Steeler fans are about to hate me, but... (1 Viewer)

[Ghost Rider]

You guys also have to factor in how Bettis has never been a threat in the passing game. His contributions as a pass receiver are mimimal, at best, and like has been pointed out in other recent player HoF threads, you have to compare players to others players at their position from the same era and Bettis comes up short compared to just about every other comparable RB from the last 15 years when talking about contributions in the passing game. Again, you have to look at more than just numbers. Vinny Testaverde ranks in the top 10 all-time in passing yards and touchdown passes! So, given your arguments, he is just as much of a HoFer as Bettis is, right? As for his career yardage mark, let's say Bettis retires after this season. Then let's say Corey Dillon cranks out three more 1000 yard seasons, but only finishes in the 12-15 range as far as NFL RB's go. Do you realize he would finish right around where Bettis is in career yardage? Would you then put Dillon down as a no-brainer HoFer? The point is that stats and numbers are higher now than they used to be, so I think you have to look at more criteria than just saying Bettis is in the top 5 in career rushing yards. His below average YPC (which you can spin however you want, but he had no more short yardage carries than Emmitt Smith did and Smith's career YPC is higher), him never being a top 3-4 NFL RB (except for MAYBE one season), his ineffectiveness in the passing game, him compiling numbers as a part-time player. etc. When you add it all up, I simply do not think he is a HoFer.

 

[Ghost Rider]

OK, I just looked it up and in 13 NFL seasons, Bettis has only finished in the TOP 10 in rushing 4 times! 4! That is all! That just adds more weight to the argument that Bettis has compiled numbers over a long career by being no more than very good AT BEST.By comparison:-Corey Dillon has finished in the top 10 in rushing 6 times. -Curtis Martin has finished in the top 10 in rushing 7 times. -Eddie George has finished in the top 10 in rushing 5 times.-Barring a dropoff, this season: Clinton Portis will finish in the top 10 for the 4th time. Shaun Alexander will finish in the top 10 for the 4th time. L. Tomlinson will finish in the top 10 for the 5th time. Edgerrin James will finish in the top 10 for the 4th time. So, you see, when compared to his peers (and I left out no-brainers like Smith, Sanders, Faulk and Thomas), Bettis simply does not stack up.

 

[Bri]

OK, then let me ask you this. In the last 20 years or so, what RBs are more HOF worthy than Bettis? I'll give you Curtis Martin, Emmitt Smith, Barry Sanders as three gimmes. Who else? Don't throw out LT2 or Alexander, as we have no idea yet how their careers will end. I'm talking career achievements here.

Marshall FaulkMarcus Allen(within 20 but you probably meant less than 20)

I'm an Eddie George fan. I wish he was but I don't believe he is hall worthy and yet I think these two are quite close.

Bettis was winding down 800, 600, then suddenly did well last year and now looks to be continuing that winding down. First ten years or so are pretty similar stat wise:

http://www.profootballreference.com/players/GeorEd00.htm

http://www.profootballreference.com/players/BettJe00.htm

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

All I know is... Urlacher = by Bettis yesterday. Ward half the team with his first TD.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

OK, I just looked it up and in 13 NFL seasons, Bettis has only finished in the TOP 10 in rushing 4 times! 4! That is all! That just adds more weight to the argument that Bettis has compiled numbers over a long career by being no more than very good AT BEST.

By comparison:

-Corey Dillon has finished in the top 10 in rushing 6 times.

-Curtis Martin has finished in the top 10 in rushing 7 times.

-Eddie George has finished in the top 10 in rushing 5 times.

-Barring a dropoff, this season:

Clinton Portis will finish in the top 10 for the 4th time.

Shaun Alexander will finish in the top 10 for the 4th time.

L. Tomlinson will finish in the top 10 for the 5th time.

Edgerrin James will finish in the top 10 for the 4th time.

So, you see, when compared to his peers (and I left out no-brainers like Smith, Sanders, Faulk and Thomas), Bettis simply does not stack up.

You're wrong. He has finished in the top 10 5 times (1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 2000) - in 2001, he got hurt and missed 5 full games and part of another, and still finished with 1,072 yards in less than 11 games. He would have easily been top 10 that year had he not been hurt (most likely top 2 or 3). In 1995, the Rams gave him only 197 carries. He only had 8 seasons in which he had a realistic shot at the top 10 (had enough carries or was the full-time feature back) and he got there 5 times, and finished 11th in another season.So, Thurman Thomas, who had 9 years as a full-time starter, but only broke 1,100 yards 5 times in 9 years, and only broke 1,400 twice is a no-brainer though? Because he caught a lot of passes? That's what the Bills offense called for. Even with that, he only has about 1,500 more yards from scrimmage for his career than Bettis, has less TDs, less rushing yards, less Pro Bowl appearances, less 100-yard games, the same # of 1,000 yard seasons and the same number of Super Bowl rings. I am not saying Thomas doesn't belong, but how he is a no-brainer and Bettis is unworthy doesn't add up to me. It's not Jerome's fault the Steelers don't throw to their backs - his first 2 seasons in St. Louis, he caught 57 passes for 537 yards - had that continued, he'd be well ahead of thomas in all-purpose yards. The Steelers use him differently than many backs are used, and that has to be considered. You have to compare him to guys who played the same style he did. You still haven't answered whether or not you feel guys like Riggins or Earl Campbell belong in the Hall. These are the type of guys you need to compare Bettis to, not Marshall Faulk.

