The Birther Conspiracy Thread (1 Viewer)

[jon_mx]

Crazy isn't the idea of one person filing a document claiming birth for their son or grandson. Crazy is wanting SO BADLY for something to be true that one will do anything and everything they possibly can to exhaust their potential for finding said truth. And then when the truth they seek simply isn't there?! They rally/regroup with a war cry of "well, they haven't proven it's NOT true either."

We both know there is a 99% chance that the definitive proof (either way) you are seeking was lost/discarded decades ago. You take the position that means Obama is lying and/or up to no good. The rest of us take that to mean that the records you are seeking were lost/discarded decades ago. Just like if you asked me to locate my original birth certificate, I couldn't do it. I have a passport, but I couldn't locate my original birth certificate before I got that passport approved before going to Japan...and then renewed before going to Italy. Does that mean I'm lying about ever having an "original" birth certificate, however? Am I up to some sinister plan to destroy the world?

Okay, crazy is a poor choice of words. Rather, it's a combination of hope, hatred, and/or some perverse love-child of the two. Kind of like if I tell you that unicorns are real. You ask me to produce proof. I provide 30 theories for where they live, where they've lived, why no unicorn remains have ever been found, why no photos/video of unicorns are available as "proof" that haven't been proven as fakes, et al. You continue to ask "where's the proof?!" and when I can't produce it and don't know how to prove it, I get the warm, fuzzy blanket of "you haven't proven unicorns AREN'T real either!" to protect my psyche.

Kind of like all the guys on this board who think I'm cuckoo for cocoa puffs because of my supposed experiences with ghosts and demons, eh?! I know it's true because of what I believe and have experienced. Not a shadow of a doubt in my mind. You ask for proof. About the best I can do is try and describe experiences that don't seem to have explanation...experiences that my wife, daughters, neighbor, sister, niece, etc. have shared, which is about the equivalent (to you) of me producing some nice "CG" of a unicorn. I eventually give up, since you're not going to be convinced that ghosts/demons exist...and wrap myself in that warm, fuzzy blanket of "well, if he could walk a mile in my shoes, he might see things differently" (AKA go ahead and prove me wrong).

Trust me, I get it. From both sides of the coin! Only Obama was born in Hawai'i...and ghosts/demons exist. Unicorns? Show me proof...lol.

No, I don't know there is a 99% chance the information has been lost. I am pretty sure states keep pretty good records especially in this day and age. And I really don't care if it is true or not. I don't think it will change anything. I just hate when people put people down and insult them when there is a legitimate point being made. I will stand up for it. Some of them are crazy pushing ideas for money, but most people just want to know and they have that right. I can't stand how the media demonizes tea partiers and birthers. I find it disgusting.

 

[datonn]

No, I don't know there is a 99% chance the information has been lost. I am pretty sure states keep pretty good records especially in this day and age. And I really don't care if it is true or not. I don't think it will change anything. I just hate when people put people down and insult them when there is a legitimate point being made. I will stand up for it. Some of them are crazy pushing ideas for money, but most people just want to know and they have that right. I can't stand how the media demonizes tea partiers and birthers. I find it disgusting.

But you do understand why the media (at least MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC and maybe CNN) mock and "demonize" birthers, don't you? Because Birthers never once questioned the American citizenship of Republican nominee John McCain, who was born in the Panama Canal Zone, never asked to see a copy of his birth certificate. Never asked to see the birth certificate of any of the other candidates for POTUS, to my knowledge. Nor, to my knowledge, have they asked to see the birth certificates of any of the 2012 candidates for POTUS (though on that point I could definitely be wrong...I just haven't heard about them doing it).It is a partisan smear. It's not about whether our nation's POTUS alumni and candidates for said position have produced appropriate documentation, were appropriately vetted, etc. It is about whether this PARTICULAR POTUS produced appropriate documentation, was appropriately vetted, etc. Which marginalizes their message. Completely marginalizes their message. Add in posters of Obama with a Hitler mustache, Obama drawn as a monkey, Obama called a Muslim (thereby offending what, over 1 billion Muslims in the world in the process, since it is being used as a derogatory comment)? You move from the margins to a mainstream laughingstock.

Seriously, if Birthers were truly after what they say they are after, EVERY candidate for POTUS in 2008, and every candidate for POTUS going forward, would need to produce the documentation they are asking of Obama. Although a year or two after the fact, even that would ring a little hollow.

 

[jon_mx]

No, I don't know there is a 99% chance the information has been lost. I am pretty sure states keep pretty good records especially in this day and age. And I really don't care if it is true or not. I don't think it will change anything. I just hate when people put people down and insult them when there is a legitimate point being made. I will stand up for it. Some of them are crazy pushing ideas for money, but most people just want to know and they have that right. I can't stand how the media demonizes tea partiers and birthers. I find it disgusting.

But you do understand why the media (at least MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC and maybe CNN) mock and "demonize" birthers, don't you? Because Birthers never once questioned the American citizenship of Republican nominee John McCain, who was born in the Panama Canal Zone, never asked to see a copy of his birth certificate. Never asked to see the birth certificate of any of the other candidates for POTUS, to my knowledge. Nor, to my knowledge, have they asked to see the birth certificates of any of the 2012 candidates for POTUS (though on that point I could definitely be wrong...I just haven't heard about them doing it).It is a partisan smear. It's not about whether our nation's POTUS alumni and candidates for said position have produced appropriate documentation, were appropriately vetted, etc. It is about whether this PARTICULAR POTUS produced appropriate documentation, was appropriately vetted, etc. Which marginalizes their message. Completely marginalizes their message. Add in posters of Obama with a Hitler mustache, Obama drawn as a monkey, Obama called a Muslim (thereby offending what, over 1 billion Muslims in the world in the process, since it is being used as a derogatory comment)? You move from the margins to a mainstream laughingstock.

Seriously, if Birthers were truly after what they say they are after, EVERY candidate for POTUS in 2008, and every candidate for POTUS going forward, would need to produce the documentation they are asking of Obama. Although a year or two after the fact, even that would ring a little hollow.

