the coaches/players voted him in. Are you really saying that Vick just got in because hes popular with the coaches?

 

[jwvdcw]

Just to clarify.  Isn't the Pro Bowl the fans selection, but the All Pro team is the peer selection?

vick is a pro bowler, or popular player.  Peyton Manning and Carson Palmer will be the All Pro Qb's.

Participation in the Pro Bowl is based on the votes of fans, the votes of the players, and the votes of the coaches. Each of these three groups is weighted equally in deciding.

And they release the fans vote before the final vote. Based upon fan voting E Manning, not Vick, made it. The coaches/players are the ones that voted Vick in.

 

[bobspruill]

What say you all?

I say I can't believe this question is being asked of a guy who was voted into the Pro Bowl by his peers and coaches 3 times in 4 years. Yes, he is a starting caliber QB and a better than average one at the least.

I can't believe how little you know about Pro Bowl voting. Not to mention that anyone still exists that thinks the Pro Bowl is a measurement of anything other than popularity. lol @ the Vickheads and how the "but they win when he plays!" thing snuck away into the night.

You can't blame Vick for that. In fact, for all the talk that he's the worst passer in the NFL, he's not--by a long way. Atlanta's net passing yards / attempt is 6.00--21st in the NFL, 10th in the NFC. In other words, about average. When you consider the contribution he makes to the best rushing attack in the NFL (4.92 yards / attempt--1st *even though* they had the most rushing attempts of any team), objectively you simply can't say that the offense Vick leads is anything but good.If you want to know why the Falcons aren't in the playoffs, look no further than the rush defense. Opponents averaged 4.59 yards per rushing attempt against the Falcons this year--a stinky 29th in the NFL.

 

[Tau837]

What say you all?

I say I can't believe this question is being asked of a guy who was voted into the Pro Bowl by his peers and coaches 3 times in 4 years. Yes, he is a starting caliber QB and a better than average one at the least.

I can't believe how little you know about Pro Bowl voting. Not to mention that anyone still exists that thinks the Pro Bowl is a measurement of anything other than popularity. lol @ the Vickheads and how the "but they win when he plays!" thing snuck away into the night.

You can't blame Vick for that. In fact, for all the talk that he's the worst passer in the NFL, he's not--by a long way. Atlanta's net passing yards / attempt is 6.00--21st in the NFL, 10th in the NFC. In other words, about average. When you consider the contribution he makes to the best rushing attack in the NFL (4.92 yards / attempt--1st *even though* they had the most rushing attempts of any team), objectively you simply can't say that the offense Vick leads is anything but good.If you want to know why the Falcons aren't in the playoffs, look no further than the rush defense. Opponents averaged 4.59 yards per rushing attempt against the Falcons this year--a stinky 29th in the NFL.

I have given up trying to convince others here of Vick's worth. He is a rare player who changes the game before he even steps on the field, similar to Lawrence Taylor and Deion Sanders, other guys who were game planned around to a degree far beyond their peers. Oh, and Vick is only 25. He still has plenty of time to improve statistically as a passer.

 

[BigRed]

changes the game before he even steps on the field, similar to Lawrence Taylor and Deion Sanders.

LMAO speaking of players highly overrated due to their popularity (which is itself a bizarro mystery)....lol @ the "great CB" who can't tackle, relies mostly on speed, and whose good but overrated cover skills have been exposed more than a few times in his career.

As once again the fact that Vick is simply has not been a consistently good QB is conveniently sidestepped. Yeah they suck because of the D, that's it. Funny how when they were winning it was Vick leading the way, not their D.

 

[Tau837]

changes the game before he even steps on the field, similar to Lawrence Taylor and Deion Sanders.

LMAO speaking of players highly overrated due to their popularity (which is itself a bizarro mystery)....lol @ the "great CB" who can't tackle, relies mostly on speed, and whose good but overrated cover skills have been exposed more than a few times in his career.

You are simply showing your ignorance.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Whether Vick should be in the Pro Bowl is a legitimate question. It's close.Whether Vick should be a starting QB is not close.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Kyle Orton is getting brushed aside like a cheap whore, and yet he led the Chicago Bears to the Playoffs ...

LOL. Kyle Orton was the worst starting QB in the league this year.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I like the way ProTrade.com measures players' value. (Read about it here.)

They rank the QBs' values for this season as follows:

1 Manning, P.

2 Brady, T.

3 Palmer, C.

4 Hasselbeck, M.

5 Plummer, J.

6 Vick, M.

7 Brees, D.

8 Green, T.

9 Roethlisberger, B.

10 Manning, E.

11 Bulger, M.

12 Brooks, A.

13 Bledsoe, D.

14 Leftwich, B.

15 Favre, B.

16 Brunell, M.

17 McNair, S.

18 Warner, K.

19 McNabb, D.

20 Collins, K.

21 Delhomme, J.

22 Garrard, D.

23 Martin, J.

24 Griese, B.

25 Culpepper, D.

26 Johnson, B.

27 Fitzpatrick, R.

28 Boller, K.

29 Wright, A.

30 McCown, J.

31 Batch, C.

32 Sorgi, J.

.

