Soccer fans: how good is Christian Pulisic? (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

So I don’t really follow soccer. But earlier today on Good Morning America they had a feature segment devoted to this guy. They showed impressive highlights of him at Chelsea. And they threw around words like “superstar” and “the next Lionel Messi”. And he’s American, which made me take notice, because I don’t think we’ve ever had a male American soccer superstar, right? And he’s only 21. 

So is this for real? 

 

[Jaysus]

Never heard of him.  Got a link?

 

[ChiefD]

He sucks.

 

[guru_007]

He's good.  He has two major factors working in his favor.  He's young. He's American.

Current FIFA ranking of 79 - upside of low to mid 80's.  (which is extremely good and I would venture to say the best U.S. player ever).

 

[CletiusMaximus]

So I don’t really follow soccer. But earlier today on Good Morning America they had a feature segment devoted to this guy. They showed impressive highlights of him at Chelsea. And they threw around words like “superstar” and “the next Lionel Messi”. And he’s American, which made me take notice, because I don’t think we’ve ever had a male American soccer superstar, right? And he’s only 21. 

So is this for real? 

"superstar" - yes

"next Lionel Messi" - no

 

[timschochet]

He's good.  He has two major factors working in his favor.  He's young. He's American.

Current FIFA ranking of 79 - upside of low to mid 80's.  (which is extremely good and I would venture to say the best U.S. player ever).

I don’t know anything about that ranking. Can you tell me what would be for legendary guys? (Pele, Messi, Maradona, etc.) Thanks 

 

[timschochet]

And can he make our international team competitive? 

 

[El Floppo]

Comparable numbers between him and Messi, Ronaldo are similar at this age iirc.

He's without a doubt the best US soccer player ever. Top class skills and pace and understanding of the game. He's a guy that can change games, even for the best teams (or at least two very good teams in England and Germany).

He's young though, and still growing into things as a player (peak age for soccer players starting from his age at 21, but usually 24-28). He very well could be a ballon d'or (best in the world) level player if he keeps progressing as he has been and stays healthy.

Bottom line he's good. One of the best couple hundred in the world.

 

[El Floppo]

And can he make our international team competitive? 

Our team is already competitive. 

Can he make them consistently top class? No. He needs the supporting team and staff to be better and healthy.

But that's another question entirely.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

I don’t know anything about that ranking. Can you tell me what would be for legendary guys? (Pele, Messi, Maradona, etc.) Thanks 

I thin guru is referring to the player ranking for the FIFA video game.  Its not very scientific, but probably a good measure of public perception. 

 

[El Floppo]

I don’t know anything about that ranking. Can you tell me what would be for legendary guys? (Pele, Messi, Maradona, etc.) Thanks 

I thin guru is referring to the player ranking for the FIFA video game.  Its not very scientific, but probably a good measure of public perception. 

Never occurred to me, but I'd be curious to see where he ranks overall in FIFA...if they have that available.

 

[NutterButter]

Comparable numbers between him and Messi, Ronaldo are similar at this age iirc.

It looks like Messi was 2nd in voting for player of year when he was 21 if I'm seeing this correctly.   Is it that his numbers are similar, but he's just not getting the same recognition for an award like that?

 

[Gally]

I am not a huge soccer guy but I watch games and understand a bit better than just the basics.  For me, when he is on the field he has an excitement and speed unlike any US player I have ever watched.  He is a difference maker.   I think he needs to get stronger as other teams will get physical with him and he needs to be able to withstand that as the target on the USMNT to take out. 

 

[guru_007]

I don’t know anything about that ranking. Can you tell me what would be for legendary guys? (Pele, Messi, Maradona, etc.) Thanks 

Right, it's like Madden rankings for NFL players, but I think these are much tougher and more accurate a measure of a player.  

World class players are low-mid 90's.  If you're over 80, you're terrific, anything over 85 is outstanding.  Pulisic on the cusp, but never going to be Messi-like, that's really setting the bar unreasonably high.

 

[joffer]

he's no Alexi Lalas

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I think Tim is more looking for some kind of way to quantify how good this kid is relative to other well known players.

