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Chargers control the situation here. If they prefer, they tag Brees and keep around a Pro Bowl QB plus use their two high draft picks to improve the team further. If Rivers remains a viable option, they have a 26 year old Pro Bowl signal caller to auction to the highest bidder.How have the Chargers not "turned the whole Brees thing into a good situation" already?
I don't think trading Brees is going to be difficult - especially if Favre retires - and I'm not too worried about Rivers being able to handle the job next year. I think a lot of teams would love to have the Chargers' "problems" right now.
It's funny you put it this way because it looks to me like the Steelers are the ones who won the battle (at least so far). Well, let's put it another way -- Ben has certainly staked his claim as the best of the three. I know he hasn't been sensational, but I'll take a winner of a QB over a sensation who can't get it done any time (and I'm a Dolphins fan -- I know a lot about the subject).Chargers won this battle, hands down. It isn't even close.
And the Mannings claimed which team was run poorly???
Ben looks good, but it's way premature to be making that call.
The Chargers got the best deal out of it since they have Rivers, Kaeding, at least a top 13 overall pick in the draft and a 5th rounder.All the Steelers did was draft the best QB available - no great insight on their part. If Rivers (or Manning) was there they would have drafted him and I think either would have done pretty well in that situation. Not taking anything away from Ben though, what he has done as a rookie is incredible - undefeated with a 96 rating, 65% completion rate and 15 TD's to 10 INT's. Time to buy low on Eli because as much as I can't stand him he is a talented QB and will figure out how to be an NFL QB within a couple years.
Not so fast my friend...the Steelers didn't panic and move up to the top of the draft to draft the best QB. Sometimes knowing when to sit tight is the best move.The Chargers have essentially traded Manning for Rivers who hasn't played a snap, a kicker
, and some draft choices that may or may not pan out. They may get the better end of the deal yet, but going into the playoffs I'd rather have some firepower on the field contributing now then a backup QB sucking up salary cap space.
You can look at it two ways:- It's premature to make that call, but that attitude really means that we can only evaluate after players are retired. I mean, what if Tom Brady decides to pull a Ricky Williams. Will he be better than a Chad Pennington? Wouldn't it be premature to make that call right now since that's possible?- It isn't premature -- it's making a call based on what we know right now. Phil isn't better than Brees, and Eli is uneven at best. This can and very well may change in the future, but none of us know what the future holds.
Not so fast my friend...the Steelers didn't panic and move up to the top of the draft to draft the best QB. Sometimes knowing when to sit tight is the best move.The Chargers have essentially traded Manning for Rivers who hasn't played a snap, a kicker
That is my attitude as well. The Chargers may look like geniuses down the road after we see how it all pans out, but they don't appear to me to have come out of this in the best place of the three teams. The mindblowing thing is that the Chargers could have ended up with that same package with the exception of Ben for Phil. 
They already spent the 5th rounder -- on Roman Oben.
No, we can evaluate players as soon as they start playing. Or, in a quarterback's case, as soon as he's played a couple years (since many QBs have a terrible first year or two and then go on to do very well).It is probably too early to evaluate Eli Manning, and it is definitely too early to evaluate Philip Rivers -- except to say that he sure does kneel perfectly with the ball. He's three-for-three at taking a knee.
Brees isn't going to be a backup next year.
So...I couldn't have called Yatil Green a bust until he officially retired? Nah, I don't think so. I understand that this is controversial, and I respect your right to a contrary opinion. I just don't think it's premature to evaluate these guys since they have been getting evaluated for their ability to be a pro player before they even entered the league via the draft. It makes no sense to me to be able to compare them then and not compare them now.
Where did I say anything about Yatil Green?
Well, if you're going by "before they entered the league," then I'd say Roethlisberger is third best of the rookie QBs.
Rivers hasn't attempted a pass yet. You think it's not premature to try to evaluate Rivers's ability as a pro?