Birthers are just average citizens, they are not going to go out of their way to attack the candidate they back. The real hypocrites are the media whose job it is to be an honest broker of the news. There were many who raised the McCain issue, but laugh at those who raise it about Obama. Besides, the fact that both McCain's parents were US citizen negates any location where McCain was born. And the fact he was serving in the military at the time, makes it almost unAmerican to try to hold that against him even if the law did not favor him. Depending on the exact circumstances surrounding Obama, there is a chance on a technicality he is not considered a natural born citizen.And I have no problem putting in a process which verifies the Constitutional requirements are met. We don't have one now.

 

[datonn]

Birthers are just average citizens, they are not going to go out of their way to attack the candidate they back. The real hypocrites are the media whose job it is to be an honest broker of the news. There were many who raised the McCain issue, but laugh at those who raise it about Obama. Besides, the fact that both McCain's parents were US citizen negates any location where McCain was born. And the fact he was serving in the military at the time, makes it almost unAmerican to try to hold that against him even if the law did not favor him. Depending on the exact circumstances surrounding Obama, there is a chance on a technicality he is not considered a natural born citizen.

Aah...but on that bolded statement, can you PROVE to me, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that both of John McCain's parents were, in fact, American citizens?! And find me the doctors/nurses that delivered them to tell us all about remembering Mr. and Mrs. McCain popping out of the womb. What? They're all dead?! Well now isn't that an "interesting coincidence..." See, we can play this game all day. And it will get us precisely nowhere. Yet two years later, the birthers are still at it...saying all they want is the truth. The truth is Barack Obama is your/their POTUS for at least another 20+ months...so rather than draw him as a monkey or piss off about 20% of the world's population by calling Obama 3/5ths of a human for the religion of his Father, maybe find something a little more productive to do with your/their time?!

 

[jon_mx]

Birthers are just average citizens, they are not going to go out of their way to attack the candidate they back. The real hypocrites are the media whose job it is to be an honest broker of the news. There were many who raised the McCain issue, but laugh at those who raise it about Obama. Besides, the fact that both McCain's parents were US citizen negates any location where McCain was born. And the fact he was serving in the military at the time, makes it almost unAmerican to try to hold that against him even if the law did not favor him. Depending on the exact circumstances surrounding Obama, there is a chance on a technicality he is not considered a natural born citizen.

Aah...but on that bolded statement, can you PROVE to me, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that both of John McCain's parents were, in fact, American citizens?! See, we can play this game all day. And it will get us precisely nowhere. Yet two years later, the birthers are still at it...saying all they want is the truth. The truth is Barack Obama is your/their POTUS for at least another 20+ months...so rather than draw him as a monkey or piss off about 20% of the world's population by calling Obama 3/5ths of a human for the religion of his Father, maybe find something a little more productive to do with you/their time?!

Storm Honolulu and take the birth certificate by force?

 

[mad sweeney]

No, I don't know there is a 99% chance the information has been lost. I am pretty sure states keep pretty good records especially in this day and age. And I really don't care if it is true or not. I don't think it will change anything. I just hate when people put people down and insult them when there is a legitimate point being made. I will stand up for it. Some of them are crazy pushing ideas for money, but most people just want to know and they have that right. I can't stand how the media demonizes tea partiers and birthers. I find it disgusting.

But you do understand why the media (at least MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC and maybe CNN) mock and "demonize" birthers, don't you? Because Birthers never once questioned the American citizenship of Republican nominee John McCain, who was born in the Panama Canal Zone, never asked to see a copy of his birth certificate. Never asked to see the birth certificate of any of the other candidates for POTUS, to my knowledge. Nor, to my knowledge, have they asked to see the birth certificates of any of the 2012 candidates for POTUS (though on that point I could definitely be wrong...I just haven't heard about them doing it).It is a partisan smear. It's not about whether our nation's POTUS alumni and candidates for said position have produced appropriate documentation, were appropriately vetted, etc. It is about whether this PARTICULAR POTUS produced appropriate documentation, was appropriately vetted, etc. Which marginalizes their message. Completely marginalizes their message. Add in posters of Obama with a Hitler mustache, Obama drawn as a monkey, Obama called a Muslim (thereby offending what, over 1 billion Muslims in the world in the process, since it is being used as a derogatory comment)? You move from the margins to a mainstream laughingstock.

Seriously, if Birthers were truly after what they say they are after, EVERY candidate for POTUS in 2008, and every candidate for POTUS going forward, would need to produce the documentation they are asking of Obama. Although a year or two after the fact, even that would ring a little hollow.

Birthers are just average citizens, they are not going to go out of their way to attack the candidate they back. The real hypocrites are the media whose job it is to be an honest broker of the news. There were many who raised the McCain issue, but laugh at those who raise it about Obama. Besides, the fact that both McCain's parents were US citizen negates any location where McCain was born. And the fact he was serving in the military at the time, makes it almost unAmerican to try to hold that against him even if the law did not favor him. Depending on the exact circumstances surrounding Obama, there is a chance on a technicality he is not considered a natural born citizen.And I have no problem putting in a process which verifies the Constitutional requirements are met. We don't have one now.

Not to Trump and many of your nutjob ilk, er I mean fellow birthers, that claim an NBC has to be born in this country. And cudos to your repeated use of vile. Really sticks home your point!

CANARD

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Can we all at least admit that his white half was born in Hawaii?

 

[datonn]

Can we all at least admit that his white half was born in Hawaii?

Maybe, MAYBE they'll give you Obama's "white half" being born in Hawai'i if that "white half" is also the Christian half as well. If any of his "Muslim half" is mixed in with his "white half" though, I'm afraid we're in for another 50 pages.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I'm just surprised that his Muslim half hasn't tried to hijack Air Force One by now.

