Student Debt Approaching $1.5 Trillion (1 Viewer)

[Juxtatarot]

Michigan has a $12 billion endowment but that has to be the top 2% or so. I doubt Western Kentucky or Seattle Central College have anything like that. 

For the school which I assume means they would pass the cost on to the students. 

If you or anyone else is curious, I found a list of the highest schools:  https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_333.90.asp

 

[Ilov80s]

I have heard some horror stories about how rich and wasteful Michigan is. A coworker's husband works for their Landscaping/Grounds staff. Michigan once bought all these trees to be planted and the staff told them the administration they aren't made for Michigan and won't last the winter. The administration said it was fine and had them planted. After they died, the administrator just kept buying more and having of the same kind of tree to be replanted year after year

 

[Sand]

 At Harvard 

This is one of a few schools that could simply have free tuition.  They got like 1.4B in donations last year.

The median college is not even the University of Miami.  

Of course not.  They're way, way below the median.  :softball:

I have heard some horror stories about how rich and wasteful Michigan is. 

Michigan has been pinged in the media a few times for their massively outsized diversity staff.  Over 100 administrators worth.

 

[Ilov80s]

Michigan has been pinged in the media a few times for their massively outsized diversity staff.  Over 100 administrators worth.

Michigan blows money like crazy. However, they also have a good set-up where if meet certain academic standards and your parents income is under something like $75k then the school will let you attend tuition free. Those 100 administrators probably=1 Harbaugh in pay. 

 

[The Commish]

Michigan blows money like crazy. However, they also have a good set-up where if meet certain academic standards and your parents income is under something like $75k then the school will let you attend tuition free. Those 100 administrators probably=1 Harbaugh in pay. 

And they are part of the B1G's CIC which is a huge windfall that affords many the access they wouldn't normally have.

 

[Ilov80s]

And they are part of the B1G's CIC which is a huge windfall that affords many the access they wouldn't normally have.

Yes and they have a large wealthy donor base. 

 

[The Commish]

Yes and they have a large wealthy donor base. 

As well as a large not so wealthy donor base  

 

[stlrams]

If you or anyone else is curious, I found a list of the highest schools:  https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_333.90.asp

So stats are old and understated as I know someone in Yale’s investment unit. They are over 30.0b now.  Why should students and government take all the risk especially considering the huge endowments.  What is Yale going to do with 30.0b?..  why do they need that much?  Let’s colleges take some risk as we have some schools that recruit poor students knowing full well that they are poor credit risks but will qualify for students loans.  

 

[pollardsvision]

So poor kids will have limited access to the elite  colleges because their ability to take a loan for that education will now be capped.  That will just mean the elite/expensive  schools will be filled with even more rich privileged kids.  The cost of college education is not going to suddenly and significantly drop because of capped loans.  Bad news for America.  Great news for the Kushners and Lori Laughlin's of the world.  No need to buy buildings or cheat and bribe to get your kid into colleges - you just need to pay full price.  As with anything Trump does you have to ask what's in it for him ---or in this case when does Barron graduate from HS?

I'm not sure what the solution is, but you know what poor kids don't need? $200K in debt. 

"Elite" colleges are not a necessity, and in many cases, a terrible decision. There are many ways to get a good education and improve somebody's financial outlook that don't involve people going to colleges they cannot afford. 

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

I'm not sure what the solution is, but you know what poor kids don't need? $200K in debt. 

"Elite" colleges are not a necessity, and in many cases, a terrible decision. There are many ways to get a good education and improve somebody's financial outlook that don't involve people going to colleges they cannot afford. 

Then perhaps the elite schools should be charging tuition based on ability to pay. He's right that absent that type of solution, the elite schools will only have wealthy kids attending. "Sorry kid, you can't afford it" shouldn't be the answer. Not saying that's what you're proposing, but absent some solution that will be the outcome.

 

[stlrams]

Then perhaps the elite schools should be charging tuition based on ability to pay. He's right that absent that type of solution, the elite schools will only have wealthy kids attending. "Sorry kid, you can't afford it" shouldn't be the answer. Not saying that's what you're proposing, but absent some solution that will be the outcome.