The trade had to be made with the Giants since it was too good to refuse. I was never that high on Manning, so I didn't want the Chargers to pick him anyway. I wasn't particularly thrilled by them drafting Rivers when Sean Taylor and Roy Williams were available, though it made sense at the time with the problems Brees had in 2003. If you evaluate the trade, here what the Chargers got out of it:Rivers - a potential franchise QB. He's a winner, has a quick release and is extemely accurate. His sidearm delivery shouldn't be a problem since he has the height (6'5") to throw the ball over defenders.Kaeding - yes, he's a kicker but he is accurate and has a big leg. Kickers like Kaeding don't come around every year and the Chargers now have a dependable kicker for years to come.Roman Oben (thanks to Maurile Tremblay for reminding me that the Chargers got him in exchange for the Giants #5) - has been the key to turning around the Chargers O-line. He's a veteran with a Superbowl ring and has brought a lot of leadership to the team.The Giants 2005 #1 pick (between #5 and #13) - the Chargers are going to get a great player out of this pick, whether it's a WR like Mike Williams or Braylon Edwards, OL like D'Brickashaw Ferguson or Alex Barron, or defensive player like Ahmad Brooks, Thomas Davis, Rodrique Wright or Marcus Spears. Whoever it is will make an impact next year.I think being able to get 4 good players for one #1 pick is doing a good jobNot so fast my friend...the Steelers didn't panic and move up to the top of the draft to draft the best QB. Sometimes knowing when to sit tight is the best move.The Chargers have essentially traded Manning for Rivers who hasn't played a snap, a kicker
We'd be saying Ben was a wasted pick (instead of Rivers) as Brees would still be playing at an MVP level.No one would know if Ben is as good as he is right now since he'd be holding a clipboard on the sideline.Rivers may be the best of the 3 QBs, who knows? The Chargers didn't have injuries (Pitt/Maddox) or a benching (NYG/Warner). We won't find out until next year if Rivers can get the starting nod.The mindblowing thing is that the Chargers could have ended up with that same package with the exception of Ben for Phil.
Hey Jimmy,The Chargers have $21 million (or more) under the cap this year. If they tagged Brees and did nothing with him (i.e., moving him or giving him a longer deal) they would still be left with $12 million+ under the cap; one of the more enviable cap situations in the league.
Doing that only delays the problem a year, though. I acknowledge that they might figure out a good way of resolving this, but it isn't all roses.
You didn't say anything about Yatil Green, but I was applying your standard. Green didn't play, so by the standard you set I couldn't judge him until he played or retired.As to "before they entered the league", the Chargers would agree with you. Other teams and other scouts would not. IIRC, some would say Ben was the best.
As Riffraff mentioned, if the Chargers had drafted Roethlisberger, he'd be the QB you'd think isn't as good as the others. That wouldn't be premature?
You can speculate that. I can speculate that he might not have held out and may well be leading the Chargers to the Super Bowl. The truth is that none of us really know.As good as Brees has been, we have to remember that he was in the doghouse in the offseason and that only a pigheaded holdout by Rivers prevented the rookie from competing for that job in camp. If Ben doesn't hold out and if he looks like he has for the Steelers, it is his job.
No doubt. The irony is that Maurile would probably be perfectly comfortable with judging Brees for losing his job because he has had a couple of years if things had worked out differently. That is one reason why I feel comfortable with evaluating everybody but feel that evaluations have to be fluid.
Actually, Maurile is one of the most level headed fans I have ever met. And without putting words in his mouth, he'll take what the chargers have done, no matter how you slice it. If they get antrelle rolle with the giants pick next year (or trade their 2 first rounders to Miami for the #4 pick to take him) I don't think he'll be complaining about that either.