 

[timschochet]

Of all people Ann Coulter brings reason and rationality:

"Now we will have a chance to find out this is Donald Trump's Pierre Salinger moment. You can't believe everything you read on the internet. Obama has produced his birth certificate. There were announcements that ran in two contemporaneous Hawaiian newspapers at the time. The head of the Hawaiian records has announced 'I've seen the long form you all wanted.' I don't know why the long form is considered more credible than the short form they're both from the same office. The State Department accepts the short form or as we call it the birth certificate,"

 

[TobiasFunke]

And here's another question- the newspaper announcements were from what, just afew days later? If they weren't in Hawaii when Obama was born, how the heck did they get there fast enough to file paperwork with the state in time for it to be processed and then make it into whatever notification system you think the newspapers had to receive such notices?

Even your story, which you claim is "reasonable," would require a woman who has just given birth to hop on a plane almost immediately afterwards, fly with a days-old newborn to the island state of Hawaii (a few hours from anywhere else on earth), and file paperwork in a state office which requires no documentation whatsoever to certify that the claimed in-state birth actually occurred? Either that or they, what, enlist grandma to go to it via long-distance call from wherever it is baby Barack was just born? And the state accepts such undocumented filings from relatives not in the immediate family, of course? And of course, whoever filed the paperwork would have to know in advance that no such documentation was required by the state office, otherwise they risk being charged with defrauding the government just to establish baby Barack's citizenship.

You see how maybe that's not that reasonable? Especially when there's a perfectly reasonable explanation that fits 99.99999999% of all other birth announcements and state-issued documents

No it does not. There are several possible alternatives. Maybe Obama was born on April 4th and not August 4th. Maybe mom phoned or telegraphed or mailed her mom about the birth and grandma took it upon herself to file for them. It is not the most likely scenario, but I have yet to see anyone sink this possibility. I still don't see anything that blows it out of the water.

Didn't you say that there were reasonable, non-conspiracy theories that would explain it? You've got someone in Barack Obama's family knowingly defrauding the government of Hawaii, which they are able to do because of their intimate knowledge of the paperwork requirements for Hawaii birth certificates. That seems reasonable and non-conspiratorial to you?

 

[jon_mx]

I call your right-wing loon and raise you a left-wing looon:

Chris Matthews: "If it exists, why not put it out?"

 

[Brock Middlebrook]

Oh, there's a source all right. I just googled it. First there is a report from an online newspaper called the Tampa Bay Tribune which appears to be virulently anti-Obama. The source then reduces the amount to a million dollars, and then says the figure comes from a study launched by the "United States Justice Foundation". So I googled them- a 501 group closely affiliated with- you guessed it- WorldNetDaily.

This should clear it all up.

WTH dude

that's some freaky ####...

Eric Holder’s Department of Justice continues to deploy taxpayer funded attorneys around the country to file dismissals on behalf of Obama, denying all American citizens access to the courts as a peaceful remedy, which only fuels the fire of discontent and the questions about Obama persist.

http://rasica.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/flags_poster_civil_war_lg1.jpg?w=300

 

[jon_mx]

Millions of people defraud the government everyday. Kids make fake government IDs to get into bars. Illegals have fake SS Numbers to collect wages. People submit unemployment claims despite making cash under the table. People inflate their charity donations on their tax filings. I don't see why it is outlandish to think a poor mother or concerned grandma might submit paperwork so a child could get health benefits.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Millions of people defraud the government everyday. Kids make fake government IDs to get into bars. Illegals have fake SS Numbers to collect wages. People submit unemployment claims despite making cash under the table. People inflate their charity donations on their tax filings. I don't see why it is outlandish to think a poor mother or concerned grandma might submit paperwork so a child could get health benefits.

Those people know that they are likely to not get caught and that the benefits would be substantial. Neither of those would have been the case here.You are assuming not just that someone in the Obama family defrauded the government, but that they had previous knowledge of the Hawaii requirements for registering a birth for some weird reason, because otherwise they'd have no reason to think they could get away with it. Do you know the requirements for registering a birth in your home state? I'm guessing not.And we haven't even gotten into the fact that you haven't suggested an alternate narrative- if they weren't in Hawaii, where were they? Why were they there? His parents met in Hawaii, his mother was American, and it was 1961, when people didn't just hop planes on a whim, especially while pregnant. Maybe you just have a different definition of "reasonable" than the rest of the English-speaking population of planet Earth. That's fine, I guess. But please, carry on trying to explain to me how this theory of yours is reasonable. I'm enjoying it.

 

[NMYMND]

Washington Post Fact Checker Column Weighs In

 

[Heavy B]

No, I don't know there is a 99% chance the information has been lost. I am pretty sure states keep pretty good records especially in this day and age. And I really don't care if it is true or not. I don't think it will change anything. I just hate when people put people down and insult them when there is a legitimate point being made. I will stand up for it. Some of them are crazy pushing ideas for money, but most people just want to know and they have that right. I can't stand how the media demonizes tea partiers and birthers. I find it disgusting.

But you do understand why the media (at least MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC and maybe CNN) mock and "demonize" birthers, don't you? Because Birthers never once questioned the American citizenship of Republican nominee John McCain, who was born in the Panama Canal Zone, never asked to see a copy of his birth certificate. Never asked to see the birth certificate of any of the other candidates for POTUS, to my knowledge. Nor, to my knowledge, have they asked to see the birth certificates of any of the 2012 candidates for POTUS (though on that point I could definitely be wrong...I just haven't heard about them doing it).It is a partisan smear. It's not about whether our nation's POTUS alumni and candidates for said position have produced appropriate documentation, were appropriately vetted, etc. It is about whether this PARTICULAR POTUS produced appropriate documentation, was appropriately vetted, etc. Which marginalizes their message. Completely marginalizes their message. Add in posters of Obama with a Hitler mustache, Obama drawn as a monkey, Obama called a Muslim (thereby offending what, over 1 billion Muslims in the world in the process, since it is being used as a derogatory comment)? You move from the margins to a mainstream laughingstock.

