Star Wars The Last Jedi Episode 8 thread: this thread sucks, you should avoid it even after you've seen the movie (1 Viewer)

[Hang 10]

It WAS said!! a shame we don’t understand droid.  That sneaky Rian Johnson.

 

I like him and the movie even less now. 

 

 

[Andrew74]

I took my 13 yo daughter and she loved it. She’s still talking about it today. It is fun to see your kid relish in SW like I did at her age. 

But I was pretty meh about the movie. I avoided everything and went in blind but maybe I expected too much. 

The good

Luke was good.  Rey was as well. Some of the scenes were excellent - the opening space battle, Kylo/Luke fight, and Yoda. The “help me Obi Wan Kenobi” scene was an emotional piece 

The bad

Leia - WTH. When did everyone turn into a super badass Master Jedi?  Survive space and fly back to the ship. Oh come on. 

Snoke - so we are 30 years post-Empire. Where did this guy come from?  He showed super Sith powers. Where did he get them?  There are only two Sith and they both died in ROTJ. I have a hard time believing this guy just shows up basically as a Sith Lord. Then he gets  punked.  “I can read every thought of his mind.”  Yeah except that he’s going to kill you. 

So two strong force users can’t beat a bunch of guards?  Was Yoda that insanely powerful that he waves his hand and toasts two guards?  The fight didn’t click. 

I tried to ignore the fact that TFA was ANH retold. But here we are with the same damn story. Young force user seeks old master on deserted planet. He doesn’t want to train her. He relents. She wants to leave as she knows there is conflict in the bad guy.  Don’t do it!  Turns herself in, even has the same elevator scene. “There’s good in you!”  Meets the Emperor, oops, Snoke. Won’t turn!!  Bad guy turns on his master.

I honestly don’t care about any of these characters, expect Rey. She’s the only one. Well I still love Chewie. Kylo is a bore and the general is a dweeb.  Vader and Tarkin they are not.  I enjoyed the Clone Wars more than this. 

Maybe I’ll feel better after a second viewing. 

 

[Insein]

It WAS said!! a shame we don’t understand droid.  That sneaky Rian Johnson.

 

I like him and the movie even less now. 

It's like he's trying make a Star Wars for hipsters. 

 

[Autumn Wind]

https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/a-list-of-some-of-the-times-the-last-jedi-told-the-olde-1821396631

Beware saucy language.

 

[jon_mx]

Seeing it wed. Do I need to see it in 3d?

3d added very little   Made a few astroids and explosions scenes better.  But for the most part was a distraction that wasn't worth it. 

 

[Otis]

Expanded Universe

 

 

[Smack Tripper]

It’s kind of off putting to me that they likely killed off Luke Skywalker without Mark Hamil knowing. This is the franchise. They guy deserved better and his character was far more compelling than all the new rebel people they’re trying to push. 

None of this makes sense in terms of episode 7. Was it “bold” to do this?  Sure. It’s also bold to punch your mother In the mouth at thanksgiving dinner but it doesn’t make it smart. 

 

[jon_mx]

It’s kind of off putting to me that they likely killed off Luke Skywalker without Mark Hamil knowing. This is the franchise. They guy deserved better and his character was far more compelling than all the new rebel people they’re trying to push. 

None of this makes sense in terms of episode 7. Was it “bold” to do this?  Sure. It’s also bold to punch your mother In the mouth at thanksgiving dinner but it doesn’t make it smart. 

It seems like the director made a conscious effort to mock the franchise.  There were some good things about the film, but IMHO really was a really terrible idea to let a director do this to something you paid $4 billion for.  I

 

[NewlyRetired]

It seems like the director made a conscious effort to mock the franchise.  There were some good things about the film, but IMHO really was a really terrible idea to let a director do this to something you paid $4 billion for.  I

It is worth acknowledging that Disney was extremely happy with his work.  Even before the movie came out they put him in charge of the entire next trilogy.

 

[msommer]

You think I'm sitting through C-SPAN dialog, midichlorians, and pod races to see that?

 

And Jar-Jar. Let's not forget about Jar-Jar

 

[Capella]

It seems like the director made a conscious effort to mock the franchise.  There were some good things about the film, but IMHO really was a really terrible idea to let a director do this to something you paid $4 billion for.  I

Well they liked it so much he's got 3 more movies with them. 

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I won't question people's opinion in a movie. To each his own.

But what's the basis of saying this movie mocked or crapped on the original trilogy?  I really have no idea how that is.

 

[jon_mx]

I won't question people's opinion in a movie. To each his own.

But what's the basis of saying this movie mocked or crapped on the original trilogy?  I really have no idea how that is.

There is a continuing theme of 'forget the past' which is what the movie does.  It ignores the whole bloodline/family angle and makes it so any random can be strong in the force.  Maybe a good angle for the PC-inclusive agenda, but not what Star Wars was.  It blurs the lines between good and evil, which was always crystal clear in previous episodes, and goes off on a wild tangent which ends up trying to blame the arms dealers as the real evil in the universe.   It breaks Skywalker light saber in half (which at one point Luke strangely referred to it as a light sword).   All the need to be trained in the use of the force has been thrown out the window.  Rey became a master basically after a 1 minute lesson from Luke teaching her how to reach out.  I am not a star wars geek, and there probably are a lot more things which this movie mocked. 

