What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Standard, performance, ppr, .5ppr scoring, Which...? (4 Viewers)

Team Smokin'

Footballguy
Which type of scoring do you prefer?

Any links to this preferable scoring system please? We're looking at changing...tweaking some. I realize each league may offer various forms of custom scoring.

What I like is all rush or receiving yards go the tenth place of scoring instead of waiting to hit that even next digit up. For instance, Cooper Kupp goes for 86 yards = 8.6 points. Dion Lewis rushes for 115 yards = 11.5 points.

Personally I like standard or performance scoring and perhaps .5 ppr? Or perhaps 1 ppr for TE's?

 
I’ve played in standard, .5 and full point. My longest league was standard up until this year. I started my own at .5 and invited that commish and he liked it so much he finally switched. 

IMO full point is too much I like the .5 the most by far. 

 
Non ppr. 

There is no longer a need to overcorrect for an imbalance between rb and wr/te scoring.

in all honesty, it is ultimately a matter of personal preference. 

 
PPR was a correction for bellcow backs dominating FF in the 1990's.  It sort of worked, but throughout the 21st century it has been an overcorrection, inflating the value of mediocre WRs over star RBs.  Worse, it artificially inflates the value of 3rd down RBs over the workhorses they come in in relief of.

It's an idea whose time has come and gone, but because people react slowly to change, it achieved widespread use just as it stopped being useful, and now will take another decade or two to die.

PPFD is the wave of the future.

 
PPR was a correction for bellcow backs dominating FF in the 1990's.  It sort of worked, but throughout the 21st century it has been an overcorrection, inflating the value of mediocre WRs over star RBs.  Worse, it artificially inflates the value of 3rd down RBs over the workhorses they come in in relief of.

It's an idea whose time has come and gone, but because people react slowly to change, it achieved widespread use just as it stopped being useful, and now will take another decade or two to die.

PPFD is the wave of the future.
Any links or scoring system for PPFD and that stands for?

 
I like PPR. Makes for more fun
Because more is better?

I think we were standard up until 2011ish. I’m leaning towards going to 0.5 PPR next year.

The challenging thing in our league is finding production from the last two spots. We had factions in league who wanted Flex so we added it, went back and forth on 2WR/2RB/1FL and 2WR/1RB/2FL and 3WR/1RB/1FL - the 2RB crowd won out so as a compromise we added another position. Current setup in its third year:

QB WR WR WR RB RB TE WRT K DST 

BN BN BN BN BN BN 

8 offensive starters makes a big difference over having 7.

In 16 x 12 the WW becomes barren pretty quick, but it’s a fun challenge.

 
Which type of scoring do you prefer?

Any links to this preferable scoring system please? We're looking at changing...tweaking some. I realize each league may offer various forms of custom scoring.

What I like is all rush or receiving yards go the tenth place of scoring instead of waiting to hit that even next digit up. For instance, Cooper Kupp goes for 86 yards = 8.6 points. Dion Lewis rushes for 115 yards = 11.5 points.

Personally I like standard or performance scoring and perhaps .5 ppr? Or perhaps 1 ppr for TE's?
One tweak we made a few years ago was to add some categories to the DST scoring so it wasn’t so heavily dependent on Points Allowed.

4th Down Stops - 1 pt

Tackle for Loss - 0.25

Defensive Yards Allowed: Negative - 10 pts 0-99 7 pts 100-199 4 pts 200-299 1 pt 300-399 0 pts 400-499 (-1) pt 500+ (-4) pts 

Three and Outs Forced - 0.50

Second thing we did - and this gets REALLY crazy - we have bonus points for plays over 40 yards plus milestones bonuses (100 yards rushing/receiving, 300 yards passing.) Week 10 this year I was playing the #1 seed (I was #2) and after TNF & near the end of the 1pm games I was comfortably ahead (like 75-80% projection to win.) Golden Tate took a short pass 40 yards for a TD & not 20 seconds later AJ Green caught a 70 yard TD. He had both WR + Stafford + Prater - 40.60 points! Thought my house on fire, iPhone alerts went ballistic. I instantly went to a 20% probability to win.