 

[Ghost Rider]

You cannot compare a back from this era to one in the 80's. Different era = different numbers = different standard. Okay, he finished in the top 10 five times, not four. That is still not a lot, especially when compared to his peers. As for 2001, too bad. Injuries happen. Coulda, woulda, shoulda doesn't get you anything. I could say Terrell Davis could have been a first-ballot HoFer had he not got hurt, but guess what? He did. HoF criteria should focus on what a player has done, not what they could have done. Thurman Thomas was an all-purpose back and the Bills offense utilized him as a pass catcher because he was a great one. Don't give me this "Bettis could have done the same in a similar-type offense" crap. If Bettis is such a good pass catcher, then the Steelers would have utilized him more in that area (unless they are stupid). You should always build your offense around the talents of your players. Bettis is a subpar pass catcher, which is why his receiving numbres are weak. And I noticed you ignored my comment about Vinny Testaverded? Is he HoF worthy because he ranks so high in passing yards and TD passes, just like Bettis does in rushing yards?

 

[Evilgrin 72]

If Bettis is such a good pass catcher, then the Steelers would have utilized him more in that area (unless they are stupid).

Take a look at Duce Staley's reception numbers with Philly and then with Pittsburgh. Is the fact that the Steelers don't throw to him a product of their offensive scheme, or because he's a lousy receiver out of the backfield?As far as Testaverde goes, he's close, but not quite. He only made 2 Pro Bowls in 13 seasons as a starter, so his ratio of good seasons to average ones is not quite good enough. If he had managed to have a couple more really good seasons, I think he'd have made it, but 2 Pro Bowls in a career that long is not going to get it done. If he'd have had even 2-3 more standout years, I think he'd get in. You seem to forget that longevity, and the ability to perform at a high level for an extended period of time is often the single most important factor in determining whether or not a player gets into the HOF.

Now, tell me, do you or do you not believe that Earl Campbell and John Riggins belong in the Hall?

 

[4thAndForever]

Bettis is the Rafael Palmeiro of the NFL. Really good for a long time, but in the end, a very forgettable player.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Take a look at Duce Staley's reception numbers with Philly and then with Pittsburgh. Is the fact that the Steelers don't throw to him a product of their offensive scheme, or because he's a lousy receiver out of the backfield?

Staley's receiving numbers in Philly being much higher probably has more to do with Andy Reid's obssession with throwing the ball 2/3 of the time. It was well-known that he would rather throw short passes to his RB's than having them plow forward for a 2 or 3-yard gain.

As far as Testaverde goes, he's close, but not quite. He only made 2 Pro Bowls in 13 seasons as a starter, so his ratio of good seasons to average ones is not quite good enough. If he had managed to have a couple more really good seasons, I think he'd have made it, but 2 Pro Bowls in a career that long is not going to get it done. If he'd have had even 2-3 more standout years, I think he'd get in. You seem to forget that longevity, and the ability to perform at a high level for an extended period of time is often the single most important factor in determining whether or not a player gets into the HOF.

How many times do I have to tell you: PRO BOWL BERTHS ARE SUBJECTIVE AND MEAN NOTHING IN THIS DISCUSSION. Especially when you consider that three of Bettis' six Pro Bowl berths were two seasons in which he barely broke the 1000 yard mark (and averaged 3.2 YPC in one of them) and another season (2004) in which he ran for less than 1000 yards.

Now, tell me, do you or do you not believe that Earl Campbell and John Riggins belong in the Hall?

If you are trying to compare them to Bettis... You cannot compare a back from this era to one in the 80's. Different era = different numbers = different standard. Riggins probably only got in because of the team he played on (and the East Coast bias). To be fair, though, Riggins was a monster in the postseason.

Campbell belongs in the Hall. Three consecutive seasons of leading the league in rushing. He didn't have a long career, but he was dominant when healthy and playing and definitely one of the top two or three RB's of his generation. Bettis cannot say that.

Think of it this way. Since the early 90's, the RB's I would say are definitely better than Bettis are Sanders, E. Smith and Faulk. Curtis Martin and Thurman Thomas (who led the NFL four seasons in a row in yards from scrimmage) are arguably better, too. And by the time Bettis is eligible for the HoF, it is likely that guys like Edgerrin James, Alexander, Dillon and Tomlinson will have more impressive HoF resumes.

 

[ren hoek]

Pro Bowls are somewhat of a popularity contest. You could find much better barometers of a players' HoF merits than something decided mostly by the casual fan.For instance, I just now voted for Kyle Boller, Trent Dilfer, Gus Frerotte, Aaron Brooks, Mike McMahon, and Alex Smith to make the Pro Bowl. Are we really going to use this as the difference-maker between whether or not players are deemed worthy enough for the Hall of Fame? Completely worthless for this argument, in my opinion.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

To me Bettis is a classic on the cusp kind of candidate. He was good to very good for a long time, though never great. Usually the hall is reserved for greatness alone but the very good for long careers also occassionally make it. To do so they have to be fan favorites, usually identified with only one team, must be a good community guy, must be on good terms with the press, and must have an unforgettable moment in a big game.To me Bettis is clearly a fan favorite in Pittsburgh. He fits the hard nosed image of the city and the fans. He clearly has not been a mercenary, bouncing from team to team, and for his era has shown sufficient loyalty to the Steelers that I think he is identified solely with them, which is good. He has not been linked in the public mind with scandal, is good with the press. He has everything but that defining moment. He needs an outstanding superbowl or to personally propel the Steelers to a winning superbowl by single handedly saving a championship game. I short, he needs to do something spectacular this year in the playoffs and get himself a ring.I kind of hope he does so as I am partial to the big backs.

