Kenny Powers
Footballguy
Get back to me when Peyton and Rodgers win another Super BowlPlus if we are nitpicking, Big Ben is good, but not great. Great is Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Aaron Rodgers tier.
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Steelers Broke and 4-6, Bengals Division Champs (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Touchdown There
- Start date
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
If he doesn't have any percieved weakness and if Wallace is in fact a pretty good WR then I tend to believe that their is something that we are not hearing about or else some other team would have signed him as a RFA. Also their were rumors that the Steelers were willing to bargain-down the first and third round RFA price to move him along at that time. Now an impasse.
The idea that this is just about money isn't in-line with how the Steeler's do business.
In the past when they have a veteran guy asking too much than what they feel he's worth they ship him off but the caveaot was they typically did so at one position, linebacker: Chad Brown, Joey Porter, Earl Holmes, Mike Vrabel, Kendrell Bell, etc.
The reason was because they have been able to get LBers later in the draft on the cheap and develop them in their system so they would not overpay for guys that they could easily replace.
Now its happening at WR.
Why?
Because they recently have been able to get WRs later in the draft on the cheap and that is why I have asked about the Emmanuel Sanders angle to this situation because I do think Wallace is actually a very good WR, probably better than many Steeler fans believe.
Its still a puzzling situation to me beacuse he's a good WR but in the past they've let many good LBers walk because they had plenty of guys waiting in the wings. Their past WR dealings were that they would let 'troublesome' WRs, Place/Santonio, walk so that is what I'm trying to figure out.
If this is like the past WR situations where it was due to some 'off-field' issue that we're not aware of or.
Its that they feel comfy with the guys wating in the wings, specifically I'm looking for any sort of take on Emmanuel Sanders as he has the sort of speed that Wallace has albeit with injry concern baggage.
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
Not to mention much cheaper Id have to think a year from now, which makes me rather have him longterm as well.
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
I believe under the new CBA the RFA compensation is just a 1st, not a 1st and 3rd.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Ben can't hold their jock.Get back to me when Peyton and Rodgers win another Super Bowl
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
Pretty much
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
It's really only the one doofus with an obvious axe to grind at this point, though. I think that the fact that exactly zero teams were willing to pony up the picks + a new contract for Wallace (in an offseason where Pierre effing Garçon got a huge deal!!!) tells the entire story here.Can't blame Wallace for trying to cash in. I ball bust like a MFer when it's time to renegotiate my salary and I have some leverage. But Wallace really doesn't have a leg to stand on here; he's just flat out not worth the money he wants.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Sanders is nowhere near as fast as Wallace, but he has better hands. I'm actually a big Sanders fan and I think he really just needs an opportunity and first team reps to be a big contributor in the Steelers' offense. He was coming on big in 2010 before he got hurt and Brown stepped up and surpassed him, but he reminds me more of Ward than Wallce in terms of what he brings to the offense - he's a guy that's going to make the tough 3rd down catch in traffic as opposed to a guy that's going to streak down the sideline and burn you for a 75-yard TD. I think Brown fits that role (a potential replacement for Wallace) better than Sanders does.
Gawain
Footballguy
So Ben is in the Eli tier, that actually sounds about right.Get back to me when Peyton and Rodgers win another Super Bowl
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
Who are you, Skip Bayless?! The whole Steelers have an aging defense thing is 1 of the biggest piles of horse #### Ive heard people say about the team for the last 1-2 years.
The only guys over 30 that I expect to start or get over half the snaps at their position are Polamalu, Clark, Keisel, Harrison, and Ike Taylor. Most importantly, all those guys are still playing at a Pro Bowl caliber level, and most are 31-32 years old and not 35.
Look for another Top 5 season from Pittsburgh's D
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
Yep, in the tier of most clutch QBs with Brady, ahead of Peyton and RodgersSo Ben is in the Eli tier, that actually sounds about right.Get back to me when Peyton and Rodgers win another Super Bowl
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
Why would he want to?Ben can't hold their jock.Get back to me when Peyton and Rodgers win another Super Bowl
Monsters of the Midway
Footballguy
Get back to me when Peyton and Rodgers win another Super Bowl
Dippa
Footballguy
Do those saying "Larry Fitzgerald money" realize that Fitz's contract averages $16 million per year? $10-12 million is VJax/Djax money...and I think he's at least as valuable as both of those guys. It seems that's about the going rate for a receiver with his talents, and I don't blame him for not wanting to play for millions less than guys that he's been outproducing over the last couple years.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
Save your fishing for the Peterson threads, guy. Most of us Steelers' fans are quite happy with our "run of the mill HOF franchise QB" and are willing to admit that he's not in the "maybe the best QB ever" tier with Brady.
