So Cal Fires (2 Viewers)

[the moops]

I'm not saying that both don't deserve federal assistance, but I think there are many more things you can do about fire prevention than you can do to stop a tornado or hurricane.

exactly

it's not an apples to apples comparison.

there is no prevention for Hurricanes

Sometimes there is no prevention of fires either. Also there are preventions for hurricane related damages that are not adhered to. From how houses and bridges and other structures are constructed, to boarding up windows and having hurricane rated glass and such.

**** happens. Be it from fires, or tornados, or earthquakes, or whatever. We should obviously look to mitigate damage but this need to point fingers and find blame is disgusting when there are 10's if not 100's of thousands of people in a horrible situation.

 

[HomerSimpson]

I'm not saying that both don't deserve federal assistance, but I think there are many more things you can do about fire prevention than you can do to stop a tornado or hurricane.

exactly

it's not an apples to apples comparison.

there is no prevention for Hurricanes

There is no prevention for Hurricanes but at least you get a week-ish heads up that it's on the way. Wild Fires and Earthquakes just hit out of nowhere.

 

[TripItUp]

but this need to point fingers and find blame is disgusting when there are 10,s if not 100's of thousands of people in a horrible situation.

I don't think people in here are as interested in pointing fingers...I think people are concerned that not everything is being done to prevent future loss of human life and property.

 

[TripItUp]

Sometimes there is no prevention of fires either.

I disagree with this based on the facts of these particular fires.

 

[Max Power]

There's no prevention for 100 mph winds after a fire breaks out either

Does California have a policy to shut off powerlines during high risk weather conditions? I didn't even know that was a thing until I started reading about the Maui fires.

 

[the moops]

Sometimes there is no prevention of fires either.

I disagree with this based on the facts of these particular fires.

We do not have near enough facts to know for certain either way here. I urge everyone to let this play out and see where the facts take us before we try and solve a problem for shich we do not know the question

 

[TripItUp]

Does California have a policy to shut off powerlines during high risk weather conditions? I didn't even know that was a thing until I started reading about the Maui fires.

I think all of these types of measures will be reconsidered....and appropriately so.

 

[RCon]

I don't think people in here are as interested in pointing fingers...I think people are concerned that not everything is being done to prevent future loss of human life and property.

Again, I'd ask why is the concern only around this event, and not on what we could have done / can do to mitigate damage from hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, etc.? No, a hurricane can't be prevented (well, if we as a society had taken certain warnings seriously decades ago, but I digress), but the damage can absolutely be mitigated. Why no concern there?

 

[the moops]

Does California have a policy to shut off powerlines during high risk weather conditions? I didn't even know that was a thing until I started reading about the Maui fires.

I think all of these types of measures will be reconsidered....and appropriately so.

It hasn't rained in forever and there a high risk weather conditions regularly. I am unsure if shutting off power lines is an appropriate solution considering how often it would have to happen

 

[the moops]

I don't think people in here are as interested in pointing fingers

You are naive if you think this is true
Also - you have posted several articles that seem to want to point the finger at the state/county/city government

 

[fatness]

Every state is good at telling other states how to do things.

When/if other states have to foot the bill for potential mismanagement, seems like it would be okay for those states to have an opinion...especially since their taxpayers are Federal taxpayers.

California leadership is under an even greater microscope now, which seems like an appropriate thing.

Did you raise this point for other natural disasters, like the massive rainstorm event in western North Carolina and surrounding areas?

 

[Nipsey]

Last night I went down the YouTube rabbit hole a little, watching videos of the Palisades before the fires. There was an 8 minute video in my recommendations called the Ultimate Guide to The Palisades. Watching that video and comparing it to the high resolution photos of the fire devastation is eye opening, just to see what was lost and the scope of the fire. I'll link them here if you want to take a look.

Ultimate Guide to Pacific Palisades

High resolution photo of the fire damage

Another video came up in my recommendations of a Palisades home that was listed a few years back. Not the craziest of properties that was in that area but still a multi million dollar house that was lost. You can see the it burned down in the high resolution photo when comparing it to the google map.

12 million dollar Palisades Home listing

Here is the home on Google maps

Also, you can find Spielberg's "priceless" Palisades estate, the old David O. Selznick estate on Amalfi Drive in that high res photo (use Riviera golf course as a guide, it's just north of it in the upper right of the high res photo) and how close it came to burning down. You can also see the Getty Villa.