He's a great player, but one among hundreds and not near the top of that list.  He gets so much more hype/publicity here because he's so great for an American.

The next Messi?  He's still developing so you never know, but that I think that is a major major longshot.  Were he Dutch or German or the like they'd be talking about him like he's a really good player, but not the type that's going to turn their national team around or anything like that.

I guess we can put it this way.  If you polled 100 fans from a top club like Real Madrid and asked them who they want to pick up in the next transfer window if they could have anyone they wanted I doubt any would mention Pulisic as even a tertiary answer, much less the main one.

Another way to look at it.  Chelsea paid 64 million euros for Pulisic earlier this year.  The similarly aged Kilian Mbappe was acquired by PSG for 180 million euros the year prior, and Real Madrid is likely to pay somewhere around 250 million euros for Mbappe this year.

I guess you could liken it to a small school with a late 1st/early 2nd round NFL draft prospect.  He's probably the best player that school has ever had and they treat him like a god there, but to the rest of the world he's another guy on a decently sized list of nice prospects.

 

[El Floppo]

Comparable numbers between him and Messi, Ronaldo are similar at this age iirc.

It looks like Messi was 2nd in voting for player of year when he was 21 if I'm seeing this correctly.   Is it that his numbers are similar, but he's just not getting the same recognition for an award like that?

My IIRC is tainted.

This was true at 19, when he was outperforming Messi and CRo for club and country.

He hasn't kept up with GOAT candidate Messi. But at 21, he still should compare favorably to just about every body else out there.

Fer instance... Top two players in England (arguably) are Salah and Debruyne, both of whom couldn't break through at similar ages for Chelsea (Chelsea was much better then) and had to head elsewhere before returning to England where they're both dominating as guys in their lat 20s. Pulisic is starting when healthy and performing well.

 

[El Floppo]

I think Tim is more looking for some kind of way to quantify how good this kid is relative to other well known players.

He's a great player, but one among hundreds and not near the top of that list.  He gets so much more hype/publicity here because he's so great for an American.

The next Messi?  He's still developing so you never know, but that I think that is a major major longshot.  Were he Dutch or German or the like they'd be talking about him like he's a really good player, but not the type that's going to turn their national team around or anything like that.

I guess we can put it this way.  If you polled 100 fans from a top club like Real Madrid and asked them who they want to pick up in the next transfer window if they could have anyone they wanted I doubt any would mention Pulisic as even a tertiary answer, much less the main one.

Another way to look at it.  Chelsea paid 64 million euros for Pulisic earlier this year.  The similarly aged Kilian Mbappe was acquired by PSG for 180 million euros the year prior, and Real Madrid is likely to pay somewhere around 250 million euros for Mbappe this year.

I guess you could liken it to a small school with a late 1st/early 2nd round NFL draft prospect.  He's probably the best player that school has ever had and they treat him like a god there, but to the rest of the world he's another guy on a decently sized list of nice prospects.

I think this genuinely undersells the opinion of him overseas. He was adored by Dortmund fans, and Chelsea fans seem to regularly make noise for him to feature more. So in terms of perception and in terms of my own take- he's not just another prospect. He's already a guy people are looking to be a cog or difference maker. 

But yeah- he's definitely not that guy for a Real Madrid, Barcelona or Paris St Germain. But Chelsea is right behind those teams in terms of goals and pocketbook.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

It looks like Messi was 2nd in voting for player of year when he was 21 if I'm seeing this correctly.   Is it that his numbers are similar, but he's just not getting the same recognition for an award like that?

Yeah, Messi scored 38 goals in all competitions (51 appearances) in his age 21 season.  CP hasn't produced at close to that rate.  CP has scored 25 goals in 125 appearances in his club career.  It's harder to find assist numbers, but CP has never had a double-digit season to my knowledge.  Messi certainly took a leap in his age 21 season, but he had scored 16 and 17 goals in all comps in his age 20 and age 19 seasons respectively.  I can distinctly remember pundits saying the Messi had eclipsed Ronaldinho as Barca's best player in age 19 season.

There's only one guy in world football right now who can lay claim to possibly being the next Messi.  And that's Kylian Mbappe.  

