The Curious Case of Montee Ball (1 Viewer)

[Matt Waldman]

Wisconsin is known as "Line U" and the backs running behind it in the last decade were celebrated college players that underwhelmed in the pros. The Badgers' strong offensive line masked these backs' weaknesses. It just might be the case that the o-line is now masking some of Montee Ball's strengths. Read here.

 

[smackdaddies]

Wisconsin is known as "Line U" and the backs running behind it in the last decade were celebrated college players that underwhelmed in the pros. The Badgers' strong offensive line masked these backs' weaknesses. It just might be the case that the o-line is now masking some of Montee Ball's strengths. Read here.

good write up - one observation. Injuries killed Calhoun. I think he actually had the stuff to be a good 3rd down back in the NFL - speed, hands, size, but got wiped out by injuries

 

[sho nuff]

Wisconsin is known as "Line U" and the backs running behind it in the last decade were celebrated college players that underwhelmed in the pros. The Badgers' strong offensive line masked these backs' weaknesses. It just might be the case that the o-line is now masking some of Montee Ball's strengths. Read here.

good write up - one observation. Injuries killed Calhoun. I think he actually had the stuff to be a good 3rd down back in the NFL - speed, hands, size, but got wiped out by injuries

Agreed there.Remember that Auburn bowl game when Tuberville acted as if his team speed would kill Wisconsin...then Calhoun just ran past all of his guys and had a huge day (213 yards rushing as they stomped Auburn).

 

[smackdaddies]

Wisconsin is known as "Line U" and the backs running behind it in the last decade were celebrated college players that underwhelmed in the pros. The Badgers' strong offensive line masked these backs' weaknesses. It just might be the case that the o-line is now masking some of Montee Ball's strengths. Read here.

good write up - one observation. Injuries killed Calhoun. I think he actually had the stuff to be a good 3rd down back in the NFL - speed, hands, size, but got wiped out by injuries

Agreed there.Remember that Auburn bowl game when Tuberville acted as if his team speed would kill Wisconsin...then Calhoun just ran past all of his guys and had a huge day (213 yards rushing as they stomped Auburn).

That was a great game. And Shonuff is right - he ran around Auburn - a lot of outside plays where he was just faster than everyone else. And he had great hands. One reason he transferred to WI was because Colorado wanted him to switch to WR.from Wiki

During his two years at Colorado, Calhoun was named the ABC Player of the Game againstNebraska University in 2002 and again against Florida State in 2003. Named the Player of the game against Iowa State, Kansas State and was named honorable mention AllBig 12. Because of NCAA transfer rules, Brian had to sit out the entire 2004 season. However, he kept himself busy by participating on the scout team and on the 4 x 100 meter relay team. The relay team would go on to become the 2005 Big Ten Conferencechampions.

In the 2003 season, Calhoun took over for an injured Bobby Purify and carried the ball 195 times for 810 yards and 5 touchdowns. Calhoun enjoyed a fantastic 2005 with the Wisconsin Badgers by leading the nation with 348 rushing touches for 1,636 yards and 53 receiving touches for 571 yards.

I really think he could of been a great 3rd down back in the NFL.

and yes, I have been a badger fan for a longer time than most of the posters on this board have been alive.

 

[Matt Waldman]

Wisconsin is known as "Line U" and the backs running behind it in the last decade were celebrated college players that underwhelmed in the pros. The Badgers' strong offensive line masked these backs' weaknesses. It just might be the case that the o-line is now masking some of Montee Ball's strengths. Read here.

good write up - one observation. Injuries killed Calhoun. I think he actually had the stuff to be a good 3rd down back in the NFL - speed, hands, size, but got wiped out by injuries

Agreed there.Remember that Auburn bowl game when Tuberville acted as if his team speed would kill Wisconsin...then Calhoun just ran past all of his guys and had a huge day (213 yards rushing as they stomped Auburn).

That was a great game. And Shonuff is right - he ran around Auburn - a lot of outside plays where he was just faster than everyone else. And he had great hands. One reason he transferred to WI was because Colorado wanted him to switch to WR.from Wiki

During his two years at Colorado, Calhoun was named the ABC Player of the Game againstNebraska University in 2002 and again against Florida State in 2003. Named the Player of the game against Iowa State, Kansas State and was named honorable mention AllBig 12. Because of NCAA transfer rules, Brian had to sit out the entire 2004 season. However, he kept himself busy by participating on the scout team and on the 4 x 100 meter relay team. The relay team would go on to become the 2005 Big Ten Conferencechampions.

In the 2003 season, Calhoun took over for an injured Bobby Purify and carried the ball 195 times for 810 yards and 5 touchdowns. Calhoun enjoyed a fantastic 2005 with the Wisconsin Badgers by leading the nation with 348 rushing touches for 1,636 yards and 53 receiving touches for 571 yards.