That's just the Palisades fire. The high res photo of the Eaton fire is here.

It's so surreal to think about how much has been lost. Some people have the financial means to recover but many others do not. They still have to pay their mortgage and at least some adjusted property taxes, in addition to paying for a new place to live all while cleaning up and figuring out what to do next. The fires have brought out the best in people, with many volunteering and donating to help fire victims. It's also brought out the worst, with companies already making low-ball offers on land and trying to take advantage of people in dire financial situations. There has been insane price-gouging for rentals and even looting. People are told to evacuate only to return to find their houses broken into. Thankfully, a few dozen arrests have already been made and these a-holes are going to face serious charges.

 

[Max Power]

Does California have a policy to shut off powerlines during high risk weather conditions? I didn't even know that was a thing until I started reading about the Maui fires.

I think all of these types of measures will be reconsidered....and appropriately so.

It hasn't rained in forever and there a high risk weather conditions regularly. I am unsure if shutting off power lines is an appropriate solution considering how often it would have to happen

Sure, but if California is experiencing an exceptionally dry winter along with stronger winds than normal it would appear to be the right time to consider it (if they even do).

 

[djmich]

This situation aside, I think the bulk of the responsibilities needs to be on the individual homeowner, locality, state, federal, in that order.

Anything that puts the financial responsibility on the federal government will exacerbate the problems as it removes moral hazard from the equation and you end up with people building in places and in ways that they shouldn’t. With localities and states not incented properly to prevent and invest in prevention. The Feds bailing those people out exacerbates the problem. Do Cali or Fla want the Feds running their localities?

In addition it’s effectively terribly regressive tax policy. You have everyone subsidizing wealthy folks building their palaces on beaches and cliffs.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

There's no prevention for 100 mph winds after a fire breaks out either

Does California have a policy to shut off powerlines during high risk weather conditions? I didn't even know that was a thing until I started reading about the Maui fires.

Yes. I don’t know when their algorithm kicks in though.

You can also sign up, and get a discount, for a device that lets them turn off your AC in the highest usage moments. I basically live at the beach so rarely use the AC. No brainer for me.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

Last night I went down the YouTube rabbit hole a little, watching videos of the Palisades before the fires. There was an 8 minute video in my recommendations called the Ultimate Guide to The Palisades. Watching that video and comparing it to the high resolution photos of the fire devastation is eye opening, just to see what was lost and the scope of the fire. I'll link them here if you want to take a look.

Ultimate Guide to Pacific Palisades

High resolution photo of the fire damage

Another video came up in my recommendations of a Palisades home that was listed a few years back. Not the craziest of properties that was in that area but still a multi million dollar house that was lost. You can see the it burned down in the high resolution photo when comparing it to the google map.

12 million dollar Palisades Home listing

Here is the home on Google maps

Also, you can find Spielberg's "priceless" Palisades estate, the old David O. Selznick estate on Amalfi Drive in that high res photo (use Riviera golf course as a guide, it's just north of it in the upper right of the high red photo) and how close it came to burning down. You can also see the Getty Villa.

That's just the Palisades fire. The high res photo of the Eaton fire is here.

It's so surreal to think about how much has been lost. Some people have the financial means to recover but many others do not. They still have to pay their mortgage and at least some adjusted property taxes, in addition to paying for a new place to live all while cleaning up and figuring out what to do next. The fires have brought out the best in people, with many volunteering and donating to help fire victims. It's also brought out the worst, with companies already making low-ball offers on land and trying to take advantage of people in dire financial situations. There has been insane price-gouging for rentals and even looting. People are told to evacuate only to return to find their houses broken into. Thankfully, a few dozen arrests have already been made and these a-holes are going to face serious charges.

Thanks for that high res pic. My daughter’s ex boyfriend’s house survived! The house next to it and all the houses across the street are gone. Crazy. My grandparent’s old house on capri is fine as well. I’m going to Westwood next week for work. I’m sort of dreading it.

 

[TripItUp]

Did you raise this point for other natural disasters, like the massive rainstorm event in western North Carolina and surrounding areas?

As previously implied, I don't consider this fire comparable to the rainstorms.