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

FWIW, I think a good comp for Pulisic would be someone like Raheem Sterling.  A guy who showed precocious talent at 17, but who didn't seem to get much better in his teen years.  But who nevertheless always looked like he could take the next step, so it wasn't really a big surprise when he put it all together under Pep in his early 20s.  Sterling is somewhere in that top 20 players in the world conversation, which is what I think Pulisic's ceiling is.  

 

[Ilov80s]

I guess you could liken it to a small school with a late 1st/early 2nd round NFL draft prospect.  He's probably the best player that school has ever had and they treat him like a god there, but to the rest of the world he's another guy on a decently sized list of nice prospects.

I like this idea of making other sports related comps. He’s DJ Chark for fantasy this year. It’s exciting because it wasn’t expected. He was really great to have in your lineup but he wasn’t a league winner or even a WR1. He’s likely a 4th round value next year. He’s young and has the potential to become really great but he’s not going to be Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, Calvin Johnson all time great level.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Lots of good comments here.

If everything projects and continues developing, he could be a top 30-40 player in the world by his mid 20's, which is extremely high for an American.  Even at Donovan and Dempsey's peak, not many would have said they cracked the top 100.

By himself he won't make the US a top 10 team.  We need 4-5 more of his level, at least, and that is probably not happening any time soon.

The only thing that will keep Pulisic from reaching that 30-40 level eventually will be whether his body can withstand the grind.  His is an extremely small/thin player and his style of play gets targetted for a ton of cheap shots (especially in international play where other teams the US plays simply try to kick him out of the game (literally) ).

As an aside, I actually believe the guy on the right of my avatar could become a better player than the one on the left (Pulisic).

 

[NewlyRetired]

I guess you could liken it to a small school with a late 1st/early 2nd round NFL draft prospect.  He's probably the best player that school has ever had and they treat him like a god there, but to the rest of the world he's another guy on a decently sized list of nice prospects.

We should also acknowledge that there are millions of publications that rank the best young players in the world and Pulisic was almost always ranked the 3rd best in the 20 and under category, behind only MBappe and Donnarumma.    Pulisic has always been highly regarded ever since he started breaking records (for his age) in Dortmund.

I don't think he will ever be a top 3 player in the world, but I don't think he tops out at being just another good pro either.  Of the ten's of thousands of soccer pro's in the world, he is going to be in the top ~.1% of all players.   

At 21 he is already an important player on a top 20 level team in the entire world.   I think it does him a slight disservice to only consider him a nice prospect at this point.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

He's very good today -- getting minutes on a ~top-10 club worldwide at 21 is hard -- but he's not someone who's getting votes for any major awards at this point, and he's probably the third or fourth best player on his own team.

But he's certainly the best 21 year old the US has ever produced, and the tip of the spear of a whole generation of really good American players between 17-21 right now.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

As an aside, I actually believe the guy on the right of my avatar could become a better player than the one on the left (Pulisic).

I almost said the same.  

It's not inconceivable that eventually Tyler Adams (21) and/or Gio Reyna (17) are considered better players.

 

[TLEF316]

I think Adams needs to put together a full healthy season at a high level before it's a fair comparison.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I think Adams needs to put together a full healthy season at a high level before it's a fair comparison.

Absolutely.  Adams sample size at a top league is too small right now to make any definitive statements.

But the samples themselves are fantastic.  He not only played more games than Pulisic did last spring while they were in the same league together, Adams was unquestionably better over that short span. 

 

[Worm]

Puli is not DJ Chark...

 

[roadkill1292]

As an aside, I actually believe the guy on the right of my avatar could become a better player than the one on the left (Pulisic).

I can't quite make that out. Is that Isaac Hayden?

 

[Ned]

The only thing that will keep Pulisic from reaching that 30-40 level eventually will be whether his body can withstand the grind.  His is an extremely small/thin player and his style of play gets targetted for a ton of cheap shots (especially in international play where other teams the US plays simply try to kick him out of the game (literally) ).

Came here to add this.   