 

[Steelers4Life]

Compare it to whoever you want. This is a Hall of Fame resume. It's a compilation of a lot of points brought up in this thread.Played for 13+ years, had 8 1,000 yard seasons. Big, bruising backs like Bettis aren't supposed to last this long. Averaged over 1,000 yards a season over his CAREER, INCLUDING time missed due to injury or splitting. How many RBs can claim that? 13,500+ career yards, and he will retire as the 5th-leading rusher in NFL history. Five times in the top 10 rushing yards (3 x in the top 3), with another year at 1,072 yards in only 11 gamesAn eight year 10,000+ yard stretch that was as impressive as anyones. Career YPC at 4.0, which is great without the 50+ yard runs that other RBs have to pad their YPC numbers. 87 rushing TDs in 13+ seasons, which is 11th in NFL history. Good TD numbers considering the offenses he played on were led by Tomczak, Stewart, and Maddox until last year. Never won a Super Bowl but since his arrival in Pittsburgh the Steelers are 95-60-1. Nobody is more responsible for that record than Bettis.6-time Pro Bowler (1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 2001, 2004)At age 32, ran for 941 yards and 13 TDs for a 15-1 football team, with 198 carries and 812 yards (4.1 per carry) and 5 TDs in weeks 9-17 last year

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Take a look at Duce Staley's reception numbers with Philly and then with Pittsburgh.  Is the fact that the Steelers don't throw to him a product of their offensive scheme, or because he's a lousy receiver out of the backfield?

Staley's receiving numbers in Philly being much higher probably has more to do with Andy Reid's obssession with throwing the ball 2/3 of the time. It was well-known that he would rather throw short passes to his RB's than having them plow forward for a 2 or 3-yard gain.

As far as Testaverde goes, he's close, but not quite.  He only made 2 Pro Bowls in 13 seasons as a starter, so his ratio of good seasons to average ones is not quite good enough.  If he had managed to have a couple more really good seasons, I think he'd have made it, but 2 Pro Bowls in a career that long is not going to get it done.  If he'd have had even 2-3 more standout years, I think he'd get in.  You seem to forget that longevity, and the ability to perform at a high level for an extended period of time is often the single most important factor in determining whether or not a player gets into the HOF.

How many times do I have to tell you: PRO BOWL BERTHS ARE SUBJECTIVE AND MEAN NOTHING IN THIS DISCUSSION. Especially when you consider that three of Bettis' six Pro Bowl berths were two seasons in which he barely broke the 1000 yard mark (and averaged 3.2 YPC in one of them) and another season (2004) in which he ran for less than 1000 yards.

Now, tell me, do you or do you not believe that Earl Campbell and John Riggins belong in the Hall?

If you are trying to compare them to Bettis... You cannot compare a back from this era to one in the 80's. Different era = different numbers = different standard. Riggins probably only got in because of the team he played on (and the East Coast bias). To be fair, though, Riggins was a monster in the postseason.

Campbell belongs in the Hall. Three consecutive seasons of leading the league in rushing. He didn't have a long career, but he was dominant when healthy and playing and definitely one of the top two or three RB's of his generation. Bettis cannot say that.

Think of it this way. Since the early 90's, the RB's I would say are definitely better than Bettis are Sanders, E. Smith and Faulk. Curtis Martin and Thurman Thomas (who led the NFL four seasons in a row in yards from scrimmage) are arguably better, too. And by the time Bettis is eligible for the HoF, it is likely that guys like Edgerrin James, Alexander, Dillon and Tomlinson will have more impressive HoF resumes.

So, the fact that Bettis didn't catch many passes in a Steeler uniform is based solely on the fact that he is a lousy receiver, but the fact that Staley caught a ton of balls in Philly is all because of the system, and doesn't reflect on his pass-catching ability? This seems like an argument that is being molded to whatever is convenient to prove a point. If Staley only caught alot of passes because of Reid's proclivity towards throwing the ball, and not because he's a good receiving back, couldn't Bettis possibly be a decent receiving back, but doesn't get receptions because of Cowher's proclivity towards running the football and not checking down to RBs out of the backfield?As far as the Pro Bowl berths go, it's all relative. You can point out a season in which Bettis ran for 1,072 yards and made the Pro Bowl (ignore the fact that he was in the top 5 in the NFC in rushing with that total) and I can point out a season in which he rushed for 1,350 yards and didn't make it. I understand Pro Bowls are subjective, but you simply don't make it into the Pro Bowl without having a good season to back it up. The poster above who voted for Alex Smith, etc.. cannot use that as a valid point of argument because although you may have cast a ridiculous ballot, millions of others will vote for the guys they feel were legitimately worthy. In any event, I am not touting Pro Bowl berths as the end all be all, merely a barometer of whether a player had a good season or not. Where Bettis has been deemed worthy in about half the seasons of his career, Testaverde only made it twice in what, 16 or 17 seasons? Clearly that illustrates the difference between someone who was strictly a "compiler", as you guys like to call it, and someone who has been a top performer for much of his career.

I think we just look at it two different ways. You basically concede that Bettis is anywhere from 5th to 7th in your estimation among RBs of the last 20 years. To me, that's a Hall of Fame career. To you, he obviously needed to have a stretch where he was the dominant force at his position. I don't necessarily feel that's the case. The way I look at it, I compare players based on the span of their careers. I think to myself - if I was draqfting a team and had my choice of player A or player B, knowing in advance how their careers would shake out, which guy would I want? When comparing Bettis to say, Earl Campbell, in this regard, I would clearly rather have Bettis. Campbell had 3 monster years, 2 very good years, and that was it. Bettis, meanwhile, had 1 or 2 monster years, 4-5 very good years, and 5-6 good years. I'll take that any day. maybe you disagree, and therein lies the crux of this difference of opinion. I'll take a guy who is a very good player for a decade and a half over a guy who is a beast for 3-4 years and then falls off the map.

 

[3C's]

Pro Bowls are somewhat of a popularity contest. You could find much better barometers of a players' HoF merits than something decided mostly by the casual fan.

