Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Talk to me about the Shiancoe "TD" last night (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Alex P Keaton
- Start date
az_prof
Footballguy
I think I am going to start a Facebook page calling for some kind of refereeing reform. What should it entail?1) Year round, paid referees2) Head Coaches get to grade referees; scores of refs are public; fire those who score worse than a B at the end of the season.3) Pay for Success: Referee pay scale determined by their end of year average grade.4) Simplify rule book.Anything else?
Last edited by a moderator:
Restricted
Footballguy
RE the shianco play, guy trapped the ball in between his arms, ball hit the ground while in between his arms and it popped to his body for the catch. If trapping the ball in between your arms is control, so be it. If he were to trap it with his legs, bring it down to the ground and it pops up from hitting the ground into his arms would it be a catch?
While on discussion on refs and that game though, what about the last almost TD Favre to Harvin. The ref was right there and the catch was SO obviously out of bounds that it was embarrassing. Watching the replays I could see that the ref was focused on the ball control probably caused from the prior calls but still. Shame something like that had to be replayed when the snake should of bit him.
While on discussion on refs and that game though, what about the last almost TD Favre to Harvin. The ref was right there and the catch was SO obviously out of bounds that it was embarrassing. Watching the replays I could see that the ref was focused on the ball control probably caused from the prior calls but still. Shame something like that had to be replayed when the snake should of bit him.
No way. To many people here saying they got it right.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
We still have no proof that the NFL "admitted it got the call wrong." What we do have is Childress claiming that the NFL told him such. I realize this might be a subtle distinction for some, but until there is an official announcement, all we have is Childress trying to save his own job.
az_prof
Footballguy
Do you really think that he would misrepresent what the league told him? You don't think that the league would fine him to kingdom come for lying about what they said about refereeing?It is funny to me how even in the face of clear evidence people refuse to believe that the referees got it wrong. It goes to show how hard it is for people to question the reality of power.
bbuster
Footballguy
It was so obviously a catch, I didn't even bother waiting for the ref to go under the hood...was obviously shocked when I came back and found out they had overturned it. There was certainly not enough evidence to overturn it.
Just heard on the NFL network that the NFL admitted the the ref got it wrong...should have been a TD. Would the Favre bashers be singing a different tune today if the ref got it right and the Vikings won? Probably not.
Just heard on the NFL network that the NFL admitted the the ref got it wrong...should have been a TD. Would the Favre bashers be singing a different tune today if the ref got it right and the Vikings won? Probably not.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
az_prof said:
Please point to where, in my above comment, I said that "the referees got the call right." Yes, I believe that Childress would distort the truth to save his job.I think it's far more likely that, to pacify Childress, someone in the league office told him "you're right, it was a bad call."
And none of these comments have any bearing on whether or not I think the call was incorrect. It's pretty clear to me that, at a minimum, there wasn't enough visual evidence to overturn the call. I just take issue with people -- you in this case -- stating as fact that the NFL admitted it got the call wrong. We don't know that. Again, all we know is that Childress claimed the NFL admitted it got the call wrong.
You might find this to be a trivial difference, but I don't.
sho nuff
Footballguy
The only thing we are still going on is what Childress is saying.Now, he would be foolish to do such a thing.As for if the Vikings won...they may have...we will never know how it would have played out had it stood.Just as in so many other games we will never know how they would have played out had a call been made that should have been.bbuster said:
sho nuff
Footballguy
Looks like Childress is getting fined anyway. Either for claiming it was the worst officiated game he had seen...and speculation is part of it might be for mentioning the conversation with the NFL.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id...-brad-childress
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id...-brad-childress
Last edited by a moderator:
ScottyFargo
Footballguy
az_prof said:Please point to where, in my above comment, I said that "the referees got the call right." Yes, I believe that Childress would distort the truth to save his job.
I think it's far more likely that, to pacify Childress, someone in the league office told him "you're right, it was a bad call."
And none of these comments have any bearing on whether or not I think the call was incorrect. It's pretty clear to me that, at a minimum, there wasn't enough visual evidence to overturn the call. I just take issue with people -- you in this case -- stating as fact that the NFL admitted it got the call wrong. We don't know that. Again, all we know is that Childress claimed the NFL admitted it got the call wrong.
You might find this to be a trivial difference, but I don't.
Pacify Chilly by saying the Vikes were screwed out of the win?
I think it is far more likely that, you 
packersfan
Footballguy
I used to think it was pretty obvious but since the Calvin Johnson play I'm not so sure anymore.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Well, the league fined him today, partly for disclosing that they "admitted making an error."childress finedaz_prof said:
this is a huge problem. All season long this exact scenario has been called different. The NFL emphasized the "must complete the catch" rules and just muddied the water even more.EDIT: I don't blame the Vikings or fans for being pissed ... at the same time I can see exactly why the official called it the way he did. The rule leaves too much up for interpretation.