 

[roadkill1292]

Yeah, Messi scored 38 goals in all competitions (51 appearances) in his age 21 season.  CP hasn't produced at close to that rate.  CP has scored 25 goals in 125 appearances in his club career.  It's harder to find assist numbers, but CP has never had a double-digit season to my knowledge.  Messi certainly took a leap in his age 21 season, but he had scored 16 and 17 goals in all comps in his age 20 and age 19 seasons respectively.  I can distinctly remember pundits saying the Messi had eclipsed Ronaldinho as Barca's best player in age 19 season.

There's only one guy in world football right now who can lay claim to possibly being the next Messi.  And that's Kylian Mbappe.  

I think most American sports fans know only of Messi, Ronaldo and Pulisic and are oblivious to the greatness of Mbappe. Although one of my friends did ask me about a player someone else in his office was always talking about, "this guy Harry Payne."

 

[timschochet]

I think most American sports fans know only of Messi, Ronaldo and Pulisic and are oblivious to the greatness of Mbappe. Although one of my friends did ask me about a player someone else in his office was always talking about, "this guy Harry Payne."

Yup. I’ll be honest- I know the first two (though I wouldn’t be able to identify them on sight- maybe Ronaldo, he’s the Portuguese guy right?) I never heard of Pulisic until yesterday morning. I never heard of Mbappe until reading this thread. I have no idea who Harry Payne is. 

 

[roadkill1292]

Yup. I’ll be honest- I know the first two (though I wouldn’t be able to identify them on sight- maybe Ronaldo, he’s the Portuguese guy right?) I never heard of Pulisic until yesterday morning. I never heard of Mbappe until reading this thread. I have no idea who Harry Payne is. 

We all have different interests. I would struggle to name 10 starting QBs in the NFL.

 

[timschochet]

We all have different interests. I would struggle to name 10 starting QBs in the NFL.

Really? How did you end up in a FF forum? 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Yup. I’ll be honest- I know the first two (though I wouldn’t be able to identify them on sight- maybe Ronaldo, he’s the Portuguese guy right?) I never heard of Pulisic until yesterday morning. I never heard of Mbappe until reading this thread. I have no idea who Harry Payne is. 

It's Harry Kane (that was the joke) - an English player who plays for Tottenham in the EPL and is a prolific goal scorer.

 

[timschochet]

It's Harry Kane (that was the joke) - an English player who plays for Tottenham in the EPL and is a prolific goal scorer.

Ah Thx. Umm, how bad is it that I don’t know Tottenham? 

 

[Tom Hagen]

Ah Thx. Umm, how bad is it that I don’t know Tottenham? 

Don't feel bad about it, they never win anything so they are easy to miss.

 

[roadkill1292]

Really? How did you end up in a FF forum? 

Because 20 years ago I knew all of the players and ran a FF league. So I didn't "end up" here as much as I just didn't leave after I left concussion football. 

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Don't feel bad about it, they never win anything so they are easy to miss.

This is what we Arsenal fans are reduced to now. 

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Because 20 years ago I knew all of the players and ran a FF league. So I didn't "end up" here as much as I just didn't leave after I left concussion football. 

This is exactly me. My disinterest in the NFL is a running joke in my league. I had to bring in fatguy just to have someone who knew something. 

 

[roadkill1292]

This is exactly me. My disinterest in the NFL is a running joke in my league. I had to bring in fatguy just to have someone who knew something. 

You can always find other things to talk about if your friends are good ones. I have three good ones who only mock me with affection.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

This is exactly me. My disinterest in the NFL is a running joke in my league. I had to bring in fatguy just to have someone who knew something. 

Well that didn't exactly work as planned.

 

[roadkill1292]

We should tranquilize fatguy and make him go to a World Cup game with us in '26.

 

[Ned]

Ah Thx. Umm, how bad is it that I don’t know Tottenham? 

Don't feel bad about it, they never win anything so they are easy to miss.

https://gph.is/2c1Drdx

 

[charvik]

I think Tim is more looking for some kind of way to quantify how good this kid is relative to other well known players.

He's a great player, but one among hundreds and not near the top of that list.  He gets so much more hype/publicity here because he's so great for an American.

The next Messi?  He's still developing so you never know, but that I think that is a major major longshot.  Were he Dutch or German or the like they'd be talking about him like he's a really good player, but not the type that's going to turn their national team around or anything like that.