Oh, I totally agree. I don't mean that as an attack on Maurile -- I meant it as a probing comment about how all of our evaluations are imperfect and subject to change because they are so very dependant on team politics and opportunities. For instance, Joe Montana is seen as a huge clutch QB and Dan Marino is seen as the ultimate in stat QBs who couldn't get a championship done. What do you get if they just happen to end up on the opposite teams? Does Montana lead my Dolphins to glory like he did with the Niners? Does he end up looking no better than Strock or Woodley? Does Dan still have trouble getting it done, or does he win a sick number of championships for the Niners? We don't know, and I think we can probably make good faith arguments in all of those directions.
I'm not going to do a search to try to bump old threads, but last offseason I maintained that we couldn't judge Brees based on 2003 because he had no offensive line and no receivers. Get him an offensive line and we'll see what happens. In 2001 and 2002 he'd shown flashes of being a good QB. That's why I wanted to draft Robert Gallery this year instead of a QB (although once the trade was pulled off, I liked getting the extra #1, #3, and #5 in addition to the QB). I would have been quite comfortable going into this season with Brees again, and then drafting a QB in 2005 if he didn't improve with a better OL in front of him.
Fair enough. I will absolutely trust your word there.
Rivers isn't making all that much going forward. I think his 2005 cap number is $2.9 million. Chump change, relatively speaking.
As big a waste as Steve McNair and Chad Pennington were in their first two seasons, I suppose.I don't think it's a waste to have a very good backup QB. It's something that can come in pretty handy.
Agreed.Brees isn't signing anywhere, the Chargers will tag him either to keep him (my guess) or to trade him. But I agree that Brees' isn't going to be too open to a trade to GB without a long term deal and some assurances as to his playing time in 2006 and later.
I would even say 2005. I don't think Brees will go anywhere to be a backup next year if he can stay in SD and start. (Brees will get to choose where he ends up. The Chargers wouldn't be able to trade him without his cooperation.)If Favre were to retire this year, that'd be one thing. Otherwise, I think Brees is more likely to end up somewhere like Miami, Arizona, Cleveland, Dallas, Washington . . . somewhere where he'd be the immediate starter.(That's if he doesn't stay in San Diego, of course.)
The Chargers didn't draft Rivers for him to sit the bench for the rest of his career and they aren't going to trade him. Therefore, Brees will franchised and traded for the best offer they can get. There are quite a few teams (SF, Cleveland, Miami, AZ) with high drafts picks that need a QB that don't want to use that first pick on a QB. Look for one of them to offer their high #2 with some other draft picks/players for Brees. GB and Dallas also have late 1st rounds picks that they could offer for Brees. The best situation would be for Cleveland to trade Garcia and their #2 for Brees. This would allow them to draft D'Brickashaw Ferguson, get a good young QB and not have to pay Garcia next year. For the Chargers Garcia would be a good backup and is only $4.5 million.With the extra money saved by trading Brees, the Chargers can make an offer to Muhammed and be in very good shape for next year. Kyle Turley may also be an option (if he can get healthy) since it's clear he won't be back with the Rams. There's a lot of options for the Chargers that's for sure.
One factor I haven't seen mentioned here is the notion of selling high. If the Chargers keep Brees and he doesn't repeat his career year, they will be worse off when they have to decide whether to let him walk or trade him next year. And what are the odds that he will repeat his career year? I would expect some regression in his play.It would be different if they were in position to potentially keep Brees as their starter indefinitely, but they aren't, unless they are willing to trade Rivers instead and take a massive cap hit, which I consider unlikely.I am one of the biggest Rivers fans on this board, and I personally think the best thing to do is franchise and trade Brees and hand over the reins to Rivers. That's why they drafted Rivers, so they obviously have confidence in his ability to be an effective starter.Even with Brees's excellent play this season, trading him still seems to be the best way to maximize value to the team, as it will spread the available salary cap money and, thus, talent across more positions.
How can people keep saying this? Was it not a hold out by Rivers that prevented a training camp battle for the position? Ben did not hold out. How do you know that had Ben been there he would not have won this job in the preseason and camp. How do you know that Rivers wouldn't have for that matter if he did not hold out. Talk about speculation.