5-ish Finkle
Footballguy
He actually ran a 4.35 at his pre-draft workouts. Now, whether he still has that speed after the foot stuff could be argued. Sanders is(or at least was) plenty fast though. Not as fast as Mike, but fast enough to make people pay attention to him over the top at least.I get what you're saying though.
This is not just a "now" thing though. They have paid exactly one free agent/free-agent-to-bo WR of theirs big money: Ward. They let Thigpen walk, they let Plax walk, they dealt off Holmes because of him being a chode before they'd have to pay him, they let Charles Johnson walk, etc. etc. And it isn't limited to just LB and WRs. They've left high profile guys go at DB and OL too(Woodson, Lake, Searcy et al).
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Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
"Larry Fitzgerald money" is a quote from Wallace himself, not something fans on a message board are making up.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Sanders ran well at his pre-draft workouts, but when I watch those two play, Wallace has appreciably better football speed, IMO. Just using the eyeball test. Rainey ran a 4.45 at the combine - I know you must have seen him play in college (and probably HS too, since he's from around our neck of the woods) and he looks like greased lightning out there.
Dippa
Footballguy
I didn't mean that you guys are making it up...I saw that one report from a paper in Sacramento or wherever, but please do show me the quote where Wallace himself said that. My overall point though was that some seem to be saying that 10-12 million is Fitz money, and its not.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Sanders is not a replacement for Wallace, he's a compliment. He had health ?'s entering the league and hasn't shed them, but if he does his role is more Hines Ward than Wallace. His value does improve with Wallace out, obviously, but I don't think he has a top 20 WR ceiling. Not yet anyway.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
If he's better than Wallace, what make you think his agent won't recognize this and bargain accordingly. If he's a top talent in the NFL, he'll negotiate as such.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
You should be able to find it using this.And the overall point of most of the Steelers' homers in this thread is that Wallace isn't worth $10 million / year to this team, much less the ridiculous jack that Fitz is actually getting. The amount the Bucs (over)paid Vincent Jackson is pretty irrelevant. Pittsburgh has alot of talented players to keep happy, and absolutely zero need for flashy overpriced FA signings to generate fan interest in the team.
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steelcityman
Footballguy
I dont care if Wallace is the #1 WR in the NFL, Steelers wont as much as email him until he shows up at camp. He's messing with the wrong organization, Steelers wont blink.
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
I didnt say he's better than Wallace, although I do think he's a more complete WR. Wallace is the better big play threat though, arguably the best in the NFL in that facet, which the NFL values much more than a Jeremy Maclin type WR who I think is pretty similar to AB.Which is the main thing I was getting at, being Id rather have Brown for 5yrs/$30M than Wallace for 5yrs/$52.535M, and I think that number is very similar to what Brown will get next year unless he really blows up this year.
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
I think this helps support the fact that Wallace is not some one-trick pony who is only a burner like many believe. He has improved from year to year with his route-running as those efficiency numbers show. When comparing Antonio Brown (who I like and is a good WR) vs. Wallace, all I'll say is defensive coordinators more likely game plan to stop Mike Wallace because of the deep speed as opposed to game-planning to stop Antonio Brown. The fact you have to have safety help a lot of times on Wallace deep opening up other things on offence for Pittsburgh is "real" value. That said, Wallace is being an idiot here, and needs to sign his tender and get to camp if he wants a long-term deal. He isn't worth Fitzgerald money in a million years and better realize that quick. The Steelers are doing nothing wrong in this situation if that is in fact what Wallace is holding out for. The rumored 5 year/$42 million deal from a couple days ago is in the right ballpark IMHO. Hopefully for all parties involved they figure this out sooner rather than later. I'm guessing they will in the next week or two, but in order for that to happen now, Wallace has to sign the tender and get to camp.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
At the same price, who'd you rather have?
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
Throwing out screen efficiency (which seems like a dumb route to categorize anyway), the common trend I see here is that 80% of those WRs have very good QBs. That, and I dont think people are breaking down doors to get Michael Jenkins on their team.Just saying.