.

.

114 Smith, A.

115 Orton, K.

 

[KevT]

What say you all?

I say I can't believe this question is being asked of a guy who was voted into the Pro Bowl by his peers and coaches 3 times in 4 years. Yes, he is a starting caliber QB and a better than average one at the least.

I can't believe how little you know about Pro Bowl voting. Not to mention that anyone still exists that thinks the Pro Bowl is a measurement of anything other than popularity. lol @ the Vickheads and how the "but they win when he plays!" thing snuck away into the night.

You can't blame Vick for that. In fact, for all the talk that he's the worst passer in the NFL, he's not--by a long way. Atlanta's net passing yards / attempt is 6.00--21st in the NFL, 10th in the NFC. In other words, about average. When you consider the contribution he makes to the best rushing attack in the NFL (4.92 yards / attempt--1st *even though* they had the most rushing attempts of any team), objectively you simply can't say that the offense Vick leads is anything but good.If you want to know why the Falcons aren't in the playoffs, look no further than the rush defense. Opponents averaged 4.59 yards per rushing attempt against the Falcons this year--a stinky 29th in the NFL.

I have given up trying to convince others here of Vick's worth. He is a rare player who changes the game before he even steps on the field, similar to Lawrence Taylor and Deion Sanders, other guys who were game planned around to a degree far beyond their peers. Oh, and Vick is only 25. He still has plenty of time to improve statistically as a passer.

And why was their rush defense so bad? Because Vick's contract made the Falcons cut and not able to resign key players. For example, Draft(carolina) and Jasper(oakland).

 

[jwvdcw]

changes the game before he even steps on the field, similar to Lawrence Taylor and Deion Sanders.

LMAO speaking of players highly overrated due to their popularity (which is itself a bizarro mystery)....lol @ the "great CB" who can't tackle, relies mostly on speed, and whose good but overrated cover skills have been exposed more than a few times in his career.

As once again the fact that Vick is simply has not been a consistently good QB is conveniently sidestepped. Yeah they suck because of the D, that's it. Funny how when they were winning it was Vick leading the way, not their D.

Here are their defensive stats:2002: 16th in passing, 23rd in rushing, 8th in points allowed

2003: 32nd in passing, 29th in rushing, 30th in points allowed

2004: 22nd in passing, 9th in rushing, 14th in points allowed

2005: 12th in passing, 22nd in rushing, 15th in points allowed

What about their D is anything above average?

In fact, what about their WR or RB or O-line is anything above average?

The fact is that team is terrible- they are 2-11 without Vick. In fact, without Vick, they'd be in the Reggie Bush sweepstakes right now- they are that bad. Vick is that damn good though that he, by himself, makes them into an 8-11 win team.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

In fact, what about their WR or RB or O-line is anything above average?

Warrick Dunn is darn good (and underrated). Alge Crumper is above average.

 

[KevT]

In fact, what about their WR or RB or O-line is anything above average?

Warrick Dunn is darn good (and underrated). Alge Crumper is above average.

Roddy White has made a lot of nice plays this year, he doesn't get too many opportunities because the throws aren't accurate. O-line for rushing is WAY above average, and who knows how they are for pass blocking, you can't really block for a QB that moves around as much as Vick. Included Maurile's post, because of Dunn.

 

[rhawkins68]

If my argument rests on the opinion of the NFL players and coaches, thats fine. That holds alot more water than the opinion of some casual fans who think they know it all.

Which coaches and players voted for Vick? Where can we find the records on who voted which way? Link?

 

[Da Guru]

Vick should be a starter in the NFL, although he never will be a good passer as long as he can still run he will probably start in this league. When his legs go and he blows a knee out he will no longer be able to play in the NFL. As far as being a Pro-Bowl QB..Vick is far from that.

 

[rhawkins68]

I thought it was a very good response, even though I think Vick sucks.

It's a miserable response since it's basically repeating the same thing he's been saying ad nauseum without addressing any of the logical flaws subsequently exposed in his argument OR any of the factual counterarguments that have been brought even though he was specifically asked to respond to those things.Stating your original position as the response to questions about your original opinion is not a good response.

Your not taking into account how he helps the defense where other QB's such as Eli, Bledsoe, etc do not. Please use all of the facts.

Look at the fact that Dunn and duckett couldn't run without the threat of Vick running. Take in comparison LT2 if Brees wasn't such a threat he'd never be able to run or Preist Holmes and Larry Johnson. It's the threat of Green that makes them so good. They spend so much time game planning against Green that Holmes is made so much better. Imagine if the Chiefs add good WR's.