Last edited by a moderator:
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Yeah, not exactly stellar performance by the league or the officials.
Sam Quentin
Footballguy
rgarless of this idiotic "process" interpretation which is a bastardization of the meaning of the words "to the ground" - he did not make it to the ground without half the football landing on the ground.
Sam Quentin
Footballguy
Refs spebd their non-Sunday work week studying film and reviewing scenarios ad nauseum
Jeremy
Footballguy
Well, if the league says they got it wrong, they got it wrong.
Of course that play likely never happens if not for the bogus 15 yard "late hit" penalty on Collins the play before (Harvin was clearly in bounds when the hit was made). They're not going to call the same offense and same defense on the 32 yard line as they did on the 17 yard line. So we'll never know what would have happened with competent refs.
Of course that play likely never happens if not for the bogus 15 yard "late hit" penalty on Collins the play before (Harvin was clearly in bounds when the hit was made). They're not going to call the same offense and same defense on the 32 yard line as they did on the 17 yard line. So we'll never know what would have happened with competent refs.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
I'm still waiting for a link that actually shows the league saying "we got it wrong" as opposed to a link saying "Childress says the league told him that they got it wrong"
Jeremy
Footballguy
Certainly you'll acknowledge that Childress is the very personification of honesty.
Wilbur Wood
Footballguy
What I don't understand is why the "official" does not get fired for this type of mistake.
When it is painfully obvious to any intelligent football fan watching on TV, the announcers broadcasting the game AND then the NFL issues its obligatory "we made a mistake" letter following the game, the replay official who got such call wrong should be FIRED or at a minimum DEMOTED to the duties of carrying the 1st down markers on the sidelines.
A lot of this stuff isn't that HARD. Anyone can miss a call like that in real speed live action but there is absolutely no excuse for eff-ing up a big TD call in real game that arguably could impact a win or a loss.
When it is painfully obvious to any intelligent football fan watching on TV, the announcers broadcasting the game AND then the NFL issues its obligatory "we made a mistake" letter following the game, the replay official who got such call wrong should be FIRED or at a minimum DEMOTED to the duties of carrying the 1st down markers on the sidelines.
A lot of this stuff isn't that HARD. Anyone can miss a call like that in real speed live action but there is absolutely no excuse for eff-ing up a big TD call in real game that arguably could impact a win or a loss.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
It's certainly possible that the NFL realizes how stupid & confusing its rules on "what is a catch" are at this point, thus punishment should really be handed out to the rules committee.That said, I've always been under the assumption that the NFL has protocol for how it handles referee errors. While they haven't sent you a personal memo on the issue, it's still possible that they've already punished the referee.
az_prof
Footballguy
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AhPm...-childressfinedMINNEAPOLIS (AP)—After a narrow loss to bitter division rival Green Bay, Vikings coach Brad Childress seethed at what he called “the worst officiated game I’ve seen.”
On Tuesday, he paid for it.
The NFL fined Childress $35,000 for criticizing officials and disclosing confidential conversations with the officiating department.
Childress sharply criticized the officiating crew after a 28-24 loss to the Packers on Sunday night. He was particularly upset with a replay reversal of a touchdown catch by Vikings tight end Visanthe Shiancoe(notes). He also was upset by a facemask call against right tackle Phil Loadholt(notes) and not calling a hold on Jared Allen(notes) that allowed Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers(notes) to scramble for a first down.
The biggest play was Shiancoe’s touchdown catch. He made a diving grab in the end zone and appeared to secure it as he rolled onto his back. Officials ruled it a touchdown, but upon review, overturned the call. The Vikings wound up settling for a field goal.
Childress first rebuked the officials on the postgame radio show on KFAN. He continued his criticism in his postgame news conference, saying “50 drunks in a bar” would have made the correct call on Shiancoe’s catch.
On Monday, Childress told the media that he spoke to Carl Johnson, the league’s vice president of officiating, about the missed call.
“I was told this morning that that was a touchdown by Carl Johnson,” Childress said. “He was disappointed to see that reversed.”
That, apparently, is another no-no in the NFL.
An NFL spokesman said he was fined “for violating long-standing league policies that prohibit public criticism of officiating and the disclosure of confidential conversations with the head of the NFL officiating department.”