I believe read or saw that roughly 50% of Yale students get aid.  Imagine its similar at all elite schools. 

 

[Stealthycat]

let me ask this - I've been thinking about it past few days

lets say college is paid for as the liberals are pushing it ............ what incentive is there for a high schooler to get good grades? many athletes try and excel so they can go to college on a scholarship .... that will end. Nobody will try to gain scholarships anymore at all, because there will be no need for them. 

Denver University announced they no longer want test scores ..... they're not going to use them as a means of evaluating students for admission, athletic skills, community service, race, gender etc are going to be used

I guess I'm just seeing a future coming where there is no motivation to do anything more than bare bones basics ......... because you're already going to be guaranteed a college scholarship, test scores won't matter, even basic income guarantee's are talked about. Just crazy 

 

[Godsbrother]

let me ask this - I've been thinking about it past few days

lets say college is paid for as the liberals are pushing it ............ what incentive is there for a high schooler to get good grades? many athletes try and excel so they can go to college on a scholarship .... that will end. Nobody will try to gain scholarships anymore at all, because there will be no need for them. 

Denver University announced they no longer want test scores ..... they're not going to use them as a means of evaluating students for admission, athletic skills, community service, race, gender etc are going to be used

I guess I'm just seeing a future coming where there is no motivation to do anything more than bare bones basics ......... because you're already going to be guaranteed a college scholarship, test scores won't matter, even basic income guarantee's are talked about. Just crazy 

I legitimately do not know so that is why I am asking.  Are the "liberals" asking for the elimination of entrance exams to get into college?  

 

[pollardsvision]

Then perhaps the elite schools should be charging tuition based on ability to pay. He's right that absent that type of solution, the elite schools will only have wealthy kids attending. "Sorry kid, you can't afford it" shouldn't be the answer. Not saying that's what you're proposing, but absent some solution that will be the outcome.

Actually, yes, I am saying, if talking elite private schools, then "sorry kid, you can't afford it" should be the answer. Tuition and debt are both out of control, and something has to give. Having more people do things they can't afford certainly isn't the answer. 

I'm not aware of any profession that requires an elite private education to pursue. So, I'm not sure what folks would be being deprived of. Offer as many scholarship programs as possible, but I don't see anything wrong with encouraging sensible choices when it comes to education and borrowing money for it.

To bring costs down, we need to reduce demand (and the "free money" that helps drive it). Part of the answer is to stop putting elite, expensive schools on a pedestal in the first place. For many kids, borrowing money to party at an elite school for 4 years and get a useless degree is a terrible idea (or worse, 5 years and summer school because they don't want to take on too much of a work load). More kids need to be going to community colleges and trade schools to learn useful skills at a fraction of the price. And high schools shouldn't poopoo that route. You want out of poverty? Great. Go be a nurse or an electrician. And work 30 hours a week while you do it, if your parents can't help. Want something more, great, head to your in-state public University. A little more expensive, but still a lot cheaper than a private school. 

I'm sorry if not every kid gets to go into debt to rub elbows with Aunt Becky's kids for 4 years. I suspect they'll be better off for it.

 

[Shula-holic]

Michigan blows money like crazy. However, they also have a good set-up where if meet certain academic standards and your parents income is under something like $75k then the school will let you attend tuition free. Those 100 administrators probably=1 Harbaugh in pay. 

I think Harbaugh makes about $7MM.  But much like people complain about Saban in Alabama, he has more than brought that money back in revenue.  As a ticket broker who has seats there, I can tell you it went from "Add all you want, we will sell you anything as long as you pay the donation", to "You can't add anymore and if you want on the waiting list it's $500 minimum with no guarantee each year you'll even get one pair of seats.  Also, you'll have to then pay for those seats if you do get some".  Given the size of Michigan Stadium, the incremental revenue he's generated in ticket sales alone has to be in the millions.  It would only take selling 7K incremental seats at average revenue of $1000 to pay for his entire salary.  I'd guess that's roughly the amount of unsold tickets they had during the Brady Hoke years.  Given that you'd be paying another coach at least a few million anyway, Harbaugh is a bargain.  That's before you get to other advertising revenues, etc. which is where even more incremental revenue is generated.