I really think he could of been a great 3rd down back in the NFL.

and yes, I have been a badger fan for a longer time than most of the posters on this board have been alive.

While I didn't state it with a hammer in the piece, I did reference Calhoun as a scatback type - and he was a good one. Again, not a feature runner. Ball is built more like a lead back and actually runs more like one.

 

[Man in the yellow hat]

Wisconsin is known as "Line U" and the backs running behind it in the last decade were celebrated college players that underwhelmed in the pros. The Badgers' strong offensive line masked these backs' weaknesses. It just might be the case that the o-line is now masking some of Montee Ball's strengths. Read here.

good write up - one observation. Injuries killed Calhoun. I think he actually had the stuff to be a good 3rd down back in the NFL - speed, hands, size, but got wiped out by injuries

Agreed there.Remember that Auburn bowl game when Tuberville acted as if his team speed would kill Wisconsin...then Calhoun just ran past all of his guys and had a huge day (213 yards rushing as they stomped Auburn).

That was a great game. And Shonuff is right - he ran around Auburn - a lot of outside plays where he was just faster than everyone else. And he had great hands. One reason he transferred to WI was because Colorado wanted him to switch to WR.from Wiki

During his two years at Colorado, Calhoun was named the ABC Player of the Game againstNebraska University in 2002 and again against Florida State in 2003. Named the Player of the game against Iowa State, Kansas State and was named honorable mention AllBig 12. Because of NCAA transfer rules, Brian had to sit out the entire 2004 season. However, he kept himself busy by participating on the scout team and on the 4 x 100 meter relay team. The relay team would go on to become the 2005 Big Ten Conferencechampions.

In the 2003 season, Calhoun took over for an injured Bobby Purify and carried the ball 195 times for 810 yards and 5 touchdowns. Calhoun enjoyed a fantastic 2005 with the Wisconsin Badgers by leading the nation with 348 rushing touches for 1,636 yards and 53 receiving touches for 571 yards.

I really think he could of been a great 3rd down back in the NFL.

and yes, I have been a badger fan for a longer time than most of the posters on this board have been alive.

Ball is built more like a lead back and actually runs more like one.

Agree completely on this Matt. Having watched Moss/Fletcher/Dayne/Bennett/Davis/Calhoun/Clay....Ball is just 'different.' Don't know how to describe, but you can see it when he runs with the ball. The backs before him were good in their own way, but Ball just seems to be on another level. I think it is the vision you reference above. He just looks more decisive than any previous Wisconsin runner I've watched.

 

[Man in the yellow hat]

By the way, Terrell Fletcher carved out a nice NFL career for himself as well. Seven years with the Chargers I believe.

 

[smackdaddies]

By the way, Terrell Fletcher carved out a nice NFL career for himself as well. Seven years with the Chargers I believe.

ding ding dingAnd there was Aaron Stecker, who transferred to a small school because he wasn't getting the carries

 

[smackdaddies]

Wisconsin is known as "Line U" and the backs running behind it in the last decade were celebrated college players that underwhelmed in the pros. The Badgers' strong offensive line masked these backs' weaknesses. It just might be the case that the o-line is now masking some of Montee Ball's strengths. Read here.

good write up - one observation. Injuries killed Calhoun. I think he actually had the stuff to be a good 3rd down back in the NFL - speed, hands, size, but got wiped out by injuries

Agreed there.Remember that Auburn bowl game when Tuberville acted as if his team speed would kill Wisconsin...then Calhoun just ran past all of his guys and had a huge day (213 yards rushing as they stomped Auburn).

That was a great game. And Shonuff is right - he ran around Auburn - a lot of outside plays where he was just faster than everyone else. And he had great hands. One reason he transferred to WI was because Colorado wanted him to switch to WR.from Wiki

During his two years at Colorado, Calhoun was named the ABC Player of the Game againstNebraska University in 2002 and again against Florida State in 2003. Named the Player of the game against Iowa State, Kansas State and was named honorable mention AllBig 12. Because of NCAA transfer rules, Brian had to sit out the entire 2004 season. However, he kept himself busy by participating on the scout team and on the 4 x 100 meter relay team. The relay team would go on to become the 2005 Big Ten Conferencechampions.

In the 2003 season, Calhoun took over for an injured Bobby Purify and carried the ball 195 times for 810 yards and 5 touchdowns. Calhoun enjoyed a fantastic 2005 with the Wisconsin Badgers by leading the nation with 348 rushing touches for 1,636 yards and 53 receiving touches for 571 yards.

I really think he could of been a great 3rd down back in the NFL.

and yes, I have been a badger fan for a longer time than most of the posters on this board have been alive.

While I didn't state it with a hammer in the piece, I did reference Calhoun as a scatback type - and he was a good one. Again, not a feature runner. Ball is built more like a lead back and actually runs more like one.

