The Case Against the President: Emoluments, Trump's Finances, Taxes & Foundation (2 Viewers)

[Encyclopedia Brown]

>>The numbers show that in 1985, Mr. Trump reported losses of $46.1 million from his core businesses — largely casinos, hotels and retail space in apartment buildings. They continued to lose money every year, totaling $1.17 billion in losses for the decade.

In fact, year after year, Mr. Trump appears to have lost more money than nearly any other individual American taxpayer, The Times found when it compared his results with detailed information the I.R.S. compiles on an annual sampling of high-income earners. His core business losses in 1990 and 1991 — more than $250 million each year — were more than double those of the nearest taxpayers in the I.R.S. information for those years.<<

When he published Art of the Deal in 1987, he was over fifty million in debt.

 

[GoBirds]

>>The numbers show that in 1985, Mr. Trump reported losses of $46.1 million from his core businesses — largely casinos, hotels and retail space in apartment buildings. They continued to lose money every year, totaling $1.17 billion in losses for the decade.

In fact, year after year, Mr. Trump appears to have lost more money than nearly any other individual American taxpayer, The Times found when it compared his results with detailed information the I.R.S. compiles on an annual sampling of high-income earners. His core business losses in 1990 and 1991 — more than $250 million each year — were more than double those of the nearest taxpayers in the I.R.S. information for those years.<<

So what does this prove to you?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

So what does this prove to you?

Well for one I think it's undeniable proof that he was running a grift on the American people about his deal making and money making skills.

But for another I think it shows underlying motives in several of the investigations. The inauguration fund, the foundation, emoluments, quid pro quo claims (take your pick), his filings with the US government, and Russia, say what you will but this was a man in severe need of cash flow and in debt to many people and maybe institutions and foreign actors. For the last two we need to see more to determine who he owed - and owes - money to.

 

[The Commish]

I love how he made money scamming the markets pretending he was going to "buy" a company and then selling his stock when it went up.  Then the market caught on and he lost money. 

Clearly he's no Gordon Gekko but you just KNOW he wanted to be  

 

[GoBirds]

Well for one I think it's undeniable proof that he was running a grift on the American people about his deal making and money making skills.

But for another I think it shows underlying motives in several of the investigations. The inauguration fund, the foundation, emoluments, quid pro quo claims (take your pick), his filings with the US government, and Russia, say what you will but this was a man in severe need of cash flow and in debt to many people and maybe institutions and foreign actors. For the last two we need to see more to determine who he owed - and owes - money to.

If you can’t see the full picture how do you know how he’s done overall? Real estate is a roller coaster, it’s not unusual if you have a bad investment to take the hit/loss on it and move on as it provides the tax benefit of a loss carry forward. Just because bad investments are dumped and show on the tax return how are you accounting for the good investments that weren’t unloaded and don’t show a gain/loss on the tax return? 

I’m just curious of how you are quantifying his deal making/business on such a small snapshot and not a full picture?

 

[The Commish]

Well for one I think it's undeniable proof that he was running a grift on the American people about his deal making and money making skills.

But for another I think it shows underlying motives in several of the investigations. The inauguration fund, the foundation, emoluments, quid pro quo claims (take your pick), his filings with the US government, and Russia, say what you will but this was a man in severe need of cash flow and in debt to many people and maybe institutions and foreign actors. For the last two we need to see more to determine who he owed - and owes - money to.

meh...that ship sailed about three weeks into his tenure as President and was completely solidified and wrapped up observing his tariff approach and his NK dealings

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

If you can’t see the full picture how do you know how he’s done overall? Real estate is a roller coaster, it’s not unusual if you have a bad investment to take the hit/loss on it and move on as it provides the tax benefit of a loss carry forward. Just because bad investments are dumped and show on the tax return how are you accounting for the good investments that weren’t unloaded and don’t show a gain/loss on the tax return? 

I’m just curious of how you are quantifying his deal making/business on such a small snapshot and not a full picture?

That's fair. I think that's an argument for providing the schedules behind these returns plus his more recent returns.

I think another way to do this is to look at comps of businessmen who have similar losses over the years. I'd be really surprised if a comp exists. who lends money to someone like this? Who lets them run companies, besides family members?

