The Birther Conspiracy Thread (2 Viewers)

[Bronco Billy]

So is the objective here to get this resolved so he can't serve a 2nd term, or are you all planning on throwing him out of office ASAP?

The Birthers have already proven he is a Terrorist Muslim from the future. I don't think they are going to be satisfied without a military tribunal and subsequent beheading.

Is your signature a quote from Obama or just something you made up?

Direct quote verbatim from Obama

 

[Sam Quentin]

I always thought the objective was to get to the truth.

That's rich.The objective is to attack that muslim, kenyan, indonesian, communist, socialist, anti-christ, world excuse tour headliner, terrorist-fist-bumping, american hating, white hating... on anything at all.

look at who's talking crazy now

 

[Bronco Billy]

I always thought the objective was to get to the truth.

That's rich.The objective is to attack that muslim, kenyan, indonesian, communist, socialist, anti-christ, world excuse tour headliner, terrorist-fist-bumping, american hating, white hating... on anything at all.

Alinski-ites out in force today.

 

[tommyGunZ]

And still the debate rages on. The Left is in disbelief they still have to defend this. the Right gets excited because it's a fairy tale scenario where they can get Obama ousted out of office or shine him in a terrible light as many would like to label him a fundamental Islamic terrorist and it helps them sleep better at night.

Actually, most of us on the left think it's hilarious and are very happy that this is still an issue. It's a huge loser for Republicans, so the more it becomes a part of the national conversation, the better.

Again, for the 20% of us that don't belong to either party, it makes great reading material.

Saying you're an independent doesn't make you one MOP. Denying you're a republican is stale shtick.

 

[Jewell]

Yeah, except leading Rs not only don't actively pursue this issue, they didn't pursue it during the elections and they accepted him as their President without raising a fuss. None of which makes a lick of sense if the heads of the party consider O to be some commie, Muslim antichrist. Seems to me, they're satisfied with his credentials and that's waaaay more than enough to become a _MX Fact.

Maybe.

Or maybe they think there's bigger fish to fry. Maybe they don't want to alienate some constituents. Maybe they don't want to suffer the media ridicule. Maybe they don't want to jeopardize their reputation should they be wrong.

Accepting Obama's credentials is probably the most likely scenario, but you can't say for sure.

Maybe they're all from another planet and are part of some intergalactic conspiracy to take over earth, and Obama winning the U.S. presidency is just the start of some master plan that is just starting to come into focus.

Accepting Obama's credentials is probably the most likely scenario, but you can't say for sure.

Not your finest work Tobias.

All I'm saying is that polls reflect a high number of people who vote Republican question Obama's birth. So why would the Republicans themselves not also fall under those numbers?

But, apparently, I'm wrong, and you guys know exactly how all the top Republican brass are thinking on the issue. Shoot me a PM when you do the IPO for your mind reading business -- I want in!

Because most Republicans who are smart enough to hold political office are also smart enough to understand how preposterous it is to question the circumstances of a man's birth when there is a certificate of live birth along with a mountain of other secondary evidence, including a newspaper clipping, that make it perfectly clear that a man satisfies the requirements for the presidency. As a secondary matter, they are also intelligent enough to know that suddenly raising these concerns when we have a black president with a funny name after not raising the same concerns regarding the dozens of other people who have sought the presidency in recent years makes them look like hypocrites with questionable motives.

I would think that is pretty obvious. And as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to alternate theories explaining why otherwise intelligent people would suddenly align themselves with total crackpots, one ridiculous rationale is as good as the next.

That's a sweet 'have your cake and eat it too' argument. So when the Republicans enact policies that you don't like then they're mouth breathing morons. But if they're silent on an issue it's definitive proof of how much more intelligent they are than we little people. Yeah, the politicians we have in this country are a veritable gaggle of geniuses, a dream team of intellects. Have you seen some of the crackpots and dolts we elect in this country on both sides of the aisle.

But even if I concede that elected Republicans are way smarter than we little people, why can't they be swayed by rhetoric? Are the intelligent immune from group think and the pervasive culture around them? Some of the smartest Muslims subscribe to Islamic teachings that seem crazy to the rest of us. Some of the smartest black people I know read into things in a way that has me scratching my head. So even if the Republican brass were filled with intellectual heavyweights, they're still surrounded by Republican culture -- reading similar materials, listening to similar commentators. The intelligent can be influenced too, and group think is a powerful force. Or is your position that no intelligent person has ever believed something stupid?

The only thing I see as obvious is your contempt for non-"intellectuals".

 

[TobiasFunke]

Yeah, except leading Rs not only don't actively pursue this issue, they didn't pursue it during the elections and they accepted him as their President without raising a fuss. None of which makes a lick of sense if the heads of the party consider O to be some commie, Muslim antichrist. Seems to me, they're satisfied with his credentials and that's waaaay more than enough to become a _MX Fact.

Maybe.Or maybe they think there's bigger fish to fry. Maybe they don't want to alienate some constituents. Maybe they don't want to suffer the media ridicule. Maybe they don't want to jeopardize their reputation should they be wrong.

Accepting Obama's credentials is probably the most likely scenario, but you can't say for sure.

Maybe they're all from another planet and are part of some intergalactic conspiracy to take over earth, and Obama winning the U.S. presidency is just the start of some master plan that is just starting to come into focus.Accepting Obama's credentials is probably the most likely scenario, but you can't say for sure.

Not your finest work Tobias. All I'm saying is that polls reflect a high number of people who vote Republican question Obama's birth. So why would the Republicans themselves not also fall under those numbers?

But, apparently, I'm wrong, and you guys know exactly how all the top Republican brass are thinking on the issue. Shoot me a PM when you do the IPO for your mind reading business -- I want in!