:lol:

 
Second thing we did - and this gets REALLY crazy - we have bonus points for plays over 40 yards plus milestones bonuses (100 yards rushing/receiving, 300 yards passing.) Week 10 this year I was playing the #1 seed (I was #2) and after TNF & near the end of the 1pm games I was comfortably ahead (like 75-80% projection to win.) Golden Tate took a short pass 40 yards for a TD & not 20 seconds later AJ Green caught a 70 yard TD. He had both WR + Stafford + Prater - 40.60 points! Thought my house on fire, iPhone alerts went ballistic. I instantly went to a 20% probability to win.
Tastes vary, and just because I don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong and people shouldn't do it.  But I very much dislike any sort of arbitrary bonus like this.

The whole drive to decimal scoring revolved around the unfairness of 9 rushing yards meaning nothing, but a 10th yard suddenly earning a point.  Bonuses at 100 yards, or for long plays, do the same thing.  Suddenly a receiver catching 99 yards is significantly worse than a receiver catching 101, but almost the same as a receiver catching 97.

Not a fan, personally.

 
Tastes vary, and just because I don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong and people shouldn't do it.  But I very much dislike any sort of arbitrary bonus like this.

The whole drive to decimal scoring revolved around the unfairness of 9 rushing yards meaning nothing, but a 10th yard suddenly earning a point.  Bonuses at 100 yards, or for long plays, do the same thing.  Suddenly a receiver catching 99 yards is significantly worse than a receiver catching 101, but almost the same as a receiver catching 97.

Not a fan, personally.
I hear ya. The defensive stuff I came up with; the bonus values were suggestions in our offseason thread a few years ago. As Commish I’ve always felt like my job is to simply administrate, the league belongs equally to each team. So I implemented even though I wasn’t crazy about it, and it’s been hugely popular. One cool thing about it is you can pick up 14-18 points in one snap - you can be way behind watching SNF / MNF & one splash play flips it. (The milestone bonus is only 1 pt so NBD.)

For comparative purposes, I think my team led the league at around 145 per week.

(also, for comparison purposes, the top DSTs this year were JAX 259.75 BAL 242.75 PHI 219.25 LAR 217.50. That elevates a top DST to borderline low end WR1/WR2 range.)

 
Last edited by a moderator:
PPR. Creates value for 3rd down backs and marginal WRs as flex players.

But the glaring omission here is IDP. Individual Defensive Players = single greatest way to play fantasy football 

all the systems you mentioned are only 1/2 the game. Team D/ST is for the weak & lazy.

Draft defensive backs, linebackers & defensive ends, ya bunch of wussies. 

Playing 7 defensive players alongside your 9 starting players is the ideal - and moreover makes watching the games exponentially more fun because you’re not rooting for 1/2 a game. It’s awesome to have a “holy grail” defensive play like a sack (5) FF (2) DFR (2) DTD (6) from a linebacker, or a pick (5) 6 (6) from your defensive back. 

It allows for more creativity at the draft and creates more ways to win. The dude who won this year’s LCG had the 11th ranked QB & 8th ranked run game, but the #1 defense & WRs. 

More ways to win = more competitive balance = more parity = more interested owners = more transaction fees = more fun league. 

My $.02

 
PPR. Creates value for 3rd down backs and marginal WRs as flex players.

But the glaring omission here is IDP. Individual Defensive Players = single greatest way to play fantasy football 

all the systems you mentioned are only 1/2 the game. Team D/ST is for the weak & lazy.

Draft defensive backs, linebackers & defensive ends, ya bunch of wussies. 

Playing 7 defensive players alongside your 9 starting players is the ideal - and moreover makes watching the games exponentially more fun because you’re not rooting for 1/2 a game. It’s awesome to have a “holy grail” defensive play like a sack (5) FF (2) DFR (2) DTD (6) from a linebacker, or a pick (5) 6 (6) from your defensive back. 

It allows for more creativity at the draft and creates more ways to win. The dude who won this year’s LCG had the 11th ranked QB & 8th ranked run game, but the #1 defense & WRs. 

More ways to win = more competitive balance = more parity = more interested owners = more transaction fees = more fun league. 

My $.02
No question, I can't imagine ever joining a new league that doesn't do it.  It completely changes how you watch football too, it brings me back to when I first started playing FF and how much THAT change how I watched football. 