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Just to be clear, you're saying that the bold constitutes proof that the NFL admitted an error?BTW - in case there continues to be confusion, I fully agree that the TD should not have been overturned. I'm just not sure why the NFL -- which has publicly admitted officiating mistakes in the past -- wouldn't just come out and say that directly if they really believed it to be true. Why the hush hush? (speculation: the NFL is embarrassed by how many terrible decisions have already been made this year and how much "noise" exists on this topic, so they want to avoid the issue the remainder of 2010)
Hang 10
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Because despite some thinking its obvious (which is funny that you consider anyone who disagreed to basically not be an intelligent football fan?) plenty disagreed and thought the correct call was made.In the end, to err is human.
az_prof
Footballguy
The NFL almost never admits mistakes by officiating. Why? Because there are plenty of lemmings out there who will believe whatever they are told; if the official rules and then the TV crew say "Hmmmm, I guess it wasn't a catch..." they believe it wasn't a catch. Even if their own eyes tell them differently. The NFL doesn't want people questioning the officiating because it is so bad and is such a huge factor in outcomes. It's the elephant in the room. Childress is being fined because he revealed what the head of NFL officiating told him. If you don't think the fine confirms what he said, then there is really nothing that can convince you.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
To be fair to APK here...from last year:
On the trade rumors about Randy Moss:
Now, those are a bit different than what was said about the NFL telling them that.But the point remains that so far, the NFL has not said anything to the public...Childress has.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Oh, I do believe that the NFL told Childress a mistake was made. I just found it incredibly annoying that people kept saying "the NFL has admitted it made a mistake", as if that was a fact, when the truth was more nuanced. Anyway, we largely agree. The NFL is afraid to have fans question calls. But you must admit, there have been a number of times in the past where the NFL has publicly admitted officiating mistakes.
sho nuff
Footballguy
The NFL has admitted mistakes before.Childress is being fined for what you said sure...but also that comment that it was the worst officiated game he had ever seen. The NFL has never looked kindly on that.
az_prof
Footballguy
No offense Sho because you are usually a reasonable guy. But attitudes like yours are what allow the NFL to keep the officiating as bad as it is. Frankly, I am tired of it. And you guys will be the victims of it too before the season is done I am sure.To be fair to APK here...from last year:On the trade rumors about Randy Moss:Now, those are a bit different than what was said about the NFL telling them that.But the point remains that so far, the NFL has not said anything to the public...Childress has.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Sure, Childress has basically zero credibility. That's part of the issue. But really, most of us agree that there wasn't visual evidence to overturn the call on the field - so it's to be expected that the NFL would admit "we made a mistake."More interesting is that Childress knows he isn't supposed to share this info -- yet he chooses to do it anyway. Why? Because Childress is desperate to keep his job, and even though Sunday's loss falls largely on the shoulders of Childress, he thinks by publicly sharing this info, it places the burden on the NFL.Childress is a terrible coach and an even WORSE leader. What a moron.To be fair to APK here...from last year:
On the trade rumors about Randy Moss:Now, those are a bit different than what was said about the NFL telling them that.But the point remains that so far, the NFL has not said anything to the public...Childress has.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
We've been victims of it constantly this season, you're preaching to the choir. Packer fans know a lot about terrible officiating, week 7 is the first time that we didn't basically get gang-raped by the zebras.
sho nuff
Footballguy
What about my response was not reasonable?THe NFL's officiating will be bad at times because there is a human element. Id love them to have full time refs and train them better.And we have been the victims of it several times going back to last year.
sho nuff
Footballguy
And despite the opinion of one who comes into Packer game day threads, we keep it to a few posts in the game thread and its over.Nobody blaming the refs, nobody going on and on in separate threads continuing to complain about a bad call.
az_prof
Footballguy
I don't disagree that Childress is a terrible coach--I hope he is gone soon. But not sure about the claim that he revealed what the NFL officiating chief said to save his job. He also revealed that he was told had he challenged the one TD by the Pack where the ball popped out at end it would have been overturned. So, in effect, he revealed that he screwed up because he should have challenged and he didn't. That's inexcusable. So, if he was really trying to make himself look better he would have only revealed the part about Shianco's TD and concealed the other part.Incidentally, I don't blame the refs for the bad call on the Pack Td; the game is fast and the ball didn't start to come out until the end of the catch. When I first saw it I thought it was good too. And so the bottom line is that Childress should have challenged. It's on him. Mistakes can happen on the field--I get it. The game is fast. But what really bothers me the most is that on the Shianco TD the ref on the field got it right and then with the benefit of replay and time and head ref overturned it. That's troubling.Sure, Childress has basically zero credibility. That's part of the issue. But really, most of us agree that there wasn't visual evidence to overturn the call on the field - so it's to be expected that the NFL would admit "we made a mistake."More interesting is that Childress knows he isn't supposed to share this info -- yet he chooses to do it anyway. Why? Because Childress is desperate to keep his job, and even though Sunday's loss falls largely on the shoulders of Childress, he thinks by publicly sharing this info, it places the burden on the NFL.Childress is a terrible coach and an even WORSE leader. What a moron.To be fair to APK here...from last year:On the trade rumors about Randy Moss:Now, those are a bit different than what was said about the NFL telling them that.But the point remains that so far, the NFL has not said anything to the public...Childress has.
