Gopher State
Footballguy
Trump has hit it out of the ballpark when it comes to the economy. Lots of people vote with their pocketbooks.
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Shouldn’t we credit President Trump for a strong, booming economy? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
moleculo
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
You're missing the point here.
The point is that if you are inclined to measure presidents by the performance of the economy (which, again, I think is silly), you can look at different numbers to reach different conclusions. If you want to look at raw numbers, Trump is generally going to look better. If you want to look at improvement in those numbers, Obama is generally going to look better.
Each perspective, in isolation, paints an incomplete picture. Obama is obviously going to have the better improvement numbers because the numbers were terrible when he took office so he had lots of room to improve them that Trump didn't have. Trump is obviously going to have the better raw numbers for the same reason - he was handed an already healthy economy and has managed to keep it growing.
moleculo
Footballguy
imaginary, existing only in the minds of conservatives who can't seem to let go of their favorite boogeyman.
GoBirds
Footballguy
I needed this, almost fell off my chair. Obama was Dolphins Jimmy Johnson on his best day. Oh my.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Now I see your confusion. You didn't understand what I was saying. Apology accepted.
Hmm, after rapid-firing about 20 posts, Ack88 suddenly disappeared after telling me I couldn't name one area where Obama outperformed Trump. Suddenly not interested in the topic, I guess.I just gave you two facts. Obama shrunk unemployment from over 10% to under 5%. And Obama increased the stock market by 150%.
That's two humungous and very important economic indicators where Obama blows Trump out of the water. Of course, I'm sure you want to stick to GDP because that one favors Trump.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Hmm, after rapid-firing about 20 posts, Ack88 suddenly disappeared after telling me I couldn't name one area where Obama outperformed Trump. Suddenly not interested in the topic, I guess.
. What exactly did Obama do to help the stock market? Was it raising taxes with Obamacare?
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timschochet
Footballguy
Excellent and very thoughtful post.
Unfortunately a lot of the posts in this thread from Trump critics have consisted of either “Trump doesn’t deserve the credit, Obama does” or “things aren’t as good as they appear”. These aren’t winning arguments! And I believe that Trump DOES deserve credit, and I wanted to give it to him in this thread.
But Biden’s point, which is actually an echo of an argument Bernie has been making for well over a decade now, that the economic growth is not spreading to everyone, may be a winning argument for Democrats, especially since it was the exact same argument that Trump made in 2016! And in the OP I also listed the other concerns I had, which I think Democrats could use: tariffs. Harm to the environment. Reliance on old fuels like coal and oil. Ignoring the deficit. Etc etc. We’ll see if the Dems are smart enough to make some of these points.
timschochet
Footballguy
I would argue that TARP (which Obama had a lot of responsibility for despite not being elected yet), the stimulus package and the General Motors bailout all had a significant very positive impact on the stock market. Later on, Obama’s trade deals had more positive impact
Was it raising taxes with Obamacare?
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I appreciate the reminder of why I've always had you on ignore and everyone else should too. A man who is too arrogant to acknowledge that he confused growth rates with raw numbers isn't worth anyone's time, no matter how much false and misleading garbage he peddles.
Have a good weekend.
Right. And unemployment is under 4% under Trump and the stock market under Trump is higher than at any point than Obama.Hmm, after rapid-firing about 20 posts, Ack88 suddenly disappeared after telling me I couldn't name one area where Obama outperformed Trump. Suddenly not interested in the topic, I guess.
Ballgame, folks.
Nope.
False.
Nobody ever says "Let's look at regular season record to determine who the best coach of all time is."
People do say, when it comes to the economy- do I have a job? Are my taxes lower? In society at large, what do those metrics look like for most people? Unemployment lower under Trump. Economic Growth- stronger under Trump. Taxation rates- lower for most under Trump.
Simple questions- was unemployment under Obama EVER as low as it is under Trump?Hmm, after rapid-firing about 20 posts, Ack88 suddenly disappeared after telling me I couldn't name one area where Obama outperformed Trump. Suddenly not interested in the topic, I guess.
Is the stock market higher under Trump or Obama?
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Just one other thought here - Trump personally doesn’t enunciate what policies are effective. It’s impossible to assign any level of economic sophistication to a guy who just fecklessly nominated Stephen Moore and Herman Cain to the Fed. It’s an old story now but even good stuff for Trump falls apart when he opens his mouth to explain it.
Now can he wildly point at the stats? Yes, that’s a winning point.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Um you probably don't want to do that.....these guys are comparing Trump to Obama right now.
Booming economy and Federal deficit to rise to $900 billion for 2019, highest since 2012: CBO. Tax cuts still gonna be paid for by aging baby boomers and their children and grand children.
timschochet
Footballguy
Actually the fundamental question is even simpler: “is my situation better?”
