Should replay challenges be allowed for penalties? (1 Viewer)

[ghostguy123]

How would one extra challenge really affect the game, though?  Plus, I bet Saints fans would've welcomed the game going an extra 4 minutes longer to get the call correct.

Game woulda been a lot shorter actually

 

[TheIronSheik]

If you set a precedent for making major rule changes based on one high-profile incident, how long will it take until there’s another high profile incident which demands a small expansion to the rule or a new rule? Adding a second challenge,  more reviews, expanding the list of reviewable plays? The aggrieved coach and fans will say it’s jusy one small addition to the existing rule, to prevent a grave injustice.  The game has changed so much in my lifetime, I’m pretty much already lost as a fan. It’s the same with college football and the obsession with perfecting something that inherently depends on humans acting in the moment, under pressure and sometimes making mistakes. Far better to accept the imperfections than try to fix something that doesn’t need fixing imo. 

I totally get what you're saying.  And I agree that it'll never be perfect and trying to do so can actually make the game worse.  But if you're already using replay for almost everything else, why exclude a penalty like this?  

 

[Thorpe]

There are a lot more plays that can be challenged without allowing everything.  Some things replay is good at, other things not so much...

For Def PI, if there is obvious contact, challenge whether the contact was made before or after the ball got to the WR.  Or challenge if the pass was deflected.

Roughing the passer (not late hit), challenge if the contact was to the head or not.

 

[TheIronSheik]

So argumentative, you are persistent about getting the last word in I'll give you that. 

I will say this, I've been thinking it over and I'm sure you're right, the NFL will end up having booth reviews for penalties.  I don't think it's the end of the world, I'm sure it will be fine.  I would really like it if the NFL would hold the referees accountable though.  I mean, players get penalized for things they do wrong on the field, if they make mistakes they get benched.  I guess I don't understand why referees that make bad calls don't get dinged in some sort of point system you know?  Why they don't get moved down to college football for bad calls, etc.  I don't know just thinking out loud.

I think you're confusing "discussion" and "argument."  I created this thread to have a discussion.  I apologize if you took it anyway other than that.

 

[TheIronSheik]

There is no solution that will make everyone happy. 

Humans are imperfect and will never get every call correct. No matter how many refs you hire.

I don't think they should be allowed to review "non-calls" as I think that will make the refs just throw even more flags.

The question will be how do you decide when to overturn calls? Just like turnovers? Go into any game thread and you have half the group disagreeing already.  That Brady roughing the passer call sure didn't "look" like a penalty, but would that even be enough to overturn it? I think this will just cause even more confusion and anger when a call doesn't go the way one team wants it to.

I totally agree.  

 

[Ilov80s]

There is no solution that will make everyone happy. 

Humans are imperfect and will never get every call correct. No matter how many refs you hire.

I don't think they should be allowed to review "non-calls" as I think that will make the refs just throw even more flags.

The question will be how do you decide when to overturn calls? Just like turnovers? Go into any game thread and you have half the group disagreeing already.  That Brady roughing the passer call sure didn't "look" like a penalty, but would that even be enough to overturn it? I think this will just cause even more confusion and anger when a call doesn't go the way one team wants it to.

Which is why the whole replay process is futile and just needs to go away. It only slows down the game and sucks the fun out of the game. 

 

[Warrior]

As I mentioned in a similar discussion in the Shark Pool, the issue will be that coaches will save their challenges for when they absolutely need them. Give up an 80 yard bomb on defense? Challenge for holding on a lineman. Throw a pick six? Challenge for hands to the face on the D line. There are penalties on almost very play. There is holding or pass interference on pretty much on each play. Every big play in the game would run the risk of getting wiped out. IMO, things could get WORSE, as coaches will challenge penalties away from the ball that had no bearing on the play itself. So a 60 yard sweep to the left could be negated by a jersey pull by the WR on the right side of the field.

I get that people want to isolate THAT ONE PLAY that may have made a huge difference in any given game, but it's the results of the other 99% of plays that people will scream about.

This is the correct answer and the reason that they don't take OP's suggestion.

 

[Foosball God]

Sheik is back?  When did this happen?

@TheIronSheik 

 

[TheIronSheik]

Sheik is back?  When did this happen?