 

[The Commish]

I legitimately do not know so that is why I am asking.  Are the "liberals" asking for the elimination of entrance exams to get into college?  

No. There would still entrance criteria in any proposal i have ever seen. There'd also be desires to strive for scholarships to pay for room and board,  food,  books etc

Clearly he hasn't been thinking about this vey hard. 

 

[Stealthycat]

I legitimately do not know so that is why I am asking.  Are the "liberals" asking for the elimination of entrance exams to get into college?  

I'm not sure who initiated the Denver University changes .... I'm assuming liberals yes

 

[Ilov80s]

I think Harbaugh makes about $7MM.  But much like people complain about Saban in Alabama, he has more than brought that money back in revenue.  As a ticket broker who has seats there, I can tell you it went from "Add all you want, we will sell you anything as long as you pay the donation", to "You can't add anymore and if you want on the waiting list it's $500 minimum with no guarantee each year you'll even get one pair of seats.  Also, you'll have to then pay for those seats if you do get some".  Given the size of Michigan Stadium, the incremental revenue he's generated in ticket sales alone has to be in the millions.  It would only take selling 7K incremental seats at average revenue of $1000 to pay for his entire salary.  I'd guess that's roughly the amount of unsold tickets they had during the Brady Hoke years.  Given that you'd be paying another coach at least a few million anyway, Harbaugh is a bargain.  That's before you get to other advertising revenues, etc. which is where even more incremental revenue is generated.

When Harbaugh took over, season tickets went from 84k to 90k. Harbaugh got it up to 93k. I think it dropped to 89k last year. So of course Harbaugh is generating income for the school. I know he is worth a lot to the school. $7million? Probably although it is unfortunate that the coaches and top administrators in college are so motivated by money. 

 

[Godsbrother]

I'm not sure who initiated the Denver University changes .... I'm assuming liberals yes

But doesn't this new policy put the emphasis on the grades achieved in high school rather than SAT and ACT scores?

 

[JohnnyU]

I think Harbaugh makes about $7MM.  But much like people complain about Saban in Alabama, he has more than brought that money back in revenue.  As a ticket broker who has seats there, I can tell you it went from "Add all you want, we will sell you anything as long as you pay the donation", to "You can't add anymore and if you want on the waiting list it's $500 minimum with no guarantee each year you'll even get one pair of seats.  Also, you'll have to then pay for those seats if you do get some".  Given the size of Michigan Stadium, the incremental revenue he's generated in ticket sales alone has to be in the millions.  It would only take selling 7K incremental seats at average revenue of $1000 to pay for his entire salary.  I'd guess that's roughly the amount of unsold tickets they had during the Brady Hoke years.  Given that you'd be paying another coach at least a few million anyway, Harbaugh is a bargain.  That's before you get to other advertising revenues, etc. which is where even more incremental revenue is generated.

Yet he can't beat Ohio State

 

[Stealthycat]

But doesn't this new policy put the emphasis on the grades achieved in high school rather than SAT and ACT scores?

maybe so , who knows what they'll use

if you are a 3.9 GPA kid, you're not going to score a 15 on the ACT at your best .............. it doesn't work that way. With rare instances would a low GPA student score high or a high GPA student score low (within reason)

I have come to believe that college admissions needs to be based on high school GPA, test scores on multiple platforms, accolades etc .............. and the school NEVER knows if the person applying is male, female, black, white, brown, tall, skinny, hetero, homo, bi, fat, skinny ...... a resident, a non-resident and for damn sure they never know what the W2's of the parents are. Total anonymity except for the transcript of the students accomplishments

your personal achievements defines the doors that will be opened for you - your achievements and nobody else's

 

[Stealthycat]

But doesn't this new policy put the emphasis on the grades achieved in high school rather than SAT and ACT scores?

maybe so , who knows what they'll use

if you are a 3.9 GPA kid, you're not going to score a 15 on the ACT at your best .............. it doesn't work that way. With rare instances would a low GPA student score high or a high GPA student score low (within reason)

 

[Godsbrother]

maybe so , who knows what they'll use

if you are a 3.9 GPA kid, you're not going to score a 15 on the ACT at your best .............. it doesn't work that way. With rare instances would a low GPA student score high or a high GPA student score low (within reason)

My point was that you were asking "what incentive is there for a high schooler to get good grades".  If the entrance criteria to get into college are grades then that would be an incentive to have good grades.