 

[Tom Servo]

Funny read 

https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/a-list-of-some-of-the-times-the-last-jedi-told-the-olde-1821396631?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

The Broom Child, just some random-### kid doing the Force to a broomstick and imagining it’s a lightsaber, which somehow works simultaneously as a giant finger in the eye to the series’s heretofore relentlessly inward-turning mythology and baits fan-nerds to own themselves by missing the point and speculating about who this kid’s secret parents might be.

 

 

[Insein]

I won't question people's opinion in a movie. To each his own.

But what's the basis of saying this movie mocked or crapped on the original trilogy?  I really have no idea how that is.

I don't think it crapped on the original. It seemed to mock the fans though, even the ones that were all in on TFA. 

So much was built up about Rey's origins from TFA. They dedicated a lot of screen time to it in this film also. But every almost climactic moment was met with a "gotcha" answer. Luke questioning who she was, the mirror room, Kylos dramatic pause to reveal... Nothing. It felt like a troll job to those that speculated for 2 years as to who she was. The answer was she's nobody, don't worry about it.

Just as equal a build up was Snoke. He was billed as the super big bad that made Vader and Palpatine look like boy scouts. So evil and smart he can build an entire first order and another death star without anyone even noticing. He can seduce Luke Skywalker's nephew to the dark side and cause all sorts of evil for the Galaxy. Where did he come from? Who trained him?  What are his plans?

Turns out he's just some rich force user that had money and time to kill. He seems powerful enough but most of the stuff he did was parlor tricks compared to Vader and Palpatine. He never really turned Kylo so much as he offered him a summer job working for the first order. Then he gets punked by Kylo pretty easily for supposedly being able to read minds. So no need to know who he is or what he does because he's no more important than Phasma in the grand scheme. Just a glorified extra.

I think where some fans might think they spit on the original though is how Luke acts. Or rather how he tried to kill Ben.  Instead of you know rationally talk to him and his parents about his growing dark side problem. No no leaping to wanting to kill your nephew in his sleep because of something you may or may not have felt is totally in a normal thing and what Luke Skywalker, champion of all that is good and sees the good in all people, would do.

Just some of the things. 

 

[Thunderlips]

There is a continuing theme of 'forget the past' which is what the movie does.  It ignores the whole bloodline/family angle and makes it so any random can be strong in the force.  Maybe a good angle for the PC-inclusive agenda, but not what Star Wars was.  It blurs the lines between good and evil, which was always crystal clear in previous episodes, and goes off on a wild tangent which ends up trying to blame the arms dealers as the real evil in the universe.   It breaks Skywalker light saber in half (which at one point Luke strangely referred to it as a light sword).   All the need to be trained in the use of the force has been thrown out the window.  Rey became a master basically after a 1 minute lesson from Luke teaching her how to reach out.  I am not a star wars geek, and there probably are a lot more things which this movie mocked. 

Isn't that how the whole danged Skywalker "Force bloodline" started?

 

[Thunderlips]

There is a continuing theme of 'forget the past' which is what the movie does.  It ignores the whole bloodline/family angle and makes it so any random can be strong in the force.  Maybe a good angle for the PC-inclusive agenda, but not what Star Wars was.  It blurs the lines between good and evil, which was always crystal clear in previous episodes, and goes off on a wild tangent which ends up trying to blame the arms dealers as the real evil in the universe.   It breaks Skywalker light saber in half (which at one point Luke strangely referred to it as a light sword).   All the need to be trained in the use of the force has been thrown out the window.  Rey became a master basically after a 1 minute lesson from Luke teaching her how to reach out.  I am not a star wars geek, and there probably are a lot more things which this movie mocked. 

Ironically....all the same nerds that are #####ing about Luke/Rey/Disney/Rain Johnson pooping on the Jedi and their mysterious ways.......pretty much agreed with Lukes point about the Jedi after the prequels.  

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Appreciate the answers. I disagree with just about everything you guys said though. 

Or to paraphrase Luke for humor.... amazing sentences... Every word in them was wrong.

Which by the way, was an awesome line.

 

[jon_mx]

Isn't that how the whole danged Skywalker "Force bloodline" started?

George Lucas's vision was much different.  His vision was all about family and their problems.  It was always about Skywalkers, but Disney had a different vision.  “People don’t actually realize it’s actually a soap opera and it’s all about family problems — it’s not about spaceships. So they decided they didn’t want to use those stories, they decided they were going to do their own thing so I decided, ‘fine. … I’ll go my way and I let them go their way,’”

 

[Todem]

It seems like the director made a conscious effort to mock the franchise.  There were some good things about the film, but IMHO really was a really terrible idea to let a director do this to something you paid $4 billion for.  I

Totally agree. 

 

[Thunderlips]

George Lucas's vision was much different.  His vision was all about family and their problems.  It was always about Skywalkers, but Disney had a different vision.  “People don’t actually realize it’s actually a soap opera and it’s all about family problems — it’s not about spaceships. So they decided they didn’t want to use those stories, they decided they were going to do their own thing so I decided, ‘fine. … I’ll go my way and I let them go their way,’”

Would Rey being a Skywalker change that for you?

I don't know why people are taking what Kylo said at face value.

 

[Todem]

Would Rey being a Skywalker change that for you?

I don't know why people are taking what Kylo said at face value.