Because most Republicans who are smart enough to hold political office are also smart enough to understand how preposterous it is to question the circumstances of a man's birth when there is a certificate of live birth along with a mountain of other secondary evidence, including a newspaper clipping, that make it perfectly clear that a man satisfies the requirements for the presidency. As a secondary matter, they are also intelligent enough to know that suddenly raising these concerns when we have a black president with a funny name after not raising the same concerns regarding the dozens of other people who have sought the presidency in recent years makes them look like hypocrites with questionable motives.I would think that is pretty obvious. And as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to alternate theories explaining why otherwise intelligent people would suddenly align themselves with total crackpots, one ridiculous rationale is as good as the next.

That's a sweet 'have your cake and eat it too' argument. So when the Republicans enact policies that you don't like then they're mouth breathing morons. But if they're silent on an issue it's definitive proof of how much more intelligent they are than we little people. Yeah, the politicians we have in this country are a veritable gaggle of geniuses, a dream team of intellects. Have you seen some of the crackpots and dolts we elect in this country on both sides of the aisle.

But even if I concede that elected Republicans are way smarter than we little people, why can't they be swayed by rhetoric? Are the intelligent immune from group think and the pervasive culture around them? Some of the smartest Muslims subscribe to Islamic teachings that seem crazy to the rest of us. Some of the smartest black people I know read into things in a way that has me scratching my head. So even if the Republican brass were filled with intellectual heavyweights, they're still surrounded by Republican culture -- reading similar materials, listening to similar commentators. The intelligent can be influenced too, and group think is a powerful force. Or is your position that no intelligent person has ever believed something stupid?

The only thing I see as obvious is your contempt for non-"intellectuals".

I'm not sure why you feel the need to put words in my mouth or bait me with some nonsense about how I have "contempt for non-intellectuals" to paint me as some kind of elitist, as if "contempt for non-intellectuals" is the same as "befuddled amusement at a really really stupid position." But I'm not biting. I'm just here for the same reason as most of the other readers- to have a good laugh.

 

[Statorama]

I'm going to try and do my part to bring back a little bit of civility to the board.

There are passionate arguments to be made on both sides of this issue, but let's not devolve into insults and name-calling.

For the record, I don't know where the guy was born. Ignoring the whole Obama angle of this issue, it shows we have a hole in our vetting system as a nation. We need our Presidential candidates to provide valid birth documentation when they file their "intent to run" paperwork. That way we never have this discussion again.

 

[Tiny Dancer]

I'm going to try and do my part to bring back a little bit of civility to the board.There are passionate arguments to be made on both sides of this issue, but let's not devolve into insults and name-calling. For the record, I don't know where the guy was born. Ignoring the whole Obama angle of this issue, it shows we have a hole in our vetting system as a nation. We need our Presidential candidates to provide valid birth documentation when they file their "intent to run" paperwork. That way we never have this discussion again.

Or we could amend the constitution to get rid of the requirement that Presidents have to be born here. That seems to be an even better solution to the problem, to the extent there actually is a problem here.

 

[the moops]

For the record, I don't know where the guy was born.

Sure you do

 

[Fennis]

For the record, I don't know where the guy was born.

Sure you do

Kenya

 

[Statorama]

For the record, I don't know where the guy was born.

Sure you do

Kenya

Got me there

 

[datonn]

So is the objective here to get this resolved so he can't serve a 2nd term, or are you all planning on throwing him out of office ASAP?

I always thought the objective was to get to the truth.But I'd agree the last thing this country needs right now is a Constitutional convention, especially given who would be running that circus.

I think the important question to follow-up on that concept is: Which truth? With which "facts?"People don't want the truth anymore...they want out-of-context bits of information which help them to sleep at night by reinforcing their own world view and moral/religious convictions. People do not want the truth, nor do they seek the truth anymore. People want to be right or win...nothing more.

 

[timschochet]

I'm going to try and do my part to bring back a little bit of civility to the board.There are passionate arguments to be made on both sides of this issue, but let's not devolve into insults and name-calling. For the record, I don't know where the guy was born. Ignoring the whole Obama angle of this issue, it shows we have a hole in our vetting system as a nation. We need our Presidential candidates to provide valid birth documentation when they file their "intent to run" paperwork. That way we never have this discussion again.

Your position is worse, IMO, than anyone else's yet. 1. There may be "passionate" arguments on both sides, but there are not reasonable arguments on both sides. There are the people that have no reason to doubt that Obama was born in the United States of America, and then there are the looney tunes. It is not an even playing field between the two. 2. If anyone actually believes Obama was born outside of the United States (no one here, to my knowledge, has admitted this, though polls suggest 40% of Republicans believe this), that person deserves being made fun of. No one deserves rude insults, but a certain amount of name-calling is justified IMO. 3. The fact that you "don't know where the guy was born" is pathetic. Look it up. He was born in Hawaii. Case closed. 4. We don't have any "hole" in our vetting system. It's not a question of never having this discussing again, it's a question of never having this discussion in the first place. However, I am firmly convinced that if Obama's birthplace were 100% clear, the exact same people who keep this "issue" going would have developed another conspiracy theory, equally as stupid. They did it with Clinton (re: Vince Foster) and they did it with Bush (truthers). The root of these theories lies not in actuall events or problems in our government, but in the mindset of the people who are pushing them.

 

[timschochet]

The problem with this thread is that none of you Obama haters actually has the guts to come out and admit you don't believe he was born here.