 
Absolutely IDP.  Team defense is even more of a dinosaur than non-decimal scoring and td-only leagues.  PPR is just a wooly mammoth by comparison.

Team D comes from the days when USA Today only printed turnovers and sacks.  Now we have real time scoring of every player on the field.  Folks who prefer Team D should also be considering Team QB, Team RB, and Team WR.  Or maybe just betting on a team.

 
FTN. I tried IDP several times. Don't you people have WAGs?  :loco:

But seriously, I only run one league these days, and all our guys are entrepreneurs or family men who barely have time to work the WW as it is, I can't imagine trying to implement IDP. I've been trying to school them on FAAB for three years. Send them 101 articles every year and post general guidelines on the league site message board on how it should work, they still mess it up. 

OK, brother - kudos for snagging Kerwynn Williams when your #1 pick went down, but you probably didn't need to spend 60% on him. Spending the remaining 40% on ADP two weeks later didn't make up for your stupidity, either. Though I do appreciate landing Tarik Cohen & Alex Collins for $5.

Another guy realized late in year he hadn't used most of his FAAB so he spent $52 on Justin Tucker during his bye week. It's adorable.

 
I actually like full point ppr for some of the reasons others are against it.  It elevates the 3rd down back to expand the pool of rbs that actually have value.  But whether it is full or half, it doesn't really matter as scores will remain remarkably close.  The fault I have with full ppr is it really does inflate the value of high volume elite WRs.  Does AB really need any help to be even more awesome?

 
FTN. I tried IDP several times. Don't you people have WAGs?  :loco:

But seriously, I only run one league these days, and all our guys are entrepreneurs or family men who barely have time to work the WW as it is, I can't imagine trying to implement IDP. I've been trying to school them on FAAB for three years. Send them 101 articles every year and post general guidelines on the league site message board on how it should work, they still mess it up. 

OK, brother - kudos for snagging Kerwynn Williams when your #1 pick went down, but you probably didn't need to spend 60% on him. Spending the remaining 40% on ADP two weeks later didn't make up for your stupidity, either. Though I do appreciate landing Tarik Cohen & Alex Collins for $5.

Another guy realized late in year he hadn't used most of his FAAB so he spent $52 on Justin Tucker during his bye week. It's adorable.
I found idp easier to implement than blind bidding, as far as my local league.

It's just more positions and players, but FF players already know how to evaluate players relative to each other, rank them, and play matchups.  The art of bidding psychology is a whole different game that does take time and practice to master.

 
There seems to be an argument that PPR gives the 3rd down back some value. It also gives added value to any pass catcher, including WR and TE's as well. There are maybe 3-4 RB's in the top 25 (PPR scoring) that would be considered a 3rd down back. 

http://games.espn.com/ffl/leaders?slotCategoryId=2

The league I run has double IDP(2DL, 2LB and 2DB), full PPR with a 1.5 premium for TE's. All of this with a yearly auction for our 12 owners. One complaint I never get from the other 11 owners is the PPR scoring we have. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I really believe in PPR premium for TE's. I mean catching 4 balls for 45 yards / no TD's in standard scoring is barely worth anything. Giving a full PPR or in your case, 1.5 PPR, would at least give hope. I like it where every play has some sort of value. We put into place .2 points for rush. I don't really like it because a runner could get zero yards or even a loss and get rewarded. For me 5 yards rushing = .5 points.

Our league is a dinosaur league and too complicated to teach any new members. This is another reason I posted this as our dialogue around 2018 changes come next week during our 6-team playoff draft. 

I kinda like how FootballGuys score in their contests. Anyone else like their scoring format? IDP and Team Defense seems like way too much to learn about. We do have other lives and just to keep up with offensive players is overwhelming. I can understand how some leagues may enjoy the defensive tackles and making plays so every down offers some kind of excitement on both sides of the ball.

Any links that would show scoring you wish to share?

 
I have played all of the formats mentioned here except for points for 1st downs, which is an idea that I do really like.

I think the decision does hinge somewhat on you leagues starting requirements/options.