I am not. I think there is a much bigger story about her parents. I think Kylo is full of ####.

But I also did not care for the direction in this film. Pretty simple. Some people loved it.....fine that’s great. My son is probably going to love it. And that is the point. Star Wars is for kids first and foremost.

But as a long time fan and after what I felt were excellent Star Wars films in TFA and R1 this was disappointing. It could have been a lot better simply based on how good the last two films have been. Really simple. 

I really hope Johnson can do a better job with the new saga planned. Because it is all his.

 

[Tom Servo]

And to think Doctor Who fans were relentless mocked for objecting to a woman becoming the Doctor next Monday night. Star Wars uber nerds have nothing on Whovians. <_<  

 

[Sammy3469]

3d added very little   Made a few astroids and explosions scenes better.  But for the most part was a distraction that wasn't worth it. 

I'm not much of a 3D fan in general, but the big scenes were pretty spectacular in 3D (the warp speed ramming in particular).  Granted I don't go to many movies these days, but Last Jedi 3D was better than Bladerunner in 3D.  

 

[Insein]

And to think Doctor Who fans were relentless mocked for objecting to a woman becoming the Doctor next Monday night. Star Wars uber nerds have nothing on Whovians. <_<  

How so?

 

[Smack Tripper]

It is worth acknowledging that Disney was extremely happy with his work.  Even before the movie came out they put him in charge of the entire next trilogy.

Is Disney infallible?  Solo is supposed to be a damn disaster. 

The original players are dead, lets see how the franchise does going forward.  Cracks in the foundation here. 

Too many broads in these movies these days.  This movie was a positive step in forging newer concepts but a mess in terms of a trilogy/original cannon type project.  If you want to alter the universe, you now have alternate stories that you can play around with but when you put out a chapter of a story that negates the prior 7 chapters (force being somewhat special, part of destiny, jedi being elevated or elite) and now your point is any kid sweeping up weird space horse crap can have the force might be feel good but I'm sorry that's not star wars.  Why didn't Han have the force then? 

And Rian Johnson never drew a dime in his life with a movie where it wasn't stamped with STAR WARS

 

[Yankee23Fan]

There is a continuing theme of 'forget the past' which is what the movie does.  It ignores the whole bloodline/family angle and makes it so any random can be strong in the force.  Maybe a good angle for the PC-inclusive agenda, but not what Star Wars was.  It blurs the lines between good and evil, which was always crystal clear in previous episodes, and goes off on a wild tangent which ends up trying to blame the arms dealers as the real evil in the universe.   It breaks Skywalker light saber in half (which at one point Luke strangely referred to it as a light sword).   All the need to be trained in the use of the force has been thrown out the window.  Rey became a master basically after a 1 minute lesson from Luke teaching her how to reach out.  I am not a star wars geek, and there probably are a lot more things which this movie mocked. 

I'm just going to use yours as starting point - again, my opinion herein.  Not arguing with people that didn't like it.  The reason I disagree FWIW:

The bloodline was not the entire story of the original trilogies.  It was the main focal point, sure.  But Anikan and Luke weren't the only Jedi to have ever lived. The bloodline helps and the mythology of the specific Skywalker bloodline was that it was one of extreme power with the force, but it wasn't the only one.  There were other massively powerful Jedi, Yoda being only one of many.  

The lines between good and evil were always blurred.  That is the point of Luke's anger in the Emperor's room at the end of Jedi, and the reason that the Jedi counsel, Yoda and Windu, specifically, acted the way they did in the prequels.  There is ultimate good and ultimate evil, sure, but most people deal in the middle.  The island of the very Jedi temple had a dark side.  There can't be one without the other.  The Sith embraced the dark, the Jedi the light, and while the Sith never had a good side that we were shown, the Jedi had a bad side.  Their own arrogance led to their own downfall.  Luke made that clear - it is arrogant of the Jedi (arrogance being the precursor to the dark side) to presume that they know the only true way to use the force.  And if it is truly an energy field enveloping all things, then it has pieces of all things in it - good and bad.

I didn't take the arms dealer thing as a grand muddying of the waters, but a lesson to Fin that everything is never what is always seems to be - which connects the dots that Luke was teaching Rey - don't just presume the guys that say they are good are always good.  You will be wrong, and that presumption leads to the arrogance that led to the fall of the Jedi.

The breaking of the lightsaber was awesome in every respect.  The force is more important and powerful than one family, one symbolic tool of its power.  The fight between Rey and Kylo is an equal fight that not even tradition can stand in the face of.  If you truly believe that the lightsaber of a Skywalker is that important then that is the very reason why the Jedi failed.  The symbolism too precedent over the substance.

The training wasn't necessary to use the force - it was necessary for the Jedi to train children the way the Jedi wanted to train them to ensure that they used their powers in the way the Jedi wanted them to.  The lesson of the prequels was rather clear - the counsel determined who they saw fit to learn how to harness the power, and therefore by definition there were kids they turned away.  The need to be trained was selfish by the Jedi - make sure they are on our side, instead of truly understanding the power within them.  That selfishness helped to turn Anikan, and it tore at Luke until the very penultimate moment of Jedi.  Look at the language of Palpatine in that room - he wasn't saying join me because you are done, it was join me and I will train you in the use of the dark side.  The power of the Jedi and the Sith needed to be taught - not the force itself, but how to use it for the ends of the people who would control it on both sides.