For instance, I just now voted for Kyle Boller, Trent Dilfer, Gus Frerotte, Aaron Brooks, Mike McMahon, and Alex Smith to make the Pro Bowl. Are we really going to use this as the difference-maker between whether or not players are deemed worthy enough for the Hall of Fame? Completely worthless for this argument, in my opinion.

The fan vote only counts for 1/3 of the total voting for the NFL Pro Bowl.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Pro Bowls are somewhat of a popularity contest.  You could find much better barometers of a players' HoF merits than something decided mostly by the casual fan.

For instance, I just now voted for Kyle Boller, Trent Dilfer, Gus Frerotte, Aaron Brooks, Mike McMahon, and Alex Smith to make the Pro Bowl.  Are we really going to use this as the difference-maker between whether or not players are deemed worthy enough for the Hall of Fame?  Completely worthless for this argument, in my opinion.

The fan vote only counts for 1/3 of the total voting for the NFL Pro Bowl.

Another good point. I wasn't even going to get into this, because I agree that Pro Bowl berths aren't necessarily 100% indicative of who had the "best" season, but they ARE indicative of who had very good years. AS such, I think they are relevant, to an extent, when discussing one's HOF candidacy.

 

[4thAndForever]

In 9 career postseason games, Bettis has rushed for less than 500 yards. :X

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

In 9 career postseason games, Bettis has rushed for less than 500 yards. :X

So who's postseason stat line is better?143 carries for 494 yards (3.5 Avg) 6 TDs

or

180 carries for 632 yards (3.5 Avg) 2 TDs

Bettis is the first, Walter Payton is the second. Don't think it will effect either's legacy. Check out Barry Sanders postseason numbers, less than 400 yards in 6 games.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

In 9 career postseason games, Bettis has rushed for less than 500 yards. :X

Sure, if you ignore the fact that in 2001/2002 he was hurt in the postseason and got a whopping 13 carries in 3 games over that stretch.In the 6 games in which he was healthy and actually started the game, he has 472 yards and 5 TDs in 6 starts. That's including a 13/43 debacle against the Patriots in 1996 in which the Steelers had to abandon the run completely in order to play catchup. He has broken 100 yards in 3 of his other 5 playoff starts.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Compare it to whoever you want. This is a Hall of Fame resume. It's a compilation of a lot of points brought up in this thread.

Played for 13+ years, had 8 1,000 yard seasons. Big, bruising backs like Bettis aren't supposed to last this long.

1000 yard seasons are not that hard to pull off anymore. Look at how many do it ever season. And Bettis lasting longer than your average big back is irrelevant.

Averaged over 1,000 yards a season over his CAREER, INCLUDING time missed due to injury or splitting. How many RBs can claim that?

More than you think. Terrell Davis has a higher yards-per-game average than Bettis does and is much more accomplished (two Super Bowl wins, a 2000 yard season, a SB MVP award and a regular season MVP award), for example.

13,500+ career yards, and he will retire as the 5th-leading rusher in NFL history.

Yep, and by the time he is eligible for the Hall of Fame, it is very possible that he will be no higher than 9th or 10th. Vinny Testaverde is in the top 10 in passing yards and touchdown passes, so by your criteria, he is a HoFer, too, right?

Five times in the top 10 rushing yards (3 x in the top 3), with another year at 1,072 yards in only 11 games

In other words, only three times in his entire career has he been one of the top RB's in the NFL. That does not sound HoF worthy to me. Especially when compared to his peers, many of whom have finished in the top 10 more often than he has (see my earlier post where I point out all of Bettis' peers who have done it more).

An eight year 10,000+ yard stretch that was as impressive as anyones.

Bettis never ran for 10,000 yards over an 8-season span. Try again.

Career YPC at 4.0, which is great without the 50+ yard runs that other RBs have to pad their YPC numbers.

His career YPC is 3.9 Stop trying to exaggerate to make your case. And long runs show a RB's ability to make big plays, something Bettis has often lacked.

87 rushing TDs in 13+ seasons, which is 11th in NFL history. Good TD numbers considering the offenses he played on were led by Tomczak, Stewart, and Maddox until last year.

Averaging less than 7 touchdowns a season is impressive? Um, okay.

Never won a Super Bowl but since his arrival in Pittsburgh the Steelers are 95-60-1. Nobody is more responsible for that record than Bettis.

I would say the Steelers' success the last few years with Bettis being a part-time player says more about Cowher and their defense. The fact is that how good the Steelers defense is over the last ten years is more indicative of how good the Steelers have been, from season to season.

6-time Pro Bowler (1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 2001, 2004)

Completely meaningless. I already addresed this. Read the thread again.

At age 32, ran for 941 yards and 13 TDs for a 15-1 football team, with 198 carries and 812 yards (4.1 per carry) and 5 TDs in weeks 9-17 last year

Great half-seasons are not HoF worthy, especially when a career journeyman like Duce Staley did the same thing the first half of the season.

 

[Ghost Rider]

So, the fact that Bettis didn't catch many passes in a Steeler uniform is based solely on the fact that he is a lousy receiver, but the fact that Staley caught a ton of balls in Philly is all because of the system, and doesn't reflect on his pass-catching ability? This seems like an argument that is being molded to whatever is convenient to prove a point. If Staley only caught alot of passes because of Reid's proclivity towards throwing the ball, and not because he's a good receiving back, couldn't Bettis possibly be a decent receiving back, but doesn't get receptions because of Cowher's proclivity towards running the football and not checking down to RBs out of the backfield?

I will remember this the next time we discuss how great of a coach Cowher is. What you are basically saying is is that Bettis is a better pass catcher than I realize, but that Cowher fails to utliize this strength in the offense, even though the Steelers have repeatedly failed in the playoffs using the same offensive strategy every season (except for 2002). Gotcha.