I guess we can put it this way.  If you polled 100 fans from a top club like Real Madrid and asked them who they want to pick up in the next transfer window if they could have anyone they wanted I doubt any would mention Pulisic as even a tertiary answer, much less the main one.

Another way to look at it.  Chelsea paid 64 million euros for Pulisic earlier this year.  The similarly aged Kilian Mbappe was acquired by PSG for 180 million euros the year prior, and Real Madrid is likely to pay somewhere around 250 million euros for Mbappe this year.

I guess you could liken it to a small school with a late 1st/early 2nd round NFL draft prospect.  He's probably the best player that school has ever had and they treat him like a god there, but to the rest of the world he's another guy on a decently sized list of nice prospects.

I think this sums it up very nicely, and put in understandable terms for non-soccer people.

bravo!

 

[charvik]

My thoughts is that he is by far the most important player for US soccer to be set up for a big push. There have been a lot of other American players before him, which all have produced “firsts”, but he is a young guy, with good promise playing on fairly highly ranked teams in Europe.

There’s a long way to go, and development has to happen the right way for him, some luck as well, but he has good potential. 
 

what is more important to me is how he inspires the next bunch of kids coming through academies. Like someone else said, you need a bigger pool of prospects, all growing up together to consistently compete in world cups, etc. I’m sure it will come, the sport is so young so far. There are many aspects still needing to be sorted out though, and a lot of investment needed.

 

[The Z Machine]

Interesting read through on this from about 4 years ago. I think most would say that he hasn't reached his peak yet, and he still has upside. However, that upside is pretty well known at this point and there are some small areas where there are questions, mostly around durability and scoring from distance. Finally, it's still TBD if he can elevate the USMNT beyond it's typical position in world rankings (and tourney performance).

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Pulisic didn't make the Guardian 100 list this year. No American did, I believe. Now, if he continues his good form, he'll probably make it next year. But I doubt they'll put him in the top 50. Even if he might deserve it. A super hot second half giving him something like 15/10 would probably force their hand though.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Pulisic didn't make the Guardian 100 list this year. No American did, I believe. Now, if he continues his good form, he'll probably make it next year. But I doubt they'll put him in the top 50. Even if he might deserve it. A super hot second half giving him something like 15/10 would probably force their hand though.

This is probably the best he has played since the short period during the lock down when he was phenomenal.

Of course his good run during the first half of the season also coincides with him having a decent run of health.

He is in his prime years now and this is probably close to the best he will get, top 100, top 75 what ever. Whether he can hold those levels for a few years will very likely come down to whether his body will allow it.

It is interesting that you mentioned the Guardian Top 100. They ranked his AC Milan teammate, and opposite winger, Leao as the 30th best player in the world. And by most accounts, Pulisic has been the better of the two so far this year.

 

[encaitar]

Pulisic didn't make the Guardian 100 list this year. No American did, I believe. Now, if he continues his good form, he'll probably make it next year. But I doubt they'll put him in the top 50. Even if he might deserve it. A super hot second half giving him something like 15/10 would probably force their hand though.

This is probably the best he has played since the short period during the lock down when he was phenomenal.

Of course his good run during the first half of the season also coincides with him having a decent run of health.

He is in his prime years now and this is probably close to the best he will get, top 100, top 75 what ever. Whether he can hold those levels for a few years will very likely come down to whether his body will allow it.

It is interesting that you mentioned the Guardian Top 100. They ranked his AC Milan teammate, and opposite winger, Leao as the 30th best player in the world. And by most accounts, Pulisic has been the better of the two so far this year.

Leao is ranked 30, Giroud is ranked 50, yet almost every Milan fan will say that Pulisic has been the best of their front 3.

Real interesting going through that list IMO. Kvaratskhelia is ranked 12th and he plays the same position as Pulisic except for Napoli. He has 5 goals and 4 assists this season in all comps. Pulisic has 7 goals and 6 assists.

I also saw that CIES has Chukwueze(who is Pulisic's backup right now) at a value of $50M, while Pulisic is valued at $40M.... I always find the way they figure these things to be a bit odd.