Last edited by a moderator:
sho nuff
Footballguy
And where the ball came out on the Quarless TD, the ref was blocked by Quarless' body and the defenders there. He was watching more for the catch and where he came down.Unlike the Harvin ref who never appeared to even look at Harvin's feet.On the Shiancoe one...you get a split from people who thought it was a TD or was not. You are going to get that even from refs as it does not appear the NFL has done a very good job at clarifying things even to their own officials.
Last edited by a moderator:
Jeremy
Footballguy
It's not as if we didn't take our share of lumps from the zebras in this one as well. On Rodgers 2nd INT, Frank Walker stepped out of bounds making it illegal for him to be the first one to touch it. Refs missed it. They also missed the illegal contact by Walker on that play. Had they caught either one it's 1st and 10 at the Vikings 22 yard line with a minute plus left in the half, instead of Vikings ball at the 20.As I said earlier, the bogus late hit on Collins was what set up the Shiancoe overturned TD to begin with. Then there was the Jennings catch that appeared to be a 1st down with forward progress. Turned out to be 4th and 1, which we failed to convert. Blame McCarthy for not challenging on that one. All big screw ups that went against us. But since our coach didn't throw a public fit about it, little is said about it.
sho nuff
Footballguy
McCarthy would have lost that challenge IMO.To me Jennings was coming back to the ball and his own momentum brought him back short of the first down. He never got back over the marker. The spot was correct IMO.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
I didn't have an issue with either of those calls.
ScottyFargo
Footballguy
Refs didn't call Matthews on him taking the helmet off last drive, should have been 15 yards and a new set of downs.
And: Part of what Childress was fined for was, quoted from the league, "“for violating long-standing league policies that prohibit public criticism of officiating and the disclosure of confidential conversations with the head of the NFL officiating department.” So as far as this back and forth, can we trust Chilly or not crap goes, there's your answer. The NFL isn't going to be transparent because that doesn't work in their favor, especially in this case. To Wit: "Spokesman Greg Aiello said league policy is not to comment on conversations between Johnson and the clubs. Aiello said Johnson "is obligated to give his factual opinion of any call that is questioned by a club." But the policy also "states that all such conversations are confidential and are not to be discussed publicly," Aiello said.
And: Part of what Childress was fined for was, quoted from the league, "“for violating long-standing league policies that prohibit public criticism of officiating and the disclosure of confidential conversations with the head of the NFL officiating department.” So as far as this back and forth, can we trust Chilly or not crap goes, there's your answer. The NFL isn't going to be transparent because that doesn't work in their favor, especially in this case. To Wit: "Spokesman Greg Aiello said league policy is not to comment on conversations between Johnson and the clubs. Aiello said Johnson "is obligated to give his factual opinion of any call that is questioned by a club." But the policy also "states that all such conversations are confidential and are not to be discussed publicly," Aiello said.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Again, just to be nitpicky: just because Childress disclosed a confidential conversation does not mean that he ACCURATELY disclosed the conversation. So this still isn't proof positive, even though I continue to agree that the call should never have been overturned AND agree that it's likely the NFL also thinks the call was bogus.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Yes...he was fined for both.As for Matthews...what he did was during a play due to his helmet being partially moved...it is not a penalty...nice try.
Jeremy
Footballguy
The Jennings catch is debatable. IMO, at the moment the defender began to tackle him he was easily over the 1st down marker. They had one just like it in the Cowboys/Giants game in which the ref gave forward progress from the moment the defender made contact. It held up under replay. The Collins late hit was flat our wrong. 100%, no question. The replay clearly showed the WR still in bounds when Collins pushed him. Go back and look at it if you have it DVR'd. It's a no doubter.Alex P Keaton said:
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
I already deleted the DVR. It seemed like a close call and IMO Collins has done this so many times that he should be a bit more cautious. But if you say it was a bad call, ok.
Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
Spot calls are the hardest to challenge because you really need to see it in 3 dimensions but you only have 2 at your disposal. It's worse if it's a running play with a bunch of bodies in a pile. I've rarely ever seen spot calls overturned, and I would not be surprised if some coaches just don't think it's worth challenging them.sho nuff said:
