SI.com article on the replacement referees (1 Viewer)

[renesauz]

PFT:

But an attempt at the conclusion of the release to characterize the financial portion of the dispute as trivial could backfire. The NFLRA says that the compensation increase its members seek along with the continuation of the defined benefit pension plan (i.e., the employer invests the money and the employees always get the same amount even if the market goes to hell in a handbag) would cost “about 1/3 of 1% of its $9 billion in revenues.”

Seems small, right? But that translates to $30 million. And the NFLRA doesn’t explain whether that’s over the course of a year or over the length of the deal.

It’s a clumsy effort, in our view, to make the league look greedy. Especially since a fairly limited exercise in number crunching reveals that the stuff the NFLRA wants over and above that which the NFL has offered results in a gap of $252,100 per official.

The release from the NFLRA also makes no mention of the non-economic portion of the dispute. One source with knowledge of the situation claims that the union is resisting aggressively the effort to create a bench of backups who would replace during the season any officials who are underperforming.

Screw 'em. They were already overpaid. It might be a painful season, but it will be better next year.

 

[James Daulton]

According to Albert Breer, the sticking point is the pension plan. The union wants all current refs grandfathered in and the NFL to continue the DB plan for them. New refs would go into a 401(k) plan. The NFL wants to freeze the DB plan for everyone and move everyone to a 401(k). Neither side is budging on that issue.

Anyone know what the DB plan is as it stands?

DB stands for defined benefit plan. Basically, an old-fashioned pension plan. You're guaranteed X dollars for X number of years worked. In a DC (defined contribution) plan, the league will fund a 401k plan, after that, their obligation is over. That's what makes these DC plans so popular these days.

 

[Raider Nation]

(AP) -- The NFL referees union says the league is "engaged in a misinformation campaign" following unsuccessful negotiations earlier in the weekend.

The two sides failed to reach an agreement Saturday when they met for the third day in a row, and the league said it's proceeding with replacement officials.

The NFL locked out the referees in early June, and hired replacements, whose work in exhibition games has been heavily criticized.

On Sunday, it sent teams a memo saying it upped its offer to the union and thought it was close to a deal, but the union says "there was no agreement ... to do anything other than to meet on Saturday. Any claim that numbers were agreed to before Saturday is absolutely false."

The NFL's memo says it offered more money in order to reach a deal before the regular season started, and thought the union was planning to reach one on Saturday.

In a memo obtained by The Associated Press, the NFL said that on Saturday "the officials immediately did an about-face and made clear that they had no intention of settling within the agreed-upon parameters."

The union says that "after locking out the NFL Officials on June 3 and refusing to negotiate with the NFLRA, the NFL is now engaged in a misinformation campaign."

The statement goes on to say "there was no agreement on Thursday or Friday to do anything other than to meet on Saturday. Any claim that any numbers were agreed to before Saturday is absolutely false."

The NFL has seen and heard the problems the replacements have had this summer, something that tests the integrity of the sport. The speed of the game and the amount of time starters are on the field increase exponentially for real games, making the replacements' task more challenging.

In 2001, the NFL used replacements for the first week of the regular season before a contract was finalized.

Here is my humble prediction: the league caves and gives the officials whatever they want on Tuesday (a week from tomorrow), following a disastrous, comical, embarrassing effort by the replacements in week 1. The average fan has no idea how incompetent these guys are because they barely pay attention to preseason games. When the outcry is on every talk show and the front page of every sports section, the league will have its hand forced.

 

[Raider Nation]

Posted by Mike Florio on September 3, 2012

It’s become increasingly clear in recent weeks that the replacement officials aren’t ready for the biggest stage in the sport they’ve chosen.

The problem seems to be that the junior junior varsity can’t adjust to the pressure of making (or not making) calls at the NFL level. From the size and speed of the players to the voices of the coaches to the taunts of the fans in attendance to the blanket of TV cameras, there’s a sense of paralysis that routinely keeps the replacements from making quick, efficient, and confident decisions.

They want to get it right, but they can’t get it right quickly. And that’s not something one four-game preseason on the job will fix, at least not for the full complement of replacements.

Peter King shares in MMQB an anecdote from one of the final preseason games that the league should find troubling, to say the least: “Official calls defensive pass-interference in front of the penalized team’s bench. Head coach lambastes the official. Official picks up the flag, tells the coach he’s not going to make the call. Coach is stunned. Imagine what will happen when something’s actually at stake.”

And so, with the games that count only two days away, the league needs to find a way to thicken the skin of the replacements, getting them to tune out the coaches and the players and the crowd and the millions of eyes crawling on their skin and treat the game like it’s a game at the level to which they’re more accustomed.

It would be far easier, relatively speaking, to find a way to get the real officials back on the job. Here’s hoping that happens.

 

[GroveDiesel]

I've seen plenty of refs pick up a flag while being screamed at. Has nobody else heard them announce "there was no flag on the play"?

From Peter King's article, the big issue is the retirement plan. The NFL says they can't justify a DB plan for part time employees when full time NFL employees all get a 401(k).

Sounds like the difference between what the NFL wants and what the refs want comes out to about $275k per official. That's a lot of money and I can see why the NFL would be wanting what they want.

FWIW, King's article also said that the the gap seemed to be about $4M per year. The NFL offered to increase their offer by $1M a year in some combination of either salary or 401(k) contributions. The catch was that it was a last and final offer and if the refs were on board, then they'd get together this past weekend and get it done. If the refs weren't on board, then the NFL didn't want to meet. So the refs show up, the NFL thinks there's a deal and the refs refuse the deal and want to negotiate. Lame.

 

[Raider Nation]

FWIW, King's article also said that the the gap seemed to be about $4M per year. The NFL offered to increase their offer by $1M a year in some combination of either salary or 401(k) contributions. The catch was that it was a last and final offer and if the refs were on board, then they'd get together this past weekend and get it done. If the refs weren't on board, then the NFL didn't want to meet. So the refs show up, the NFL thinks there's a deal and the refs refuse the deal and want to negotiate. Lame.

Did you read what I posted a few minutes ago? The refs deny that any numbers were agreed upon.

 

[GroveDiesel]

FWIW, King's article also said that the the gap seemed to be about $4M per year. The NFL offered to increase their offer by $1M a year in some combination of either salary or 401(k) contributions. The catch was that it was a last and final offer and if the refs were on board, then they'd get together this past weekend and get it done. If the refs weren't on board, then the NFL didn't want to meet. So the refs show up, the NFL thinks there's a deal and the refs refuse the deal and want to negotiate. Lame.

Did you read what I posted a few minutes ago? The refs deny that any numbers were agreed upon.

I read it. The statement from the refs is plainly couched in legalese. Of course there was no agreement because they didn't agree. That's not what the NFL said. They said that they only wanted to meet if the refs agreed with their offer. The refs agreed to meet but then refused the offer. Pretty low by them.That'd be like emailing back and forth with someone on Craigslist and saying, "hey, if you're willing to sell this for $50, let's meet at Burger King and we'll do it. Otherwise I don't want to waste my time." The other guy says "yeah, let's meet."You show up and suddenly the guy want $70.You're going to be mad because you told the guy you didn't want to waste your time if he wasn't willing to take $50. You say by agreeing to show up that he agreed to the $50. He says that he only agreed to show up, not the $50. Technically he could be right, but he's still in the wrong from an ethical standpoint.

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

According to Albert Breer, the sticking point is the pension plan. The union wants all current refs grandfathered in and the NFL to continue the DB plan for them. New refs would go into a 401(k) plan. The NFL wants to freeze the DB plan for everyone and move everyone to a 401(k). Neither side is budging on that issue.

Anyone know what the DB plan is as it stands?

DB stands for defined benefit plan. Basically, an old-fashioned pension plan. You're guaranteed X dollars for X number of years worked. In a DC (defined contribution) plan, the league will fund a 401k plan, after that, their obligation is over. That's what makes these DC plans so popular these days.

I understand that.I want to know the specifics of the plan. How many years, what percentage of salary, etc. Is it 30 years of service, 90% pay of highest three year? What is it?

 

[Ksquared]

I think the key in all of this is - no one, that's right, no one in the NFL (players, coaches, admin, Goodell, etc) are getting a DB anymore. Just like most of the private sector. But the officials feel they should be a special case I guess. The NFL is not doing anything different than every private sector in the economy. Basically the unfunded mandate in these plans can have astronomical costs in the future if the invested $$ do not have a traditional positive return (which is what has happened the last few years in the economy.

Two of the more high profile failures of a DB plan that I know of: 1) are the $400 million Obama's stimulus package paid to the United Autoworkers, and

2) the State of California public workers pension (both teachers - the largest - and government workers). Two years ago over $80 billion had to be taken straight from the state general fund before any other expenses - and is untouchable for cuts. A similar amount has been required the last 2 years to keep the DB fund solvent since the ROR did not keep up with the legal requirements.

And I know there are many other examples that all of you can think of.

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

I think the key in all of this is - no one, that's right, no one in the NFL (players, coaches, admin, Goodell, etc) are getting a DB anymore. Just like most of the private sector. But the officials feel they should be a special case I guess. The NFL is not doing anything different than every private sector in the economy. Basically the unfunded mandate in these plans can have astronomical costs in the future if the invested $$ do not have a traditional positive return (which is what has happened the last few years in the economy. Two of the more high profile failures of a DB plan that I know of: 1) are the $400 million Obama's stimulus package paid to the United Autoworkers, and 2) the State of California public workers pension (both teachers - the largest - and government workers). Two years ago over $80 billion had to be taken straight from the state general fund before any other expenses - and is untouchable for cuts. A similar amount has been required the last 2 years to keep the DB fund solvent since the ROR did not keep up with the legal requirements. And I know there are many other examples that all of you can think of.

Bingo.The DB plan is becoming a thing of the past. Absolutely no reason referees should be an exception. Absolutely not one single reason.

 

[Hoss Style]

FWIW, King's article also said that the the gap seemed to be about $4M per year. The NFL offered to increase their offer by $1M a year in some combination of either salary or 401(k) contributions. The catch was that it was a last and final offer and if the refs were on board, then they'd get together this past weekend and get it done. If the refs weren't on board, then the NFL didn't want to meet. So the refs show up, the NFL thinks there's a deal and the refs refuse the deal and want to negotiate. Lame.

Did you read what I posted a few minutes ago? The refs deny that any numbers were agreed upon.

I read it. The statement from the refs is plainly couched in legalese. Of course there was no agreement because they didn't agree. That's not what the NFL said. They said that they only wanted to meet if the refs agreed with their offer. The refs agreed to meet but then refused the offer. Pretty low by them.

Not taking sides here - but did you read what Raider posted? You say you did, but then you say the refs are "pretty low" based on what the NFL said. And you believe the NFL's statement over the Ref's statement because... I'm just sayin... it sounds a lot like each side is twisting words here. It could have easily been a "let's meet and see if we can agree" (which favors the ref's statement) or it could be what the NFL said in "let's only meet if you're ready to agree". Either way - I'm not ready to call either side "low" based on their weak statements which are obviously biased and, in some instances, probably flat out lies. In just this statement here - one side is obviously lying.

 

[Raider Nation]

I wonder if they can get REAL referees to the stadium in time for the 2nd half kickoff.

 

[Eviloutsider]

I still don't think that these guys are much/any worse.

 

[Raider Nation]

I still don't think that these guys are much/any worse.

Much, MUCH worse. People notice the bad calls, but they don't notice the subtle things. Half the time, these clowns won't even identify the offending party by number. And on the horse-collar penalty... "half the distance." Half the distance to WHAT? Someone who isn't a big football fan would have no clue what he's talking about. Just sloppy.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I still don't think that these guys are much/any worse.

