Should rushing TDs be 7 points in PPR leagues? (1 Viewer)

[Marc Levin]

Ceo3west, I'm with you on the eliminating PPR, but since RBs and QBs are the more consistent yardage getters, PPR is an easy way to reward WRs.

I am exploring .5 PPR and that makes better sense than a straight 1 PPR. I will sell one or the other of my ideas and we will have a more equitable league.

 

[CalBear]

I have a great team - the current setup benefits me. But, I realize the inequity of PPR as to TDs. And I can't figure out why we allow the extra point on receiving TDs.This is purely a TD question - and would make alot of sense to everyone if we had some weird rules.Imagine a league that gives a 4 point bonus for going over 100 yards rushing and receiving combined - but does NOT give any yardage points besides that. To offset the number of RBs that score 100 combined, the league gives PPR.Now can folks see my problem with an extra point for every receiving TD?

Every play in fantasy football has a number of distinct, independent factors which are scored separately. If you score points for receptions, you get a point for every reception. If on that reception, you also gain yardage, you also get points for yardage. If while gaining yardage, you also get a TD, you also get points for the TD. All of those things are 100% logically consistent with the idea of PPR scoring; they are independent events which happened on the same play. The reason why you "can't figure out" why you allow "the extra point" on receiving TDs is that no one else views it as an "extra" point, and you're not listening to anyone else.

 

[ceo3west]

Ceo3west, I'm with you on the eliminating PPR, but since RBs and QBs are the more consistent yardage getters, PPR is an easy way to reward WRs.I am exploring .5 PPR and that makes better sense than a straight 1 PPR. I will sell one or the other of my ideas and we will have a more equitable league.

I hear you. Im actually in a league that gives .5/rec, won my game last night by 2 with Driver beleive it or not (5 receptions). In a non-ppr league I would have lost, but that doesnt make it right. In my eyes I should have lost. Will gladly take the win though

 

[Marc Levin]

I have a great team - the current setup benefits me. But, I realize the inequity of PPR as to TDs. And I can't figure out why we allow the extra point on receiving TDs.

This is purely a TD question - and would make alot of sense to everyone if we had some weird rules.

Imagine a league that gives a 4 point bonus for going over 100 yards rushing and receiving combined - but does NOT give any yardage points besides that. To offset the number of RBs that score 100 combined, the league gives PPR.

Now can folks see my problem with an extra point for every receiving TD?

Every play in fantasy football has a number of distinct, independent factors which are scored separately. If you score points for receptions, you get a point for every reception. If on that reception, you also gain yardage, you also get points for yardage. If while gaining yardage, you also get a TD, you also get points for the TD. All of those things are 100% logically consistent with the idea of PPR scoring; they are independent events which happened on the same play. The reason why you "can't figure out" why you allow "the extra point" on receiving TDs is that no one else views it as an "extra" point, and you're not listening to anyone else.

I'm listening to everyone - and once again, you have not given the rationale for why what ytou described is a good thing.NOR have you explained why:

If you score points for receptions, you get a point for every reception. If on that reception, you also gain yardage, you also get points for yardage. If while gaining yardage, you also get a TD, you also get 6 points for the TD.

If you score points for rushing yardage, you get a point for that yardage. If while gaining yardage, you also get a TD, you also get 7 points for the TD.

If you score points for passing yardage, you get a point for that yardage. If while gaining yardage, you also get a TD, you also get 7 points for the TD.

is a bad idea

 

[BassNBrew]

How's this for equitable scoring? Even a couple of kickers in the mix. I did pull out the defenses. This isn't normalized for byes so LT and LJ would be high up the ranking too.