As far as the Pro Bowl berths go, it's all relative. You can point out a season in which Bettis ran for 1,072 yards and made the Pro Bowl (ignore the fact that he was in the top 5 in the NFC in rushing with that total)

Was he in the top 3? If not, the argument could be made that he was not deserving of that spot in the Pro Bowl. Just like last year when he made it with under 1000 yards. Plus, guys sometimes pull out because of injury and guys who would not and should not have made then do to fill the spot. See what I mean? That is why Pro Bowl berths are meaningless. Too many subjective variables in the equation.

I think we just look at it two different ways. You basically concede that Bettis is anywhere from 5th to 7th in your estimation among RBs of the last 20 years.

I never said that. When it is all said and done (from 1990-2010), Bettis will be lucky to be one of the top 10 RB's (since James, LT2 and Alexander are all likely to end up having better overall careers).

I'll take a guy who is a very good player for a decade and a half over a guy who is a beast for 3-4 years and then falls off the map.

And that is why the Steelers never win Super Bowls anymore. Because they are content with having a bunch of very good players instead of getting a few great players to put them over the top.

 

[4thAndForever]

I don't see how Bettis could be considered a Hall of Famer when I could name at least 5-7 active RBs who are or have been better RBs than Bettis ever was.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

He had an 8-year stretch in which he ran for 9,804 yards. Would have been well over 10,000 had the Rams not nailed him to the bench for the second half of the 1995 campaign, leaving him to finish with less than 200 carries for the season.Also, again, he has finished in the top 10 in rushing 5 times, not 4. Of all the players you listed, only Dillon and Martin have done it more times. Also, just a note, your "no-brainer" Marshall Faulk has also only finished in the top 10 in rushing 5 times. Obviously, he also caught a ton of passes, but again, that's based on the type of back he was and the system he played in. Sometimes you have to look a little beyond the numbers and see what a player contributed to the team.Also, Pro Bowl berths are not meaningless just because you have proclaimed them such. I guarantee it's something HOF voters look at, so it isn't meaningless at all.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I don't see how Bettis could be considered a Hall of Famer when I could name at least 5-7 active RBs who are or have been better RBs than Bettis ever was.

Exactly. I have no problem with those who are arguing Bettis' case, but some of them are talking like it is as simple as saying "he is in the top 5" in rushing yards and that is the end of the story. It is not. You have to dig a bit and when you do, it is pretty plain to see that, like you said, he is simply not one of the top RB's of the last 15 years. There are AT LEAST five RB's who are clearly better than him in his era and at least three or four more who are likely to end up with better HoF resumes when it is all said and done.

 

[Ghost Rider]

He had an 8-year stretch in which he ran for 9,804 yards. Would have been well over 10,000 had the Rams not nailed him to the bench for the second half of the 1995 campaign, leaving him to finish with less than 200 carries for the season.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Again, we are talking about what players DID DO, not what they might have done. Geez, how many times do I have to say it?

Also, again, he has finished in the top 10 in rushing 5 times, not 4. Of all the players you listed, only Dillon and Martin have done it more times.

Right, and James, Alexander and Tomlinson are all likely to do at least a few more times, barring injury, meaning there will be at least three more RB's from Bettis' era with a more impressive HoF resume.

Also, just a note, your "no-brainer" Marshall Faulk has also only finished in the top 10 in rushing 5 times. Obviously, he also caught a ton of passes, but again, that's based on the type of back he was and the system he played in. Sometimes you have to look a little beyond the numbers and see what a player contributed to the team.

Faulk has finished first in yards from scrimmage twice and twice two times. He also led the league in touchdowns once (setting a record at the time for most touchdowns combined in a season). When has Bettis ever led the NFL in anything (besides most rushes in a season, which is about as meaingless as throwing the most passes)?

Also, Pro Bowl berths are not meaningless just because you have proclaimed them such. I guarantee it's something HOF voters look at, so it isn't meaningless at all.

They should be meaningless. Is that better?

 

[Evilgrin 72]

So, the fact that Bettis didn't catch many passes in a Steeler uniform is based solely on the fact that he is a lousy receiver, but the fact that Staley caught a ton of balls in Philly is all because of the system, and doesn't reflect on his pass-catching ability?  This seems like an argument that is being molded to whatever is convenient to prove a point.  If Staley only caught alot of passes because of Reid's proclivity towards throwing the ball, and not because he's a good receiving back, couldn't Bettis possibly be a decent receiving back, but doesn't get receptions because of Cowher's proclivity towards running the football and not checking down to RBs out of the backfield?

I will remember this the next time we discuss how great of a coach Cowher is. What you are basically saying is is that Bettis is a better pass catcher than I realize, but that Cowher fails to utliize this strength in the offense, even though the Steelers have repeatedly failed in the playoffs using the same offensive strategy every season (except for 2002). Gotcha.

As far as the Pro Bowl berths go, it's all relative.  You can point out a season in which Bettis ran for 1,072 yards and made the Pro Bowl (ignore the fact that he was in the top 5 in the NFC in rushing with that total) 

Was he in the top 3? If not, the argument could be made that he was not deserving of that spot in the Pro Bowl. Just like last year when he made it with under 1000 yards. Plus, guys sometimes pull out because of injury and guys who would not and should not have made then do to fill the spot. See what I mean? That is why Pro Bowl berths are meaningless. Too many subjective variables in the equation.

I think we just look at it two different ways.  You basically concede that Bettis is anywhere from 5th to 7th in your estimation among RBs of the last 20 years. 