@TheIronSheik 

I'm coming back on a trial basis.  

 

[Ilov80s]

Agree. Especially when "indisputable evidence" seems to not be the case most of the time.

Right, we still see receptions/drops/TDs/non-TDs where there is disagreement after we have seen every angle at slow motion. 

 

[TheIronSheik]

So I'm not judging you guys, just asking:

Are you saying,  if it was your call, you'd remove instant replay all together?  Speed over accuracy?  Again, nothing wrong with that.  

 

[AAABatteries]

As I mentioned in a similar discussion in the Shark Pool, the issue will be that coaches will save their challenges for when they absolutely need them. Give up an 80 yard bomb on defense? Challenge for holding on a lineman. Throw a pick six? Challenge for hands to the face on the D line. There are penalties on almost very play. There is holding or pass interference on pretty much on each play. Every big play in the game would run the risk of getting wiped out. IMO, things could get WORSE, as coaches will challenge penalties away from the ball that had no bearing on the play itself. So a 60 yard sweep to the left could be negated by a jersey pull by the WR on the right side of the field.

I get that people want to isolate THAT ONE PLAY that may have made a huge difference in any given game, but it's the results of the other 99% of plays that people will scream about.

This is a really good point and has me disagreeing with myself.  My initial reaction was “sure, why not?”  But your post has me thinking that it would be a horrible idea.

 

[Ilov80s]

So I'm not judging you guys, just asking:

Are you saying,  if it was your call, you'd remove instant replay all together?  Speed over accuracy?  Again, nothing wrong with that.  

Yes. Replay gone for the sake of speed, flow and fun. 

 

[MikeMan]

They've expanded what can be a reviewable play before and should do so again. PIs and Personal Foul headshots can be absolutely game-changing one way or another.

Another facet of this that people don't talk about is the gambling. If I'm not mistaken, refs make under 6 figures and can't have another job. Whether I remember that correctly or not, if you think at least some, if not most, of the refs don't have juice on the games they call, I believe you are sadly naive. And with state-by-state gambling becoming more prevalent, it's only going to get bigger. Refs, through family, friends, or just online accounts with a username, can place bets on the games. If the average Joe wins at a 50% rate, with just a couple calls here or there going your way, an insider like that could bump it to, say, 65-75%. That can turn into real money!  

Taking away at least the 40-50 yard blown PI calls would make a huge difference in a positive way.

 

[Anarchy99]

If I'm not mistaken, refs make under 6 figures and can't have another job.

Refs will make an average of $203,000 next season. The league started hiring full time officials in 2017. Many (most?) have careers/jobs outside of football.

 

[Hov34]

Just hire better refs 

Or more of them during playoffs.  Baseball does.

 

[Hov34]

So I'm not judging you guys, just asking:

Are you saying,  if it was your call, you'd remove instant replay all together?  Speed over accuracy?  Again, nothing wrong with that.  

No, if we want to get it right, I don't care how long it takes.  But if you want the wrong team winning so you can have a 2 1/2 hour game, more power to you, I guess.

 

[Da Guru]

I know an SEC ref.  All refs are taped individually in every game for review.

We were having drinks one night and he told me what you see on the field in a bang bang play and what he saw on the same play in slow motion tape looks so different.  This guy was warned for not calling a helmet to helmet when he was a back judge...he told me I was right next to the play and I thought contact was to the shoulder area.

Tough job when everything is reviewed in slow motion.      But not the Saints call...one of two should have got it correct.

 

[Mr. Ected]

The game is similar to the Bears/Rams. Yea there was one play at the end that screwed it up for the team that lost, but there were a bunch of plays earlier that they screwed up the game by themselves.

 

[ChainsawU]

Which is why the whole replay process is futile and just needs to go away. It only slows down the game and sucks the fun out of the game. 

well it certainly does suck

 

[Ilov80s]

No, if we want to get it right, I don't care how long it takes.  But if you want the wrong team winning so you can have a 2 1/2 hour game, more power to you, I guess.

Then every play should be reviewed several times to make sure there were no missed penalties. We will have to eliminate up tempo play calling to ensure each play is “right.” 

Also where were all these screens to fix replay when it was the no-call PI that knocked the Lions out of the playoffs? 

