Some FBG advice/opinions of commission fraud that I discovered at my workplace (1 Viewer)

[jvdesigns2002]

Hey Guys and Gals,

I would appreciate some opinions, advice or feedback on a work situation that I'm currently in.   If you've had a similar experience at your workplace--I would also love to hear anything on how it was handled there. 

I manage a business and recently discovered that an employee has attempted to fraudulently "steal" commissions from one of his superiors.  He did this by puposely removing the superiors name on a few sales tickets.  We are talking about a decent amount of money here--he attempted to steal over $2000 worth of commission.   I did catch the attempted theft (commission fraud) before commissions were paid and I'm not quite sure what to recommend the owner does to remedy the situation.  Is this a fire-able offense?  Should this employee get put on probation?   Also--the sales that he tried to steal were split sales--between him and the superior (essentially he cut the superiors name off of his his half of the sales)--should he lose all of his commission to the superior that he tried to rip off?    I'm a bit torn on what I think is appropriate.   Thank you in advance.   Jeff. 

 

[brun]

Fire immediately 

 

[Steve Tasker]

Fire immediately 

end of story

 

[bueno]

Terminate

 

[ZenMaster]

I think he's entitled to his share of the commission since it was a split sale.

Then you can fire him.

 

[Mitch Robbins]

Are you sure he did it on purpose?

Sure there wasn't some sort of an agreement with the other guy?

 

[GroveDiesel]

I think he's entitled to his share of the commission since it was a split sale.

Then you can fire him.

Yup. He earned the commission. If you don't pay it, the company will likely get sued. But he also is immediately fired. 

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Are you sure he did it on purpose?

Sure there wasn't some sort of an agreement with the other guy?

It was absolutely done on purpose.   We have a very small staff and the other party was completely unaware of it when I approached him about the first "attempted fraud" that I found.  He then said that we should probably check all of the other orders to see if this employee did it to anybody else--and sure enough..we found a second one he did the same superior.   The owner has approached the employee in question  about it--and he basically admitted doing it--but says that he did it because he has "commission" concerns of his own.     However--when we have "commission" concerns-the protocol is to pull those questionable sales aside--and have either myself or the owner come up with the fairest way to keep things equitable for each side.  We've never had an employee actually take it on himself to find it appropriate to usurp the protocol and just remove a name off of one.   With that being said--we don't have a protocol on what happens should an employee do this--and this is why I'm asking for opinions.  

 

[jvdesigns2002]

I think he's entitled to his share of the commission since it was a split sale.

Then you can fire him.

I was thinking this--but one of my work associates said that paying him any commission for a deal where he basically attempted theft would be nothing short of ridiculous.   That's the only reason I asked.  

 

[Mohawk]

Fire him/her asap.

 

[Johnny Rock]

Since you already researched other possible instances, questioned him and he admitted it, he can't be trusted. He needs to be terminated.

Fire him for "submitting incorrect sales documentation" or some other wording not related to theft, unless you have a signed statement from him admitting theft. 

Pay him what he's owed and take the high road as a professional. By that I mean when others ask about him, simply say, "Joe no longer works here. That's all I can tell you. If you want to ask Joe that's fine." This shows other employees that you are professional and treat others with respect, but that you're decisive and take necessary action. Gossiping about it doesn't help and they know why he was fired already; no need to repeat it.

Good job catching it early.

 

[Johnny Rock]

Since you already researched other possible instances, questioned him and he admitted it, he can't be trusted. He needs to be terminated.

Fire him for "submitting incorrect sales documentation" or some other wording not related to theft, unless you have a signed statement from him admitting theft. 

Pay him what he's owed and take the high road as a professional. By that I mean when others ask about him, simply say, "Joe no longer works here. That's all I can tell you. If you want to ask Joe that's fine." This shows other employees that you are professional and treat others with respect, but that you're decisive and take necessary action. Gossiping about it doesn't help and they know why he was fired already; no need to repeat it.

Good job catching it early.

 

[johnnycakes]

My link. 

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Thank you for the various responses guys.  I am a bit surprised that the advice/opinion so far is unanimously in the favor of termination.  I wasn't expecting that. 

 

[CletiusMaximus]

I was thinking this--but one of my work associates said that paying him any commission for a deal where he basically attempted theft would be nothing short of ridiculous.   That's the only reason I asked.  

Be very careful withholding earned commissions. Obviously don't pay the fraudulent portion, but I think its most likely unwise to withhold the earned portion, whether or not you terminate him.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Thank you for the various responses guys.  I am a bit surprised that the advice/opinion so fair is unanimously in the favor of termination.  I wasn't expecting that. 