I never said that. When it is all said and done (from 1990-2010), Bettis will be lucky to be one of the top 10 RB's (since James, LT2 and Alexander are all likely to end up having better overall careers).

I'll take a guy who is a very good player for a decade and a half over a guy who is a beast for 3-4 years and then falls off the map.

And that is why the Steelers never win Super Bowls anymore. Because they are content with having a bunch of very good players instead of getting a few great players to put them over the top.

In the Steelers' offensive scheme, the running backs don't catch passes. That's the way it goes. ESPECIALLY a guy like Bettis who, with his size, is an excellent blocker and can stay back to help pass-protect. Do you think it's a coincidence that Bettis caught 57 passes his first two year with the Rams, but has only averaged about a catch a game with Pittsburgh? Now, if you want to say that the reason the Steelers haven't won a Super Bowl recently is because Cowher sucks as a coach for not using the backs as receivers more, that's your take. Don't try to spin this into a different argument trying to bait me on your Cowher remarks.Pro Bowl berths also are not meaningless, because the voters will consider it. Therefore, whether you consider it meaningless or not is, well.... meaningless.

You also are getting way too far into this "this guy and this guy are LIKELY to have better careers......" You have no idea if Edge, Alexander, Tomlinson, Portis, whoever are going to play beyond NEXT WEEK. Any one of those guys could suffer a career-ending (or changing) injury on any play. Unless you can see the future, you can't say "this guy will have a better career." You don't know that. You yourself have not been able to name more than 5 RBs who, since the mid-80s, have had better careers than Bettis. To me, that's good enough.

Your last comment is the most absurd thing I have seen in a while. I won't even rip on that, I'll let it stand on its own "merit."

 

[Evilgrin 72]

They should be meaningless. Is that better?

Yes, this is better.

 

[4thAndForever]

When has Bettis ever led the NFL in anything?

A legitimate question that merits an answer from the pro-Bettis crowd.

 

[ren hoek]

It seems like the only people going to bat for Bettis in this thread are Steelers fans.

 

[ren hoek]

When has Bettis ever led the NFL in anything?

A legitimate question that merits an answer from the pro-Bettis crowd.

Yeah, I looked it up the other day, the only thing I could find was carries.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Again, we are talking about what players DID DO, not what they might have done. Geez, how many times do I have to say it?

You don't seem to have any trouble talking about what players WILL DO going forward though. This seems inconsistent to me. I was merely pointing out that while he came extremely close to running for 10,000 over 8 years (a difference of about 1.4 yards per game is all that separated it) that he was the quality of player that would have easily attained it if not for certain decisions by the coaches.

 

[Ghost Rider]

In the Steelers' offensive scheme, the running backs don't catch passes. That's the way it goes. ESPECIALLY a guy like Bettis who, with his size, is an excellent blocker and can stay back to help pass-protect. Do you think it's a coincidence that Bettis caught 57 passes his first two year with the Rams, but has only averaged about a catch a game with Pittsburgh? Now, if you want to say that the reason the Steelers haven't won a Super Bowl recently is because Cowher sucks as a coach for not using the backs as receivers more, that's your take. Don't try to spin this into a different argument trying to bait me on your Cowher remarks.

Okay, answer this question...If Bettis is a good pass catcher, why have the Steelers not used him more as one over the years? And don't give me this "it doesn't fit with their scheme" garbage. If one of your best offensive talents has a skill, you use it. If not, you are dumb.

You also are getting way too far into this "this guy and this guy are LIKELY to have better careers......" You have no idea if Edge, Alexander, Tomlinson, Portis, whoever are going to play beyond NEXT WEEK. Any one of those guys could suffer a career-ending (or changing) injury on any play. Unless you can see the future, you can't say "this guy will have a better career."

That is true, but we have to wait and see what they do before plainly saying that Bettis is a top 5 RB of his era.

You yourself have not been able to name more than 5 RBs who, since the mid-80s, have had better careers than Bettis. To me, that's good enough.

I haven't?!?! Barry Sanders.

Emmitt Smith.

Marshall Faulk.

Curtis Martin.

Thurman Thomas.

Any more questions?

 

[Evilgrin 72]

When has Bettis ever led the NFL in anything?

A legitimate question that merits an answer from the pro-Bettis crowd.

Yeah, I looked it up the other day, the only thing I could find was carries.

How many times did Joe Montana ever lead the league in anything ?I looked it up and all I could find was pass attempts.

I guess that scrub doesn't belong either.

 

[Ghost Rider]

When has Bettis ever led the NFL in anything?

A legitimate question that merits an answer from the pro-Bettis crowd.

They will spin it somehow and end it with, "Yeah, but Bettis is in top five all-time in rushing."

It seems like the only people going to bat for Bettis in this thread are Steelers fans.

Very true. This should have been a poll. Perhaps it is time for one.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

In the Steelers' offensive scheme, the running backs don't catch passes.  That's the way it goes.  ESPECIALLY a guy like Bettis who, with his size, is an excellent blocker and can stay back to help pass-protect.  Do you think it's a coincidence that Bettis caught 57 passes his first two year with the Rams, but has only averaged about a catch a game with Pittsburgh?  Now, if you want to say that the reason the Steelers haven't won a Super Bowl recently is because Cowher sucks as a coach for not using the backs as receivers more, that's your take.  Don't try to spin this into a different argument trying to bait me on your Cowher remarks.

Okay, answer this question...If Bettis is a good pass catcher, why have the Steelers not used him more as one over the years? And don't give me this "it doesn't fit with their scheme" garbage. If one of your best offensive talents has a skill, you use it. If not, you are dumb.

You also are getting way too far into this "this guy and this guy are LIKELY to have better careers......"  You have no idea if Edge, Alexander, Tomlinson, Portis, whoever are going to play beyond NEXT WEEK.  Any one of those guys could suffer a career-ending (or changing) injury on any play.  Unless you can see the future, you can't say "this guy will have a better career." 