 

[BoltBacker]

I understand that.  But what I said was that if there's an actual penalty, then why should a play be allowed to stand, just because it was a huge play?  If there was holding on the "Miracle in Miami", then why should it count?  Is your argument simply that because it was a great play, it shouldn't be subjected to the rules of the game?

No. As has been stated multiple times in this thread, it's my argument that you COULD call a penalty on 99% of plays in the NFL whether they are great plays or not. It would be more of a shame if every great play was wiped out, and I would suspect that most teams would use their replay reviews to wipe out the most pivotal plays in the game. While we, as an audience, sit and wait to find out whether we can even cheer for what happened or not.

If you just take the simple rule: "“it is a foul if a player lowers his head to initiate and make contact with his helmet against an opponent.”..... that one rule infraction ALONE happens on most NFL plays by someone on the field. Add in the hands to the face and holding call and I don't think there are any plays where none of the 22 players on the field commits a penalty if reviewed in slow motion from many different angles.

 

[ghostguy123]

Why are people freaking out about this possibility?  Not EVERY type of penalty would be reviewable.  Plus there would only be like 1 or 2 per team allowed anyway.  Or even a guy in the booth who reverses the obviously horrible calls or non calls.

Maybe add 5-10 minutes to the game tops.  Well worth it if it means horrendous calls and non calls are reversed.

This notion that every huge play will get reviewed and taken away is silly.  However,  If a WR is smashed out of bounds 2 seconds before the ball arrives and the D takes it back for a TD, with no PI call, we want that "great" play to stand? C'mon now.  Maybe if it's your team or your fantasy defense I guess.  

The bad calls are getting worse and worse lately.  I am less upset with the calls themselves and getting more upset the NFL has not implemented a way to correct those obviously horrific calls and non calls.  

 

[Mr.Pack]

Haven't read the whole thread, but Belichick has a great plan, makes so much sense the NFL will never do it.

Keep the challenges to 2-3, but allow anything to be challenged, when you're out, you're out. Simple and to the point.

 

[BoltBacker]

I understand that.  But what I said was that if there's an actual penalty, then why should a play be allowed to stand, just because it was a huge play?  If there was holding on the "Miracle in Miami", then why should it count?  Is your argument simply that because it was a great play, it shouldn't be subjected to the rules of the game?

And what I said is there is a penalty that could be called somewhere on the field on almost every play. Do you disagree with that?

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

How about having a panel of 5 people watching a game, either random people or an additional part of the referees. They watch the broadcast feed. They each have a buzzer. If at least 3 of the 5 feel it needs review , it goes to review. Those same 5 then vote to uphold or over turn the call. You would need at least 3 of the 5 to over turn the call. 

 I like this idea. Don't have to mess with the current challenge system. They could even show indicators on TV broadcasts when the buzzers light up, like America's Got Talent.  

 

[TheIronSheik]

And what I said is there is a penalty that could be called somewhere on the field on almost every play. Do you disagree with that?

Kind of.  But I understand what you're saying.  Obviously I'm just spitballing here, but even if they only allowed certain types of penalties or if the penalties were egregious enough or actually affected the outcome.  

 

[TheIronSheik]

Just read an article about the AAF league starting this weekend.  It says that the league has added a 9th official who will sit in the booth and be able to make calls or reversals in real time without the use of instant replay.  This is exactly what I said the NFL should do.  It'll be interesting to see how this works.  Maybe the NFL will be taking notes.

 

[TheIronSheik]

I love that everyone complained until Goodell came out and said, "Look.  We've tried to pass this rule before and the teams voted against it."  And sportswriters ripped on him saying it wasn't true and he should change the rules.

Yet, here we are again.  The change to the rules has been suggested and there is not enough support amongst owners to get it to pass.  I don't ever want to hear an owner of a team complain, write an open letter, or call out the NFL for not fixing a blown call.  You made your bed, now lie in it.

 

[ghostguy123]

I love that everyone complained until Goodell came out and said, "Look.  We've tried to pass this rule before and the teams voted against it."  And sportswriters ripped on him saying it wasn't true and he should change the rules.

Yet, here we are again.  The change to the rules has been suggested and there is not enough support amongst owners to get it to pass.  I don't ever want to hear an owner of a team complain, write an open letter, or call out the NFL for not fixing a blown call.  You made your bed, now lie in it.

Did all 32 owners vote it down?

 

[TheIronSheik]

Did all 32 owners vote it down?

Not all.  Needs like 24 teams to vote in favor of it.  Article just said it didn't have enough votes to pass.

 

[ghostguy123]

Not all.  Needs like 24 teams to vote in favor of it.  Article just said it didn't have enough votes to pass.

So why cant an owner speak out on this?  I am confused.  Unless they voted it down, not sure why an owner cant speak out on this topic.

Seems rather obtuse.

 

[Henry Ford]

Sorry I missed this thread the first time around. 

No, penalties should not be reviewable.  However, it should not be a crime to shoot an official in, like, the leg.  As long as he doesn't actually die.  

 

[Gally]

I still think much of this could be solved by having an additional ref or two in the booth watching the game and able to make calls in real time.  No review.  Just a couple additional sets of eyes removed from the field with better views of certain situations that can call penalties as need be.  Buzz down to the head official to throw a flag, huddle like they do now, tell them the call and move on.  No need for additional reviews.  I believe this would help 90% of the obviously missed calls.  

 

[TheIronSheik]

So why cant an owner speak out on this?  I am confused.  Unless they voted it down, not sure why an owner cant speak out on this topic.

Seems rather obtuse.

The problem is that the owners only think it's an issue when it happens to them.  I'd be willing to bet the house that if we could see the voting history of this subject, we'd probably find out that New Orleans voted against it a couple of times.  

If an owner wants to complain about this not being reviewable, I think they should show his voting record on the subject.  If he's always voted for it, then I'm okay with it.  But I'm guessing no one can make that claim.

 

[brettdj]

Sorry I missed this thread the first time around. 

No, penalties should not be reviewable.  However, it should not be a crime to shoot an official in, like, the leg.  As long as he doesn't actually die.  

I hope this is a joke, but unfortunately many parents of 10-12 year old kids are acting like this would be ok. 

 

[TheIronSheik]

I hope this is a joke, but unfortunately many parents of 10-12 year old kids are acting like this would be ok. 

Why would you think this is a joke? 

 

[Henry Ford]

I hope this is a joke, but unfortunately many parents of 10-12 year old kids are acting like this would be ok. 

I'm a Saints fan.

 

[TheIronSheik]

I'm a Saints fan.

I remember when I inadvertently offended an entire room of New Orleansites? New Orleansians? People from New Orleans.

I took a job in Covington and arrived at my hotel on Saturday night.  I started work on Monday.  As I introduced myself to the 20 people in the room, I started telling stories of what I used to do.  How I went to Libya, got lost in the Sahara, spent a sleepless night in the slums of Anaco, Venezuela, had FSB agents question me because I yelled "WOLVERINES!!!!" in Red Square, and many other exploits from my international travels.  Then, one person said, "Wow.  That's awesome.  Did you get a chance to go check out downtown New Orleans yet?"  To which I replied, "No way.  That place scares me."

In essence, I told them their American city was scarier than any other third world country I had been to.  And while I still stand by my assessment, I know now I shouldn't have voiced my opinion to that crowd.  My bad. 

 

[Henry Ford]

I remember when I inadvertently offended an entire room of New Orleansites? New Orleansians? People from New Orleans.

I took a job in Covington and arrived at my hotel on Saturday night.  I started work on Monday.  As I introduced myself to the 20 people in the room, I started telling stories of what I used to do.  How I went to Libya, got lost in the Sahara, spent a sleepless night in the slums of Anaco, Venezuela, had FSB agents question me because I yelled "WOLVERINES!!!!" in Red Square, and many other exploits from my international travels.  Then, one person said, "Wow.  That's awesome.  Did you get a chance to go check out downtown New Orleans yet?"  To which I replied, "No way.  That place scares me."

In essence, I told them their American city was scarier than any other third world country I had been to.  And while I still stand by my assessment, I know now I shouldn't have voiced my opinion to that crowd.  My bad. 