Dippa
Footballguy
I see reports that reference the initial blog report from an unnamed "league source" and rumors, but no quotes.And you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I don't feel the recent deals for similarly talented WRs are irrelevant, and I doubt Wallace and his agent do either. VJax's deal isn't the only example...I see that price as the current market value for talented WRs. I can't say what the Steelers should do, and never disputed your opinion on that. But where do you think Wallace fits within these recent deals for WRs? Between Meachem and Garcon?Robert Meachem - 4 years, $25.9 million, $6.5 million/year Pierre Garcon - 5 years, $42.5 million, $8.5 million/yearDesean Jackson - 5 years, $51 million, $10.2 million/yearVincent Jackson - 5 years, $55 million, $11 million/yearLarry Fitzgerald - 8 years, $128 million, $16 million/yearCalvin Johnson - 8 years, $132 million, $16.5 million/year
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
If I could have both for the vet minimum I would have to think about it. Thats a really difficult and realistic question you proposed there.
Touchdown There
Footballguy
Steelers are broke. Can't afford Wallace.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Keep casting.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
Ability and value to the team wise, IMO he's in the DeSean Jackson range. That said, I still don't want to see him in a Steelers' uniform at that price.
I think that comparisons between players like Fitz / Calvin and Wallace are totally irrelevant because the players are totally dissimilar.
I think that comparisons between terribly run teams like the Bucs / Redskins and the Steelers are irrelevant also. Contracts like the one Washington gave Pierre Garçon are a huge reason why that team has pretty much sucked since Dan Snyder bought it.
If Wallace wants to make a ton of money and lose a ton of games somewhere like Washington, then IMO he's welcome to do that. If he's willing to take less, but still good, money and wants to try to win a ring, I'll welcome him as a long term piece of the team.
I think that comparisons between players like Fitz / Calvin and Wallace are totally irrelevant because the players are totally dissimilar.
I think that comparisons between terribly run teams like the Bucs / Redskins and the Steelers are irrelevant also. Contracts like the one Washington gave Pierre Garçon are a huge reason why that team has pretty much sucked since Dan Snyder bought it.
If Wallace wants to make a ton of money and lose a ton of games somewhere like Washington, then IMO he's welcome to do that. If he's willing to take less, but still good, money and wants to try to win a ring, I'll welcome him as a long term piece of the team.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Oh, I agree. And I am not saying the Steelers should overpay him to stay (which I know they won't do, cause they never do), just that he is valuable to the Steelers offense because of his ability to make big plays and draw coverage over the top.
Touchdown There
Footballguy
I am not pushing any agenda here. I know who the Steeler homers are. Take note that Mike Wallace is showing a lot of class. You are not hearing a peep out of his camp. These contract talks are private, but somehow it leaked that he was asking for "Larry Fitz money". Who could have leaked that? Who cut off the negotiations yesterday?Mike Wallace was severely underpaid last year and wanted a new contract. Did you see him holdout? No. It was a class move by a classy guy to play out his rookie contract. The Steelers faithful should be yelling to get him signed. Instead they know they are broke and can't afford him, so AB is better.Also, I do not care how the Steelers have done business in the past. That was under the old CBA. If Wallace signs his 1 year tender and then the Steelers do not give him a fair contract, he can be fined for holding out later on. Wallace does not have the money to be fined, because the Steelers have severely underpaid him. I have read time and time again that Wallace has "no choice" but to sign his tender. Incorrect. He does not have to sign it and he has the worst agent in the world if he signs before a long-term contract is in place. This is true even if the Steelers still have good intentions.
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Touchdown There
Footballguy
Take that to the bank brohans!
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
You're clearly fishing at this point, but not signing the tender eventually would literally be the dumbest thing ever for Mike Wallace. If he doesn't sign, and sits out all year, he's not a free agent next year. Waiting until midseason to sign loses him a couple million dollars, while putting him in the exact same situation in 2013 as he would be if he signs it today. Wallace has zero leverage here.I'm guessing you probably think that Jacksonville should renegotiate and make MJD the highest paid RB in football despite the two years remaining on his contract? MJD is both a better player and more valuable to his team than is Mike Wallace.
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Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
I think you are reading too much into all of this. It's a contract negotiation. Wallace is trying to get all he can get, the Steelers are trying to sign him at an affordable price. Pretty simple really.'Touchdown There said:
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I have heard this from various sources as well: Wallace was having difficulty getting open and was also having trouble maintaining focus towards the tail end of the season. Not sure how much truth there is to it but it sure seemed like it.In any case there is one thing you can be certain about: The Steelers will not negotiate until Wallace signs the tender and reports. They wouldn't do it for Franco Harris or Hines Ward and their definitely not going to make an exception for Wallace.'Evilgrin 72 said:
Eventually Wallace will sign the tender because he has no other choice, the only question is when. Once he does sign it he can either resume contract talks or play out the season and become an UFA. That's really what it boils down to.