McNabb, Donovan PHI QB 137.0 35.0 34.0 20.0 48.0 Huntersville SteelHeads 9 Grossman, Rex CHI QB 92.5 16.5 41.0 13.0 22.0 Damn Yankees 7 Manning, Peyton IND QB 88.0 12.0 39.0 20.0 17.0 Red Wings 6 Manning, Eli NYG QB 78.0 16.0 39.0 23.0 B Mazamaniac 4 Westbrook, Brian PHI RB 77.5 22.0 16.5 39.0   Shameless Hussies (Q) 9 Wilkins, Jeff STL PK 74.0 26.0 12.0 13.0 23.0 Behind the 8 Ball 7 Leftwich, Byron JAC QB 68.0 17.0 4.0 11.0 36.0 Damn Yankees 6 Pennington, Chad NYJ QB 67.0 21.0 32.0 6.0 8.0 Red Wings (P) 9 Gould, Robbie CHI PK 65.0 17.0 13.0 19.0 16.0 The Wakkos 7 Berrian, Bernard CHI WR 62.5 14.5 19.5 7.0 21.5 Yankeegrey 7 Moss, Santana WAS WR 62.5 7.5 6.0 7.0 42.0 Damn Yankees 8 Carr, David HOU QB 62.0 13.0 22.0 11.0 16.0 The Wakkos 5 Kitna, Jon DET QB 62.0 4.0 12.0 31.0 15.0 The Wakkos 8 Frye, Charlie CLE QB 61.0 12.0 8.0 27.0 14.0 Bass N' Brew 6 Favre, Brett GBP QB 60.0 -4.0 31.0 36.0 -3.0 Yankeegrey 6 Coles, Laveranues NYJ WR 59.0 16.0 23.0 11.0 9.0 Behind the 8 Ball (Q) 9 Colston, Marques NOS WR 59.0 10.0 15.0 9.5 24.5 Behind the 8 Ball 7 Johnson, Andre HOU WR 59.0 11.0 12.0 17.5 18.5 Damn Yankees 5 Brees, Drew NOS QB 58.0 4.0 28.0 0.0 26.0 The Wakkos 7 Kasay, John CAR PK 57.0 15.0 7.0 32.0 3.0 Silver Bullets 9 Gore, Frank SFO RB 55.0 26.0 19.0 6.0 4.0 Mazamaniac (P) 7 Holt, Torry STL WR 55.0 9.5 10.5 18.0 17.0 Huntersville SteelHeads 7 Jackson, Darrell SEA WR 55.0 4.5 24.5 19.5 6.5 Barking Kittens 5 Johnson, Rudi CIN RB 55.0 15.5 23.0 3.0 13.5 Huntersville SteelHeads 5 Bulger, Marc STL QB 54.0 2.0 5.0 15.0 32.0 Barking Kittens

 

[BassNBrew]

The answer to your question is real simple Marc but I'll break it down...

Crossing the white goal line = 6 points for all positions.

Catching the brown ball = 1 point for all positions.

A rushing TD shouldn't equal 7 points because the action of catching the brown ball wasn't part of the event. When a WR runs a reverse in they only get 6 points. The action of catching the brown ball is being rewarded.

You're proposing the following...

Catching the brown ball = 1 point for all positions.

Crossing the white goal line = 5 points for all positions most of the time except for the case when crossing the white line is 6 points for all positions.

 

[CalBear]

I'm listening to everyone - and once again, you have not given the rationale for why what ytou described is a good thing.

NOR have you explained why:

If you score points for receptions, you get a point for every reception. If on that reception, you also gain yardage, you also get points for yardage. If while gaining yardage, you also get a TD, you also get 6 points for the TD.

If you score points for rushing yardage, you get a point for that yardage. If while gaining yardage, you also get a TD, you also get 7 points for the TD.

If you score points for passing yardage, you get a point for that yardage. If while gaining yardage, you also get a TD, you also get 7 points for the TD.

is a bad idea

I think it's a good thing because in every other area of fantasy football, scoring events are independent. As I noted earlier, someone who sacks the QB, causes a fumble and recovers that fumble gets credit for all three actions independently. It is sensible, in leagues where receptions are themselves worth a point, to include that point independently in the scoring on every play, whether the play results in a TD or not. Awarding 7 points for running/passing TDs in such a league is a silly idea that is a weak attempt to solve an inexistent problem.If you want to debate the merits of awarding one point per reception, start a thread on that topic.

 

[Marc Levin]

If you want to debate the merits of awarding one point per reception, start a thread on that topic.

How about the merits of .5/rec.That is where I am heading right now to minimize the PPR inequity.Don't need a new topic - can do that here since that is where this has headed. Merits of .5 versus 1 PPR?On a similar note, how do folks like this preseason top-60? This is a 1/2/3 setup, with .5 PPR. but with one important modification (not TD scoring):1 Larry Johnson2 LaDainian Tomlinson3 Shaun Alexander4 Tiki Barber5 Peyton Manning6 Steven Jackson7 Torry Holt8 Steve Smith9 Chad Johnson10 Larry Fitzgerald11 Rudi Johnson12 Randy Moss13 Ronnie Brown14 Anquan Boldin15 LaMont Jordan16 Chris Chambers17 Reggie Wayne18 Marvin Harrison19 Donald Driver20 Antonio Gates21 Edgerrin James22 Brian Westbrook23 Reggie Bush24 Willie Parker25 Cadillac Williams26 Willis McGahee27 Kevin Jones28 Clinton Portis29 Tom Brady30 Roy Williams31 Donovan McNabb32 Terrell Owens33 Warrick Dunn34 Plaxico Burress35 DeShaun Foster36 Santana Moss37 Hines Ward38 Reuben Droughns39 Chester Taylor40 Darrell Jackson41 Derrick Mason42 Todd Heap43 Frank Gore44 Julius Jones45 Matt Hasselbeck46 T.J. Houshmandzadeh47 Joey Galloway48 Tony Gonzalez49 Rod Smith50 Jeremy Shockey51 Marc Bulger52 Terry Glenn53 Jake Delhomme54 Eli Manning55 Daunte Culpepper56 Jamal Lewis57 Eddie Kennison58 Lee Evans59 Andre Johnson60 Javon Walker