Sam Quentin

Brock Middleton

Bronco Billy

jon_mx

These 4 (I may be forgetting somebody) have been the biggest defenders of the "birther" POV. They continue to bring up nearly every talking point that has been spread by WorldNetDaily: the Certificate of Live Birth is not a valid document, he could have obtained a COLB without actually being born in Hawaii, nobody has seen the "actual" birth certifcate, etc.,, etc. Yet not one of these 4 has ever been willing to state: "I don't believe he was born in the United States." Usually the best we get is "he was probably born here, but he's hiding something", etc.

 

[Sam Quentin]

However, I am firmly convinced that if Obama's birthplace were 100% clear, the exact same people who keep this "issue" going would have developed another conspiracy theory, equally as stupid. They did it with Clinton (re: Vince Foster) and they did it with Bush (truthers). The root of these theories lies not in actuall events or problems in our government, but in the mindset of the people who are pushing them.

You don't think it's 100% clear Tim?

 

[Joe Summer]

Or we could amend the constitution to get rid of the requirement that Presidents have to be born here.

Presidents don't have to be born "here" -- they just have to be natural born citizens. John McCain wasn't born here, neither was George Romney. And Obama probably wouldn't be facing all these questions if both of his parents had been U.S. citizens.

 

[timschochet]

However, I am firmly convinced that if Obama's birthplace were 100% clear, the exact same people who keep this "issue" going would have developed another conspiracy theory, equally as stupid. They did it with Clinton (re: Vince Foster) and they did it with Bush (truthers). The root of these theories lies not in actuall events or problems in our government, but in the mindset of the people who are pushing them.

You don't think it's 100% clear Tim?

It would be 100% clear if I had been present. It's 99.99999% clear to me.

 

[timschochet]

Or we could amend the constitution to get rid of the requirement that Presidents have to be born here.

Presidents don't have to be born "here" -- they just have to be natural born citizens. John McCain wasn't born here, neither was George Romney. And Obama probably wouldn't be facing all these questions if both of his parents had been U.S. citizens.

But he would be facing other questions equally as dumb. He would be accused of murder, or drugs, or rape, or embezzlement, or some other form of fraud. The source of this conspiracy is not the law nor the circumstances surrounding his birth.

 

[Sam Quentin]

However, I am firmly convinced that if Obama's birthplace were 100% clear, the exact same people who keep this "issue" going would have developed another conspiracy theory, equally as stupid. They did it with Clinton (re: Vince Foster) and they did it with Bush (truthers). The root of these theories lies not in actuall events or problems in our government, but in the mindset of the people who are pushing them.

You don't think it's 100% clear Tim?

It would be 100% clear if I had been present. It's 99.99999% clear to me.

what's the .00001 % chance that he was born in Kenya or Canada or wherever?

What's the explanation?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

However, I am firmly convinced that if Obama's birthplace were 100% clear, the exact same people who keep this "issue" going would have developed another conspiracy theory, equally as stupid. They did it with Clinton (re: Vince Foster) and they did it with Bush (truthers). The root of these theories lies not in actuall events or problems in our government, but in the mindset of the people who are pushing them.

You don't think it's 100% clear Tim?

It would be 100% clear if I had been present. It's 99.99999% clear to me.

what's the .00001 % chance that he was born in Kenya or Canada or wherever?What's the explanation?

That having not been present at the actual birth, there remains some small iota that every person could have been born elsewhere.

 

[Jewell]

Yeah, except leading Rs not only don't actively pursue this issue, they didn't pursue it during the elections and they accepted him as their President without raising a fuss. None of which makes a lick of sense if the heads of the party consider O to be some commie, Muslim antichrist. Seems to me, they're satisfied with his credentials and that's waaaay more than enough to become a _MX Fact.

Maybe.Or maybe they think there's bigger fish to fry. Maybe they don't want to alienate some constituents. Maybe they don't want to suffer the media ridicule. Maybe they don't want to jeopardize their reputation should they be wrong.

Accepting Obama's credentials is probably the most likely scenario, but you can't say for sure.

Maybe they're all from another planet and are part of some intergalactic conspiracy to take over earth, and Obama winning the U.S. presidency is just the start of some master plan that is just starting to come into focus.Accepting Obama's credentials is probably the most likely scenario, but you can't say for sure.

Not your finest work Tobias. All I'm saying is that polls reflect a high number of people who vote Republican question Obama's birth. So why would the Republicans themselves not also fall under those numbers?

But, apparently, I'm wrong, and you guys know exactly how all the top Republican brass are thinking on the issue. Shoot me a PM when you do the IPO for your mind reading business -- I want in!

Because most Republicans who are smart enough to hold political office are also smart enough to understand how preposterous it is to question the circumstances of a man's birth when there is a certificate of live birth along with a mountain of other secondary evidence, including a newspaper clipping, that make it perfectly clear that a man satisfies the requirements for the presidency. As a secondary matter, they are also intelligent enough to know that suddenly raising these concerns when we have a black president with a funny name after not raising the same concerns regarding the dozens of other people who have sought the presidency in recent years makes them look like hypocrites with questionable motives.I would think that is pretty obvious. And as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to alternate theories explaining why otherwise intelligent people would suddenly align themselves with total crackpots, one ridiculous rationale is as good as the next.

That's a sweet 'have your cake and eat it too' argument. So when the Republicans enact policies that you don't like then they're mouth breathing morons. But if they're silent on an issue it's definitive proof of how much more intelligent they are than we little people. Yeah, the politicians we have in this country are a veritable gaggle of geniuses, a dream team of intellects. Have you seen some of the crackpots and dolts we elect in this country on both sides of the aisle.

But even if I concede that elected Republicans are way smarter than we little people, why can't they be swayed by rhetoric? Are the intelligent immune from group think and the pervasive culture around them? Some of the smartest Muslims subscribe to Islamic teachings that seem crazy to the rest of us. Some of the smartest black people I know read into things in a way that has me scratching my head. So even if the Republican brass were filled with intellectual heavyweights, they're still surrounded by Republican culture -- reading similar materials, listening to similar commentators. The intelligent can be influenced too, and group think is a powerful force. Or is your position that no intelligent person has ever believed something stupid?