That is true, but we have to wait and see what they do before plainly saying that Bettis is a top 5 RB of his era.

  You yourself have not been able to name more than 5 RBs who, since the mid-80s, have had better careers than Bettis.  To me, that's good enough.

I haven't?!?! Barry Sanders.

Emmitt Smith.

Marshall Faulk.

Curtis Martin.

Thurman Thomas.

Any more questions?

You can call it garbage, but it has everything to do with the scheme. Why else did Duce catch 150 passes in his last three seasons with the Eagles and has caught 12 in the last year and a half with Pittsburgh? Because the eagles have a lot of plays drawn up using the back as a receiver, while the Steelers leave their backs in as blockers on almost every passing play unless it's a screen. If you think that's stupid, take it up with Cowher, but that's the way it is.You also STILL haven't named more than 5. You just named exactly 5 again.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

You can draw up all the polls you want, but all you nay-sayers won't mean squat when the bust of the Bus is bronzed and placed in Canton. It's going to happen people.Gotta go get a tooth pulled - it's got to be less painful than this thread.

 

[4thAndForever]

When has Bettis ever led the NFL in anything?

A legitimate question that merits an answer from the pro-Bettis crowd.

Yeah, I looked it up the other day, the only thing I could find was carries.

How many times did Joe Montana ever lead the league in anything ?I looked it up and all I could find was pass attempts.

I guess that scrub doesn't belong either.

That's funny, I found that he also led in passing TDs, yards per attempt, and passer rating.

 

[Ghost Rider]

You can call it garbage, but it has everything to do with the scheme. Why else did Duce catch 150 passes in his last three seasons with the Eagles and has caught 12 in the last year and a half with Pittsburgh? Because the eagles have a lot of plays drawn up using the back as a receiver, while the Steelers leave their backs in as blockers on almost every passing play unless it's a screen. If you think that's stupid, take it up with Cowher, but that's the way it is.

It is stupid. Don't you think a smart offensive coach would utilize the talents of all of his players to the max? A great coach gets the most out of a player. Based on what you are saying, Cowher has not gotten the most out of Bettis.

You also STILL haven't named more than 5. You just named exactly 5 again.

The five I named are all clear-cut, IMO, and that is enough. Do you think more than five players from EACH position should make the Hall of Fame from every era? Geez, if you were in charge, the Hall would be inducting dozens of players every year. The Hall should be for the absolute best players from each era. Bettis is not one of those players.

 

[Pittsburgh P]

You can draw up all the polls you want, but all you nay-sayers won't mean squat when the bust of the Bus is bronzed and placed in Canton. It's going to happen people.

Gotta go get a tooth pulled - it's got to be less painful than this thread.

I may be a homer, but this is a To the haters, may I say, on behalf of Da Bus:

 

[Ghost Rider]

You can draw up all the polls you want, but all you nay-sayers won't mean squat when the bust of the Bus is bronzed and placed in Canton. It's going to happen people.

It is possible that the East Coast bias and the friendly relationship Bettis has with the media might get him in, but if he does make it, he won't be the first undeserving player to make it and certainly won't be the last.

When has Bettis ever led the NFL in anything?

A legitimate question that merits an answer from the pro-Bettis crowd.

Yeah, I looked it up the other day, the only thing I could find was carries.

How many times did Joe Montana ever lead the league in anything ?I looked it up and all I could find was pass attempts.

I guess that scrub doesn't belong either.

That's funny, I found that he also led in passing TDs, yards per attempt, and passer rating.

Heh...Wow, Evilgrin 72, you just got owned. Badly. Again.

 

[4thAndForever]

To the haters

Please stop. No one "hates" Bettis. He's one of the classiest athletes of my lifetime, and I have nothing but respect for him. As much as I can't stand many of the Steelers, Bettis has always handled himself with class and dignity (which, by the way, will only help his HoF chances). I don't "hate," or even dislike, Bettis; I just don't consider him a Hall of Famer.

 

[Ghost Rider]

To the haters

Please stop. No one "hates" Bettis. He's one of the classiest athletes of my lifetime, and I have nothing but respect for him. As much as I can't stand many of the Steelers, Bettis has always handled himself with class and dignity (which, by the way, will only help his HoF chances). I don't "hate," or even dislike, Bettis; I just don't consider him a Hall of Famer.

My sentiments exactly.

 

[BlueOnion]

But Bettis never shouted GREATNESS to me when I watched him roll (literally) over defenders for his yards. I suppose the best thing I could say about him is that he's a poor man's Earl Campbell. And I'm talking a street bum's Earl Campbell. I'm uncomfortable even mentioning him in the same sentence as the Tyler Rose.

Now I know what you're going to tell me. Bettis has 13,000+ career yards, and he will retire as the 5th-leading rusher in NFL history. Blah, blah, blah. I understand that.

Just jumping into the middle of traffic here on page 4. But if we are going to compare Jerome Bettis to other similar runners (bruisers), then I don't think it is fair to compare his statistics to those of slashers.From a bruiser-back stand-point, he is #1 in rushing yards. There is something to be said for being a bruiser and having longevity. Sure Earl Campbell was far superiority, but for a lesser window of time.