Seriously, if Birthers were truly after what they say they are after, EVERY candidate for POTUS in 2008, and every candidate for POTUS going forward, would need to produce the documentation they are asking of Obama. Although a year or two after the fact, even that would ring a little hollow.

Neither the media nor the birthers had any reason to question McCain's citizenship. McCain presented his credentials to the United States Senate in April 2008, and the Senate resolved unanimously that he was a United States Citizen. So where is the partisan smear? Questions surrounded the citizenship of both candidates. One of them brought his records to the open Senate. The other one has done nothing substantive to resolve the controversy. I don't think it would be a bad idea to have all the candidates subject themselves to review prior to entering the campaign.

The whole monkey/mustache/Muslim thing is a big reach; you appear to be attempting to make those things a corelative bridge between your conclusions regarding who has sought whose documentation (and why / why not) and your conclusion that birthers have "move[d] from the margins to a mainstream laughingstock." I don't get it. Are you implying that the birthers view Obama as a Hitler / primate / Muslim? I'm not suggesting that I buy the birther premise, but the birthers I've talked to (I know; entirely anecdotal) don't stake their claims on a racial basis (though some of them are concerned that he is lying about his religion).

The Hitler comparison is somewhat on target, isn't it? Hitler was a national socialist. Obama appears to be a national socialist. But I think the comparison essentially ends there (though the accusation of embracing national socialism is awfully pernicious in itself).

Latest Major Action: 4/30/2008 Passed/agreed to in Senate. Status: Resolution agreed to in Senate without amendment and with a preamble by Unanimous Consent.

Thomas.gov

 

[timschochet]

The Hitler comparison is somewhat on target, isn't it? Hitler was a national socialist. Obama appears to be a national socialist.

Say what?

 

[TobiasFunke]

No, I don't know there is a 99% chance the information has been lost. I am pretty sure states keep pretty good records especially in this day and age. And I really don't care if it is true or not. I don't think it will change anything. I just hate when people put people down and insult them when there is a legitimate point being made. I will stand up for it. Some of them are crazy pushing ideas for money, but most people just want to know and they have that right. I can't stand how the media demonizes tea partiers and birthers. I find it disgusting.

But you do understand why the media (at least MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC and maybe CNN) mock and "demonize" birthers, don't you? Because Birthers never once questioned the American citizenship of Republican nominee John McCain, who was born in the Panama Canal Zone, never asked to see a copy of his birth certificate. Never asked to see the birth certificate of any of the other candidates for POTUS, to my knowledge. Nor, to my knowledge, have they asked to see the birth certificates of any of the 2012 candidates for POTUS (though on that point I could definitely be wrong...I just haven't heard about them doing it).It is a partisan smear. It's not about whether our nation's POTUS alumni and candidates for said position have produced appropriate documentation, were appropriately vetted, etc. It is about whether this PARTICULAR POTUS produced appropriate documentation, was appropriately vetted, etc. Which marginalizes their message. Completely marginalizes their message. Add in posters of Obama with a Hitler mustache, Obama drawn as a monkey, Obama called a Muslim (thereby offending what, over 1 billion Muslims in the world in the process, since it is being used as a derogatory comment)? You move from the margins to a mainstream laughingstock.

Seriously, if Birthers were truly after what they say they are after, EVERY candidate for POTUS in 2008, and every candidate for POTUS going forward, would need to produce the documentation they are asking of Obama. Although a year or two after the fact, even that would ring a little hollow.

Neither the media nor the birthers had any reason to question McCain's citizenship. McCain presented his credentials to the United States Senate in April 2008, and the Senate resolved unanimously that he was a United States Citizen. So where is the partisan smear? Questions surrounded the citizenship of both candidates. One of them brought his records to the open Senate. The other one has done nothing substantive to resolve the controversy. I don't think it would be a bad idea to have all the candidates subject themselves to review prior to entering the campaign.

The whole monkey/mustache/Muslim thing is a big reach; you appear to be attempting to make those things a corelative bridge between your conclusions regarding who has sought whose documentation (and why / why not) and your conclusion that birthers have "move[d] from the margins to a mainstream laughingstock." I don't get it. Are you implying that the birthers view Obama as a Hitler / primate / Muslim? I'm not suggesting that I buy the birther premise, but the birthers I've talked to (I know; entirely anecdotal) don't stake their claims on a racial basis (though some of them are concerned that he is lying about his religion).

The Hitler comparison is somewhat on target, isn't it? Hitler was a national socialist. Obama appears to be a national socialist. But I think the comparison essentially ends there (though the accusation of embracing national socialism is awfully pernicious in itself).

Latest Major Action: 4/30/2008 Passed/agreed to in Senate. Status: Resolution agreed to in Senate without amendment and with a preamble by Unanimous Consent.

Thomas.gov

A latecome makes a very strong case that he should be part of the discussion in the Pickles Power Rankings. Is he the Birther Thread equivalent of UConn's 2010-11 basketball squad, or merely a flash in the pan? Time will tell.

 

[Statorama]

Neither the media nor the birthers had any reason to question McCain's citizenship. McCain presented his credentials to the United States Senate in April 2008, and the Senate resolved unanimously that he was a United States Citizen. So where is the partisan smear? Questions surrounded the citizenship of both candidates. One of them brought his records to the open Senate. The other one has done nothing substantive to resolve the controversy. I don't think it would be a bad idea to have all the candidates subject themselves to review prior to entering the campaign.

This entire situation has exposed a hole in our vetting process for the candidates. Let's clean up this loophole so that it will never be an issue again.

 

[Brock Middlebrook]

No, I don't know there is a 99% chance the information has been lost. I am pretty sure states keep pretty good records especially in this day and age. And I really don't care if it is true or not. I don't think it will change anything. I just hate when people put people down and insult them when there is a legitimate point being made. I will stand up for it. Some of them are crazy pushing ideas for money, but most people just want to know and they have that right. I can't stand how the media demonizes tea partiers and birthers. I find it disgusting.

But you do understand why the media (at least MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC and maybe CNN) mock and "demonize" birthers, don't you? Because Birthers never once questioned the American citizenship of Republican nominee John McCain, who was born in the Panama Canal Zone, never asked to see a copy of his birth certificate. Never asked to see the birth certificate of any of the other candidates for POTUS, to my knowledge. Nor, to my knowledge, have they asked to see the birth certificates of any of the 2012 candidates for POTUS (though on that point I could definitely be wrong...I just haven't heard about them doing it).It is a partisan smear. It's not about whether our nation's POTUS alumni and candidates for said position have produced appropriate documentation, were appropriately vetted, etc. It is about whether this PARTICULAR POTUS produced appropriate documentation, was appropriately vetted, etc. Which marginalizes their message. Completely marginalizes their message. Add in posters of Obama with a Hitler mustache, Obama drawn as a monkey, Obama called a Muslim (thereby offending what, over 1 billion Muslims in the world in the process, since it is being used as a derogatory comment)? You move from the margins to a mainstream laughingstock.

Seriously, if Birthers were truly after what they say they are after, EVERY candidate for POTUS in 2008, and every candidate for POTUS going forward, would need to produce the documentation they are asking of Obama. Although a year or two after the fact, even that would ring a little hollow.

You live in your parents' basement, right?

 

[Road Dogg]

Didn't the house unanimously vote to acknowledge that Obama was born in HAwaii as well?

 

[Mr. Pickles]

No, I don't know there is a 99% chance the information has been lost. I am pretty sure states keep pretty good records especially in this day and age. And I really don't care if it is true or not. I don't think it will change anything. I just hate when people put people down and insult them when there is a legitimate point being made. I will stand up for it. Some of them are crazy pushing ideas for money, but most people just want to know and they have that right. I can't stand how the media demonizes tea partiers and birthers. I find it disgusting.

But you do understand why the media (at least MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC and maybe CNN) mock and "demonize" birthers, don't you? Because Birthers never once questioned the American citizenship of Republican nominee John McCain, who was born in the Panama Canal Zone, never asked to see a copy of his birth certificate. Never asked to see the birth certificate of any of the other candidates for POTUS, to my knowledge. Nor, to my knowledge, have they asked to see the birth certificates of any of the 2012 candidates for POTUS (though on that point I could definitely be wrong...I just haven't heard about them doing it).It is a partisan smear. It's not about whether our nation's POTUS alumni and candidates for said position have produced appropriate documentation, were appropriately vetted, etc. It is about whether this PARTICULAR POTUS produced appropriate documentation, was appropriately vetted, etc. Which marginalizes their message. Completely marginalizes their message. Add in posters of Obama with a Hitler mustache, Obama drawn as a monkey, Obama called a Muslim (thereby offending what, over 1 billion Muslims in the world in the process, since it is being used as a derogatory comment)? You move from the margins to a mainstream laughingstock.

Seriously, if Birthers were truly after what they say they are after, EVERY candidate for POTUS in 2008, and every candidate for POTUS going forward, would need to produce the documentation they are asking of Obama. Although a year or two after the fact, even that would ring a little hollow.

Neither the media nor the birthers had any reason to question McCain's citizenship. McCain presented his credentials to the United States Senate in April 2008, and the Senate resolved unanimously that he was a United States Citizen. So where is the partisan smear? Questions surrounded the citizenship of both candidates. One of them brought his records to the open Senate. The other one has done nothing substantive to resolve the controversy. I don't think it would be a bad idea to have all the candidates subject themselves to review prior to entering the campaign.

The whole monkey/mustache/Muslim thing is a big reach; you appear to be attempting to make those things a corelative bridge between your conclusions regarding who has sought whose documentation (and why / why not) and your conclusion that birthers have "move[d] from the margins to a mainstream laughingstock." I don't get it. Are you implying that the birthers view Obama as a Hitler / primate / Muslim? I'm not suggesting that I buy the birther premise, but the birthers I've talked to (I know; entirely anecdotal) don't stake their claims on a racial basis (though some of them are concerned that he is lying about his religion).

The Hitler comparison is somewhat on target, isn't it? Hitler was a national socialist. Obama appears to be a national socialist. But I think the comparison essentially ends there (though the accusation of embracing national socialism is awfully pernicious in itself).

Latest Major Action: 4/30/2008 Passed/agreed to in Senate. Status: Resolution agreed to in Senate without amendment and with a preamble by Unanimous Consent.

Thomas.gov

Looks like we have a young upstart looking to make a name for himself. New rankings will be out next week, but I'd keep on eye on this one.

 

[Statorama]

Looks like we have a young upstart looking to make a name for himself. New rankings will be out next week, but I'd keep on eye on this one.

 

[the moops]

Perhaps we should listen to Palin herself.

“You can file a frivolous ethics charge, and many were filed against me, and I won all of them, but it doesn’t cost the person who is filing them anything. They can just make something up, and in fact they did make a lot of things up,” she said on Mark Levin’s syndicated tadio show in 2009. “So it was over half a million dollars in legal fees that I was accumulating to defend against frivolous lawsuits that were getting thrown out one by one.”

 

[Brock Middlebrook]

Perhaps we should listen to Palin herself.

“You can file a frivolous ethics charge, and many were filed against me, and I won all of them, but it doesn’t cost the person who is filing them anything. They can just make something up, and in fact they did make a lot of things up,” she said on Mark Levin’s syndicated tadio show in 2009. “So it was over half a million dollars in legal fees that I was accumulating to defend against frivolous lawsuits that were getting thrown out one by one.”

If only there was an innocuous document whose release she could have authorized as an alternative...lmfaogreat analaogy....NOT...

 

[tommyGunZ]

Perhaps we should listen to Palin herself.

“You can file a frivolous ethics charge, and many were filed against me, and I won all of them, but it doesn’t cost the person who is filing them anything. They can just make something up, and in fact they did make a lot of things up,” she said on Mark Levin’s syndicated tadio show in 2009. “So it was over half a million dollars in legal fees that I was accumulating to defend against frivolous lawsuits that were getting thrown out one by one.”

If only there was an innocuous document whoe release she could have authorized as an alternative...lmfao

Your megaphone is bright orange. Kudos.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

The more you look into this the more reason there is to be skeptical of the whole thing. $2 million in legal fees folks. You don't need to hide. My name is MOP, I'm an independent moderate, and I have doubts.

 

[datonn]

Neither the media nor the birthers had any reason to question McCain's citizenship. McCain presented his credentials to the United States Senate in April 2008, and the Senate resolved unanimously that he was a United States Citizen. So where is the partisan smear? Questions surrounded the citizenship of both candidates. One of them brought his records to the open Senate. The other one has done nothing substantive to resolve the controversy.

I don't think it would be a bad idea to have all the candidates subject themselves to review prior to entering the campaign.

The whole monkey/mustache/Muslim thing is a big reach; you appear to be attempting to make those things a corelative bridge between your conclusions regarding who has sought whose documentation (and why / why not) and your conclusion that birthers have "move[d] from the margins to a mainstream laughingstock." I don't get it. Are you implying that the birthers view Obama as a Hitler / primate / Muslim? I'm not suggesting that I buy the birther premise, but the birthers I've talked to (I know; entirely anecdotal) don't stake their claims on a racial basis (though some of them are concerned that he is lying about his religion).

The Hitler comparison is somewhat on target, isn't it? Hitler was a national socialist. Obama appears to be a national socialist. But I think the comparison essentially ends there (though the accusation of embracing national socialism is awfully pernicious in itself).

Latest Major Action: 4/30/2008 Passed/agreed to in Senate. Status: Resolution agreed to in Senate without amendment and with a preamble by Unanimous Consent.

Thomas.gov

So McCain presented his credentials. Did he present his parents' credentials...since a big part of his claim/case would have hinged upon both of them being American citizens?! Joking of course, but you hopefully get the point. John McCain presents his "credentials" to a body he has been a member of for 2,000 years...to a group of people who might need to have to work with him to get anything done if he wins the election for POTUS, and they pass a resolution because 90+ percent of them couldn't present any more detailed credentials than he did.As to the rest, of course "not all Birthers" are ANYTHING! No more than all professional athletes are skirt-chasing ######-bags or all Catholics support child molestation. The world is gray...not black and white. Heck, if there is a better modern example than Barack Hussein Obama not being "black" or "white," I'd like to hear it. There are very few absolutes in the real world. If the Birthers want to be taken seriously, however, they'll "police their own" and crack the minority of loons out there who A-R-E pursuing this for purposes of racial and/or religious bigotry in their collective skulls. But they won't. Not if they see the potential for political/financial/??? gain as a result. It's not just the Republicans either. Heck, Hillary Clinton was as guilty of it as anyone when she had that pregnant pause during the 2008 primaries talking about Obama's citizenship/religion in terms of "....as far as I know." AKA "That's what Obama says, so I have to take him at his word (even though I'll gain a point or two in the polls if I can figure out a way to plant seeds of doubt about it in the 1-2% of sheep who are especially impressionable)."

A bit like Senator Jon Kyl's Lies About Planned Parenthood "Not Intended to be Factual Statement," no?!

 

[Brock Middlebrook]

Neither the media nor the birthers had any reason to question McCain's citizenship. McCain presented his credentials to the United States Senate in April 2008, and the Senate resolved unanimously that he was a United States Citizen. So where is the partisan smear? Questions surrounded the citizenship of both candidates. One of them brought his records to the open Senate. The other one has done nothing substantive to resolve the controversy.

I don't think it would be a bad idea to have all the candidates subject themselves to review prior to entering the campaign.

The whole monkey/mustache/Muslim thing is a big reach; you appear to be attempting to make those things a corelative bridge between your conclusions regarding who has sought whose documentation (and why / why not) and your conclusion that birthers have "move[d] from the margins to a mainstream laughingstock." I don't get it. Are you implying that the birthers view Obama as a Hitler / primate / Muslim? I'm not suggesting that I buy the birther premise, but the birthers I've talked to (I know; entirely anecdotal) don't stake their claims on a racial basis (though some of them are concerned that he is lying about his religion).

The Hitler comparison is somewhat on target, isn't it? Hitler was a national socialist. Obama appears to be a national socialist. But I think the comparison essentially ends there (though the accusation of embracing national socialism is awfully pernicious in itself).

Latest Major Action: 4/30/2008 Passed/agreed to in Senate. Status: Resolution agreed to in Senate without amendment and with a preamble by Unanimous Consent.

Thomas.gov

So McCain presented his credentials. Did he present his parents' credentials...since a big part of his claim/case would have hinged upon both of them being American citizens?! Joking of course, but you hopefully get the point. John McCain presents his "credentials" to a body he has been a member of for 2,000 years...to a group of people who might need to have to work with him to get anything done if he wins the election for POTUS, and they pass a resolution because 90+ percent of them couldn't present any more detailed credentials than he did.As to the rest, of course "not all Birthers" are ANYTHING! No more than all professional athletes are skirt-chasing ######-bags or all Catholics support child molestation. The world is gray...not black and white. Heck, if there is a better modern example than Barack Hussein Obama not being "black" or "white," I'd like to hear it. There are very few absolutes in the real world. If the Birthers want to be taken seriously, however, they'll "police their own" and crack the minority of loons out there who A-R-E pursuing this for purposes of racial and/or religious bigotry in their collective skulls. But they won't. Not if they see the potential for political/financial/??? gain as a result. It's not just the Republicans either. Heck, Hillary Clinton was as guilty of it as anyone when she had that pregnant pause during the 2008 primaries talking about Obama's citizenship/religion in terms of "....as far as I know." AKA "That's what Obama says, so I have to take him at his word (even though I'll gain a point or two in the polls if I can figure out a way to plant seeds of doubt about it in the 1-2% of sheep who are especially impressionable)."

A bit like Senator Jon Kyl's Lies About Planned Parenthood "Not Intended to be Factual Statement," no?!

 

[CBusAlex]

I'll ask again, because you refused to answer the first time. Where did the 2 million in legal fees come from? Link?

Link

 

[Jayrod]

2,138 posts!!!

 

[the moops]

Perhaps we should listen to Palin herself.

“You can file a frivolous ethics charge, and many were filed against me, and I won all of them, but it doesn’t cost the person who is filing them anything. They can just make something up, and in fact they did make a lot of things up,” she said on Mark Levin’s syndicated tadio show in 2009. “So it was over half a million dollars in legal fees that I was accumulating to defend against frivolous lawsuits that were getting thrown out one by one.”

If only there was an innocuous document whose release she could have authorized as an alternative...lmfaogreat analaogy....NOT...

How about troopergate.

On September 18, the McCain/Palin campaign announced that Todd Palin would refuse to testify because he does not believe the investigation is legitimate

 

[Brock Middlebrook]

Perhaps we should listen to Palin herself.

“You can file a frivolous ethics charge, and many were filed against me, and I won all of them, but it doesn’t cost the person who is filing them anything. They can just make something up, and in fact they did make a lot of things up,” she said on Mark Levin’s syndicated tadio show in 2009. “So it was over half a million dollars in legal fees that I was accumulating to defend against frivolous lawsuits that were getting thrown out one by one.”

If only there was an innocuous document whose release she could have authorized as an alternative...lmfaogreat analaogy....NOT...

How about troopergate.

On September 18, the McCain/Palin campaign announced that Todd Palin would refuse to testify because he does not believe the investigation is legitimate

Much much better analogy, Especially since he was probably hiding something minor which could potentially be blown out of proportion by political opponents.

 

[matuski]

this is so awesome.

edit - if only golddigger would hop in here, I think he would make the thread perfect.

 

[Mr. Pickles]

golddigger

I'm sure MoO will chime in once golddigger's estate is out of probate.

 

[Heavy B]

Neither the media nor the birthers had any reason to question McCain's citizenship. McCain presented his credentials to the United States Senate in April 2008, and the Senate resolved unanimously that he was a United States Citizen. So where is the partisan smear? Questions surrounded the citizenship of both candidates. One of them brought his records to the open Senate. The other one has done nothing substantive to resolve the controversy.

I don't think it would be a bad idea to have all the candidates subject themselves to review prior to entering the campaign.

The whole monkey/mustache/Muslim thing is a big reach; you appear to be attempting to make those things a corelative bridge between your conclusions regarding who has sought whose documentation (and why / why not) and your conclusion that birthers have "move[d] from the margins to a mainstream laughingstock." I don't get it. Are you implying that the birthers view Obama as a Hitler / primate / Muslim? I'm not suggesting that I buy the birther premise, but the birthers I've talked to (I know; entirely anecdotal) don't stake their claims on a racial basis (though some of them are concerned that he is lying about his religion).

The Hitler comparison is somewhat on target, isn't it? Hitler was a national socialist. Obama appears to be a national socialist. But I think the comparison essentially ends there (though the accusation of embracing national socialism is awfully pernicious in itself).

Latest Major Action: 4/30/2008 Passed/agreed to in Senate. Status: Resolution agreed to in Senate without amendment and with a preamble by Unanimous Consent.

Thomas.gov

So McCain presented his credentials. Did he present his parents' credentials...since a big part of his claim/case would have hinged upon both of them being American citizens?! Joking of course, but you hopefully get the point. John McCain presents his "credentials" to a body he has been a member of for 2,000 years...to a group of people who might need to have to work with him to get anything done if he wins the election for POTUS, and they pass a resolution because 90+ percent of them couldn't present any more detailed credentials than he did.As to the rest, of course "not all Birthers" are ANYTHING! No more than all professional athletes are skirt-chasing ######-bags or all Catholics support child molestation. The world is gray...not black and white. Heck, if there is a better modern example than Barack Hussein Obama not being "black" or "white," I'd like to hear it. There are very few absolutes in the real world. If the Birthers want to be taken seriously, however, they'll "police their own" and crack the minority of loons out there who A-R-E pursuing this for purposes of racial and/or religious bigotry in their collective skulls. But they won't. Not if they see the potential for political/financial/??? gain as a result. It's not just the Republicans either. Heck, Hillary Clinton was as guilty of it as anyone when she had that pregnant pause during the 2008 primaries talking about Obama's citizenship/religion in terms of "....as far as I know." AKA "That's what Obama says, so I have to take him at his word (even though I'll gain a point or two in the polls if I can figure out a way to plant seeds of doubt about it in the 1-2% of sheep who are especially impressionable)."

A bit like Senator Jon Kyl's Lies About Planned Parenthood "Not Intended to be Factual Statement," no?!

Let's begin by agreeing that Senator John S. McCain III is the son of Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., who is in turn the son of Admiral John S. McCain, Sr. Having a line of United States Navy Admirals as one's forebears doesn't necessarily make a person a United States citizen. It does, however, (IMO) represent a really good start. I'm willing to accept that Senator McCain's lineage + endorsement by the U.S. Senate = Citizen. And, as it appears that you, too, are willing to accept this, then let's move on. McCain forebears

Let's put a pin in your accusation that 90% of Senators can't produce any more detailed documentation then did McCain in order to prove their respective citizenship. Need a link or some cite to support that proposition. Also, I believe that you're implying that McCain's proof sets a pretty low bar. Waiting for a cite to support that position, too. Or, please explain if I misread the tone of your post.

Reading the rest of that post gave me motion sickness. I presume you feel that the birthers are largely (however, clearly according to your post...not all) uninformed bigots who are angry that POTUS is at least a non-white person; and at worst, a black muslim. Why don't you just say that?

 

[Statorama]

Bill Clinton had the Vince Foster "murder."