Personally I think standard scoring is the most fair. A reception is already more valuable than a rushing attempt in terms of the average yardage gained on a reception compared to a rushing attempt. So giving a player additional points for the reception just compounds this disparity.

For dynasty formats PPR becomes even more unbalanced, as receivers tend to have longer useful careers than RBs do. So you end up not just doubling the effect of a play with a reception, but tripling it with the extra years such a player can play.

Dynasty formats are intended to be long term, so having the right scoring for the starting positions becomes a lot more important. You do not want to be changing the scoring rules in dynasty frequently, as this throws off the long term planning of the owners. I think standard is a better format for dynasty.

I say this while recognizing that WR scoring has been down for 2 years in a row now. The disparity of PPR became even more obvious with the peak of WR scoring and the talent of the RB pool being pretty low 2013-2015.

However if you league allows teams to start 3 RB or some even allow 4 RB starters, there are only 32 NFL teams, so expanding the pool of viable starters from that position does make a certain amount of sense and PPR can help that.

I think if you are allowing owners to start more RB then PPR scoring begins to make a bit more sense.

.5 PPR is a compromise and doesn't change the value of a reception as much as full PPR does. I do like the idea of giving the TE position more points by applying .5 PPR in standard or 1 PPR if you are doing .5 PPR for other positions. The TE position has too few viable players in it, so increasing the points that the TE position scores relative to the other positions helps correct that and brings TEs closer to the other positions in terms of total points scored or average points per game.

The alternative would be points for 1st downs instead of PPR scoring, or it could just be added on top of that. I think it is a more realistic award than PPR is. A player getting a 1st down is actually doing something valuable for their team trying to score a TD, while a reception doesn't really do that unless it also leads to producing a 1st down.

As far as IDP I do prefer that to team defense. However IDP scoring is counter intuitive. It often awards players who are not good defenders over ones who are. A player making a lot of tackles is not really a sign of that player being good, especially if that player is a corner back. A good corner will be avoided by the opposing offense most of the time, thus giving that player fewer opportunities to make tackles or passes defensed than a player who is weak in coverage and being targeted more frequently because of that.

 
Biabreakable said:
As far as IDP I do prefer that to team defense. However IDP scoring is counter intuitive. It often awards players who are not good defenders over ones who are. A player making a lot of tackles is not really a sign of that player being good, especially if that player is a corner back. A good corner will be avoided by the opposing offense most of the time, thus giving that player fewer opportunities to make tackles or passes defensed than a player who is weak in coverage and being targeted more frequently because of that.
A fair complaint but not unique to IDP.

Volume plays exist at CB and RB alike, where less talented players amass a pile of stats because of the opportunities afforded them.

 
Mike Clay‏Verified account @MikeClayNFL

A stat line only a PPR apologist could love:

Boston Scott: 6 catches, 7 yards (6.7 fantasy points)

6:07 PM - 22 Dec 2019

 
As far as IDP I do prefer that to team defense. However IDP scoring is counter intuitive. It often awards players who are not good defenders over ones who are. A player making a lot of tackles is not really a sign of that player being good, especially if that player is a corner back. A good corner will be avoided by the opposing offense most of the time, thus giving that player fewer opportunities to make tackles or passes defensed than a player who is weak in coverage and being targeted more frequently because of that.
Another key in IDP scoring is coming up with a system that equals the offensive scoring otherwise IDP becomes an afterthought.  This includes increasing the number of IDP starters to be at least equal to the offensive starters.  If you only start one or two IDP guys it makes them like kickers so you might as well not have them.

The real difficulty with crafting the scoring for IDP's is to minimize the boom/bust nature that is common for most positions.  Edge guys and CB's in particular typically hinge on the big plays (I.e. ---  sack or interception).   I have found that by breaking down all of the stats for a sack/int have helped smooth out the boom/bust nature.  By awarding points for QB hits, Tackle for Loss, Pass Defensed, pressures, etc you allow someone to accumulate points whether or not they actually get the "counting" stat. 

For example, you can have an edge buy like Nick Bosa still get 6 pts (3 pts for each QB hit) even though he didn't record a tackle.  Without separating this out and just awarding points for sacks and tackles he gets a zero even though he did have an affect on the game by pressuring the QB and hitting him. 

I have also found that using "big play" scoring helps diversify the quality players and allows you to build your team in very different ways and still be competitive.  It also awards those that do their own research as you can't use just a run of the mill IDP cheatsheet because edge rushers usually are way down the list and you will miss out on stud players. 

My goal when creating a scoring system was to have every position (offense and defense) score similar by tier.  So top QB scores in the same range as top RB, WR, TE, DL, LB, DB.  That way you can build in a multitude of ways.  However, it is extremely hard to do so.  Sometimes you end up with odd seasons when you get some outlier that just blows up the scoring sheet.  The key is to not overreact.  You need to look at rolling 3-yr or 5-yr sections to make sure you aren't missing something.  Its hard to do but worth it if you can get it right. 

 
I actually like full point ppr for some of the reasons others are against it.  It elevates the 3rd down back to expand the pool of rbs that actually have value.  But whether it is full or half, it doesn't really matter as scores will remain remarkably close.  The fault I have with full ppr is it really does inflate the value of high volume elite WRs.  Does AB really need any help to be even more awesome?
Isn’t the difference between no ppr and .5 ppr the same as difference between.5 ppr an full ppr?

 
Standard all the way. PPR was invented as a way to give WRs a chance in a RB dominated game in the 90s. With the evolution of passing in today's game it's not needed anymore, as the team with solid WRs across the board can dominate just as easy as the team with two stud RBs, not to mention less variance. So why have it? I'm not saying it was never needed, but the need for it doesn't exist anymore. I left a longtime league I started playing in due to the fact they went PPR; PPR IS TEH DEVIL!!!

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I prefer standard scoring over ppr, but Im in a .25 ppr and I feel that the scores are much more balanced than full or even .5 ppr.

 
Standard. The PPR  format was created to o counter the guys like Shaun Alexander, LT, Jamal Lewis, Priest Holmes, etc. who would get 300+ carries. Last year there were 6 RBs with 250 or more carries. In 2005, there were 17. In 2005, RBs were even outscoring QBs in 4 pt/passing TD leagues. The top 10 highest scoring fantasy players that year included 6 RBs. The top 20  only included 1 WR. Today, there's far more passing and backfields are mostly platooned. The few RBs who aren't in a platoon are often also catching a ton of passes to they aren't even being neutralized by PPR but just made more valuable. 

 
Another key in IDP scoring is coming up with a system that equals the offensive scoring otherwise IDP becomes an afterthought.  This includes increasing the number of IDP starters to be at least equal to the offensive starters.  If you only start one or two IDP guys it makes them like kickers so you might as well not have them.

The real difficulty with crafting the scoring for IDP's is to minimize the boom/bust nature that is common for most positions.  Edge guys and CB's in particular typically hinge on the big plays (I.e. ---  sack or interception).   I have found that by breaking down all of the stats for a sack/int have helped smooth out the boom/bust nature.  By awarding points for QB hits, Tackle for Loss, Pass Defensed, pressures, etc you allow someone to accumulate points whether or not they actually get the "counting" stat. 

For example, you can have an edge buy like Nick Bosa still get 6 pts (3 pts for each QB hit) even though he didn't record a tackle.  Without separating this out and just awarding points for sacks and tackles he gets a zero even though he did have an affect on the game by pressuring the QB and hitting him. 

I have also found that using "big play" scoring helps diversify the quality players and allows you to build your team in very different ways and still be competitive.  It also awards those that do their own research as you can't use just a run of the mill IDP cheatsheet because edge rushers usually are way down the list and you will miss out on stud players. 

My goal when creating a scoring system was to have every position (offense and defense) score similar by tier.  So top QB scores in the same range as top RB, WR, TE, DL, LB, DB.  That way you can build in a multitude of ways.  However, it is extremely hard to do so.  Sometimes you end up with odd seasons when you get some outlier that just blows up the scoring sheet.  The key is to not overreact.  You need to look at rolling 3-yr or 5-yr sections to make sure you aren't missing something.  Its hard to do but worth it if you can get it right. 
I agree with your goal of trying to award points in a way that is somewhat balanced to the offensive players and that starting positions for defensive player to be the same number of starters as your league is starting on offense. So if that is 1 QB 2 RB 3 WR 1 Flex 1 TE thats 8 IDP starters. In some leagues they start more players on defense than offense and the scoring for defense is generally a bit lower than offensive starters but you have more of them.