"Drug Addicts"

 

[Anarchy99]

I have heard a couple of places already that making changes to instant replay, adding more video review from the booth, or having the ability to challenge penalties is not getting much love across the league. None of those options appear to be close to getting adapted. In fact, they may be so far away that those options may not even get to an official vote. There are just too many teams that would rather have the system as it stands than risk making things worse. Maybe there will be more movement at the owner's meetings in a few weeks / months, but for now it doesn't look like there will be any changes on the horizon.

 

[brettdj]

Why would you think this is a joke? 

I hope this is a joke on this website.  How would violence to an official after the game help anything.

Soon youth sports may disappear, because there will be no officials.  High School JV games in some areas are being cancelled because of lack of officials.

Officials are leaving the game because of the abuse from parents, coaches, and fans.  I think the NFL/NBA/NCAA/MLB should not fine the coaches and players for their comments on the officiating.  But should require them to take the classes and become an official in their local high school leagues. 

I work NCAA/HS football.  Half the coaches do not know the rules of the game. 

 

[IC FBGCav]

I never understood why not.  You'd still only get a limited amount of challenges (same as now), but the Saints could've thrown a red flag (or if under 2 minutes, had a booth review) and all the controversy goes away.  

If a guy has his facemask pulled and it's not called, why not let the coach throw a flag and get the call right?  What is the downside to this?

I think the NFL should be ref'ed from the booth unless you are ok with what happened with the Saints.  I think this is a tipping point one way or the other.

 

[TheIronSheik]

I hope this is a joke on this website.  How would violence to an official after the game help anything.

Soon youth sports may disappear, because there will be no officials.  High School JV games in some areas are being cancelled because of lack of officials.

Officials are leaving the game because of the abuse from parents, coaches, and fans.  I think the NFL/NBA/NCAA/MLB should not fine the coaches and players for their comments on the officiating.  But should require them to take the classes and become an official in their local high school leagues. 

I work NCAA/HS football.  Half the coaches do not know the rules of the game. 

Wait.  Just so we're clear here:  You really don't think people should be allowed to shoot refs if they make a horrendous call in a game?  I mean, I get not allowing it if it's a ticky tack call or something that isn't obvious.  But you're telling me that if a ref misses an obvious call, you're just going to let him go on living his life pain free?  I honestly can't tell if you're being serious or just trying to get a laugh. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

Haven't read the whole thread, but Belichick has a great plan, makes so much sense the NFL will never do it.

Keep the challenges to 2-3, but allow anything to be challenged, when you're out, you're out. Simple and to the point.

I would make one modification to this. Give coaches 3 challenges two for plays and one for penalties. On penalty reviews the play in its entirety gets reviewed. So for example missed PI call, but there was also a missed holding call and the QB was about to get pummeled so play becomes offsetting penalties and replay the down. Would make coaches review only the most egregious of calls. 

 

[Moe.]

Right, but the replay booth can initiate challenges inside of 2 minutes.  

Honestly,  if they just put a referee in front of a TV and had him radioed in to all the other refs, they could make calls on the fly and not have to worry about replays at all.  One of the big concerns that's always brought up is that "they're taking it out of the refs hands or second guessing their calls."  But if you had 4 more refs, in refs uniforms and watching monitors, we could do away with replay and just have them make the calls we see on TV.

Of course, I've gotten off the original topic, but I feel like we have the technology to make calls better and more accurate (in a lot of sports) but people argue against it because... honestly, I couldn't think of a valid reason why people do.  But they do.  And then they label themselves "Purists", as if that means something.  

No no, we need a bunch of old guys in uncomfortable outfits running around the field and making calls on the fly, it's the only way. 

 

[Statorama]

Make it one challenge per season.  If you waste it in week 5 don’t come crying later when a playoff berth is on the line.  

 

[Statorama]

I think the NFL should be ref'ed from the booth unless you are ok with what happened with the Saints.  I think this is a tipping point one way or the other.

Bill Vinovich hasn’t even been reprimanded for that non-call, much less fired 

 

[Moe.]

If on-field referees are still a thing in 20 years I am going to be very disappointed

 

[TheIronSheik]

Robot refs.  I mean, it's freaking 2019.  Can we stop putting all of our greatest engineers on building the thinnest folding phone ever and maybe make some actual gosh darn robots?!?