Much, MUCH worse. People notice the bad calls, but they don't notice the subtle things. Half the time, these clowns won't even identify the offending party by number. And on the horse-collar penalty... "half the distance." Half the distance to WHAT? Someone who isn't a big football fan would have no clue what he's talking about. Just sloppy.

These guys have yet to make a brutally terrible call that turned the game upside down, so they're already doing better than last year's crew.Seriously, there's no instance I can think of on this board where anyone has ever been grasping at straws so hard that they're trying to call someone out for saying "half the distance" instead of "half the distance to the goal".

 

[Raider Nation]

I still don't think that these guys are much/any worse.

Much, MUCH worse. People notice the bad calls, but they don't notice the subtle things. Half the time, these clowns won't even identify the offending party by number. And on the horse-collar penalty... "half the distance." Half the distance to WHAT? Someone who isn't a big football fan would have no clue what he's talking about. Just sloppy.

These guys have yet to make a brutally terrible call that turned the game upside down, so they're already doing better than last year's crew.

Seriously, there's no instance I can think of on this board where anyone has ever been grasping at straws so hard that they're trying to call someone out for saying "half the distance" instead of "half the distance to the goal".

Roll your eyes at me all you want. Being a professional at anything is all in the details.

 

[pollardsvision]

I still don't think that these guys are much/any worse.

Much, MUCH worse. People notice the bad calls, but they don't notice the subtle things. Half the time, these clowns won't even identify the offending party by number. And on the horse-collar penalty... "half the distance." Half the distance to WHAT? Someone who isn't a big football fan would have no clue what he's talking about. Just sloppy.

That stuff doesn't bother me.Curious.....how long will this disaster have to go on before you or anyone you know will stop watching the NFL?

 

[Raider Nation]

I still don't think that these guys are much/any worse.

Much, MUCH worse. People notice the bad calls, but they don't notice the subtle things. Half the time, these clowns won't even identify the offending party by number. And on the horse-collar penalty... "half the distance." Half the distance to WHAT? Someone who isn't a big football fan would have no clue what he's talking about. Just sloppy.

That stuff doesn't bother me.Curious.....how long will this disaster have to go on before you or anyone you know will stop watching the NFL?

Really?

 

[renesauz]

No matter how bad these refs are, I'd still have their back. The refs union is nuts in their demands and I don't blame the NFL one bit.

The officiating will be back to normal when the refs give in, or next year when the NFL can recruit new refs from DI instead of the winter leagues.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Roll your eyes at me all you want. Being a professional at anything is all in the details.

You're being ridiculous. The original refs say no numbers or the wrong number all the time. They shorten explanations all the time. They say offsides when they mean encroachment (or vice versa) all the time. They say the call was confirmed when they mean the call stands (and vice versa) all the time.In your crazy warped world the original refs make every call correctly and explain everything perfectly. In reality they blow calls all the time and explain things pretty much exactly the same as these guys are. I'm really beginning to believe that you have family or friends that are a referee because that's the only reason I can come up with as to why you're so passionately arguing over such ridiculous points that you have a completely warped memory of.

 

[Raider Nation]

Roll your eyes at me all you want. Being a professional at anything is all in the details.

You're being ridiculous. The original refs say no numbers or the wrong number all the time. They shorten explanations all the time. They say offsides when they mean encroachment (or vice versa) all the time. They say the call was confirmed when they mean the call stands (and vice versa) all the time.In your crazy warped world the original refs make every call correctly and explain everything perfectly. In reality they blow calls all the time and explain things pretty much exactly the same as these guys are. I'm really beginning to believe that you have family or friends that are a referee because that's the only reason I can come up with as to why you're so passionately arguing over such ridiculous points that you have a completely warped memory of.

I guess we disagree.

 

[Raider Nation]

Referee gives laughable 'delay of game' signal.

The proper method is displayed here: http://www.4nflpicks.com/images/officials.signals.jpg

This referee made an X with his arms... palms flat on his collarbone. Embarrassing.