I think I'm being fair and objective here. We're talking about average losses of $100 million per year over ten years.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

meh...that ship sailed about three weeks into his tenure as President and was completely solidified and wrapped up observing his tariff approach and his NK dealings

Ha, well proof/evidence for some people, you, and other people, are two different things as I think you're well aware.

Same guy is pushing the 2nd biggest deficit in history right now.

 

[The Commish]

Ha, well proof/evidence for some people, you, and other people, are two different things as I think you're well aware.

Same guy is pushing the 2nd biggest deficit in history right now.

I think all we really need to know is that if he'd just invested his inheritance in index funds he'd be about where he claims to be today.  Though, of course, that claim is to be taken with a grain of salt.  I am sure you'll get a lot of derping and "we don't know everything" OR "duh...this isn't new" shtick.  The former is the most honest of the two, though it's not necessary to have every single piece of the puzzle in place to see the picture.

 

[The Commish]

Has he started tweeting about this?  I suspect he'll be up all hours of the night tonight.  This is the kind of thing that will actually affect him enough to lose sleep over it and attack.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

You do realize that this loss was 30+ years ago?

I predict lots of people who get their taxes done at the Walmart Jackson Hewitt booth are going to suddenly be tax experts.

1985-1994, so up to 25 years ago.

You have a fair argument for why experts should look at it, real ones. - Boze, $1 billion in the negative negative in 10 years. You want to argue the last 10 years before he got elected were better, ok. Maybe he became a better businessman? Maybe he had some turnaround?

As I understand it the 2005 1995, the infamous Maddow return, was the ideal year for Trump because that's the year he asked Deutsche Bank for a loan, and they would be giving him a good going over.

(eta, grr, happy to post the text for that if you don't have access, could be a while though...).

 

[Sammy3469]

You do realize that this loss was 30+ years ago?

I predict lots of people who get their taxes done at the Walmart Jackson Hewitt booth are going to suddenly be tax experts.

It takes a special kind of condescension  to assume the American people can’t comprehend taxes.

 

[sho nuff]

It takes a special kind of condescension  to assume the American people can’t comprehend taxes.

Like Sarah Sanders did?

 

[GoBirds]

That's fair. I think that's an argument for providing the schedules behind these returns plus his more recent returns.

I think another way to do this is to look at comps of businessmen who have similar losses over the years. I'd be really surprised if a comp exists. who lends money to someone like this? Who lets them run companies, besides family members?

I think I'm being fair and objective here. We're talking about average losses of $100 million per year over ten years.

I think the bolded is a good point and why this is a big waste of time we will never be able to quantify. While schedules will show the income for that year, how do you quantify the market value of the property at that time vs what it was acquired for etc. Then envision how many entities he has his hand in....then do we trust The NY Times(or whoever is delivering this “news”) to give us fair valuations of these in their write up? There’s just no way anything accurate comes from this, will just be skewed based on the agenda of who is writing the article. 

 

[Sammy3469]

I think the bolded is a good point and why this is a big waste of time we will never be able to quantify. While schedules will show the income for that year, how do you quantify the market value of the property at that time vs what it was acquired for etc. Then envision how many entities he has his hand in....then do we trust The NY Times(or whoever is delivering this “news”) to give us fair valuations of these in their write up? There’s just no way anything accurate comes from this, will just be skewed based on the agenda of who is writing the article. 

Whelp there’s an easy way to solve that  

 

[Sammy3469]

Like Sarah Sanders did?

More specialer 

 

[GoBirds]

Whelp there’s an easy way to solve that  

Please explain in detail. 

 

[Sammy3469]

Please explain in detail. 

Pretty easy really...release his taxes  

 

[GoBirds]

Pretty easy really...release his taxes  

Did you not read my posts above? That won’t give a clear picture. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I think the bolded is a good point and why this is a big waste of time we will never be able to quantify. While schedules will show the income for that year, how do you quantify the market value of the property at that time vs what it was acquired for etc. Then envision how many entities he has his hand in....then do we trust The NY Times(or whoever is delivering this “news”) to give us fair valuations of these in their write up? There’s just no way anything accurate comes from this, will just be skewed based on the agenda of who is writing the article. 

IIRC Cohen said Trump was submitting different market values to lenders than what he was providing the IRS.

That's one reason Congress has asked for documentation from both.