 

[TripItUp]

Also - you have posted several articles that seem to want to point the finger at the state/county/city government

I provided those articles (From the LA Times and Washington Post) moreso to provide datapoints, not the finger pointing. Inevitably, finger pointing will occur and people will be held accountable, and rightfully so, but I'm not interested in that.

My conversational interest in this thread is focused on the detailed causes of the fires and prevention of them in the future.

 

[TripItUp]

It hasn't rained in forever and there a high risk weather conditions regularly. I am unsure if shutting off power lines is an appropriate solution considering how often it would have to happen

I think it would be one of several measures. Or we can do nothing differently and just live with 100 billion dollar fires...which is obviously not the right solution.

 

[TripItUp]

There is no prevention for Hurricanes but at least you get a week-ish heads up that it's on the way. Wild Fires and Earthquakes just hit out of nowhere.

"Wild" fires can be mitigated and prevented much more easily IMHO.

 

[nirad3]

There's no prevention for 100 mph winds after a fire breaks out either

Does California have a policy to shut off powerlines during high risk weather conditions? I didn't even know that was a thing until I started reading about the Maui fires.

Yes. I don’t know when their algorithm kicks in though.

You can also sign up, and get a discount, for a device that lets them turn off your AC in the highest usage moments. I basically live at the beach so rarely use the AC. No brainer for me.

Paging @acarey50

 

[TripItUp]

Sometimes there is no prevention of fires either.

And many times there are.

I consider a lightning strike in a remote forest very different than a fire caused by a power line 10 miles from one of the largest, richest cities in the world.

 

[TripItUp]

Why are these referred to as "wildfires"?

It seems there is nothing "wild" about man made electricity caused fires.

 

[the moops]

Why are these referred to as "wildfires"?

It seems there is nothing "wild" about electricity caused fires.

The investigation is still underway. Slow your roll man

 

[TripItUp]

On a different note here in North County SD, we have had an influx of LA visitors. Restaurants, hotels and grocery stores were unusually busy this past weekend.

Also, apparently over 400 dogs have been taken in by SD shelters. My wife and I are dog lovers and are trying to facilitate adoption and caretakers. These little guys are helpless.

 

[beer 30]

but this need to point fingers and find blame is disgusting when there are 10,s if not 100's of thousands of people in a horrible situation.

I don't think people in here are as interested in pointing fingers...I think people are concerned that not everything is being done to prevent future loss of human life and property.

It certainly wasn't my intent when I said if you were ever going to bury power lines, now would be a really good time to do it. Not throwing shade on CA or "spending other states money". Man you all are wound tight. How's about we worry about the displaced folks and putting out the fires now?

I mean folks in western NC are still living in tents from Helene in the middle of winter and FEMA is kicking them out of hotels. There's plenty of help needed around these disasters.

 

[ghostguy123]

You keep referring to common sense and figure it out, but you're ignoring the question of who is using common sense and figuring it out, or, more to the point, who is spending the money. The electric company isn't going to spend $100B to put wires underground without recovering that cost somewhere. Taxpayers will throw a fit if you put it on them. Should insurance companies be the ones paying for infrastructure improvements? How does $100B in electric infrastructure solve the problem of high winds and droughts? We'll still have fires, just from a different cause.

If you want this to happen, it's going to have to come from the federal government. That doesn't seem likely in the current political climate.

Why wouldn't the state government be responsible for this?

State government doesn't have hundreds of billions and can't deficit spend. Simple as that.

I'm surprised insurance companies don't have a fleet of water dropping machines deployed.

 

[Sand]

Do they still do fire and fuel breaks in those hills?

 

[DA RAIDERS]

Do they still do fire and fuel breaks in those hills?

If there’s room. The population density is an obvious problem. And the ridiculous cost of the real estate.

They bulldozed some breaks and made it easier to access the remote parts of the canyon across the street from me when it was on fire a few years ago.

ETA the high winds make them fairly pointless though.

 

[Chaos34]

Why are these referred to as "wildfires"?

It seems there is nothing "wild" about man made electricity caused fires.

1) Wildfires and urban fires have different response strategies, which may not matter so much to the public, but it is key to understanding how they're battled. The two big ones are definitely wildfires. The terminology doesn't dictate management and response, it describes it.