Happened with 12:14 left in the 4th if you'd care to look for yourself.

 

[Sinn Fein]

I thought the refs were fine. Who gives a #### what the signal was?

 

[wilked]

Right, if that is the most we can complain about... it is a non issue

 

[Raider Nation]

We need to calm down for a minute. This was THE BEST replacement referee crew they have. They were more than adequate.

They only have 15 more games to go this weekend. Let's talk again after that.

 

[Novice2]

Yes America someone outta HS can do your job!

 

[Raider Nation]

Right, if that is the most we can complain about... it is a non issue

He gave the college signal for a substitution infraction instead of the NFL signal for delay of game.That can't happen. But other than that and the missed holding call on Cruz, they did a decent job.

 

[BassNBrew]

Right, if that is the most we can complain about... it is a non issue

He gave the college signal for a substitution infraction instead of the NFL signal for delay of game.That can't happen. But other than that and the missed holding call on Cruz, they did a decent job.

So basically they had a better perfromance in making the correct calls than the regular refs would have (outside of using pharses or hand signals RN likes).As a sidenote, I thought they made the calls much quicker than the regular refs. On the false start penalties they signaled the infraction and number to the ref at a distance rather than trotting over. Maybe it's always been this way, but it seemed faster to me.

 

[DiStefano]

Right, if that is the most we can complain about... it is a non issue

He gave the college signal for a substitution infraction instead of the NFL signal for delay of game.That can't happen. But other than that and the missed holding call on Cruz, they did a decent job.

But it won't be good enough for you to stop whining.

 

[BassNBrew]

Loved the "clipping" call, that was kind of old school.

 

[BassNBrew]

I think the NFL should come out with a statemnt tomorrow that any new settlement must include jobs for all the refs that worked tonite at the expense of the lowest rated official in the union. Each week this drags on, one of the old crews will be permanently replaced by a replacement crew.

 

[Raider Nation]

Loved the "clipping" call, that was kind of old school.

So you love incorrect calls?

 

[BassNBrew]

Loved the "clipping" call, that was kind of old school.

So you love incorrect calls?

I don't care if they call it a pig or a hog or dinner as long as it's cooked.

 

[Raider Nation]

Loved the "clipping" call, that was kind of old school.

So you love incorrect calls?

I don't care if they call it a pig or a hog or dinner as long as it's cooked.

So on that illegal block in the back on a punt return, a "roughing the passer" call would have been fine with you just as long as they called SOMETHING?

 

[BassNBrew]

Loved the "clipping" call, that was kind of old school.

So you love incorrect calls?

I don't care if they call it a pig or a hog or dinner as long as it's cooked.

So on that illegal block in the back on a punt return, a "roughing the passer" call would have been fine with you just as long as they called SOMETHING?

That used to be called clipping back in the day. After predicting the world would end earlier in the thread, you are really reaching here.Please be sure to bump on Sunday when they call an unnecessary roughness penalty a clothes line foul as it will obviously have ruined the game.

 

[Raider Nation]

Loved the "clipping" call, that was kind of old school.

So you love incorrect calls?

I don't care if they call it a pig or a hog or dinner as long as it's cooked.

So on that illegal block in the back on a punt return, a "roughing the passer" call would have been fine with you just as long as they called SOMETHING?

That used to be called clipping back in the day.

No it didn't. Clipping and an illegal block in the back are two completely different fouls.Go look it up. I'll wait.

 

[Raider Nation]

GAME 1 REFEREE RECAP:

[*]Missed defensive holding call against Victor Cruz. Would have changed the complexion of the game.

[*]Head referee gives college signal for substitution infraction instead of NFL signal for delay of game.

[*]Linesman spots the ball for a first down. Referee signals 3rd down. The action is delayed.

[*][From NBC] A blown whistle to flag Dallas for 12 men on the field. But the Giants didn’t snap the ball, and the only time that flag is thrown without a snap is when 12 men are in the offensive huddle.

Overall grade: B-

On to the weekend with the CRAPPIEST of the crappy refs!

 

[BassNBrew]

Loved the "clipping" call, that was kind of old school.

So you love incorrect calls?

I don't care if they call it a pig or a hog or dinner as long as it's cooked.

So on that illegal block in the back on a punt return, a "roughing the passer" call would have been fine with you just as long as they called SOMETHING?

That used to be called clipping back in the day.

No it didn't. Clipping and an illegal block in the back are two completely different fouls.Go look it up. I'll wait.

Don't have the time or care enough to take the time to look it up any more than I care who's officaiting the game.There used to be 2-3 clipping calls a game a couple of decades ago, now you never hear that call. I think there was a change at some point that narrowing the defination of clipping or broke it into two separate fouls.

 

[Raider Nation]

Loved the "clipping" call, that was kind of old school.

So you love incorrect calls?

I don't care if they call it a pig or a hog or dinner as long as it's cooked.

So on that illegal block in the back on a punt return, a "roughing the passer" call would have been fine with you just as long as they called SOMETHING?

That used to be called clipping back in the day.

No it didn't. Clipping and an illegal block in the back are two completely different fouls.Go look it up. I'll wait.

Don't have the time or care enough to take the time to look it up any more than I care who's officaiting the game.There used to be 2-3 clipping calls a game a couple of decades ago, now you never hear that call. I think there was a change at some point that narrowing the defination of clipping or broke it into two separate fouls.

You are simply incapable of typing "You were right" to someone else.

 

[GregR]

[*][From NBC] A blown whistle to flag Dallas for 12 men on the field. But the Giants didn’t snap the ball, and the only time that flag is thrown without a snap is when 12 men are in the offensive huddle.

Haven't seen the 2012 rule book, but I'm 99% sure the above is incorrect. If there 12 defensive players on the field, then the whistle is supposed to be blown whenever the snap is imminent. 12 men on the field is a dead ball foul.

 

[Raider Nation]

[*][From NBC] A blown whistle to flag Dallas for 12 men on the field. But the Giants didn’t snap the ball, and the only time that flag is thrown without a snap is when 12 men are in the offensive huddle.

Haven't seen the 2012 rule book, but I'm 99% sure the above is incorrect. If there 12 defensive players on the field, then the whistle is supposed to be blown whenever the snap is imminent. 12 men on the field is a dead ball foul.

Glad I quoted the source on that one. Didn't MT post a current rule book?

 

[GregR]

As far as the refs, if it wasn't for being told these are replacement refs, I bet most fans would have had no clue they weren't a normal crew.

They didn't seem to miss more than you see in any game the normal refs call. Most of the mistakes they made, like using a wrong hand signal, were minor and had no real impact on the game. You see the normal refs each game miss any number of calls like the holding near the end zone.

Any given week of 16 games officiated by the normal refs, you probably see at least 6 games that were not only worse officiated than this one, but far worse.

 

[GregR]

[*][From NBC] A blown whistle to flag Dallas for 12 men on the field. But the Giants didn’t snap the ball, and the only time that flag is thrown without a snap is when 12 men are in the offensive huddle.

Haven't seen the 2012 rule book, but I'm 99% sure the above is incorrect. If there 12 defensive players on the field, then the whistle is supposed to be blown whenever the snap is imminent. 12 men on the field is a dead ball foul.

Glad I quoted the source on that one. Didn't MT post a current rule book?

I don't know, where'd he post it? NFL.com still has the 2011 PDF up.

 

[Raider Nation]

As far as the refs, if it wasn't for being told these are replacement refs, I bet most fans would have had no clue they weren't a normal crew. They didn't seem to miss more than you see in any game the normal refs call. Most of the mistakes they made, like using a wrong hand signal, were minor and had no real impact on the game. You see the normal refs each game miss any number of calls like the holding near the end zone.Any given week of 16 games officiated by the normal refs, you probably see at least 6 games that were not only worse officiated than this one, but far worse.