Rey isn't a master - Luke said she had raw power.  Just like Anikan when he was a kid being the only human that could control a pod racer.  Kylo can't dominate her because he is still too emotional and lacking the self control to use his entire ability.  And he isn't all the way bad because he couldn't kill Leia.

I don't think it crapped on the original. It seemed to mock the fans though, even the ones that were all in on TFA. 

So much was built up about Rey's origins from TFA. They dedicated a lot of screen time to it in this film also. But every almost climactic moment was met with a "gotcha" answer. Luke questioning who she was, the mirror room, Kylos dramatic pause to reveal... Nothing. It felt like a troll job to those that speculated for 2 years as to who she was. The answer was she's nobody, don't worry about it.

Just as equal a build up was Snoke. He was billed as the super big bad that made Vader and Palpatine look like boy scouts. So evil and smart he can build an entire first order and another death star without anyone even noticing. He can seduce Luke Skywalker's nephew to the dark side and cause all sorts of evil for the Galaxy. Where did he come from? Who trained him?  What are his plans?

Turns out he's just some rich force user that had money and time to kill. He seems powerful enough but most of the stuff he did was parlor tricks compared to Vader and Palpatine. He never really turned Kylo so much as he offered him a summer job working for the first order. Then he gets punked by Kylo pretty easily for supposedly being able to read minds. So no need to know who he is or what he does because he's no more important than Phasma in the grand scheme. Just a glorified extra.

I think where some fans might think they spit on the original though is how Luke acts. Or rather how he tried to kill Ben.  Instead of you know rationally talk to him and his parents about his growing dark side problem. No no leaping to wanting to kill your nephew in his sleep because of something you may or may not have felt is totally in a normal thing and what Luke Skywalker, champion of all that is good and sees the good in all people, would do.

Just some of the things. 

I don't see Rey's origin as an insult.  It was an answer.  The biggest complaint about TFA was that it was basically New Hope retold almost scene for scene.  Breaking with that isn't an insult.  To me.  And the screen time for it, I thought, was massively well done.  Sometimes the answers you get aren't the ones you want.  Sometimes what looks right isn't right.  Being so consumed by one thing, can lead to bad results in others.  Who her parents were doesn't matter at this moment.  It might later, but it didn't then for her.  

I'm ok with how Snoke was dealt with... in fact I thought it was well done.  His arrogance killed him.  Just like everyone's arrogance will kill them.  It killed the Jedi too.  That is the point of the lesson.  I would love more info on him, sure.  But we are hitting this movie for not knowing where the Supreme Leader came from, when we were in the same boat throughout the original trilogy.  In those 3 movies we had little to no idea who the emperor really was.  It took the prequels to flush him out - and they did a great job with that - a politician who seemingly was doing the right things for the right reasons and good people following him because of it, until he went too far or they saw the true results of his actions.  Just like the Jedi.

Phasma was built up by fans no different than Boba Fet - in fact that is who she is  Die hard fans clinging to a character that they believe is massively important that simply just might not be to the story being told now.

Luke admitted that he was about to kill him in a moment of weakness.  He admitted it was wrong.  He admitted that it started a chain of events that aren't leading to good.  He admitted that even Jedi make mistakes, something the counsel wasn't ready to admit and it caused their doom.

I really think we need to listen to Luke, and Yoda, in every word they said in this movie, because I think it actually links the entire story perfectly.  Now through this movie we see that at every single turn, when the good hold on to tradition, and the surface, and their own arrogance in knowing what they are doing is right, that they end up making things worse, or at least not solving the problem - or becoming what they despise.  Yoda burned that tree because the tradition doesn't matter.  The true lesson of the force is love and sacrifice and honor and learning from failure - and by definition that means that Jedi will fail.  The good will fail to be good at times.  And therefore, it is not perfect.  Luke was not perfect.  

Again, all my opinion.  I just don't see the argument that this destroyed the foundation that the original set up.  I think it perfectly united everything in the prequels through the originals and told us that now, in this universe now, the people left to deal with the force and the constant struggle between good and evil, need to let the past traditions die - because they didn't solve the problems, they only perpetuated them.  Stick to the substance of the force, let the past go, and learn from our mistakes.

 

[Smack Tripper]

There is a continuing theme of 'forget the past' which is what the movie does.  It ignores the whole bloodline/family angle and makes it so any random can be strong in the force.  Maybe a good angle for the PC-inclusive agenda, but not what Star Wars was.  It blurs the lines between good and evil, which was always crystal clear in previous episodes, and goes off on a wild tangent which ends up trying to blame the arms dealers as the real evil in the universe.   It breaks Skywalker light saber in half (which at one point Luke strangely referred to it as a light sword).   All the need to be trained in the use of the force has been thrown out the window.  Rey became a master basically after a 1 minute lesson from Luke teaching her how to reach out.  I am not a star wars geek, and there probably are a lot more things which this movie mocked. 

This was so over done and totally stupid... I frankly didn't like the concept of "we only have this much fuel" left as it hamstrings things for future cannon

We've never worried about fuel in the past, not once and now its the central driving plot force of 2/3 of this movie.   Its a cheap "ticking clock" filmmaking device to help you move YOUR story along which is totally cliché while you bash and lambaste the franchise itself for being cliché.  Star Wars can't be cliché, it is what it damn well is, its force and dark side and hope and light sabers.  We dont' need political BS shoehorned on that was completely unneeded as side plot.