2) Jumping the gun with my cart ahead of its horse but the ignition point for the Palisades fire has been isolated by satellite imagery. No power lines in the area. Seemingly valid reports suggest a small New Year's fire occurred in the exact spot and was quickly extinguished. Reasonable speculation very very high winds uncovered and stoked embers that were a few days old. It was started by fireworks. If this story holds, the FD screwed up somehow leaving embers.

The Eaton fire, afaik, is less clear but power lines could certainly be involved. The utilities have already been sued.

 

[SFBayDuck]

Every state is good at telling other states how to do things.

When/if other states have to foot the bill for potential mismanagement, seems like it would be okay for those states to have an opinion...especially since their taxpayers are Federal taxpayers.

California leadership is under an even greater microscope now, which seems like an appropriate thing.

Did you raise this point for other natural disasters, like the massive rainstorm event in western North Carolina and surrounding areas?

Of course not because those don't fit into what sure seems to essentially be a desire to drive a political narrative.

 

[Brony]

man oh man. Some people want to politicize everything in this day and age.

 

[dkp993]

I'm not saying that both don't deserve federal assistance, but I think there are many more things you can do about fire prevention than you can do to stop a tornado or hurricane.

exactly

it's not an apples to apples comparison.

there is no prevention for Hurricanes

Sure. But take Katrina for example. The issue wasn’t the Hurricane per se, it was the levee’s failing that caused the true damage and devastation. I certainly don’t remember any talks of not providing aid because of that.

 

[SFBayDuck]

man oh man. Some people want to politicize everything in this day and age.

I agree, it’s frustrating. I’ve pushed back a couple of times in here, but I’m done doing so. In the old days this thread would have been moved to the PSF already and I never would have even seen it.

 

[dkp993]

There's no prevention for 100 mph winds after a fire breaks out either

Does California have a policy to shut off powerlines during high risk weather conditions? I didn't even know that was a thing until I started reading about the Maui fires.

Besides living here I run 35 different venues across the state. It’s common place during fire season (late fall) for power to be shut off at a few of my venues due to the risk conditions. So much so that we’ve had to install generators to continue to do business during these times. But never have I seen or heard of this in January. That’s how bad and rare the conditions are right now.

 

[massraider]

I don't think people in here are as interested in pointing fingers...I

Definitely not.

Just one guy, far as I can tell.

 

[Gatorade]

Every state is good at telling other states how to do things.

When/if other states have to foot the bill for potential mismanagement, seems like it would be okay for those states to have an opinion...especially since their taxpayers are Federal taxpayers.

California leadership is under an even greater microscope now, which seems like an appropriate thing.

Did you raise this point for other natural disasters, like the massive rainstorm event in western North Carolina and surrounding areas?

That rainstorm in NC was a once in a lifetime event. These fires happen every year now in California.

 

[timschochet]

Update: so starting last Thursday I began to try to find an apartment for my in-laws in West LA. This was not an easy task because as it turned out every agent in the area was being swamped with calls demanding space. There is also, unfortunately, a lot of price gouging going on. Which is really scumbag IMO.

After about 24 hours of stops and starts I got lucky and secured an apartment on Wilshire Blvd, owned by the guy who just happens to once have been probably the worst sports owner in American history: Donald Sterling. But he’s not a bad businessman and his apartments are pretty nice. Anyhow we were able to secure a one year lease, and then get furniture from a rental company. New problem arose: the apartment needs renters insurance, and suddenly that’s really hard to obtain in the area. We will figure that out.

My in laws have tried to return to the Palisades to their property. They have a safe there with important things in it that should have survived the fire. But the police are letting NOBODY access Pacific Coast Highway. Not sure when that restriction will end.

Let me say that the one thing I’ve encountered in this crisis is kindness and cooperation from just about everyone I’ve met (other than the price gougers that is.) Times like this bring out the best in people.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

Did you raise this point for other natural disasters, like the massive rainstorm event in western North Carolina and surrounding areas?

As previously implied, I don't consider this fire comparable to the rainstorms.

Plainly you don't. However, dismissing them as "rainstorms" reveals exactly what your agenda is.

Just because a hurricane is not preventable, doesn't mean that damage can't be mitigated. After Andrew, Florida changed its building codes. The same goes for other weather emergencies.

I guess for you, it's only a problem when it's California. Please take it elsewhere.