I don't disagree with any of that. But again, this was Goodell's hand-picked, cream-of-the-crop "referee crew which will embarrass us the least." If we get through this weekend with limited controversy, I will begin to accept the idea that the regular refs are replaceable. But we are FAR from that point.

 

[Raider Nation]

[*][From NBC] A blown whistle to flag Dallas for 12 men on the field. But the Giants didn’t snap the ball, and the only time that flag is thrown without a snap is when 12 men are in the offensive huddle.

Haven't seen the 2012 rule book, but I'm 99% sure the above is incorrect. If there 12 defensive players on the field, then the whistle is supposed to be blown whenever the snap is imminent. 12 men on the field is a dead ball foul.

Glad I quoted the source on that one. Didn't MT post a current rule book?

I don't know, where'd he post it? NFL.com still has the 2011 PDF up.

On this forum, but I can't find it. Still looking.

 

[Raider Nation]

Yeah, never mind. It's still the 2011 book.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=489275&st=0&p=10817608&hl=rulebook&fromsearch=1entry10817608

Thought he posted the new one for some reason.

 

[GregR]

Yeah, never mind. It's still the 2011 book.http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=489275&st=0&p=10817608&hl=rulebook&fromsearch=1entry10817608Thought he posted the new one for some reason.

Yeah, I don't think they've put the new one out yet.But in any event, the 12 men on the field rule was changed after the Super Bowl, when the Giants had 12 men on the field late in the game. And everyone after realized it might be worth giving up 5 yards and down over to have an extra defender back there if time is really short.So in the offseason they made 12 men on the field a dead ball foul. I just haven't seen the literal wording, but the articles on it mentioned the whistle would blow when the snap was imminent.

 

[BassNBrew]

Loved the "clipping" call, that was kind of old school.

So you love incorrect calls?

I don't care if they call it a pig or a hog or dinner as long as it's cooked.

So on that illegal block in the back on a punt return, a "roughing the passer" call would have been fine with you just as long as they called SOMETHING?

That used to be called clipping back in the day.

No it didn't. Clipping and an illegal block in the back are two completely different fouls.Go look it up. I'll wait.

Don't have the time or care enough to take the time to look it up any more than I care who's officaiting the game.There used to be 2-3 clipping calls a game a couple of decades ago, now you never hear that call. I think there was a change at some point that narrowing the defination of clipping or broke it into two separate fouls.

You are simply incapable of typing "You were right" to someone else.

I did look it up and wasn't surprised to find out that you were wrong again. Clipping used to be defined as any block from behind as I stated earlier.

 

[BassNBrew]

Yeah, never mind. It's still the 2011 book.http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=489275&st=0&p=10817608&hl=rulebook&fromsearch=1entry10817608Thought he posted the new one for some reason.

Yeah, I don't think they've put the new one out yet.But in any event, the 12 men on the field rule was changed after the Super Bowl, when the Giants had 12 men on the field late in the game. And everyone after realized it might be worth giving up 5 yards and down over to have an extra defender back there if time is really short.So in the offseason they made 12 men on the field a dead ball foul. I just haven't seen the literal wording, but the articles on it mentioned the whistle would blow when the snap was imminent.

So basically RN was wrong again???

 

[Raider Nation]

Yeah, never mind. It's still the 2011 book.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=489275&st=0&p=10817608&hl=rulebook&fromsearch=1entry10817608

Thought he posted the new one for some reason.

Yeah, I don't think they've put the new one out yet.But in any event, the 12 men on the field rule was changed after the Super Bowl, when the Giants had 12 men on the field late in the game. And everyone after realized it might be worth giving up 5 yards and down over to have an extra defender back there if time is really short.

So in the offseason they made 12 men on the field a dead ball foul. I just haven't seen the literal wording, but the articles on it mentioned the whistle would blow when the snap was imminent.

Was this the one where one of the Giants was busting his ### to get off the field, and then Belichick challenged it? Sounds familiar... do I have that right? So now there is no sprinting to get off the field? 12 in the huddle on D and you're getting flagged?