I'm surprised some on here haven't determined that it was your fault

 

[jvdesigns2002]

I'm surprised some on here haven't determined that it was your fault

How so? Lol.   I've been the manager for over 10 years and have been working at the same place for over 20 years.  We've never once had a case of internal employee theft or fraud and are on pace for our best year in history.     I was actually leaning towards recommending putting him in a probationary status where all of his sales/receipts need to be double and triple checked by his superiors--and to penalize him his half of the commission for the sale that he tried to fraudulently steal.     If he didn't agree to those terms--then termination would be the only option we have.  This stance sounds like daisies compared the opinions in here so far--but I can see how keeping him on staff is a big liability.  

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Yeah, you didn't get it

 

[ChiefD]

Gotta fire the guy. The name of the game in sales is trust.

You trust him to represent your company, and customers trust him that he is representing your company fairly. Can't trust a guy trying to fudge his own numbers.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Yeah, you didn't get it

I'll admit it--that one flew over my head.   

 

[need2know]

Fire that turd

 

[Jules Winnfield]

I'll admit it--that one flew over my head.   

You bring him in the office and then bring in the gentleman he tried screwing out of commission. 

Let him explain it to him.

BTW...you fire him

 

[IC FBGCav]

I'm surprised some on here haven't determined that it was your fault

I am surprised some didn't say promote him.   He is a real go-getter and nothing will stop him from getting what he wants.  Murica.

 

[Joe Summer]

Go back and check all of his old sales receipts.

 

[cockroach]

Since you already researched other possible instances, questioned him and he admitted it, he can't be trusted. He needs to be terminated.

Actually, since he admitted it and gave a reason why, there is a possibility that he CAN be trusted.  I read the OP and immediately thought "terminate at will" also.  But if there's more to the story the guy should investigate.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Go back and check all of his old sales receipts.

I'm in the process of doing that now.   I've heard rumblings from fellow employees that he "poaches" and "invades" sales from them in the past--but I haven't seen him be brazen enough to actually purposely change/alter the salespersons name on a receipt until now.   I've gone back through 2 months--and so far I haven't seen any clear evidence of any other altering of sales. However--he's been working there for a few years--so this will be a long process. 

 

[The Tick]

I'm in the process of doing that now.   I've heard rumblings from fellow employees that he "poaches" and "invades" sales from them in the past--but I haven't seen him be brazen enough to actually purposely change/alter the salespersons name on a receipt until now.   I've gone back through 2 months--and so far I haven't seen any clear evidence of any other altering of sales. However--he's been working there for a few years--so this will be a long process. 

This guys outright dishonesty has created that much work for you now and in the future as you will have to keep watch on him.  If this leaks out to other employees, which it will, it will likely start to effect daily operations as no one will want to risk working with him again.  Don't see how you can justify keeping him around.

Lesson learned by him the hard way that he can put into practice somewhere else.

 

[Koya]

I'm surprised some on here haven't determined that it was your fault

Or Obama's.

 

[CBusAlex]

Or Obama's.

And I was sure there'd be a few "sleep with his wife"s by now.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Actually, since he admitted it and gave a reason why, there is a possibility that he CAN be trusted.  I read the OP and immediately thought "terminate at will" also.  But if there's more to the story the guy should investigate.

The employee that got caught is a very likable person and in brutal honesty is a great sales person (and this is not from stealing sales).  I don't much too much emphasis on him admitting it because our system is that we write receipts in sales books before they are each entered into a computer.  We have a relatively small staff and we all have distinct handwriting--so there was no real way he could "deny" that it was him.   

 

[McGarnicle]

Sleep with his wife/significant other/sister/mother

Or grandmother imo. Some dude bangs your meemaw, you know they're not messing around.

 

[cockroach]

The employee that got caught is a very likable person and in brutal honesty is a great sales person (and this is not from stealing sales).  I don't much too much emphasis on him admitting it because our system is that we write receipts in sales books before they are each entered into a computer.  We have a relatively small staff and we all have distinct handwriting--so there was no real way he could "deny" that it was him.   

Sounds like he'll have plenty of opportunities when you release him then, but I would get down to the bottom of "Why?" before you let him go and see if there's a legit complaint about his supervisor.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Sounds like he'll have plenty of opportunities when you release him then, but I would get down to the bottom of "Why?" before you let him go and see if there's a legit complaint about his supervisor.