 

[nirad3]

Did you raise this point for other natural disasters, like the massive rainstorm event in western North Carolina and surrounding areas?

As previously implied, I don't consider this fire comparable to the rainstorms.

Plainly you don't. However, dismissing them as "rainstorms" reveals exactly what your agenda is.

Just because a hurricane is not preventable, doesn't mean that damage can't be mitigated. After Andrew, Florida changed its building codes. The same goes for other weather emergencies.

I guess for you, it's only a problem when it's California. Please take it elsewhere.

Seriously, this thread is gonna get shut down real fast if the BS keeps being flung about.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

Also, stop feeding the troll, please.

 

[TripItUp]

Plainly you don't. However, dismissing them as "rainstorms" reveals exactly what your agenda is.

the post I quoted used that term, which is why I did. You are barking up the wrong tree here.

 

[TripItUp]

That rainstorm in NC was a once in a lifetime event. These fires happen every year now in California.

excellent point

likening these recurring fires to random natural disasters is intellectually dishonest, or just illogical.

Hopefully that is recognized as future LA fire policy is corrected.

 

[Chaos34]

Let me say that the one thing I’ve encountered in this crisis is kindness and cooperation

Yeah. When I got to my sister's with the UHaul two neighbors were on us immediately making sure we weren't looters. I thanked them for that. Let one of them chat with my sis to ease his mind. Having the code to open the garage wasn't good enough. Both of them helped us pack the truck.

 

[culdeus]

Climate change is going to make a lot of places uninhabitable. Portions of the Carolina's tried to alter the rising waters by building an earth work project. The sea ate it in a few days.

Huge areas of economic activity, docks, ports, marinas, beaches will need to be abandoned soon. There's no cheap solution. People getting dumped by insurance is just the start of the wealth destruction this will bring.

 

[TripItUp]

Climate change is going to make a lot of places uninhabitable. Portions of the Carolina's tried to alter the rising waters by building an earth work project. The sea ate it in a few days.

Huge areas of economic activity, docks, ports, marinas, beaches will need to be abandoned soon. There's no cheap solution. People getting dumped by insurance is just the start of the wealth destruction this will bring.

I have to agree...I keep my fingers crossed that it wont get much worse but it's difficult to be optimistic. If we had any control over China/India etc, I would feel a lot better.

 

[SFBayDuck]

I don't think people in here are as interested in pointing fingers...I

Definitely not.

Just one guy, far as I can tell.

My first time ever using the ignore function, and I’ve been here since ole yeller. Mute one poster and wow! Thread is back to being informative and readable again.

And my blood pressure has lowered enough that hopefully nobody should have to put me on ignore now.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

That rainstorm in NC was a once in a lifetime event. These fires happen every year now in California.

excellent point

likening these recurring fires to random natural disasters is intellectually dishonest, or just illogical.

Hopefully that is recognized as future LA fire policy is corrected.

I must have missed the part where an entire chunk of LA burns and causes $30b of insurable damages and $100b+ of economic damages every year.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

Nom, nom, nom.

 

[fatness]

Did you raise this point for other natural disasters, like the massive rainstorm event in western North Carolina and surrounding areas?

As previously implied, I don't consider this fire comparable to the rainstorms.

Well let's see if they're comparable.

California wildfires
Precipitation far, far below average
High winds, increasing the damage
Houses & other buildings built very close to rivers, streams, creeks
Older houses and other buildings not built to newer standards
Electric lines built aboveground close to burn areas
People from all over the country (and other countries) pitching in to help
An amount of damage never seen before from this kind of storm in this area
Probably exacerbated by climate change
Will take an extremely long time to recover from
Lots of homeless people and others needing help

North Carolina tropical storm remnants
Precipitation far, far above average
High winds, increasing the damage
Houses & other buildings built very close to vegetated areas
Older houses and other buildings not built to newer standards
Electric lines built aboveground close to flood areas
People from all over the country (and other countries) pitching in to help
An amount of damage never seen before from this kind of storm in this area
Probably exacerbated by climate change
Will take an extremely long time to recover from
Lots of homeless people and others needing help

They're very similar events, and there are going to be more of them in the future. What is good right now is the amount of concern and care people have for their countrymen, and their desire to help them. I'm hoping we hold on to that; it kind of binds us together.