Besides he just Wins (when he's not hurt) check the record if you don't believe me.

Also, you leave out the fact he brings fans to the stadium and he's exciting to watch. I mean otherwise football is just boring.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

I like the way ProTrade.com measures players' value. (Read about it here.)

They rank the QBs' values for this season as follows:

1 Manning, P.

2 Brady, T.

3 Palmer, C.

4 Hasselbeck, M.

5 Plummer, J.

6 Vick, M.

7 Brees, D.

8 Green, T.

9 Roethlisberger, B.

10 Manning, E.

11 Bulger, M.

12 Brooks, A.

13 Bledsoe, D.

14 Leftwich, B.

15 Favre, B.

16 Brunell, M.

17 McNair, S.

18 Warner, K.

19 McNabb, D.

20 Collins, K.

21 Delhomme, J.

22 Garrard, D.

23 Martin, J.

24 Griese, B.

25 Culpepper, D.

26 Johnson, B.

27 Fitzpatrick, R.

28 Boller, K.

29 Wright, A.

30 McCown, J.

31 Batch, C.

32 Sorgi, J.

.

.

.

114 Smith, A.

115 Orton, K.

The list has some major flaws: Vick ahead of Roethlesiberger, Delhomme, Brees and Bledsoe this year Delhomme at 21

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I like the way ProTrade.com measures players' value. (Read about it here.)

They rank the QBs' values for this season as follows:

1 Manning, P.

2 Brady, T.

3 Palmer, C.

4 Hasselbeck, M.

5 Plummer, J.

6 Vick, M.

7 Brees, D.

8 Green, T.

9 Roethlisberger, B.

10 Manning, E.

11 Bulger, M.

12 Brooks, A.

13 Bledsoe, D.

14 Leftwich, B.

15 Favre, B.

16 Brunell, M.

17 McNair, S.

18 Warner, K.

19 McNabb, D.

20 Collins, K.

21 Delhomme, J.

22 Garrard, D.

23 Martin, J.

24 Griese, B.

25 Culpepper, D.

26 Johnson, B.

27 Fitzpatrick, R.

28 Boller, K.

29 Wright, A.

30 McCown, J.

31 Batch, C.

32 Sorgi, J.

.

.

.

114 Smith, A.

115 Orton, K.

The list has some major flaws: Vick ahead of Roethlesiberger, Delhomme, Brees and Bledsoe this year Delhomme at 21

Did you read the link about how the dividends are compiled? I can't think of a more meaningful way to do it.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

I like the way ProTrade.com measures players' value. (Read about it here.)

They rank the QBs' values for this season as follows:

1 Manning, P. 

2 Brady, T.

3 Palmer, C.

4 Hasselbeck, M.

5 Plummer, J.

6 Vick, M.

7 Brees, D.

8 Green, T.

9 Roethlisberger, B.

10 Manning, E.

11 Bulger, M.

12 Brooks, A.

13 Bledsoe, D.

14 Leftwich, B.

15 Favre, B.

16 Brunell, M.

17 McNair, S.

18 Warner, K.

19 McNabb, D.

20 Collins, K.

21 Delhomme, J.

22 Garrard, D.

23 Martin, J.

24 Griese, B.

25 Culpepper, D.

26 Johnson, B.

27 Fitzpatrick, R.

28 Boller, K.

29 Wright, A.

30 McCown, J.

31 Batch, C.

32 Sorgi, J.

.

.

.

114 Smith, A.

115 Orton, K.

The list has some major flaws: Vick ahead of Roethlesiberger, Delhomme, Brees and Bledsoe this year Delhomme at 21

Did you read the link about how the dividends are compiled? I can't think of a more meaningful way to do it.

Yes, I read it all and agree with plenty of it. However, it is far from perfect, and has some major flaws being Delhomme as the number 21st QB valued in the NFL this season. I can't think of more of a flaw in a system when a starting QB who has thrown for 22 TD's, 3258 yds, 7.85 ypa, and has his team at a 10-5 record can only be considered as the 21st most valuable QB to his team in the NFL

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I can't think of more of a flaw in a system when a starting QB who has thrown for 22 TD's, 3258 yds, 7.85 ypa, and has his team at a 10-5 record can only be considered as the 21st most valuable QB to his team in the NFL

More yards isn't always better. Six yards on third and five is worth more than ten yards on third and fifteen. ProTrade takes this into account, and the resulting list is based entirely on the stats.In any event, it's clear that Vick is good.

 

[Banger]

I thought it was a very good response, even though I think Vick sucks.

It's a miserable response since it's basically repeating the same thing he's been saying ad nauseum without addressing any of the logical flaws subsequently exposed in his argument OR any of the factual counterarguments that have been brought even though he was specifically asked to respond to those things.Stating your original position as the response to questions about your original opinion is not a good response.