The only thing I see as obvious is your contempt for non-"intellectuals".

I'm not sure why you feel the need to put words in my mouth or bait me with some nonsense about how I have "contempt for non-intellectuals" to paint me as some kind of elitist, as if "contempt for non-intellectuals" is the same as "befuddled amusement at a really really stupid position." But I'm not biting. I'm just here for the same reason as most of the other readers- to have a good laugh.

Same here.But should you wish to continue, we both live in DC. I can meet you on the National Mall for a wrestling match.

 

[timschochet]

However, I am firmly convinced that if Obama's birthplace were 100% clear, the exact same people who keep this "issue" going would have developed another conspiracy theory, equally as stupid. They did it with Clinton (re: Vince Foster) and they did it with Bush (truthers). The root of these theories lies not in actuall events or problems in our government, but in the mindset of the people who are pushing them.

You don't think it's 100% clear Tim?

It would be 100% clear if I had been present. It's 99.99999% clear to me.

what's the .00001 % chance that he was born in Kenya or Canada or wherever?

What's the explanation?

Here's what's important: when I read what is reported to be a fact in several reputable sources, I assume it's true unless I am given reason to believe otherwise. I believe that one should always have an open mind about everything- if you are given facts or strong reasons that contradict what you previously believed, then you should be willing to change your assumptions. I assume that Obama was born in Hawaii because that's what I have read in every reputatble source. My knowledge does not extend further than that. I don't know him personally, and I wasn't there. I have never read anything that would cause me to question this information. Therefore I accept it as true.

 

[Tiny Dancer]

Or we could amend the constitution to get rid of the requirement that Presidents have to be born here.

Presidents don't have to be born "here" -- they just have to be natural born citizens. John McCain wasn't born here, neither was George Romney. And Obama probably wouldn't be facing all these questions if both of his parents had been U.S. citizens.

Right, whatever. Get rid of the "natural born" requirement. Just being a citizen is enough.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

OK, so I have a serious question here: why do the polls suggest that so many Republicans believe in this? 40% don't believe he was born in the USA. Another 20% are unsure. Another 20% believe he was PROBABLY born here, but have expressed concerns. That is 80% of all Republicans who have at least some level of doubt! I admit to being stunned by these numbers. Here in California I know plenty of Republicans, and not one of them who I've mentioned this too take this issue seriously at all. But apparently millions do. Anyone want to theorize why this is so?

Excellent question Tim. I think because most Americans have a birth certificate which means entitlements to many Americans. They feel they are in the "club" and if Obama cannot produce a birth certificate they feel it gives them the right to cast judgement. Do all people in Hawaii not have birth certificates? I assume most if not all of them do have birth certificates. Do the Senators from Hawaii and their Reps all have birth certificates? Trump brought up a good point and that is Obama has spent $2 million on the issue...$2 million for Trump is chump change but for a supposive honest politician that has always made about $200,000 a year or thereabouts...spending $2 million on legal fees for birth right issues sounds pretty fishy and I would like to know more about it. Like anything Tim, if it is repeated enough and by enough people it becomes the "norm". Is Obamacare really called Obamacare? I don't think so but so many on the Right and with radio shows said it over and over again that this is what most Americans call it. Birth Certificates, Obamacare, Trump aligning himself with the Tea Party...this stuff will be front and center and they will have to get media coverage. And if th emedia is not careful they are going to get offended along the way. Crowley was getting slam dunked by Trump, he would not let her get a word in edge wise on him and I think most of the GOP candidates are gonna attack the media folks as well that try and get in their way. What I'm saying is Crowley/Crawley/Frankenstein whatever her name is she is an obvious Lefty and that middle 20% we speak of watches CNN a good bit and will see this interview and it's gonna make an impact Tim. Great question in the middle of this mess. Good way to get the thread back on track. -MOP

 

[timschochet]

OK, so I have a serious question here: why do the polls suggest that so many Republicans believe in this? 40% don't believe he was born in the USA. Another 20% are unsure. Another 20% believe he was PROBABLY born here, but have expressed concerns. That is 80% of all Republicans who have at least some level of doubt!

I admit to being stunned by these numbers. Here in California I know plenty of Republicans, and not one of them who I've mentioned this too take this issue seriously at all. But apparently millions do. Anyone want to theorize why this is so?

Excellent question Tim. I think because most Americans have a birth certificate which means entitlements to many Americans. They feel they are in the "club" and if Obama cannot produce a birth certificate they feel it gives them the right to cast judgement.

Do all people in Hawaii not have birth certificates? I assume most if not all of them do have birth certificates. Do the Senators from Hawaii and their Reps all have birth certificates? Trup brought up a good point and that is Obama has spent $2 million on the issue...$2 million for Trump is chump change but for a supposive honest politician that has alwaysmade about $200,000 a year or thereabouts...spending $2 million on legal fees for birth right issues sounds pretty fishy and I would like to know more about it.

Like anything Tim, if it is repeate enough and by enough people it becomes the "norm". Is Obamacare really called Obamacare? I don't think so but so many on the Right and with radio shows said it over and over again that this is what most Americans call it. Birth Certificates, Obamacare, Trump aligning himself with the Tea Party...this stuff will be front and center and they will have to get media coverage. And if th emedia is not careful they are going to get offended along the way. Crowley was getting slam dunked by Trump, he would not let her get a word in edge wise on him and I think most of the GOP candidates are gonna attack the media folks as well that try and get in their way. What I'm saying is Crowley/Crawley/Frankenstein whatever her name is she is an obvious Lefty and that middle 20% we speak of watches CNN a good bit and will see this interview and it's gonna make an impact Tim.