To be fair to Bill, most of the accusations were against the staff of Hilary Clinton. From the research gathered, Hilary (and by extension, Bill) may not have even had knowledge of the crime until after it was done. The chaotic aftermath lends creedence to the theory that an overzealous staffer made a move on their own and needed some help with the cover-up.Never forget.

 

[matuski]

I presume you feel that the birthers are largely (however, clearly according to your post...not all) uninformed bigots who are angry that POTUS is at least a non-white person; and at worst, a black muslim. Why don't you just say that?

Nahhhhh... where would we get that idea from?

 

[timschochet]

Latest NY Times Poll, issued today, among Republicans:

47% believe that Obama was not born in the United States.

31% believe he was.

22% are unsure.

Just friggin amazing. I don't know if I can actually believe this poll. There has not been a single poster in this forum willing to state that he believes that Obama was not born here- not even the most persistent "Birther" supporters, like Jon_Mx are willing to assert that belief. Donald Trump won't assert this. Yet we're told that 47% of Republicans believe this???

 

[Don't Noonan]

Latest NY Times Poll, issued today, among Republicans:47% believe that Obama was not born in the United States.31% believe he was.22% are unsure.Just friggin amazing. I don't know if I can actually believe this poll. There has not been a single poster in this forum willing to state that he believes that Obama was not born here- not even the most persistent "Birther" supporters, like Jon_Mx are willing to assert that belief. Donald Trump won't assert this. Yet we're told that 47% of Republicans believe this???

As a republican I would have voted unsure. Until Obama releases his full birth certificate I don't think we will ever know.

 

[Mr. Pickles]

Latest NY Times Poll, issued today, among Republicans:47% believe that Obama was not born in the United States.31% believe he was.22% are unsure.Just friggin amazing. I don't know if I can actually believe this poll. There has not been a single poster in this forum willing to state that he believes that Obama was not born here- not even the most persistent "Birther" supporters, like Jon_Mx are willing to assert that belief. Donald Trump won't assert this. Yet we're told that 47% of Republicans believe this???

As a republican I would have voted unsure. Until Obama releases his full birth certificate I don't think we will ever know.

Until he has his full genome sequenced, I'm not going to commit to him being human.

 

[timschochet]

Latest NY Times Poll, issued today, among Republicans:47% believe that Obama was not born in the United States.31% believe he was.22% are unsure.Just friggin amazing. I don't know if I can actually believe this poll. There has not been a single poster in this forum willing to state that he believes that Obama was not born here- not even the most persistent "Birther" supporters, like Jon_Mx are willing to assert that belief. Donald Trump won't assert this. Yet we're told that 47% of Republicans believe this???

As a republican I would have voted unsure. Until Obama releases his full birth certificate I don't think we will ever know.

Until he has his full genome sequenced, I'm not going to commit to him being human.

I'm told that in Hawaii, non-humans can apply for a certificate that this sequencing has been performed, even when it hasn't. They're very lax in Hawaii.

 

[Don't Noonan]

Latest NY Times Poll, issued today, among Republicans:47% believe that Obama was not born in the United States.31% believe he was.22% are unsure.Just friggin amazing. I don't know if I can actually believe this poll. There has not been a single poster in this forum willing to state that he believes that Obama was not born here- not even the most persistent "Birther" supporters, like Jon_Mx are willing to assert that belief. Donald Trump won't assert this. Yet we're told that 47% of Republicans believe this???

As a republican I would have voted unsure. Until Obama releases his full birth certificate I don't think we will ever know.

Until he has his full genome sequenced, I'm not going to commit to him being human.

I'm told that in Hawaii, non-humans can apply for a certificate that this sequencing has been performed, even when it hasn't. They're very lax in Hawaii.

Now you guys are just being silly, Nevada is the only state with non-human births

 

[Thunderlips]

Birthers are going to win Obama this election!....KEEP UP WITH THE CRAZY!

 

[Sarnoff]

Latest NY Times Poll, issued today, among Republicans:

Don't put too much stock in a poll of Republicans conducted by the New York Times.

 

[timschochet]

Latest NY Times Poll, issued today, among Republicans:47% believe that Obama was not born in the United States.31% believe he was.22% are unsure.Just friggin amazing. I don't know if I can actually believe this poll. There has not been a single poster in this forum willing to state that he believes that Obama was not born here- not even the most persistent "Birther" supporters, like Jon_Mx are willing to assert that belief. Donald Trump won't assert this. Yet we're told that 47% of Republicans believe this???

As a republican I would have voted unsure. Until Obama releases his full birth certificate I don't think we will ever know.

Until he has his full genome sequenced, I'm not going to commit to him being human.

I'm told that in Hawaii, non-humans can apply for a certificate that this sequencing has been performed, even when it hasn't. They're very lax in Hawaii.

Now you guys are just being silly, Nevada is the only state with non-human births

I didn't say that Hawaii has non-human births, only that they allow people to claim they have non-human births. The laws there are open-ended.

 

[timschochet]

Latest NY Times Poll, issued today, among Republicans:

Don't put too much stock in a poll of Republicans conducted by the New York Times.

Not sure what you're getting at here. Are you suggesting the Times is lying about the results of this poll?

 

[Sarnoff]

Latest NY Times Poll, issued today, among Republicans:

Don't put too much stock in a poll of Republicans conducted by the New York Times.

Not sure what you're getting at here. Are you suggesting the Times is lying about the results of this poll?

I'm suggesting the results should be taken with the same amount of skepticism you would have for a poll of Democrats conducted by Fox News.

 

[timschochet]

Latest NY Times Poll, issued today, among Republicans:

Don't put too much stock in a poll of Republicans conducted by the New York Times.

Not sure what you're getting at here. Are you suggesting the Times is lying about the results of this poll?

I'm suggesting the results should be taken with the same amount of skepticism you would have for a poll of Democrats conducted by Fox News.

But I don't have any skepticism about that. Fox News is generally slanted to the right, but their polls tend to be very reliable, as do the New York Times polls.