Take in comparison LT2 if Brees wasn't such a threat he'd never be able to run or Preist Holmes and Larry Johnson. It's the threat of Green that makes them so good. They spend so much time game planning against Green that Holmes is made so much better. Imagine if the Chiefs add good WR's.

This is laughable, LT had his best season when Brees was awful and lost his job to Flutie. Brees is only decent because he has LT as the threat not the other way around.

As far as KC, it certainly isn't Green that makes Preist/LJ such great runners it's their all-pro line that allows them to go untouched for 5 yards on most plays....

over...

 

[rhawkins68]

I thought it was a very good response, even though I think Vick sucks.

It's a miserable response since it's basically repeating the same thing he's been saying ad nauseum without addressing any of the logical flaws subsequently exposed in his argument OR any of the factual counterarguments that have been brought even though he was specifically asked to respond to those things.Stating your original position as the response to questions about your original opinion is not a good response.

Take in comparison LT2 if Brees wasn't such a threat he'd never be able to run or Preist Holmes and Larry Johnson. It's the threat of Green that makes them so good. They spend so much time game planning against Green that Holmes is made so much better. Imagine if the Chiefs add good WR's.

This is laughable, LT had his best season when Brees was awful and lost his job to Flutie. Brees is only decent because he has LT as the threat not the other way around.

As far as KC, it certainly isn't Green that makes Preist/LJ such great runners it's their all-pro line that allows them to go untouched for 5 yards on most plays....

over...

Never said it wasn't. But these Vick threads are all the same. You have the Supporters on one side and the Haters on the other. NO clear discussion is ever had. So what not post laughable content. The whole discussion is wasted regardless in any thread concerning Vick.If I mention his foot work and importance of it in the West Coast no one would listen. Easier to just go with the flow of uninformed one sided arguments.

My opinion is all Vick threads should be locked and deleted as soon as possible.

 

[Da Guru]

Vick just wins is also very flawed! This year he will be on 8-8When Vick got hurt a couple of years ago the Falcons only had a pathetic Doug Johnson to take over..no wonder they lost. Had the Falcons had maybe a Gus Ferotte they would have been OK. There is no doubt that Matt Schuab would step in now and make the Falcons more effective on offense. The game he stepped in he threw for over 300 yards and 3 TDs (I know the Falcons lost that game) but Schuab gave his team the lead twice late in the game and the D did not hold it.

 

[Jason Wood]

Vick just wins is also very flawed! This year he will be on 8-8

When Vick got hurt a couple of years ago the Falcons only had a pathetic Doug Johnson to take over..no wonder they lost. Had the Falcons had maybe a Gus Ferotte they would have been OK.

There is no doubt that Matt Schuab would step in now and make the Falcons more effective on offense. The game he stepped in he threw for over 300 yards and 3 TDs (I know the Falcons lost that game) but Schuab gave his team the lead twice late in the game and the D did not hold it.

The problem the Falcons have is not dissimilar to the majority of other teams. Their QB, CURRENTLY, isn't good enough to lead them to a SB title without a LOT of help elsewhere [i.e., a great defense, solid running game]. Until Vick can change [or evolve or improve, choose the verb] his game enough to perform against top notch, disciplined defenses, the Falcons have an overpriced asset. But to say he can't or won't ever make that leap forward isnt' fair either.

Michael Vick is six months younger than Carson Palmer...let's not forget that.

 

[Gr00vus]

I thought it was a very good response, even though I think Vick sucks.

It's a miserable response since it's basically repeating the same thing he's been saying ad nauseum without addressing any of the logical flaws subsequently exposed in his argument OR any of the factual counterarguments that have been brought even though he was specifically asked to respond to those things.Stating your original position as the response to questions about your original opinion is not a good response.

Your not taking into account how he helps the defense where other QB's such as Eli, Bledsoe, etc do not. Please use all of the facts.

Look at the fact that Dunn and duckett couldn't run without the threat of Vick running. Take in comparison LT2 if Brees wasn't such a threat he'd never be able to run or Preist Holmes and Larry Johnson. It's the threat of Green that makes them so good. They spend so much time game planning against Green that Holmes is made so much better. Imagine if the Chiefs add good WR's.

Besides he just Wins (when he's not hurt) check the record if you don't believe me.

Also, you leave out the fact he brings fans to the stadium and he's exciting to watch. I mean otherwise football is just boring.

You're still a master of

 

[Gr00vus]

If you want to know why the Falcons aren't in the playoffs, look no further than the rush defense. Opponents averaged 4.59 yards per rushing attempt against the Falcons this year--a stinky 29th in the NFL.

So then the thing that's really been determining the Falcons' success or failure is the defense moreso than Vick? Interesting, that sounds like a familiar theory.......