I havent played IDP that gave points for QB hits or pressures. These are unofficial stats (part of the problem) that you might not be able to access or apply to your league scoring easily but maybe that has changed now?

I think it would be great to incorporate these scoring categories if it can be done without the commissioner having to manually input those scores each week.

 
A fair complaint but not unique to IDP.

Volume plays exist at CB and RB alike, where less talented players amass a pile of stats because of the opportunities afforded them.
While its true there are some offensive players benefiting from volume in their opportunities it is at least a fair measure of the players performance. 

While on the defensive side producing in volume is more often a sign of a poor defense and benefiting the weakest links of that poor defense disproportionately. The worse you are often the better the numbers.

That is counter intuitive and not the same as the offensive players performing well at all to me. 

 
I agree with your goal of trying to award points in a way that is somewhat balanced to the offensive players and that starting positions for defensive player to be the same number of starters as your league is starting on offense. So if that is 1 QB 2 RB 3 WR 1 Flex 1 TE thats 8 IDP starters. In some leagues they start more players on defense than offense and the scoring for defense is generally a bit lower than offensive starters but you have more of them.

I havent played IDP that gave points for QB hits or pressures. These are unofficial stats (part of the problem) that you might not be able to access or apply to your league scoring easily but maybe that has changed now?

I think it would be great to incorporate these scoring categories if it can be done without the commissioner having to manually input those scores each week.
We use MFL as our league site and it automatically scores QB Hits.  We haven't incorporated pressures since we seemed to have smoothed out the IDP scoring with just the QB hit added but I am fairly certain it is a stat category that can be scored. 

 
I like 1 pt PPR but can see an argument for .5 ppr.  

The problem with Standard is that it overvalues the guy who happens to get the TD, whether that is a lumbering FB type, short yardage RB, or TE who catches one or two passes a game and one of them is a TD.

My 1 pt ppr league has the following top 12 players in scoring, eliminating QBs who aren't involved in this discussion.

#1 CMac

#2 Michael Thomas

#3 Dalvin Cook

#4 Austin Ekeler

#5 Zeke

#6 Chris Godwin

#7 Aaron Jones

#8 DeAndre Hopkins

#9 Leonard Fournett

#10 Derrick Henry

#11 Julio Jones

#12 Chubbs

8 of the top 12 were RBs and none of them are third down only backs. This pretty much explodes the idea that PPR leagues are only about WRs and scat backs.

But what I like is that it offers an owner some diversity of strategic options for how to build their team and it means that people who draft later are not as unfairly limited. There is a BIG difference between the 12th RB and the #1 or #2 back most years in standard scoring. But in PPR the difference between the top RB and the top WRs is flattened so it is less about the luck of drafting early and more about being able to identify quality in the mid and later rounds of a draft.

 
We use MFL as our league site and it automatically scores QB Hits.  We haven't incorporated pressures since we seemed to have smoothed out the IDP scoring with just the QB hit added but I am fairly certain it is a stat category that can be scored. 
That makes me a bit excited to join a league that incorporates these stats.

Thats new to me. 😃

 
Rather than going PPR we ended up giving bonuses at yardage plateau's for various positions.  We give a 4 pt bonus to RB's that get 50 yds rushing and/or 50 yds receving.  TE's get a 5 pt bonus at 20 yds.  WR's get a 3 pt bonus at 100 yds.  These helped normalize scoring across positions to help each position's tier be similar to other positions of that same tier. 

It's far from perfect but it helps. 

 
Just spitballing here.

What if IDP players were rewarded/penalized for yardage given up into their coverage?

For example the score would be 0 if the player gives up 60 yards offense, then some small changes from this point of origin by .5 points per 10 yard difference. For example if the player gives up 0 yards in coverage that would be 3 points. If the player gives up 100 yards then that would be -2 points.

I am not sure if something like this could be easily incorperated by MFL or other fantasy league services, but if it is, this might be a way to mitigate the issue I was talking about of poor corners getting a lot of tackles because they are bad at their job.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top