But Disney likes Rian Johnson so all is well

 

[Sammy3469]

I'm sorry I onlt have one like to give that post @Yankee23Fan

 

[Smack Tripper]

I'm just going to use yours as starting point - again, my opinion herein.  Not arguing with people that didn't like it.  The reason I disagree FWIW:

The bloodline was not the entire story of the original trilogies.  It was the main focal point, sure.  But Anikan and Luke weren't the only Jedi to have ever lived. The bloodline helps and the mythology of the specific Skywalker bloodline was that it was one of extreme power with the force, but it wasn't the only one.  There were other massively powerful Jedi, Yoda being only one of many.  

The lines between good and evil were always blurred.  That is the point of Luke's anger in the Emperor's room at the end of Jedi, and the reason that the Jedi counsel, Yoda and Windu, specifically, acted the way they did in the prequels.  There is ultimate good and ultimate evil, sure, but most people deal in the middle.  The island of the very Jedi temple had a dark side.  There can't be one without the other.  The Sith embraced the dark, the Jedi the light, and while the Sith never had a good side that we were shown, the Jedi had a bad side.  Their own arrogance led to their own downfall.  Luke made that clear - it is arrogant of the Jedi (arrogance being the precursor to the dark side) to presume that they know the only true way to use the force.  And if it is truly an energy field enveloping all things, then it has pieces of all things in it - good and bad.

I didn't take the arms dealer thing as a grand muddying of the waters, but a lesson to Fin that everything is never what is always seems to be - which connects the dots that Luke was teaching Rey - don't just presume the guys that say they are good are always good.  You will be wrong, and that presumption leads to the arrogance that led to the fall of the Jedi.

The breaking of the lightsaber was awesome in every respect.  The force is more important and powerful than one family, one symbolic tool of its power.  The fight between Rey and Kylo is an equal fight that not even tradition can stand in the face of.  If you truly believe that the lightsaber of a Skywalker is that important then that is the very reason why the Jedi failed.  The symbolism too precedent over the substance.

The training wasn't necessary to use the force - it was necessary for the Jedi to train children the way the Jedi wanted to train them to ensure that they used their powers in the way the Jedi wanted them to.  The lesson of the prequels was rather clear - the counsel determined who they saw fit to learn how to harness the power, and therefore by definition there were kids they turned away.  The need to be trained was selfish by the Jedi - make sure they are on our side, instead of truly understanding the power within them.  That selfishness helped to turn Anikan, and it tore at Luke until the very penultimate moment of Jedi.  Look at the language of Palpatine in that room - he wasn't saying join me because you are done, it was join me and I will train you in the use of the dark side.  The power of the Jedi and the Sith needed to be taught - not the force itself, but how to use it for the ends of the people who would control it on both sides.

Rey isn't a master - Luke said she had raw power.  Just like Anikan when he was a kid being the only human that could control a pod racer.  Kylo can't dominate her because he is still too emotional and lacking the self control to use his entire ability.  And he isn't all the way bad because he couldn't kill Leia.

I don't see Rey's origin as an insult.  It was an answer.  The biggest complaint about TFA was that it was basically New Hope retold almost scene for scene.  Breaking with that isn't an insult.  To me.  And the screen time for it, I thought, was massively well done.  Sometimes the answers you get aren't the ones you want.  Sometimes what looks right isn't right.  Being so consumed by one thing, can lead to bad results in others.  Who her parents were doesn't matter at this moment.  It might later, but it didn't then for her.  

I'm ok with how Snoke was dealt with... in fact I thought it was well done.  His arrogance killed him.  Just like everyone's arrogance will kill them.  It killed the Jedi too.  That is the point of the lesson.  I would love more info on him, sure.  But we are hitting this movie for not knowing where the Supreme Leader came from, when we were in the same boat throughout the original trilogy.  In those 3 movies we had little to no idea who the emperor really was.  It took the prequels to flush him out - and they did a great job with that - a politician who seemingly was doing the right things for the right reasons and good people following him because of it, until he went too far or they saw the true results of his actions.  Just like the Jedi.

Phasma was built up by fans no different than Boba Fet - in fact that is who she is  Die hard fans clinging to a character that they believe is massively important that simply just might not be to the story being told now.

Luke admitted that he was about to kill him in a moment of weakness.  He admitted it was wrong.  He admitted that it started a chain of events that aren't leading to good.  He admitted that even Jedi make mistakes, something the counsel wasn't ready to admit and it caused their doom.

I really think we need to listen to Luke, and Yoda, in every word they said in this movie, because I think it actually links the entire story perfectly.  Now through this movie we see that at every single turn, when the good hold on to tradition, and the surface, and their own arrogance in knowing what they are doing is right, that they end up making things worse, or at least not solving the problem - or becoming what they despise.  Yoda burned that tree because the tradition doesn't matter.  The true lesson of the force is love and sacrifice and honor and learning from failure - and by definition that means that Jedi will fail.  The good will fail to be good at times.  And therefore, it is not perfect.  Luke was not perfect.  