 

[Shula-holic]

When Harbaugh took over, season tickets went from 84k to 90k. Harbaugh got it up to 93k. I think it dropped to 89k last year. So of course Harbaugh is generating income for the school. I know he is worth a lot to the school. $7million? Probably although it is unfortunate that the coaches and top administrators in college are so motivated by money. 

They’ll sell out if they want this year with Notre Dame coming. If it went down last year they choked it off themselves. I had accounts that wanted to add and they refused to let any existing ticket holders add any even if you only had a pair. New donors could only add one pair as well. They do sell a lot themselves in single games marked up and in mini plans. 

 

[Mister CIA]

This should not be that complicated.  Make year one at a community/junior college free.  If you excel, year two is free (or you get bumped up to a state U for the same free ride).  Throw in a little means test, say if your parents are well-off, then they pay.  The goal here is that bright people can receive a college education without incurring crippling debt.  Maybe allow student debt to balloon to the size of an average car note along the way.

As far as private schools go that do not receive benefits from taxpayers, they can do whatever they want, but I would hope that incentives are aligned so that they recruit the best of the best from state universities for masters and PhD programs. To add a liberal spin, have programs in place to provide housing and meals (and daycare too) along the way for those truly in need.  Couple this with some public service requirements proportional to the benefits received, and society profits. Who among us does not like profit?

 

[Sand]

This should not be that complicated.  Make year one at a community/junior college free.  If you excel, year two is free (or you get bumped up to a state U for the same free ride).  Throw in a little means test, say if your parents are well-off, then they pay.  The goal here is that bright people can receive a college education without incurring crippling debt.  Maybe allow student debt to balloon to the size of an average car note along the way.

  

We're now just trading entrance scams with grading scams with this scheme.

 

[Mister CIA]

  

We're now just trading entrance scams with grading scams with this scheme.

Where are you going, man?  I'm mainly suggesting that we make 13th grade free, and reward the best performers.

 

[The Commish]

What public schools ask for W2s as part of the application process and how are these schools supposed to abide by the federal demographics regulations if they don't know your demographics?   

 

[Ilov80s]

Many schools removed the SAT/ACT component for a very simple reason. The only thing the ACT and SAT are designed to do is predict the likelihood of success in the first year of college. However high school GPA is more highly correlated to success in the first year of college than ACT/SAT scores. Therefore many schools aren't bothering with the test since there is a better predictor available. 

 

[E Street Brat]

Does anybody have a reliable, comprehensive study on why college costs have become so out of control?

No link or study, but it's because the federal government backs the loans, So the schools can charge whatever they want with no fear of being stiffed. 

 

[IC FBGCav]

let me ask this - I've been thinking about it past few days

lets say college is paid for as the liberals are pushing it ............ what incentive is there for a high schooler to get good grades? many athletes try and excel so they can go to college on a scholarship .... that will end. Nobody will try to gain scholarships anymore at all, because there will be no need for them. 

Denver University announced they no longer want test scores ..... they're not going to use them as a means of evaluating students for admission, athletic skills, community service, race, gender etc are going to be used

I guess I'm just seeing a future coming where there is no motivation to do anything more than bare bones basics ......... because you're already going to be guaranteed a college scholarship, test scores won't matter, even basic income guarantee's are talked about. Just crazy 

Then it would be a true free market, best students get their choice of the best schools.  Now there is now way this would happen because then the schools couldn't take bribes errrrrrrrr donations from the elite.

 

[Sand]

Then it would be a true free market, best students get their choice of the best schools.  Now there is now way this would happen because then the schools couldn't take bribes errrrrrrrr donations from the elite.