The apparent "why" is that he felt like a previous sale from a month prior with the same superior should have been all his.  The weird thing is that the superior did the majority of the work on that sale--but both him and the superior agreed to split it at the time.   Apparently--it sounds like he was never fully happy with that decision that he agreed upon--and my guess is that he was trying to get back some of what he thought he sacrificed away.  The funny thing is that the superior did the vast majority of work on the sale that he's questioning--as this sale happened in the presence of both the owner and I.   It's a very weird situation--it's literally a case of an otherwise great worker doing something massively stupid.  

 

[Cjw_55106]

As long as you have proof, pay him his share and terminate. Easy decision here. The guy seemingly tried to screw not only a coworker, but his boss. Not much to discuss IMO. 

 

[Joe Summer]

How badly do you need his services? Seems like he's a good salesman but not very ethical. (Which, I suppose, is pretty much the definition of a good salesman.)

 

[sbonomo]

Since you already researched other possible instances, questioned him and he admitted it, he can't be trusted. He needs to be terminated.

Fire him for "submitting incorrect sales documentation" or some other wording not related to theft, unless you have a signed statement from him admitting theft. 

Pay him what he's owed and take the high road as a professional. By that I mean when others ask about him, simply say, "Joe no longer works here. That's all I can tell you. If you want to ask Joe that's fine." This shows other employees that you are professional and treat others with respect, but that you're decisive and take necessary action. Gossiping about it doesn't help and they know why he was fired already; no need to repeat it.

Good job catching it early.




 

You always give good advice...this is exactly how i would handle it.  

 

[spOOfy]

so basically he disagreed with a decision that was made on a previous sale where he thought he was "entitled" to more money, so he went behind your backs to get the money he thought he deserved.  you know what that's called?  stealing.

fire him. 

 

[spOOfy]

oh, and i agree he should be paid for the work he actually did before you can him.  only the portion he earned, of course.

 

[SameSongNDance]

Give him a promotion. 

 

[Ghost Rider]

Fire him immediately.  No-brainer.

Odds are that he is already looking for another job already since he has to know the hammer is coming down soon. 

 

[The Big Guy]

If the guy is willing too screw over a manager for half a commission, then he will absolutely screw over the business to earn a check making a bad (unprofitable )sale. 

Fire him immediately. The rest of the staff will know why, but take the high road and release a nice generic policy regarding sales and commission splitting shortly after.

 

[cstu]

I think he's entitled to his share of the commission since it was a split sale.

Then you can fire him.

 

[cstu]

so basically he disagreed with a decision that was made on a previous sale where he thought he was "entitled" to more money, so he went behind your backs to get the money he thought he deserved.  you know what that's called?

fire him. 

Management material?

 

[RUSF18]

so basically he disagreed with a decision that was made on a previous sale where he thought he was "entitled" to more money, so he went behind your backs to get the money he thought he deserved.  you know what that's called?  stealing.

fire him. 

"Entitlement" and getting more money for what he "deserved" is how basically every embezzlement case begins. 

 

[IMAX 3D]

Sleep with his wife

 

[The Z Machine]

Promote him to the unemployment line.

 

[Johnny Rock]

You always give good advice...this is exactly how i would handle it.  

Aww, thanks! 

 

[Johnny Rock]

Actually, since he admitted it and gave a reason why, there is a possibility that he CAN be trusted.  I read the OP and immediately thought "terminate at will" also.  But if there's more to the story the guy should investigate.

Admitting it on your own and admitting it under questioning are night and day. I am yet to see someone come in on their own and admit to internal theft and I've been catching internal theft for over 21 years. He cannot be trusted. 

 

[Johnny Rock]

Go back and check all of his old sales receipts.

OP said earlier that he had already gone back and looked over all the past receipts and found one other instance. 

I based my original answer on that. I thought the investigation was done.

If there were more years' receipts to go through still I would've investigated those first and THEN interviewed him with all your cards in your pocket. 

There are many techniques you can use to get them to admit to what you already KNOW they've done. It's not easy nor should that responsibility be taken lightly. The trick is to use that information to get them to admit to EVERYTHING they've done, including things you don't know about but they're sure you do. 

Once you show them your evidence it changes everything. That's why I skipped this portion above. In instances regarding employee theft, remember not to reveal what you know unless you absolutely have to and don't ask any questions unless you are prepared to deal with the answer. One way to start such conversations is with a simple statement such as, "Is there anything you want to tell me?"

 

[QuizGuy66]

Nominate him for Vice-President in Cleveland.

-QG