Great question in the middle of this mess. Good way to get the thread back on track.

-MOP

I have heard this "2 million" figure bandied about by several people and I still want to know where it comes from.

 

[timschochet]

More polling:

Four out of 10 American voters have some doubt that President Barack Obama was born in the United States, according to a recent FOX News poll.The survey also revealed that 24 percent of respondents outright believe that the President was born in another country. Speculation over Obama's birthplace has been reinvigorated in recent weeks as Donald Trump, a potential candidate for the 2012 Republican Presidential nomination, has publicly requested a copy of Obama's original long-form birth certificate.

As to be expected, the FOX News poll showed significant partisan differences. A total of 84 percent of Democratic participants and 69 percent of independents believe that Obama was born in America. Only 47 percent of Republican respondents think that the commander-in-chief is a natural-born citizen, compared to 44 percent of Tea Party supporters.

Despite the doubt surrounding Obama's birthplace, the survey indicated that the President would still hold up in a showdown with Trump. A total of 52 percent said they would vote for Obama, while 34 percent would back the business mogul.

Freshman Senator Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) told The Daily Caller that Trump's fame makes him a legitimate candidate. However, Rubio suggested that the reality TV star should back off the "birther" issue.

"I would suggest — if he asked for my opinion — not to focus so much on that issue. There are more important things facing our country," Rubio told the news outlet. "I believe Barack Obama was born in the United States of America. So why are we talking about this?"

 

[Bronco Billy]

The problem with this thread is that none of you Obama haters actually has the guts to come out and admit you don't believe he was born here.Sam QuentinBrock MiddletonBronco Billyjon_mx

Timmay, I have clearly stated my position several times that I believe that Obama was born in Hawaii. BTW - I don't hate Obama and would enjoy having a couple of beers with him while watching some basketball. I disagree with the predominance of his policies as well as his vision for this country.Go back to watching msnbcTIA

 

[timschochet]

So more than half of the Tea Partiers believe Obama was born in Kenya- and we're supposed to take them seriously?

 

[Bronco Billy]

So more than half of the Tea Partiers believe Obama was born in Kenya- and we're supposed to take them seriously?

More so than you.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Like anything Tim, if it is repeated enough and by enough people it becomes the "norm". Is Obamacare really called Obamacare? I don't think so but so many on the Right and with radio shows said it over and over again that this is what most Americans call it. Birth Certificates, Obamacare, Trump aligning himself with the Tea Party...this stuff will be front and center and they will have to get media coverage. And if th emedia is not careful they are going to get offended along the way. Crowley was getting slam dunked by Trump, he would not let her get a word in edge wise on him and I think most of the GOP candidates are gonna attack the media folks as well that try and get in their way. What I'm saying is Crowley/Crawley/Frankenstein whatever her name is she is an obvious Lefty and that middle 20% we speak of watches CNN a good bit and will see this interview and it's gonna make an impact Tim.

Great question in the middle of this mess. Good way to get the thread back on track.

-MOP

Anyone who watched that interview and thought that Trump "slam dunked" anything other than his own credibility isn't any part of the independent "20%".Why are you suddenly trying to cast yourself as an independent moderate MOP? Do you think we've all forgotten the posts you've written throughout the years that were full of republican soundbites?

 

[Jewell]

People don't want the truth anymore...they want out-of-context bits of information which help them to sleep at night by reinforcing their own world view and moral/religious convictions. People do not want the truth, nor do they seek the truth anymore. People want to be right or win...nothing more.

.... ain't that the truth!

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Like anything Tim, if it is repeated enough and by enough people it becomes the "norm". Is Obamacare really called Obamacare? I don't think so but so many on the Right and with radio shows said it over and over again that this is what most Americans call it. Birth Certificates, Obamacare, Trump aligning himself with the Tea Party...this stuff will be front and center and they will have to get media coverage. And if th emedia is not careful they are going to get offended along the way. Crowley was getting slam dunked by Trump, he would not let her get a word in edge wise on him and I think most of the GOP candidates are gonna attack the media folks as well that try and get in their way. What I'm saying is Crowley/Crawley/Frankenstein whatever her name is she is an obvious Lefty and that middle 20% we speak of watches CNN a good bit and will see this interview and it's gonna make an impact Tim.

Great question in the middle of this mess. Good way to get the thread back on track.

-MOP

Anyone who watched that interview and thought that Trump "slam dunked" anything other than his own credibility isn't any part of the independent "20%".Why are you suddenly trying to cast yourself as an independent moderate MOP? Do you think we've all forgotten the posts you've written throughout the years that were full of republican soundbites?

 

[tommyGunZ]

OK, so I have a serious question here: why do the polls suggest that so many Republicans believe in this? 40% don't believe he was born in the USA. Another 20% are unsure. Another 20% believe he was PROBABLY born here, but have expressed concerns. That is 80% of all Republicans who have at least some level of doubt!

I admit to being stunned by these numbers. Here in California I know plenty of Republicans, and not one of them who I've mentioned this too take this issue seriously at all. But apparently millions do. Anyone want to theorize why this is so?

Excellent question Tim. I think because most Americans have a birth certificate which means entitlements to many Americans. They feel they are in the "club" and if Obama cannot produce a birth certificate they feel it gives them the right to cast judgement.

Do all people in Hawaii not have birth certificates? I assume most if not all of them do have birth certificates. Do the Senators from Hawaii and their Reps all have birth certificates? Trup brought up a good point and that is Obama has spent $2 million on the issue...$2 million for Trump is chump change but for a supposive honest politician that has alwaysmade about $200,000 a year or thereabouts...spending $2 million on legal fees for birth right issues sounds pretty fishy and I would like to know more about it.