 

[joker]

Don't want to waste my time sifting through the other posts, as I read a couple and just shook my head. Bettis is a HOF'er for sure, and anyone that thinks otherwise doesn't understand Pro Football and the talent and ability it takes to average over 1000 yards per season for a CAREER. And this is coming from a decidedly non-Steeler guy. The anti-Bettis guys keep harping about him just being solid over his career (not outstanding), and completely discount the fact that he's lasted as long as he has. Quick, name me more than one other bruiser who's had as much success and lasted as long as Bettis has. I have looked nothing up, but I'm hard-pressed to come up with ANYONE other than Riggins, who I think played around 14 seasons. Add to that the fact that the average RB career only lasts something like 2 1/2 years, and I'm shocked you guys are even arguing about it. You cannot discount the fact that he's a bruiser, either, which makes his achievements all the more remarkable since he was expected to run over people every game. The game is much harder on a bruiser than a scat-back, and Bettis welcomed the contact.Have these discussions on people like the Padre, TD, etc., guys that did it for a brief few years but were lights-out during those years. Don't have them on people like Bettis and CuMart who have proven it over their whole career. And don't bring Testaverde into the mix - Backup QB's are the lefty relief pitcher of football: as long as you've got a heartbeat and remotely decent stuff, you can pitch until you're in Depends. IMHO, if the Jets hadn't had injury problems at QB the last few years and the Cowboys hadn't had QB problems of their own in 2004, Vinny would be chilling out on a beach somewhere, counting his money. Just my opinion

 

[Csonka4life]

He's inferior to Riggins, but he should be enshrined. If he had carried his team on his back like Riggins then I would say otherwise.........

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I like my HOFers to be part of the games "Lore", not merely stat accumulators. I'd love to see Bettis have that one defining moment since he never had that defining season, but I suspect that without it he will get in on a slow year. His stats are pretty impressive accumulations.Come on big man, do something outstanding, heroic, or truely memorable this playoff season and put this argument to rest. Go 135 on 30 carries against Indy in the playoffs to control the clock and knock them out. Limp off the field in the superbowl bloody and bowed only to come back in for one crucial carry. Give me that Willis Reed moment, that Elway helicopter, that immaculate reception. Make yourself part of football's overall story.You can't tell the story of football in the 60's without Starr, Unitas, Butkis, Nitschke, Hornung, Broadway Joe. You can't tell the story of the 70's without Doomsday, the perfect season, the steel curtain, Green, Lambert, Bradshaw, Griese and others.I still feel I can tell football's story without you. Change that Jerome.

 

[apalmer]

I never said that. When it is all said and done (from 1990-2010), Bettis will be lucky to be one of the top 10 RB's (since James, LT2 and Alexander are all likely to end up having better overall careers).

OK, let's play by your rules. You use a 20 year period, so I will too. Let's look at QB's in the period from 1970--1990. That includes the following: Bradshaw, Dawson, Elway, Fouts, Griese, Jurgenson, Kelly, Marino, Montana, Namath, Starr, Staubach, Unitas, Young. If your test is that only the top 5-7 players at a position in a 20 year period belong in the HOF, half of these guys need to be cut (even though most of them played before expansion made it even tougher to be in the top 5-7)...and these are just the guys already in the HOF. Nobody else from that era can qualify. Care to make the cuts?

 

[faulkfan]

I personally think you're mistaken in your thinking that he is a shoe in for the Hall in the first place. He has done nothing to distinguish himself as an above average player at his position IMHO.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I never said that. When it is all said and done (from 1990-2010), Bettis will be lucky to be one of the top 10 RB's (since James, LT2 and Alexander are all likely to end up having better overall careers).

OK, let's play by your rules. You use a 20 year period, so I will too. Let's look at QB's in the period from 1970--1990. That includes the following: Bradshaw, Dawson, Elway, Fouts, Griese, Jurgenson, Kelly, Marino, Montana, Namath, Starr, Staubach, Unitas, Young. If your test is that only the top 5-7 players at a position in a 20 year period belong in the HOF, half of these guys need to be cut (even though most of them played before expansion made it even tougher to be in the top 5-7)...and these are just the guys already in the HOF. Nobody else from that era can qualify. Care to make the cuts?

Get rid of Namath. He was never that great, but he had a big mouth, played in NY and the media loved him. Young and Kelly are more 90's QB's, so they would go in that decade rather than the 80's. Elway and Marino are both as much 90's as they are 80's QB's.

Bart Starr had his best years in the 60's.

Realistically, you are listing guys who played in about a 30-35 year period.

 

[ren hoek]

Don't want to waste my time sifting through the other posts, as I read a couple and just shook my head.

Yeah, what's the point in reading opinions that differ from your own?

The anti-Bettis guys keep harping about him just being solid over his career (not outstanding), and completely discount the fact that he's lasted as long as he has. Quick, name me more than one other bruiser who's had as much success and lasted as long as Bettis has. I have looked nothing up, but I'm hard-pressed to come up with ANYONE other than Riggins, who I think played around 14 seasons. Add to that the fact that the average RB career only lasts something like 2 1/2 years, and I'm shocked you guys are even arguing about it. You cannot discount the fact that he's a bruiser, either, which makes his achievements all the more remarkable since he was expected to run over people every game. The game is much harder on a bruiser than a scat-back, and Bettis welcomed the contact.

I'm not seeing the value in longevity. In my opinion, some level of longevity is a prerequisite for making it into the Hall of Fame, mainly because of sample size and fairly evaluating a player's career. Being able to last a long time is relatively worthless beyond that. You don't win Super Bowl trophies over the course of 14 years, you win them in individual seasons.

Have these discussions on people like the Padre, TD, etc., guys that did it for a brief few years but were lights-out during those years. Don't have them on people like Bettis and CuMart

Bettis isn't even in the same class as Curtis Martin.

 

[4thAndForever]

I don't see the argument about giving him a boost simply because he's a "bruiser" rather than a "slasher."

Isn't that like giving a sidearm pitcher a boost simply because he throws sidearm? It's not how a guy gets the job done; it's how well a guy gets the job done.