Again, all my opinion.  I just don't see the argument that this destroyed the foundation that the original set up.  I think it perfectly united everything in the prequels through the originals and told us that now, in this universe now, the people left to deal with the force and the constant struggle between good and evil, need to let the past traditions die - because they didn't solve the problems, they only perpetuated them.  Stick to the substance of the force, let the past go, and learn from our mistakes.

I don't see the Jedi as being remotely arrogant.  What are you basing this on?

I can see an argument of them being naïve believing too thoroughly in good (not seeing Anakin could turn, although they did) or being too detached (positioned as impartial outsiders who only seek to achieve balance in Episode 1 and 2) rather than being proactive. 

 

[Capella]

I'm sorry I onlt have one like to give that post @Yankee23Fan

I got you 

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I don't see the Jedi as being remotely arrogant.  What are you basing this on?

I can see an argument of them being naïve believing too thoroughly in good (not seeing Anakin could turn, although they did) or being too detached (positioned as impartial outsiders who only seek to achieve balance in Episode 1 and 2) rather than being proactive. 

They became a above the law entity in the prequels.  Windu took actions that weren't legal "for the greater good" in his eyes.  They only choose to train whom they wanted to train.  They categorized the dark side as ultimate evil instead of trying to understand it and understand that they weren't purely good.  And even if you don't take any of that (again, my opinion - I like talking about it, don't want to work, and others opinions of movies don't effect me - except Andy D with Castaway) you used the word naïve.  I'll use that - being naïve meant that they didn't have the total control of the force they claimed they had in the Jedi counsel.  That by definition means that they were lying - to themselves or to others.  

That lie lead to actions.  Those actions led to more actions.  And all of them led to the rise of the Sith and the destruction of the republic which is still going on all these years later.  Because they were too naïve to see that they were naïve and therefore not the ultimate good in the universe.

 

[jon_mx]

That is one of the best write-ups I have seen tying everything together. 

 

[AcerFC]

I'm just going to use yours as starting point - again, my opinion herein.  Not arguing with people that didn't like it.  The reason I disagree FWIW:

The bloodline was not the entire story of the original trilogies.  It was the main focal point, sure.  But Anikan and Luke weren't the only Jedi to have ever lived. The bloodline helps and the mythology of the specific Skywalker bloodline was that it was one of extreme power with the force, but it wasn't the only one.  There were other massively powerful Jedi, Yoda being only one of many.  

The lines between good and evil were always blurred.  That is the point of Luke's anger in the Emperor's room at the end of Jedi, and the reason that the Jedi counsel, Yoda and Windu, specifically, acted the way they did in the prequels.  There is ultimate good and ultimate evil, sure, but most people deal in the middle.  The island of the very Jedi temple had a dark side.  There can't be one without the other.  The Sith embraced the dark, the Jedi the light, and while the Sith never had a good side that we were shown, the Jedi had a bad side.  Their own arrogance led to their own downfall.  Luke made that clear - it is arrogant of the Jedi (arrogance being the precursor to the dark side) to presume that they know the only true way to use the force.  And if it is truly an energy field enveloping all things, then it has pieces of all things in it - good and bad.

I didn't take the arms dealer thing as a grand muddying of the waters, but a lesson to Fin that everything is never what is always seems to be - which connects the dots that Luke was teaching Rey - don't just presume the guys that say they are good are always good.  You will be wrong, and that presumption leads to the arrogance that led to the fall of the Jedi.

The breaking of the lightsaber was awesome in every respect.  The force is more important and powerful than one family, one symbolic tool of its power.  The fight between Rey and Kylo is an equal fight that not even tradition can stand in the face of.  If you truly believe that the lightsaber of a Skywalker is that important then that is the very reason why the Jedi failed.  The symbolism too precedent over the substance.

The training wasn't necessary to use the force - it was necessary for the Jedi to train children the way the Jedi wanted to train them to ensure that they used their powers in the way the Jedi wanted them to.  The lesson of the prequels was rather clear - the counsel determined who they saw fit to learn how to harness the power, and therefore by definition there were kids they turned away.  The need to be trained was selfish by the Jedi - make sure they are on our side, instead of truly understanding the power within them.  That selfishness helped to turn Anikan, and it tore at Luke until the very penultimate moment of Jedi.  Look at the language of Palpatine in that room - he wasn't saying join me because you are done, it was join me and I will train you in the use of the dark side.  The power of the Jedi and the Sith needed to be taught - not the force itself, but how to use it for the ends of the people who would control it on both sides.

Rey isn't a master - Luke said she had raw power.  Just like Anikan when he was a kid being the only human that could control a pod racer.  Kylo can't dominate her because he is still too emotional and lacking the self control to use his entire ability.  And he isn't all the way bad because he couldn't kill Leia.

I don't see Rey's origin as an insult.  It was an answer.  The biggest complaint about TFA was that it was basically New Hope retold almost scene for scene.  Breaking with that isn't an insult.  To me.  And the screen time for it, I thought, was massively well done.  Sometimes the answers you get aren't the ones you want.  Sometimes what looks right isn't right.  Being so consumed by one thing, can lead to bad results in others.  Who her parents were doesn't matter at this moment.  It might later, but it didn't then for her.  