And here I believe the Democrats have an argument to make that it really isn’t.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
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timschochet
Footballguy
Now the political question becomes: should the Democratic candidates talk about the economy, knowing that, even though they have a decent argument to make it’s a nuanced one, and that the truth is most voters are not great with nuance?
Or should they concentrate on healthcare? Or on Trump’s divisive rhetoric and actions? Forget about just and unjust, right and wrong: how best to win?
Or should they concentrate on healthcare? Or on Trump’s divisive rhetoric and actions? Forget about just and unjust, right and wrong: how best to win?
Good point. It is the proverbial am I better off now than I was four years ago?
IMO, I am better off and generally approve of Trump's economic policies. IMO, on the economy, while the Democrats could make that argument, I think Trump could make a stronger one. Of course, that is my personal opinion and I can't speak for everyone, but generally, I like GOP economic policies better.
A nearly 0% interest rate and quantitative easing were the only things that kept things alive during the Obama years.
Was it raising taxes with Obamacare?
It certainly wasn't the jobs creation.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
tsst
HellToupee
Footballguy
Unemployment at a 49 year low
Thanks Donald
Thanks Donald
timschochet
Footballguy
Right. And I disapprove for the reasons I stated in the OP. But unless you’re from Michigan, Wisconsin or Pennsylvania, it doesn’t matter what you or I think- those are the people who will be deciding whether or not Trump is to be re-elected.
Now in 2016 Trump made the argument to those people that the economy wasn’t good for them; even though the stock market was going up, they weren’t seeing manufacturing jobs. That is still the case. So for Trump to win this time around he either has to reverse his argument, or fool these people into thinking they’re better off when statistics show they are not.
HellToupee
Footballguy
Hispanic Unemployment Rate Sets New Record Low in April
https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/hispanic-unemployment-rate-sets-new-record-low-april
Thanks Donald
https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/hispanic-unemployment-rate-sets-new-record-low-april
Thanks Donald
HellToupee
Footballguy
Unemployment Rate for Women Falls to Lowest Since 1953
Thank you Mr President
Thank you Mr President
timschochet
Footballguy
Black unemployment, Hispanic unemployment- these are the strongest arguments that Trump can make against charges of bigotry. Absolutely true.Hispanic Unemployment Rate Sets New Record Low in April
https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/hispanic-unemployment-rate-sets-new-record-low-april
Thanks Donald
Wait, what? Obama takes unemployment from over 10% to under 5%, and in two and a half years, Trump gets it down another point and THAT'S the major accomplishment? Umm, wow. Just wow.
I asked you to name a metric where Obama outperformed Trump.
You said Obama brought unemployment to 5%.
I countered, as Trump's unemployment is under 4%.
How is an unemployment rate of 5% greater than that of an unemployment rate of 4%?
timschochet
Footballguy
At least Blutarksky had the guts to link the source for that one (Breitbart). Why were you afraid to do so?
John Blutarsky
Footballguy
Gr00vus
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Never run from a political issue.
Trump’s policies on debt, deficit, tariffs, regulation and social security are risky. Just say and talk intelligently about it.
However there have been some hokey plans floated - Yang’s dividend plan is one, I think I just saw some candidate (Warren?) proposed just giving out x hundred or thousand $$ to every citizen, etc. Don’t be gimmicky, act like you know how to run things.
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I cannot say that my wife and I are doing a whole lot better.
Of course we have more money to put into savings and stuff like that but that's probably because we have an "empty nest" and when the kids left...the income stayed here. But we aren't shopping for a yacht or anything like that.
I am thrilled to see how good my daughters are doing though.
They're making much more money than my wife & I did at their age.
They've already purchased homes.....I didn't buy my first home until I was 35.
Although I am on the back nine...I am very optimistic for my kids and their families..... (as long as someone doesn't get elected to screw it all up)
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They have. Make no mistake- Obama does deserve some credit for that.
The larger point, one that many in this thread are denying based on personal and political animus, is that Trump does, too.
HellToupee
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
And Dems should listen to some Trump voters (yes). The point has been made that Trump acts like he cares and is trying to do something to help the rust belt. Let’s avoid real policies for the moment, that is rhetoric that people appreciate.
The Commish
Footballguy
The only reason I posted the reminder was because he stated that in the tax thread, so I thought there was a chance that people hadn't seen his own words. He made that comment under very similar topic circumstances in that thread after revealing he's financial planner or investment counselor of some sort.
sho nuff
Footballguy
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Yup. Like I said, economy is built on a house of cards right now. Artificially boosted to make Trump look great in the moment.
https://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html
This is from February 2019:
https://www.npr.org/2019/02/13/694199256/u-s-national-debt-hits-22-trillion-a-new-record-thats-predicted-to-fall
The U.S. government's public debt is now more than $22 trillion — the highest it has ever been. The Treasury Department data comes as tax revenue has fallen and federal spending continues to rise. The new debt level reflects a rise of more than $2 trillion from the day President Trump took office in 2017.