Like anything Tim, if it is repeate enough and by enough people it becomes the "norm". Is Obamacare really called Obamacare? I don't think so but so many on the Right and with radio shows said it over and over again that this is what most Americans call it. Birth Certificates, Obamacare, Trump aligning himself with the Tea Party...this stuff will be front and center and they will have to get media coverage. And if th emedia is not careful they are going to get offended along the way. Crowley was getting slam dunked by Trump, he would not let her get a word in edge wise on him and I think most of the GOP candidates are gonna attack the media folks as well that try and get in their way. What I'm saying is Crowley/Crawley/Frankenstein whatever her name is she is an obvious Lefty and that middle 20% we speak of watches CNN a good bit and will see this interview and it's gonna make an impact Tim.

Great question in the middle of this mess. Good way to get the thread back on track.

-MOP

I have heard this "2 million" figure bandied about by several people and I still want to know where it comes from.

Trump said it, so that's good enough for MOP. Certificates of live birth, newspaper clippings from the 60s, and statements from top Hawaiian officials who have seen Obama's birth certificate? Not good enough.

 

[timschochet]

The problem with this thread is that none of you Obama haters actually has the guts to come out and admit you don't believe he was born here.

Sam Quentin

Brock Middleton

Bronco Billy

jon_mx

Timmay, I have clearly stated my position several times that I believe that Obama was born in Hawaii.Go back to watching msnbc

TIA

Yes, you have made that your fallback position, which is rather cowardly, IMO, given some of your other statements in this thread. Here are a few of them:So much of his life is a con and thus why he has to protect his past so vigorously.

it seems highly likely that Obama was born at home rather than a hospital and simply did not have the documentation that he would have gotten under different circumstances with a hospital birth. It's probably why he had to create an alternatate identity utilizing a SS number that he couldn't have acquired through normal channels and why he keeps so many documents from his past hidden through every legal means in the book.

As it stands, the majority of the country thinks the problem is with him and not with the birthers.

I also can't help but think that if he actually does have it (the birth certificate) - which I doubt

That's just a very small sample from the last couple of days.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

More polling:

Four out of 10 American voters have some doubt that President Barack Obama was born in the United States, according to a recent FOX News poll.The survey also revealed that 24 percent of respondents outright believe that the President was born in another country. Speculation over Obama's birthplace has been reinvigorated in recent weeks as Donald Trump, a potential candidate for the 2012 Republican Presidential nomination, has publicly requested a copy of Obama's original long-form birth certificate.

As to be expected, the FOX News poll showed significant partisan differences. A total of 84 percent of Democratic participants and 69 percent of independents believe that Obama was born in America. Only 47 percent of Republican respondents think that the commander-in-chief is a natural-born citizen, compared to 44 percent of Tea Party supporters.

Despite the doubt surrounding Obama's birthplace, the survey indicated that the President would still hold up in a showdown with Trump. A total of 52 percent said they would vote for Obama, while 34 percent would back the business mogul.

Freshman Senator Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) told The Daily Caller that Trump's fame makes him a legitimate candidate. However, Rubio suggested that the reality TV star should back off the "birther" issue.

"I would suggest — if he asked for my opinion — not to focus so much on that issue. There are more important things facing our country," Rubio told the news outlet. "I believe Barack Obama was born in the United States of America. So why are we talking about this?"

How about this Tim? It is still a good 6 months from when this thing will start to heat up more..right now this issue for whatever reason gets them on TV over them talking out against foreign policy etc...so they continue on this path because the polls indicate that America has a fairly strong opinion about this. What is there to really get ecited about right now for most GOP supporters? The President has kept a majority of Bush policies in place and keeps talking about cleaning up a mess, even Cosby the other day right after Trump started using it as a crutch and excuse for the past 2.5 years. Seems like most on the Right would actually be happy with Obama and haven't seen much change happen at all.

 

[Bronco Billy]

The problem with this thread is that none of you Obama haters actually has the guts to come out and admit you don't believe he was born here.

Sam Quentin

Brock Middleton

Bronco Billy

jon_mx

Timmay, I have clearly stated my position several times that I believe that Obama was born in Hawaii.Go back to watching msnbc

TIA

Yes, you have made that your fallback position, which is rather cowardly, IMO, given some of your other statements in this thread. Here are a few of them:So much of his life is a con and thus why he has to protect his past so vigorously.

it seems highly likely that Obama was born at home rather than a hospital and simply did not have the documentation that he would have gotten under different circumstances with a hospital birth. It's probably why he had to create an alternatate identity utilizing a SS number that he couldn't have acquired through normal channels and why he keeps so many documents from his past hidden through every legal means in the book.

As it stands, the majority of the country thinks the problem is with him and not with the birthers.

I also can't help but think that if he actually does have it (the birth certificate) - which I doubt

That's just a very small sample from the last couple of days.

 

[Statorama]

Your position is worse, IMO, than anyone else's yet. There may be "passionate" arguments on both sides, but there are not reasonable arguments on both sides. There are the people that have no reason to doubt that Obama was born in the United States of America, and then there are the looney tunes. It is not an even playing field between the two.

This is the kind of incivility that I'm talking about. Do you really need to bring name calling and insults into the discussion in order to make your point?This is a perfect example of why we're in the mess we're in today. No one wants to hear the other side of the story. They just want to hear their side of the story tuned up to 11.If we're ever going to get anywhere as a human collective, we need to start hearing out other opinions. I have faith in Americans that if they hear both sides of the story they'll gravitate toward the truth. It's sad that after thousands of years of communications we're reduced to "looney tunes" as one of the bedrocks of an argument.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Like anything Tim, if it is repeated enough and by enough people it becomes the "norm". Is Obamacare really called Obamacare? I don't think so but so many on the Right and with radio shows said it over and over again that this is what most Americans call it. Birth Certificates, Obamacare, Trump aligning himself with the Tea Party...this stuff will be front and center and they will have to get media coverage. And if th emedia is not careful they are going to get offended along the way. Crowley was getting slam dunked by Trump, he would not let her get a word in edge wise on him and I think most of the GOP candidates are gonna attack the media folks as well that try and get in their way. What I'm saying is Crowley/Crawley/Frankenstein whatever her name is she is an obvious Lefty and that middle 20% we speak of watches CNN a good bit and will see this interview and it's gonna make an impact Tim.

Great question in the middle of this mess. Good way to get the thread back on track.

-MOP

Anyone who watched that interview and thought that Trump "slam dunked" anything other than his own credibility isn't any part of the independent "20%".Why are you suddenly trying to cast yourself as an independent moderate MOP? Do you think we've all forgotten the posts you've written throughout the years that were full of republican soundbites?

My gawd you sound like a battered housewife. Can you waive your hand and finger at me and repeat that post please?How did the Padres do in that double header the other night?

 

[timschochet]

Your position is worse, IMO, than anyone else's yet. There may be "passionate" arguments on both sides, but there are not reasonable arguments on both sides. There are the people that have no reason to doubt that Obama was born in the United States of America, and then there are the looney tunes. It is not an even playing field between the two.

This is the kind of incivility that I'm talking about. Do you really need to bring name calling and insults into the discussion in order to make your point?This is a perfect example of why we're in the mess we're in today. No one wants to hear the other side of the story. They just want to hear their side of the story tuned up to 11.If we're ever going to get anywhere as a human collective, we need to start hearing out other opinions. I have faith in Americans that if they hear both sides of the story they'll gravitate toward the truth. It's sad that after thousands of years of communications we're reduced to "looney tunes" as one of the bedrocks of an argument.

Statorama,Every aspect, and I mean EVERY aspect of the Birther nonsense has been researched and thouroughly debunked. If you want proof of this, you can read any of the following:1. Factcheck.org2. Wikipedia3. Every major news organization4. This threadIf, after all that, you still believe that there is another "side" that deserves legitimate attention, then you are either being willfully ignorant, or you are a looney tune. If that makes me uncivil, then so be it.

 

[Sam Quentin]

More polling:

Four out of 10 American voters have some doubt that President Barack Obama was born in the United States, according to a recent FOX News poll.The survey also revealed that 24 percent of respondents outright believe that the President was born in another country. Speculation over Obama's birthplace has been reinvigorated in recent weeks as Donald Trump, a potential candidate for the 2012 Republican Presidential nomination, has publicly requested a copy of Obama's original long-form birth certificate.

As to be expected, the FOX News poll showed significant partisan differences. A total of 84 percent of Democratic participants and 69 percent of independents believe that Obama was born in America. Only 47 percent of Republican respondents think that the commander-in-chief is a natural-born citizen, compared to 44 percent of Tea Party supporters.

Despite the doubt surrounding Obama's birthplace, the survey indicated that the President would still hold up in a showdown with Trump. A total of 52 percent said they would vote for Obama, while 34 percent would back the business mogul.

Freshman Senator Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) told The Daily Caller that Trump's fame makes him a legitimate candidate. However, Rubio suggested that the reality TV star should back off the "birther" issue.

"I would suggest — if he asked for my opinion — not to focus so much on that issue. There are more important things facing our country," Rubio told the news outlet. "I believe Barack Obama was born in the United States of America. So why are we talking about this?"

31% of the coveted independent voters don't even think he's eligible? That is a troubling number.And people still take the position that this "controversy" is helping him?

I would suggest that they are ignoring the mountain of evidence that is not helping.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Like anything Tim, if it is repeated enough and by enough people it becomes the "norm". Is Obamacare really called Obamacare? I don't think so but so many on the Right and with radio shows said it over and over again that this is what most Americans call it. Birth Certificates, Obamacare, Trump aligning himself with the Tea Party...this stuff will be front and center and they will have to get media coverage. And if th emedia is not careful they are going to get offended along the way. Crowley was getting slam dunked by Trump, he would not let her get a word in edge wise on him and I think most of the GOP candidates are gonna attack the media folks as well that try and get in their way. What I'm saying is Crowley/Crawley/Frankenstein whatever her name is she is an obvious Lefty and that middle 20% we speak of watches CNN a good bit and will see this interview and it's gonna make an impact Tim.

Great question in the middle of this mess. Good way to get the thread back on track.

-MOP

Anyone who watched that interview and thought that Trump "slam dunked" anything other than his own credibility isn't any part of the independent "20%".Why are you suddenly trying to cast yourself as an independent moderate MOP? Do you think we've all forgotten the posts you've written throughout the years that were full of republican soundbites?

My gawd you sound like a battered housewife. Can you waive your hand and finger at me and repeat that post please?How did the Padres do in that double header the other night?

Sorry, just very tired of well known republican posters trying to disguise the fact that they're GOPers by self identifying as moderate independents. Continue wearing your "independent" costume MOP - we all know you're a repub.Pads got worked on Saturday...but came back Sunday with an ***whooping. Only 2 games out of first with Latos coming back this week.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Or we could amend the constitution to get rid of the requirement that Presidents have to be born here.

Presidents don't have to be born "here" -- they just have to be natural born citizens. John McCain wasn't born here, neither was George Romney. And Obama probably wouldn't be facing all these questions if both of his parents had been U.S. citizens.