I'm ok with how Snoke was dealt with... in fact I thought it was well done.  His arrogance killed him.  Just like everyone's arrogance will kill them.  It killed the Jedi too.  That is the point of the lesson.  I would love more info on him, sure.  But we are hitting this movie for not knowing where the Supreme Leader came from, when we were in the same boat throughout the original trilogy.  In those 3 movies we had little to no idea who the emperor really was.  It took the prequels to flush him out - and they did a great job with that - a politician who seemingly was doing the right things for the right reasons and good people following him because of it, until he went too far or they saw the true results of his actions.  Just like the Jedi.

Phasma was built up by fans no different than Boba Fet - in fact that is who she is  Die hard fans clinging to a character that they believe is massively important that simply just might not be to the story being told now.

Luke admitted that he was about to kill him in a moment of weakness.  He admitted it was wrong.  He admitted that it started a chain of events that aren't leading to good.  He admitted that even Jedi make mistakes, something the counsel wasn't ready to admit and it caused their doom.

I really think we need to listen to Luke, and Yoda, in every word they said in this movie, because I think it actually links the entire story perfectly.  Now through this movie we see that at every single turn, when the good hold on to tradition, and the surface, and their own arrogance in knowing what they are doing is right, that they end up making things worse, or at least not solving the problem - or becoming what they despise.  Yoda burned that tree because the tradition doesn't matter.  The true lesson of the force is love and sacrifice and honor and learning from failure - and by definition that means that Jedi will fail.  The good will fail to be good at times.  And therefore, it is not perfect.  Luke was not perfect.  

Again, all my opinion.  I just don't see the argument that this destroyed the foundation that the original set up.  I think it perfectly united everything in the prequels through the originals and told us that now, in this universe now, the people left to deal with the force and the constant struggle between good and evil, need to let the past traditions die - because they didn't solve the problems, they only perpetuated them.  Stick to the substance of the force, let the past go, and learn from our mistakes.

Bravo

 

[Smack Tripper]

They became a above the law entity in the prequels.  Windu took actions that weren't legal "for the greater good" in his eyes.  They only choose to train whom they wanted to train.  They categorized the dark side as ultimate evil instead of trying to understand it and understand that they weren't purely good.  And even if you don't take any of that (again, my opinion - I like talking about it, don't want to work, and others opinions of movies don't effect me - except Andy D with Castaway) you used the word naïve.  I'll use that - being naïve meant that they didn't have the total control of the force they claimed they had in the Jedi counsel.  That by definition means that they were lying - to themselves or to others.  

That lie lead to actions.  Those actions led to more actions.  And all of them led to the rise of the Sith and the destruction of the republic which is still going on all these years later.  Because they were too naïve to see that they were naïve and therefore not the ultimate good in the universe.

Windu was a terrible character I’ll give you that.  He said things I think Samuel Jackson would say and not a Jedi and show the peril of putting a star into these movies.   But I think naïveté and deception (or lying)come from very different places conceptually.  

Refusing to train Anakin showed collective wisdom, an overriding trait we probably all would have associated with Jedi prior to this film. Qui gon and by extension obi wan, were brought down by wanting to “save” Anakin perhaps.  so by that construct they may be arrogant by closing ranks or maybe they’re naive by opening the books but they can’t be both. 

If you’re basing this arrogance concept off luke’s Words, I think I’d beware.  They frankly did a Terrible job with his character here and had him do and say very unluke things to drive their story.  Luke in the chain of this story had no character knowledge to make those judgments about episode 1-3.   He would have had those events as heresay. 

There is simply too much tell and not enough show in this film. We leave Luke wildly optimistic, he’s redeemed his father/Vader and we are left with a rashamon retelling of the singular event that has driven him to darkness. 

Luke stared down and struck down Vader and he’s afraid of a glorified padawan?   

It sounds like Luke had mental illness which is the only way to explain these nonsensical actions. And given the directors penchant for bringing 2017 into these films I’m surprised he didn’t tack that on

 I’m hating this movie the more I think about it

 

[Insein]

Still disagree on how they portrayed Luke. Yea he may have become arrogant and presumptuous. How does that thought process lead to murdering your nephew because he felt darkness in him? This is Luke, the guy that felt the good in Darth freaking Vader. He had been training Kylo up to that point to become a Jedi. He was the boys uncle and his parents trusted him implicitly with his life. So where the hell does Johnson come off saying Luke is a hotheaded potential murderer even for a second just because he felt darkness?

That's what I take umbrage with.

 

[Capella]

People who keep saying things like "Luke wouldn't have done this" or "this is Luke, who did [insert thing from 30 years earlier]" keep missing the point that it is not in fact the same Luke from episode 4-6. He's changed. He's seen and done different things. Were you the same 30 years ago?

 

[Smack Tripper]

Still disagree on how they portrayed Luke. Yea he may have become arrogant and presumptuous. How does that thought process lead to murdering your nephew because he felt darkness in him? This is Luke, the guy that felt the good in Darth freaking Vader. He had been training Kylo up to that point to become a Jedi. He was the boys uncle and his parents trusted him implicitly with his life. So where the hell does Johnson come off saying Luke is a hotheaded potential murderer even for a second just because he felt darkness?

That's what I take umbrage with.

yes, you now, you're jumping in a moving car Rian Johnson, if you insist on taking this route, show your work, way too much to much left to exposition. 

Luke (and Hamil) deserved better than being a contrarian or deconstructionalist for deconstructions sake. 