I have to say that I don't understand why fans get caught up in contract talks though. As the song goes: "there is no good guy, there is no bad guy". It is just the negotiating process -- no need to choose sides or get emotional about it.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
'Touchdown There said:
at you lecturing the Steelers how to run their team. I think they understand the NFL a little better than we do.
Touchdown There
Footballguy
Steelers management are not on the message boards. And I should re-phrase my statement about the signing of the tender. He does have to sign it, just not until the season is nearly over and his participation is irrelevant (see post #1).'Touchdown There said:
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Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
The quote came from a reporter from the Sacramento Bee, supposedly the 49ers were told by Wallace's agent that he was looking for "Fitzgerald money" when they were determining whether or not to sign him to an offer sheet. Steelers cut off negotiations but have already said they will resume as soon as Wallace reports to camp.So, if that's what he's looking for, then we Steelers homers should be yelling to get him signed at $16,000,000/year? Or is there a limit to what we should be willing to pay a wide receiver who regressed badly the second half of last year when faced with tougher coverage? We should demand they overpay him? Come on. He can hold out if he wants, for as long as he wants, if he thinks that's his best option. I'd prefer that to giving him a contract that will jam them up in the future.I've already proven to you earlier that the Steelers are not "broke" like you keep saying. They're $7+ million under the cap right now, but keep reiterating that over and over rather than looking at actual numbers.'Touchdown There said:
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Godsbrother
Footballguy
Correct. He can wait up until week 10 to sign it. At that point he could sign the tender, play the season out, and become a UFA. Of course if he does that then he will have forfeited almost $2 million dollars (possibly more had he been able to negotiate out a long term deal with the Steelers in the meantime). He would also be taking a big risk if he would play those 6 games without a LTA and get injured. The Steelers would also still be able to retain him for the 2013 season by using the franchise tag if they really wanted to.Personally I don't see a whole lot of upside to an extended holdout by Wallace but it is his choice if he thinks it is in his best interest.Steelers management are not on the message boards. And I should re-phrase my statement about the signing of the tender. He does have to sign it, just not until the season is nearly over and his participation is irrelevant.'Touchdown There said:
Touchdown There
Footballguy
I no not think that and I would rather have Mike Wallace on my football team than MJD.'Coeur de Lion said:
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
This just in, since Jordy Nelson outperformed his ~$4M contract last year by scoring 15 TDs, he's just demanded a 5 year, $100 million deal with $50 million guaranteed. Otherwise, he will hold out.
If the Packers do not sign him to this contract, they are cheap and broke.
If the Packers do not sign him to this contract, they are cheap and broke.
Touchdown There
Footballguy
The Steelers will not be able to afford the franchise tag in 2013. They have long term cap issues.Correct. He can wait up until week 10 to sign it. At that point he could sign the tender, play the season out, and become a UFA. Of course if he does that then he will have forfeited almost $2 million dollars (possibly more had he been able to negotiate out a long term deal with the Steelers in the meantime). He would also be taking a big risk if he would play those 6 games without a LTA and get injured. The Steelers would also still be able to retain him for the 2013 season by using the franchise tag if they really wanted to.Personally I don't see a whole lot of upside to an extended holdout by Wallace but it is his choice if he thinks it is in his best interest.Steelers management are not on the message boards. And I should re-phrase my statement about the signing of the tender. He does have to sign it, just not until the season is nearly over and his participation is irrelevant.'Touchdown There said:
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Omar Khan is a genius when it comes to managing the salary cap. Don't worry your pretty little head about the Steelers.The Steelers will not be able to afford the franchise tag in 2013. They have long term cap issues.Correct. He can wait up until week 10 to sign it. At that point he could sign the tender, play the season out, and become a UFA. Of course if he does that then he will have forfeited almost $2 million dollars (possibly more had he been able to negotiate out a long term deal with the Steelers in the meantime). He would also be taking a big risk if he would play those 6 games without a LTA and get injured. The Steelers would also still be able to retain him for the 2013 season by using the franchise tag if they really wanted to.Personally I don't see a whole lot of upside to an extended holdout by Wallace but it is his choice if he thinks it is in his best interest.Steelers management are not on the message boards. And I should re-phrase my statement about the signing of the tender. He does have to sign it, just not until the season is nearly over and his participation is irrelevant.'Touchdown There said:
Touchdown There
Footballguy
As I mentioned before. Steelers homers want to hose Mike Wallace for the good of the franchise.'Coeur de Lion said:
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