 

[GoBirds]

IIRC Cohen said Trump was submitting different market values to lenders than what he was providing the IRS.

That's one reason Congress has asked for documentation from both.

I get that it sounds devious but think about it.....your books used for your return have a book value based off what you paid for it. When getting a loan from a bank they base what they loan you off market value so if you’ve made a good investment and it’s worth more than you have in it obviously you will let them know and use market value. This is the norm not unusual. 

 

[Sammy3469]

Did you not read my posts above? That won’t give a clear picture. 

If you honestly believe someone can show year after year of losses on their taxes and experience massive gains in real estate value, whelp I got some prime Atlantic City casinos to sell you (and some prime fraudulent university IP addresses as well).

 

[GoBirds]

If you honestly believe someone can show year after year of losses on their taxes and experience massive gains in real estate value, whelp I got some prime Atlantic City casinos to sell you (and some prime fraudulent university IP addresses as well).

I’m pretty confident I don’t need lessons in real estate from you but thanks. If you do want to detail how you will provide a detailed view of his financial position from a handful of tax returns I’m happy to listen but assume you can’t and are part of the “we want tax returnz!” bunch since Russia didn’t pan out. 

 

[McJose]

If Trump’s dad had been a burger-flipper Donald would, at best, would have been assistant to the lead burger-flipper somewhere.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Mnuchin gives private speech to Trump donors.

>>Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin addressed a group of top donors backing President Trump’s reelection Tuesday evening, making an unusual political appearance at a gathering that included industry executives his agency is tasked with regulating.<<

- Pretty much what Hillary and Bill were slated for.

 

[Sammy3469]

I’m pretty confident I don’t need lessons in real estate from you but thanks. If you do want to detail how you will provide a detailed view of his financial position from a handful of tax returns I’m happy to listen but assume you can’t and are part of the “we want tax returnz!” bunch since Russia didn’t pan out. 

Notice I didn’t say handful, I said all.  I’m perfectly aware LLCs can show pass-through losses with increasing real values In the short term.

 

[McJose]

The newspaper said Trump posted losses in excess of $250 million in both 1990 and 1991, which appeared to be more than double any other individual U.S. taxpayer, based on IRS data.

 like this is “business as usual”.  How much did guys like Ted Turner or Bill Gates of Warren Buffett lose around that same time?

 

[[scooter]]

Mnuchin gives private speech to Trump donors.

>>Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin addressed a group of top donors backing President Trump’s reelection Tuesday evening, making an unusual political appearance at a gathering that included industry executives his agency is tasked with regulating.<<

- Pretty much what Hillary and Bill were slated for.

Reminds me of Fox News' obsession with Hillary's "Wall Street speeches"

 

[GoBirds]

Notice I didn’t say handful, I said all.  I’m perfectly aware LLCs can show pass-through losses with increasing real values In the short term.

Which past presidents have provided all of their tax returns? 

You still haven’t explained how you will account for acquisition costs, fair market value, important info relative to the properties that don’t show up on a schedule on a personal return, among many other factors critical to determine a clear picture on his financial position?

If you don’t know what you are looking for demanding tax returns doesn’t seem to accomplish much.....and if there is no precedent for this amount of financial info being provided how can you set a new norm just because you don’t like him?

 

[timschochet]

 Ted Turner or Bill Gates or Warren Buffett 

FTR, these aren’t good comparisons. 

Steve Wynn

Sheldon Adelson

Krikorian (developer of the MGM Grand at the time). 

These are Trump’s peers; they’re probably the guys you want to look at. 

 

[urbanhack]

TONY REZKO

 

[adonis]

You gotta have faith in the con man to believe the lies and set aside the truth staring you in the face.

 

[timschochet]

Which past presidents have provided all of their tax returns? 

You still haven’t explained how you will account for acquisition costs, fair market value, important info relative to the properties that don’t show up on a schedule on a personal return, among many other factors critical to determine a clear picture on his financial position?

If you don’t know what you are looking for demanding tax returns doesn’t seem to accomplish much.....and if there is no precedent for this amount of financial info being provided how can you set a new norm just because you don’t like him?

I agree with you GoBirds. I’ve never cared about seeing his taxes. I assume he’s a little bit dishonest, a little bit cut corners. If he had done something really bad he’d be in prison right now. The IRS has fried bigger fish than Trump. 