Despite being in the second-longest economic expansion since the post–World War II boom, the U.S. is projected to rack up annual deficits and incur national debt at rates not seen since the 1940s, according to the Congressional Budget Office.
Over the next 10 years, annual federal deficits — when Congress spends more than it takes in through tax revenues — are expected to average $1.2 trillion, which would be 4.4 percent of gross domestic product. That's far higher than the 2.9 percent of GDP that has been the average for the past 50 years.
"Other than the period immediately after World War II, the only other time the average deficit has been so large over so many years was after the 2007–2009 recession," the CBO said last month.
Annual deficits and the national debt rose to new heights under the Obama administration, and the trend has continued under President Trump.
As a share of the U.S. economy, the national debt stood at 78 percent of GDP in 2018. But the CBO says it will rise to 93 percent by the end of 2029. Again, those numbers put the ratio at levels not seen since just after World War II.
"By 2029, debt is estimated to reach $28.7 trillion," the CBO said in January, referring to federal debt held by the public — a figure that doesn't include the billions of dollars that the government owes to itself. In recent years, those intragovernmental holdingshave hovered well above $5.5 trillion.
"This milestone is another sad reminder of the inexcusable tab our nation's leaders continue to run up and will leave for the next generation," reads a joint statement from former GOP Sen. Judd Gregg and former Democratic Gov. Ed Rendell, the co-chairmen of the nonpartisan group Campaign to Fix the Debt.
Calling on Congress to cut into the national debt, Gregg and Rendell said, "The fiscal recklessness over past years has been shocking, with few willing to step up with a real plan. We need responsible leadership to fix the debt, not a worsening of partisanship."
The U.S. hit the new height despite Trump's promises on the campaign trail that he would reduce America's debt load. Almost exactly four years ago, he said that if the national debt topped $21 trillion by the end of President Obama's term in office, "Obama will have effectively bankrupted our country."
The national debt nearly doubled under Obama: It was $10.6 trillion when he took office and was nearly $20 trillion when he left. The rise has been blamed on factors from the Great Recession to wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and rising costs of Social Security and Medicare. Many of those pressures still exist.
Trump has long said that he knows how to solve America's debt problem. As he said in 2015, "When you have $18-$19 trillion in debt, they need someone like me to straighten it out."
This is from February 2019:
https://www.npr.org/2019/02/13/694199256/u-s-national-debt-hits-22-trillion-a-new-record-thats-predicted-to-fall
The U.S. government's public debt is now more than $22 trillion — the highest it has ever been. The Treasury Department data comes as tax revenue has fallen and federal spending continues to rise. The new debt level reflects a rise of more than $2 trillion from the day President Trump took office in 2017.
Despite being in the second-longest economic expansion since the post–World War II boom, the U.S. is projected to rack up annual deficits and incur national debt at rates not seen since the 1940s, according to the Congressional Budget Office.
Over the next 10 years, annual federal deficits — when Congress spends more than it takes in through tax revenues — are expected to average $1.2 trillion, which would be 4.4 percent of gross domestic product. That's far higher than the 2.9 percent of GDP that has been the average for the past 50 years.
"Other than the period immediately after World War II, the only other time the average deficit has been so large over so many years was after the 2007–2009 recession," the CBO said last month.
Annual deficits and the national debt rose to new heights under the Obama administration, and the trend has continued under President Trump.
As a share of the U.S. economy, the national debt stood at 78 percent of GDP in 2018. But the CBO says it will rise to 93 percent by the end of 2029. Again, those numbers put the ratio at levels not seen since just after World War II.
"By 2029, debt is estimated to reach $28.7 trillion," the CBO said in January, referring to federal debt held by the public — a figure that doesn't include the billions of dollars that the government owes to itself. In recent years, those intragovernmental holdingshave hovered well above $5.5 trillion.
"This milestone is another sad reminder of the inexcusable tab our nation's leaders continue to run up and will leave for the next generation," reads a joint statement from former GOP Sen. Judd Gregg and former Democratic Gov. Ed Rendell, the co-chairmen of the nonpartisan group Campaign to Fix the Debt.
Calling on Congress to cut into the national debt, Gregg and Rendell said, "The fiscal recklessness over past years has been shocking, with few willing to step up with a real plan. We need responsible leadership to fix the debt, not a worsening of partisanship."
The U.S. hit the new height despite Trump's promises on the campaign trail that he would reduce America's debt load. Almost exactly four years ago, he said that if the national debt topped $21 trillion by the end of President Obama's term in office, "Obama will have effectively bankrupted our country."
The national debt nearly doubled under Obama: It was $10.6 trillion when he took office and was nearly $20 trillion when he left. The rise has been blamed on factors from the Great Recession to wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and rising costs of Social Security and Medicare. Many of those pressures still exist.
Trump has long said that he knows how to solve America's debt problem. As he said in 2015, "When you have $18-$19 trillion in debt, they need someone like me to straighten it out."
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
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