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

PPFDR is the only way to fly.

 

[Marc Levin]

PPFDR is the only way to fly.

It's just kinda hard to integrate that into most league management software.

 

[Marc Levin]

I'm also toying with a system that will compensate players every single time they touch the ball - will reward them every time they do something good, and will penalize them if they do something injurious.

It includes giving QBs .25 per completion, RBs .25 per attempt and WRs .25 per target. It then penalizes for negative yardage on rush attempts of less than 2 to go for 1st/TD, and it penalizes both QB and WR for getting a completion, but not making a first down on third down.

Still playing around with this idea, and I doubt I'll get many buyers for this type of league, but it is along the lines of Jeff's point system.

 

[BassNBrew]

The answer to your question is real simple Marc but I'll break it down...Crossing the white goal line = 6 points for all positions.Catching the brown ball = 1 point for all positions.A rushing TD shouldn't equal 7 points because the action of catching the brown ball wasn't part of the event. When a WR runs a reverse in they only get 6 points. The action of catching the brown ball is being rewarded.You're proposing the following...Catching the brown ball = 1 point for all positions.Crossing the white goal line = 5 points for all positions most of the time except for the case when crossing the white line is 6 points for all positions.

 

[BassNBrew]

The answer to your question is real simple Marc but I'll break it down...Crossing the white goal line = 6 points for all positions.Catching the brown ball = 1 point for all positions.A rushing TD shouldn't equal 7 points because the action of catching the brown ball wasn't part of the event. When a WR runs a reverse in they only get 6 points. The action of catching the brown ball is being rewarded.You're proposing the following...Catching the brown ball = 1 point for all positions.Crossing the white goal line = 5 points for all positions most of the time except for the case when crossing the white line is 6 points for all positions.

 

[CalBear]

If you want to debate the merits of awarding one point per reception, start a thread on that topic.

How about the merits of .5/rec.That is where I am heading right now to minimize the PPR inequity.

I don't really care that much whether receptions are awarded points. I do think, personally, that scoring systems which reduce the dominance of RBs make for more interesting fantasy football. The Anarchy league scoring system is interesting; 1 PPR for WRs, 2PPR for TEs, no PPR for RBs. It does a great job of smacking down RB value and giving people alternate strategies to try.My primary league is 0.5/rec, and I think it's fine. But I wouldn't object to either 0 PPR or 1 PPR; it just makes the league flavor a little different.

 

[DropKick]

I see them as separate concepts. All TDs (rush, receipt, return, etc) should be equal. The norm being 6 points. Same for yardage (ie. 1 yard = .1 points).

The last "contribution" is touches or involvement in the game plan. Some do not recognize this aspect of scoring and don't see the inherent value in something that doesn't result in yardage or points. However, there is NFL value in a back who can carry the ball 25-30 times; such as clock management and resting one's defense. I've used 1 point for receptions and .2 for rushes.

Since each team has the same starting roster requirements, I also don't see the need to equalize scoring across positions. I expect my TE to be outscored by WRs. I don't want kickers to score like QBs.

 

[a_f13nd]

Answering the question posed in the topic requires answering what the goal of PPR is exactly. If it's to allow bigtime WR to be more valuable than non-pass-catching RB who'd otherwise outscore them, that's one story.

If it's to more accurately approximate real football, then I think it falls short, since all systems are imperfect to some degree, and you really have to pick your poison.

Having RB being "ridiculously" overvalued is part of the problem of using raw statistics to define the game. The guys getting the most touches are going to have the biggest impact on the fantasy part of the game, even if they weren't able to do anything without having, for example, a 20-point lead due to defensive players or from receivers' scores.