I know there are some people that buy into the Rachel Maddow theory that he borrowed money from Deutche, who gets their money from Russia, so Trump is a stooge of Russia. It’s a crackpot theory IMO. Deutchebanke does have ties to Russian oligarchs, and they probably laundered some of their money by helping Trump buy property. But these sort of shady deals are standard in the upscale real estate industry. Trump is not close to unique in this regard, and the idea that it came with political strings attached is silly IMO. 

 

[2Squirrels1Nut]

NYT reporting it has 10 years of Trump’s tax returns.

·

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/05/07/us/politics/donald-trump-taxes.html

Although interesting don't care much about these. I want to see the last 10-15 years. 

 

[GoBirds]

I agree with you GoBirds. I’ve never cared about seeing his taxes. I assume he’s a little bit dishonest, a little bit cut corners. If he had done something really bad he’d be in prison right now. The IRS has fried bigger fish than Trump. 

I know there are some people that buy into the Rachel Maddow theory that he borrowed money from Deutche, who gets their money from Russia, so Trump is a stooge of Russia. It’s a crackpot theory IMO. Deutchebanke does have ties to Russian oligarchs, and they probably laundered some of their money by helping Trump buy property. But these sort of shady deals are standard in the upscale real estate industry. Trump is not close to unique in this regard, and the idea that it came with political strings attached is silly IMO. 

Yep I think we are on the same page and your first paragraph nailed it. The bolded is what Maddow is selling these days, wow. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I agree with you GoBirds. I’ve never cared about seeing his taxes. I assume he’s a little bit dishonest, a little bit cut corners. If he had done something really bad he’d be in prison right now. The IRS has fried bigger fish than Trump. 

I know there are some people that buy into the Rachel Maddow theory that he borrowed money from Deutche, who gets their money from Russia, so Trump is a stooge of Russia. It’s a crackpot theory IMO. Deutchebanke does have ties to Russian oligarchs, and they probably laundered some of their money by helping Trump buy property. But these sort of shady deals are standard in the upscale real estate industry. Trump is not close to unique in this regard, and the idea that it came with political strings attached is silly IMO. 

I like Birds’ & Sammy’s discussion, it had some insight. You’re in the biz, any views on property valuation and taking losses Vs what is reported to lenders?

 

[2Squirrels1Nut]

I agree with you GoBirds. I’ve never cared about seeing his taxes. I assume he’s a little bit dishonest, a little bit cut corners. If he had done something really bad he’d be in prison right now. The IRS has fried bigger fish than Trump. 

I know there are some people that buy into the Rachel Maddow theory that he borrowed money from Deutche, who gets their money from Russia, so Trump is a stooge of Russia. It’s a crackpot theory IMO. Deutchebanke does have ties to Russian oligarchs, and they probably laundered some of their money by helping Trump buy property. But these sort of shady deals are standard in the upscale real estate industry. Trump is not close to unique in this regard, and the idea that it came with political strings attached is silly IMO. 

I wouldn't care much either IF HE WASN'T THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES!!! 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Steve Wynn

Republican Party Finance co-chairman. Resigned.

 

[Jackstraw]

I agree with you GoBirds. I’ve never cared about seeing his taxes. I assume he’s a little bit dishonest, a little bit cut corners. If he had done something really bad he’d be in prison right now. The IRS has fried bigger fish than Trump. 

I know there are some people that buy into the Rachel Maddow theory that he borrowed money from Deutche, who gets their money from Russia, so Trump is a stooge of Russia. It’s a crackpot theory IMO. Deutchebanke does have ties to Russian oligarchs, and they probably laundered some of their money by helping Trump buy property. But these sort of shady deals are standard in the upscale real estate industry. Trump is not close to unique in this regard, and the idea that it came with political strings attached is silly IMO. 

WHAT??? Dude you are really trying to tell me this dudes finances are irrelevant? Those ten years would have made him extremely vulnerable to money laundering and in the real estate industry he’d have been in a position to do it. Once he did hit he was owned. I’m struggling to follow your logic. 

 

[McJose]

FTR, these aren’t good comparisons. 

Steve Wynn

Sheldon Adelson

Krikorian (developer of the MGM Grand at the time). 

These are Trump’s peers; they’re probably the guys you want to look at. 

 I was thinking of “great businessmen” and “billionaires”.  

