Stuart Scott on religion.... (1 Viewer)

[clampino]

I do think it's funny that Christians always say that Jews are 'waiting for the messiah'. I'm sure it's because the messiah prophecy is so essential to their beliefs. I've never heard a Jew say 'We are waiting for the messiah'. While it is a prophecy in the scripture, it is not a focal point for us.

Thanks GB! Again my questions are just curiosity. Since the prophecy is in scripture, it must be relavent though right? Or else there would be no reason for it. Moses himself said another prophet would come like himself. Deut 34:10 says what the "like himself" meant. "And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses---> whom the LORD knew face to face. Jesus said things like, "I and my father are one", "if you've seen me, you've seen the father." The things he describes is a person that would know God face to face like Moses did, only more so. Then Jesus accused the Jewish leaders of the day of not recognizing the season of their Messiah that was prophesied.

My question is this: What exactly, no rephrase.....what particluars would they be looking for in a person for them to believe he has come? In other words, apparently Jesus wasn't what they were looking for, so I am just wondering what they are looking for and how will they recognize him?

TIA

 

[ScottNorwood]

I do think it's funny that Christians always say that Jews are 'waiting for the messiah'. I'm sure it's because the messiah prophecy is so essential to their beliefs. I've never heard a Jew say 'We are waiting for the messiah'. While it is a prophecy in the scripture, it is not a focal point for us.

Thanks GB! Again my questions are just curiosity. Since the prophecy is in scripture, it must be relavent though right? Or else there would be no reason for it. Moses himself said another prophet would come like himself. Deut 34:10 says what the "like himself" meant. "And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses---> whom the LORD knew face to face. Jesus said things like, "I and my father are one", "if you've seen me, you've seen the father." The things he describes is a person that would know God face to face like Moses did, only more so. Then Jesus accused the Jewish leaders of the day of not recognizing the season of their Messiah that was prophesied.

My question is this: What exactly, no rephrase.....what particluars would they be looking for in a person for them to believe he has come? In other words, apparently Jesus wasn't what they were looking for, so I am just wondering what they are looking for and how will they recognize him?

TIA

It's certainly a relevant part of the scripture, but it's not one that gets much discussion amongst Jews. As I'm sure you've noticed in your own religion, there is a ton of scripture and some elements are focused on more than others.To answer your question about the Messiah, I'm far from an expert but my understanding is that the Messiah was supposed to bring forth global peace on earth and rebuild the great temple. Jesus did neither of these things.

 

[timschochet]

I do think it's funny that Christians always say that Jews are 'waiting for the messiah'. I'm sure it's because the messiah prophecy is so essential to their beliefs. I've never heard a Jew say 'We are waiting for the messiah'. While it is a prophecy in the scripture, it is not a focal point for us.

Historically, this is not quite accurate. Jews in America don't wait for the Messiah because we have it very good in America. But during most of the history of the Diaspora, and especially during the greatest periods of suffering in Eastern Europe (beginning in 1654 with the Cossack massacres and lasting until the 20th century and the Holocaust), waiting for the Messiah to come was a very important element in Jewish worship and cultural activity. The idea was that the Messiah would unite the lost Jews of the world and lead them back to the Holy Land. This is what is meant by the Passover prayer, "Next Year In Jerusalem." During the 17th century, a number of false messiahs appeared among the Jewish community. The most famous (infamous?) of these was Shabbatai Zvi, who actually convinced millions of Jews to proclaim him. Zvi was said to perform miracles, and promised to return the Jews to Palestine. Unfortunately for his followers he was put in prison in Turkey and converted to Islam.With the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, the waiting for a Messiah pretty much has died off among most of the world's Jews, since Israel was created without him. (This is the reason that some Hasidic Jews to this day reject the State of Israel-these are the same fanatics who visited Iran last year.) The fact that Israel was created without a messiah or miracles should, IMO, cause religious Jews to doubt the veracity of their beliefs, since this was not supposed to happen. But of course, as in other religions, most of the believers simply adjust their convictions to include the new information, while the few extremists pretend that it never happened.

 

[Jayrok]

I do think it's funny that Christians always say that Jews are 'waiting for the messiah'. I'm sure it's because the messiah prophecy is so essential to their beliefs. I've never heard a Jew say 'We are waiting for the messiah'. While it is a prophecy in the scripture, it is not a focal point for us.

That is because the culture and political environment have changed from the time the Hebrew Scriptures were written. Much if it was written during the exile and the Jews always were in some type of peril or another. If it wasn't Babylon it was Persia, and later it was Rome. Someone was always oppressing the Jews and governing them, even on their own soil. As such books like Daniel were written and later Revelation in the Christian canon. During those days they were longing for their messiah, a man of God who would come and set things right. To expel their oppressors and restore Jerusalem to Torah observance and establish itself as the center of worship to God and a light to the gentile nations to come to know God. The messiah wasn't God in the flesh or someone to be worshiped as a God. He was to act as the high priest and a sort of reboot of King David (as described by Ezekiel). Many actually came who were thought to be the messiah. Jesus, perhaps John the Baptist, Judas of Galilee, Simon Bar Kotchba, to name a few. The Jewish historian Josephus actually wrote that the Roman Emperor Vespasian was actually the Jewish messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures. Judaism changed to meet new times, not unlike Christianity over the centuries. When the Temple was destroyed in AD 70, a new form of Judaism surfaced. The Sadducees fell to the way side and the Pharisees with their interpretation of the law came more into the forefront. The Rabbinic Judaism movement began to take over and flourished for hundreds of years. They didn't have a Temple for sacrifices so their religion had to adapt. They were in competition with various Jewish sects of Christianity as well. Orthodox Judaism did not accept Jesus as messiah. The Jewish Christians had their own battles to fight against the growing number of Gentile Christian groups in the second century in various regions of the Roman empire. But the Jews began to stress prayer and thanksgiving instead of sacrifices for sins. And even though the Temple, the center of Judaism, was destroyed, the religion survived.

 

[cstu]

At least he's in heaven now.

 

[CowboysFromHell]

What would happen? Forget the eye makup for a second. Let's say Kobe Bryant was an atheist (he isn't, so far as I know) and that the Lakers won the NBA championship this year and Kobe was MVP. So they're interviewing him, and Kobe said, "First thing, I want to thank my teammates for helping me win. I'm not going to thank the Lord, because there is no Lord."The condemnation that would head in Kobe's direction would be overwhelming. I believe ministers, politicians, and even other basketball players would rush to rebuke him. Kobe's endorsements would be gone quicker than you can say "Tiger Woods." And unless Kobe apologized, there would be a boycott to watch him play. Double standard? You bet your ### there is. Most of us who are self-proclaimed atheists in this forum don't talk about it much outside of this forum, and with good reason: many of us are afraid of how we'll be treated in the outside world if we express our real thoughts, especially in more religous communities. So don't go telling me how brave Stuart Scott is for making that statement. Let a sportscaster declare himself an atheist; he'd probably be out of his job the next day.

Great post. 5 years later, and it hasn't gotten much easier, if any, to be an "out" atheist.