But he would be facing other questions equally as dumb. He would be accused of murder, or drugs, or rape, or embezzlement, or some other form of fraud. The source of this conspiracy is not the law nor the circumstances surrounding his birth.

 

[tommyGunZ]

More polling:

Four out of 10 American voters have some doubt that President Barack Obama was born in the United States, according to a recent FOX News poll.The survey also revealed that 24 percent of respondents outright believe that the President was born in another country. Speculation over Obama's birthplace has been reinvigorated in recent weeks as Donald Trump, a potential candidate for the 2012 Republican Presidential nomination, has publicly requested a copy of Obama's original long-form birth certificate.

As to be expected, the FOX News poll showed significant partisan differences. A total of 84 percent of Democratic participants and 69 percent of independents believe that Obama was born in America. Only 47 percent of Republican respondents think that the commander-in-chief is a natural-born citizen, compared to 44 percent of Tea Party supporters.

Despite the doubt surrounding Obama's birthplace, the survey indicated that the President would still hold up in a showdown with Trump. A total of 52 percent said they would vote for Obama, while 34 percent would back the business mogul.

Freshman Senator Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) told The Daily Caller that Trump's fame makes him a legitimate candidate. However, Rubio suggested that the reality TV star should back off the "birther" issue.

"I would suggest — if he asked for my opinion — not to focus so much on that issue. There are more important things facing our country," Rubio told the news outlet. "I believe Barack Obama was born in the United States of America. So why are we talking about this?"

31% of the coveted independent voters don't even think he's eligible? That is a troubling number.And people still take the position that this "controversy" is helping him?

I would suggest that they are ignoring the mountain of evidence that is not helping.

I'd be VERY surprised if that 31% was really "independent".

 

[Bronco Billy]

1. Factcheck.org2. Wikipedia3. Every major news organization4. This thread

Unimpeachable sources, every one!

 

[BigSteelThrill]

2000! posts.

 

[The Commish]

The problem with this thread is that none of you Obama haters actually has the guts to come out and admit you don't believe he was born here.Sam QuentinBrock MiddletonBronco Billyjon_mx

Timmay, I have clearly stated my position several times that I believe that Obama was born in Hawaii. BTW - I don't hate Obama and would enjoy having a couple of beers with him while watching some basketball. I disagree with the predominance of his policies as well as his vision for this country.Go back to watching msnbcTIA

So you're just dumping fuel on the birther fire for the hell of it?

 

[Sam Quentin]

More polling:

Four out of 10 American voters have some doubt that President Barack Obama was born in the United States, according to a recent FOX News poll.The survey also revealed that 24 percent of respondents outright believe that the President was born in another country. Speculation over Obama's birthplace has been reinvigorated in recent weeks as Donald Trump, a potential candidate for the 2012 Republican Presidential nomination, has publicly requested a copy of Obama's original long-form birth certificate.

As to be expected, the FOX News poll showed significant partisan differences. A total of 84 percent of Democratic participants and 69 percent of independents believe that Obama was born in America. Only 47 percent of Republican respondents think that the commander-in-chief is a natural-born citizen, compared to 44 percent of Tea Party supporters.

Despite the doubt surrounding Obama's birthplace, the survey indicated that the President would still hold up in a showdown with Trump. A total of 52 percent said they would vote for Obama, while 34 percent would back the business mogul.

Freshman Senator Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) told The Daily Caller that Trump's fame makes him a legitimate candidate. However, Rubio suggested that the reality TV star should back off the "birther" issue.

"I would suggest — if he asked for my opinion — not to focus so much on that issue. There are more important things facing our country," Rubio told the news outlet. "I believe Barack Obama was born in the United States of America. So why are we talking about this?"

31% of the coveted independent voters don't even think he's eligible? That is a troubling number.And people still take the position that this "controversy" is helping him?

I would suggest that they are ignoring the mountain of evidence that is not helping.

I'd be VERY surprised if that 31% was really "independent".

yes, it's all a vast conspiracy...

 

[Bronco Billy]

The problem with this thread is that none of you Obama haters actually has the guts to come out and admit you don't believe he was born here.Sam QuentinBrock MiddletonBronco Billyjon_mx

Timmay, I have clearly stated my position several times that I believe that Obama was born in Hawaii. BTW - I don't hate Obama and would enjoy having a couple of beers with him while watching some basketball. I disagree with the predominance of his policies as well as his vision for this country.Go back to watching msnbcTIA

So you're just dumping fuel on the birther fire for the hell of it?

Again, I've explained my position carefully and exactly.

 

[Statorama]

Statorama,Every aspect, and I mean EVERY aspect of the Birther nonsense has been researched and thouroughly debunked. If you want proof of this, you can read any of the following:1. Factcheck.org2. Wikipedia3. Every major news organization4. This threadIf, after all that, you still believe that there is another "side" that deserves legitimate attention, then you are either being willfully ignorant, or you are a looney tune. If that makes me uncivil, then so be it.

I've posted several times that factcheck is simply an arm of the Obama campaign. Wikipedia is famously open to "modifications" to present one side of the story over another. The definition of "every" major news organization is open for discussion. I've heard some rather cogent arguments for both sides in this thread, and I appreciate hearing all opinions.Look, very little (if anything) can be done about Obama's origin of birth at this point. It is what it is. If he was born in Hawaii, no harm no foul. If he was born elsewhere, the investigation is warranted. If nothing else, it exposes a hole in the vetting process for our candidates. I'd like them to take steps to ensure this kind of divisive argument never happens again.Finally, the "willfully ignorant" stuff is beneath you Tim. It really is. It does not pain me at all to say you're better than that. I hope that upon reflection, you'll also believe that about yourself.

 

[the moops]

I've posted several times that factcheck is simply an arm of the Obama campaign.

Well, if you've posted that several times, it must be true.