All of the schools that we'd probably categorize as elite are private.  They can, and should, be allowed to set their own entrance standards.  If that includes a monetary door (Dre donated 70M to USC - do you not think that is worth one student slot?), so be it.

The standards for a state school, say UC Berkeley, should be different.

 

[Stealthycat]

Then it would be a true free market, best students get their choice of the best schools.  Now there is now way this would happen because then the schools couldn't take bribes errrrrrrrr donations from the elite. 

not a free market at all - someone would have to pay for all that

but talk about removing all motivation from students - tell them regardless of effort, they'll get into college for free, they don't have to really work at anything

 

[The Commish]

not a free market at all - someone would have to pay for all that

but talk about removing all motivation from students - tell them regardless of effort, they'll get into college for free, they don't have to really work at anything

Why do you keep saying stupid #### like this?  Can you give me a single proposed program that doesn't have entrance criteria?  FFS, Bernie's 2016 proposal was based on "if the school deems you qualified to attend there" and his program was the most liberal of them all then.  Could you please stop for 5 seconds and educate yourself even a little bit on the various proposals out there before you post?

 

[IC FBGCav]

All of the schools that we'd probably categorize as elite are private.  They can, and should, be allowed to set their own entrance standards.  If that includes a monetary door (Dre donated 70M to USC - do you not think that is worth one student slot?), so be it.

The standards for a state school, say UC Berkeley, should be different.

So you are for corruption, got it.  Pay for a degree is capitalism but paying for tuition is socialist.  Morally bankrupt is where we are.

 

[Stealthycat]

Why do you keep saying stupid #### like this?  Can you give me a single proposed program that doesn't have entrance criteria?  FFS, Bernie's 2016 proposal was based on "if the school deems you qualified to attend there" and his program was the most liberal of them all then.  Could you please stop for 5 seconds and educate yourself even a little bit on the various proposals out there before you post?

everyone gets a participation ribbon - ever heard of that ?

when things are given and not earned they have far less value - if you don't believe that I can't help you with it but its a certain fact of life and many of this next generation simply doesn't get it

they want $15 an hour to flip a burger, free phones and free healthcare and even as far as free money every month just because they're alive ! They have a hate towards anyone who's actually put in years of college and/or technical education, who's worked their way into great paying jobs or they're had the initiative to be over achievers because all this generation sees is someone has more than them and they want that too - without putting any effort towards it

we can argue this all day - you either see it, or you don't 

 

[The Commish]

Why do you keep saying stupid #### like this?  Can you give me a single proposed program that doesn't have entrance criteria?  FFS, Bernie's 2016 proposal was based on "if the school deems you qualified to attend there" and his program was the most liberal of them all then.  Could you please stop for 5 seconds and educate yourself even a little bit on the various proposals out there before you post?

everyone gets a participation ribbon - ever heard of that ?

when things are given and not earned they have far less value - if you don't believe that I can't help you with it but its a certain fact of life and many of this next generation simply doesn't get it

they want $15 an hour to flip a burger, free phones and free healthcare and even as far as free money every month just because they're alive ! They have a hate towards anyone who's actually put in years of college and/or technical education, who's worked their way into great paying jobs or they're had the initiative to be over achievers because all this generation sees is someone has more than them and they want that too - without putting any effort towards it

we can argue this all day - you either see it, or you don't 

So, no, you can't give me a single proposal that is structured as you claim.  I didn't think so.  Here's the deal.  I don't disagree with the concept you present in that if everyone was given free education with no conditions it would be a huge failure.  Your problem is, that's not even remotely close to what's been proposed.  You do this with just about every single topic you "discuss" here.  You come up with some scenario that literally NO ONE is proposing and attack it as if it's the mainstream core premise of all the proposals.  It makes absolutely no sense and why you get virtually no responses (expect from guys like me, who for whatever reason still try to understand who you are and what you're about).  I do think I'm about done with that though.  It's been fruitless thus far.

 

[Sand]

So you are for corruption, got it.  Pay for a degree is capitalism but paying for tuition is socialist.  Morally bankrupt is where we are.