 

[lazyike]

There are Trump supporters who believed that we should run our government like a business and thought what better way than with Trump who is one of the worlds greatest business minds ever......well he was during the 80’s into the 90’s one of the world’s worst business minds losing more money yearly than any other tax person during that span. 

 

[sho nuff]

Yeah. Him being a great businessman was touted as why people should vote for him. Inexperience written off because he would hire great people.

Good stuff 

 

[2Squirrels1Nut]

There are Trump supporters who believed that we should run our government like a business and thought what better way than with Trump who is one of the worlds greatest business minds ever......well he was during the 80’s into the 90’s one of the world’s worst business minds losing more money yearly than any other tax person during that span. 

Only the biggest. 

 

[timschochet]

I like Birds’ & Sammy’s discussion, it had some insight. You’re in the biz, any views on property valuation and taking losses Vs what is reported to lenders?

Yes. It’s corrupt. It’s crooked, if you do it too much you get sent to jail. The taxes won’t tell you that though, otherwise he would already be in jail. 

 

[timschochet]

WHAT??? Dude you are really trying to tell me this dudes finances are irrelevant? Those ten years would have made him extremely vulnerable to money laundering and in the real estate industry he’d have been in a position to do it. Once he did hit he was owned. I’m struggling to follow your logic. 

What I’m trying to tell you is that there’s tons of money laundering going on, from Russia, from China, from India, they back a lot of these moguls. It’s usually without the moguls’ knowledge (at least they pretend not to know) and there’s no great political conspiracy that goes with it. 

Years ago when I started in commercial real estate I worked for a guy who had a well known company, I won’t mention the name. In his heyday in the 80s he developed about 200 small shopping centers on corner lots. But then he overextended and was looking at Chapter 13. 

But when I started working for him in the 90s he suddenly had a fusion of money. These Chinese billionaires from Hong Kong were willing to buy any properties they could get. There were strong rumors that some of these guys had made fortunes off of drugs, but my boss never asked. He would fly 4 times a year to Hong Kong with portfolios of shopping centers and come back with cash in the bank. 

This happens all the time. It’s happening today. That’s why this story didn’t impress me. Is Trump a crook? Probably. He certainly plays it fast and loose, but a lot of these developers do. Is Trump a traitor? I doubt it. 

 

[Jackstraw]

What I’m trying to tell you is that there’s tons of money laundering going on, from Russia, from China, from India, they back a lot of these moguls. It’s usually without the moguls’ knowledge (at least they pretend not to know) and there’s no great political conspiracy that goes with it. 

Years ago when I started in commercial real estate I worked for a guy who had a well known company, I won’t mention the name. In his heyday in the 80s he developed about 200 small shopping centers on corner lots. But then he overextended and was looking at Chapter 13. 

But when I started working for him in the 90s he suddenly had a fusion of money. These Chinese billionaires from Hong Kong were willing to buy any properties they could get. There were strong rumors that some of these guys had made fortunes off of drugs, but my boss never asked. He would fly 4 times a year to Hong Kong with portfolios of shopping centers and come back with cash in the bank. 

This happens all the time. It’s happening today. That’s why this story didn’t impress me. Is Trump a crook? Probably. He certainly plays it fast and loose, but a lot of these developers do. Is Trump a traitor? I doubt it. 

I’m pretty amazed at how casually you accept that. We just shrug at bald faced corruption now. 

 

[GoBirds]

Yes. It’s corrupt. It’s crooked, if you do it too much you get sent to jail. The taxes won’t tell you that though, otherwise he would already be in jail. 

Expand on what’s corrupt? It’s not unusual for the actual value of a property and the book value shown in tax returns to differ....don’t you agree?

 

[The Commish]

Are you guys talking about tax value vs fair market value?  Those are typically different, and tax value is usually driven by FMV.

 

[GoBirds]

Tax basis shown on tax returns is based on your cost basis in the property and decreases over time as you take depreciation. It doesn’t increase with market value, that would save significant taxes paid if it did at the sale of property and allowing higher depreciation expense taken yearly. 

 

[msommer]

Are you guys talking about tax value vs fair market value?  Those are typically different, and tax value is usually driven by FMV.

Eventually, if the property is sold, would they not equal? (Or at least there would be a tax on the difference, right?)