 

[Billy Bats]

We really have to remember that the story arc of episodes 1-6 was that of Anakin Skywalker bringing balance to the force. The end. The Last Jedi is what happens when you want to extend the story and make 20 more episodes. They had no choice but to “change” things and the way we view the force, Jedi, etc. going forward. Because in the original writer’s  eyes the story ended with the party on Endor. 

 

[Hang 10]

People who keep saying things like "Luke wouldn't have done this" or "this is Luke, who did [insert thing from 30 years earlier]" keep missing the point that it is not in fact the same Luke from episode 4-6. He's changed. He's seen and done different things. Were you the same 30 years ago?

I think what people are really saying is that sucks. 

 

[Hang 10]

But yeah, Luke senses a tiny bit of good in Vader and for that reason he can't bring himself to kill him but the same guy is willing to murder someone after sensing a tiny bit of bad in them? I suppose he could have changed but why? 

 

[AcerFC]

But yeah, Luke senses a tiny bit of good in Vader and for that reason he can't bring himself to kill him but the same guy is willing to murder someone after sensing a tiny bit of bad in them? I suppose he could have changed but why? 

Mara Jade obvi. Guys change when they get married. 

 

[Hang 10]

Mara Jade obvi. Guys change when they get married. 

See one of my biggest gripes with TFA was that it just reset the deck back to ANH. What happened? Why? Finding out what happened would have been a helluva lot more interesting than a soft reboot. 

 

[Insein]

People who keep saying things like "Luke wouldn't have done this" or "this is Luke, who did [insert thing from 30 years earlier]" keep missing the point that it is not in fact the same Luke from episode 4-6. He's changed. He's seen and done different things. Were you the same 30 years ago?

I'm not sure but 30 years from now I don't think I'll try to murder my nephew if I felt he was going to be a really bad person one day just randomly while I creepily watched him sleep.

 

[Smack Tripper]

People who keep saying things like "Luke wouldn't have done this" or "this is Luke, who did [insert thing from 30 years earlier]" keep missing the point that it is not in fact the same Luke from episode 4-6. He's changed. He's seen and done different things. Were you the same 30 years ago?

You can do anything you want in a story in general and film in particular but there are generally rules of the universe you create that make it more engrossing if you adhere to them.    It doesn't have to be real, these people swing light sabers and talk to creatures with #### hanging from their chins while balancing rocks. 

A pretty big tenet I've already mentioned is simply show, don't tell.  To radically alter the fulcrum of this series through some third party character dialogue and expect it to resonnate, well, maybe it does for you but it doesn't for me.  Who are these people?  Do they have the gravitas to reenforce this rather radical realizing of a character "we know"? 

Luke is such a great character because of his many flaws that we see him grow, develop and evolve through so there is a rationale to get to this point, they just simply, for me, didn't get him there.  Maybe if you bridged to this point with Han and Leia, ok, they were contemporaries, they lived with him and through it.  Once again, for better or worse, Johnson is encumbered with this past and in a sense he makes it a bit about himself to say "forget the past" as a repeated plot device.  Well the point is you can't at the same time.  None of us can or do for better or worse. 

I'm loathe, absolute loathe to be the guy that makes the movie after the fact.  But at the same time, Johnson has no ownership over this stuff so we all have a say, not that it matters, the movie is made.  But you probably could have GOTTEN to where he wanted to get with a few minor steps but the whole thing was a little lazy.

Luke basically being reduced to the Yoda/Obi Wan hermit existence is interesting.  The past repeated itself in that respect, but instead of Luke wanting to murder his family, maybe explore that, maybe Luke resented this monk like life, knowing as a Jedi he wouldn't be married, wouldn't have a family (presumably, Jedi seem to not get much action and when they do you have Anakin becoming a monster).  Maybe THAT drives the seeds of discontent, that was sacrafice, maybe he didn't want to condemn Ben Solo to that life.   Maybe I'm an ego maniac but any of this is more interesting than making the quizzical jump of luke having a fleeting moment on a "hunch" to murder his damn nephew.  Does that show Luke doesn't understand family?

I could be more in line with your thought process if this was an episode 7 concept.   None of this was in that movie, we only hear luke referrred to in glowing reverence. 

IF we established Leia had exiled Luke or had words with Luke or chose Luke over Ben Solo driving him to the darkness upon the relveation (or "seeing it") and if it became too much for Han to choose between Leia and Luke so he left, all of this makes more sense. 

We know that there was no concept of Episode 8 when Episode 7 was made and it shows and now we are left jumping through hoops to make sense of this. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Great post @Yankee23Fan - there is a lot of stuff to think about in there and I think you are right about most if not all of it.  I think overall there were a lot of good ideas in this movie that might catch on with me on another watch.   It's just to me the movie didn't hit the emotions and pace of the ones like like more and the negatives overshadowed the ideas that were presented.  

 

[jon_mx]

Drinking green milk changes people.  

 

[tommyboy]

Great post @Yankee23Fan - there is a lot of stuff to think about in there and I think you are right about most if not all of it.  I think overall there were a lot of good ideas in this movie that might catch on with me on another watch.   It's just to me the movie didn't hit the emotions and pace of the ones like like more and the negatives overshadowed the ideas that were presented.  

this movie benefits from repeated viewings, imo.   

 

[tommyboy]

Drinking green milk changes people.  

BLUE milk

 

[Insein]

BLUE milk

Yea that #### wasn't blue fresh.