I'm not sure what's different between paying for a slot and paying tuition.  Definitely not paying for the degree - students have ample opportunity to flunk themselves out.

I just don't see the moral depravity in making a slot for someone who donates 70M to your school.

 

[IC FBGCav]

I'm not sure what's different between paying for a slot and paying tuition.  Definitely not paying for the degree - students have ample opportunity to flunk themselves out.

I just don't see the moral depravity in making a slot for someone who donates 70M to your school.

I am sure you don't.  As you cannot see how buying a slot = degree.  

 

[Ilov80s]

everyone gets a participation ribbon - ever heard of that ?

when things are given and not earned they have far less value - if you don't believe that I can't help you with it but its a certain fact of life and many of this next generation simply doesn't get it

they want $15 an hour to flip a burger, free phones and free healthcare and even as far as free money every month just because they're alive ! They have a hate towards anyone who's actually put in years of college and/or technical education, who's worked their way into great paying jobs or they're had the initiative to be over achievers because all this generation sees is someone has more than them and they want that too - without putting any effort towards it

we can argue this all day - you either see it, or you don't 

A couple issues I see with the logic. There’s a difference between everyone gets a participation ribbon and every kid gets accepted into the University of Michigan. If kids didn’t earn the grades, they wouldn’t get into the school and would fail out of HS or end up community college.

As for raising minimum wage, the Baby Boomers entering the work force making minimum wage made more  than minimum wage now.

 

[Sand]

I am sure you don't.  As you cannot see how buying a slot = degree.  

You seem to think this country is a pure meritocracy.  It's not.  Those large paying donors help get financial aid to those who need it to attend the same school.

I say that as someone who worked their tail off, earned a full scholarship, and managed to get out of a non-elite state university with a degree that has afforded me a pretty good living.  

 

[Stealthycat]

So, no, you can't give me a single proposal that is structured as you claim.  I didn't think so.  Here's the deal.  I don't disagree with the concept you present in that if everyone was given free education with no conditions it would be a huge failure.  Your problem is, that's not even remotely close to what's been proposed.  You do this with just about every single topic you "discuss" here.  You come up with some scenario that literally NO ONE is proposing and attack it as if it's the mainstream core premise of all the proposals.  It makes absolutely no sense and why you get virtually no responses (expect from guys like me, who for whatever reason still try to understand who you are and what you're about).  I do think I'm about done with that though.  It's been fruitless thus far.

maybe you're right ... maybe nothing will be given freely and they'll have to earn what they get

 

[The Commish]

maybe you're right ... maybe nothing will be given freely and they'll have to earn what they get

Just read the freakin' proposals....then you'll know exactly what they are proposing.  Of course, once you do that, you can't do this shtick outlined above so I guess there is a downside.

 

[beef]

DeVos accused of scheming to stop the next president from canceling student loan debt

Billionaire Education Secretary Betsy DeVos this week proposed handing over the federal government's $1.5 trillion student loan portfolio to a "stand-alone government corporation," a move observers condemned as a corrupt ploy to strip the next president of the ability to cancel student loan debt.

"This very much appears to be a Betsy DeVos scheme to block the next president from unilaterally forgiving federal student debt, which she is well aware a president could do without Congress," The Intercept's Ryan Grim wrote in a series of tweets late Wednesday. "The DeVos family is heavily invested in the student loan industry and this is just flat-out corruption."

 

[ShamrockPride]

Just catching up on some Joe Rogan tonight at work and found this Peter Schiff interview done just a few days ago.

I'm sure some people here more knowledgeable in this area than I have some views on Schiff, but I found this clip (and many others) quite interesting. I mean, given his background he seems like a good source, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way, figured I'd share one person's perspective.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Just catching up on some Joe Rogan tonight at work and found this Peter Schiff interview done just a few days ago.

I'm sure some people here more knowledgeable in this area than I have some views on Schiff, but I found this clip (and many others) quite interesting. I mean, given his background he seems like a good source, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way, figured I'd share one person's perspective.

I think he’s mostly right. However, I disagree that ending student loans is an “easy solution”. It would be a gigantic mess for many years.