Running the ball for a critical first down is typically not given the amount of points it's worth to the real game. Catching a 60 yard pass and getting knocked out and vultured on the 1-yard line... and having both equal 6 points is messed up. If you think about it, garbage time TDs that Favre, Eli and Alex Smith have put up being equal to game-winning drives orchestrated by Leftwich, for example, also creates a gap between reality and fantasy.

I know some people would enjoy the added work and energy that goes into predicting fractional points for completions and receptions and all that, or would let the fabulous DD program do it for them, but at the end of the day, it's all personal preference. I don't think you can go *wrong* per se to make touchdowns 7 points or 6 points or 1 million points. VBD will bear you out that no matter what you plug, if you are focusing on offensive production a few top guys are going to be doing most of it.

If you are infatuated with QB and are sick of RB getting so much credit, then find a system, which is probably quite complicated, that makes the top-10 guys QB. It might include bonuses for throwing game-winning TDs or passing for a first down. I don't know how you avoid giving points for garbage time, period... But it probably takes a lot of numbers crunching.

One of the best things about FF, to me, is that it can be as complex or as simple as you want. So, just go with your gut, and don't worry about being fair to players, to football, or to anything, unless you want to.

 

[Ahmad Rashad]

I think the idea of counting rushing TD's as 7 points in PPR leagues because receiving TD's get an extra reception point is the wrong approach. Instead of trying to address the extra reception point with an increased TD value, the more appropriate approach would be to give partial points for rushing attempts and passing completsions, as both of my main leagues do. Since both of these events count for 1/3 of a point, a TD is always worth at least 6.433 (at least 1/3 for carry, completion, or reception, plus at least 1/10 for the yardage). Receiving TD's are worth at least 7.1, but the difference between a reception and carry for the TD is 2/3 of a point, not a full point.

This approach of rewarding carries and completions as well as receptions evens out the TD event scoring somewhat but doesn't implement some random rule of rewarding 7 points for a rushing TD just to nullify the reception point on a TD.

The problem with this thread is instead of everyone else having to prove why rushing TD's shouldn't be 7 points in PPR leagues, anyone proposing this rule should try to prove why rushing TD's should be 7 points.

 

[corpcow]

If Rb's value come from their scarcity (not saying thats true or that its false) than theoretically by having a league starting 2 QB, 2 RB, 4 WR, and 2 TE would balance everything out. Do the numbers reflect that?

Not really - you want to decrease the demand on RBs, not increase demand on other positions. The top 24 QBs are generally "closer" than the top 24 RBs.

 

[corpcow]

I'm also toying with a system that will compensate players every single time they touch the ball - will reward them every time they do something good, and will penalize them if they do something injurious.It includes giving QBs .25 per completion, RBs .25 per attempt and WRs .25 per target. It then penalizes for negative yardage on rush attempts of less than 2 to go for 1st/TD, and it penalizes both QB and WR for getting a completion, but not making a first down on third down.Still playing around with this idea, and I doubt I'll get many buyers for this type of league, but it is along the lines of Jeff's point system.

One of my leagues cut down to 8 teams this year, so we tried something a little different to make it "harder".We now start 2QB, 3RB, 4WR, 2TE, 2K and 2 DEF.Completions are worth 0.2 pts, with incompletions worth -0.2. Sacks taken are negative points. Missed kicks under 40 yards are negative points. Return yards count at 1/2 the value of rushing/receiving.All in all, it's working out pretty well - it's maintained a very competitive league and kept it pretty deep, and we're still working in the 24 starting RBs range.

 

[BassNBrew]

The answer to your question is real simple Marc but I'll break it down...Crossing the white goal line = 6 points for all positions.Catching the brown ball = 1 point for all positions.A rushing TD shouldn't equal 7 points because the action of catching the brown ball wasn't part of the event. When a WR runs a reverse in they only get 6 points. The action of catching the brown ball is being rewarded.You're proposing the following...Catching the brown ball = 1 point for all positions.Crossing the white goal line = 5 points for all positions most of the time except for the case when crossing the white line is 6 points for all positions.

I'm guessing this was just a rhetorical question and that you didn't want the correct answer.Maybe I need to try this in your lingo...If the plane of the goal line the ball break, six points your fantasy player must make. If this feat was airborne, add a point and forget your scorn.

 

[TheLastDispatch]

If Rb's value come from their scarcity (not saying thats true or that its false) than theoretically by having a league starting 2 QB, 2 RB, 4 WR, and 2 TE would balance everything out. Do the numbers reflect that?

Not really - you want to decrease the demand on RBs, not increase demand on other positions. The top 24 QBs are generally "closer" than the top 24 RBs.

Good call. Forgot to take that into consideration.