I guess I was responding to One of the unintended consequences with this unit’s excellence is the parade of productive college running backs that underwhelm in the NFL. Ron Dayne, Brian Calhoun, Anthony Davis, P.J. Hill, and John Clay are all examples of players that earned some degree of acclaim in college, but were exposed as average NFL athletes, at best.



I agree with you (even on Fletch and Steck), but I still think that Calhoun never got the chance to show he was a good back, that's all



Having said that, still a great post, like all of them

 

[uwftbl]

Montee is special. Take a look at his highlight film. Sure, the line makes some pretty nice holes but his YAC are silly.

 

[coachbobbyfinstock]

I don't think Montee will be any different than the backs we have been discussing in this thread. These guys were all GREAT college rbs, just not good in the pros- and there is nothing wrong with that. You have to assume it is the system when all of these guys are putting up outstanding numbers in college but don't do much in the NFL. If James WHite played this year do you think his numbers would have been that different?

I will tell you one thing though, for a school that is traditionally good to very good in both Football and B-Ball what have they ever won? They always lose big games. Always.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

You missed an opportunity to title this "The Montee Ball Problem."

 

[mikel2014]

I don't think Montee will be any different than the backs we have been discussing in this thread. These guys were all GREAT college rbs, just not good in the pros- and there is nothing wrong with that. You have to assume it is the system when all of these guys are putting up outstanding numbers in college but don't do much in the NFL. If James WHite played this year do you think his numbers would have been that different?

I will tell you one thing though, for a school that is traditionally good to very good in both Football and B-Ball what have they ever won? They always lose big games. Always.

James White played the whole season. Montee Ball simply proved he was the better back and took over the job.

 

[wiscstlatlmia]

I don't think Montee will be any different than the backs we have been discussing in this thread. These guys were all GREAT college rbs, just not good in the pros- and there is nothing wrong with that. You have to assume it is the system when all of these guys are putting up outstanding numbers in college but don't do much in the NFL. If James WHite played this year do you think his numbers would have been that different?I will tell you one thing though, for a school that is traditionally good to very good in both Football and B-Ball what have they ever won? They always lose big games. Always.

1. James White played all year lol (683 yards 133 att) and he was clearly an inferior back.2. Why do you think John Clay left last year even though he knew he was not getting drafted high or even drafted at all? he saw the writing on the wall, Ball was the feature back next year if he came back or not. 3. They just won the first big ten title game4. Its tough to get to a big bowl when you play in the Big Ten5. they won the Rose Bowl a few years back with dayne.6. checking from your post, it sounds like you have not watched him at all, so how can you even have an opinion on this? lolTo be honest the comparison that keeps coming to me = Knowshon Moreno. But the Knowshon Moreno we saw coming out of college, rather than the one we've seen so far in the NFL. That also does not mean he should be a first round pick, I never thought Moreno was worth that.I think second round is more than reasonable though, kid could carry the load if a team wants him to(20-25 touches a game).

 

[saintfool]

You missed an opportunity to title this "The Montee Ball Problem."

i think i read somewhere how he's not a locker room guy and kind of a jerk. perhaps the title of the thread could be "the montee ball cancer thread"?

 

[az_prof]

Wisconsin is known as "Line U" and the backs running behind it in the last decade were celebrated college players that underwhelmed in the pros. The Badgers' strong offensive line masked these backs' weaknesses. It just might be the case that the o-line is now masking some of Montee Ball's strengths. Read here.

good write up - one observation. Injuries killed Calhoun. I think he actually had the stuff to be a good 3rd down back in the NFL - speed, hands, size, but got wiped out by injuries

Agreed there.Remember that Auburn bowl game when Tuberville acted as if his team speed would kill Wisconsin...then Calhoun just ran past all of his guys and had a huge day (213 yards rushing as they stomped Auburn).

That was a great game. And Shonuff is right - he ran around Auburn - a lot of outside plays where he was just faster than everyone else. And he had great hands. One reason he transferred to WI was because Colorado wanted him to switch to WR.from Wiki

During his two years at Colorado, Calhoun was named the ABC Player of the Game againstNebraska University in 2002 and again against Florida State in 2003. Named the Player of the game against Iowa State, Kansas State and was named honorable mention AllBig 12. Because of NCAA transfer rules, Brian had to sit out the entire 2004 season. However, he kept himself busy by participating on the scout team and on the 4 x 100 meter relay team. The relay team would go on to become the 2005 Big Ten Conferencechampions.

In the 2003 season, Calhoun took over for an injured Bobby Purify and carried the ball 195 times for 810 yards and 5 touchdowns. Calhoun enjoyed a fantastic 2005 with the Wisconsin Badgers by leading the nation with 348 rushing touches for 1,636 yards and 53 receiving touches for 571 yards.

I really think he could of been a great 3rd down back in the NFL.

and yes, I have been a badger fan for a longer time than most of the posters on this board have been alive.

While I didn't state it with a hammer in the piece, I did reference Calhoun as a scatback type - and he was a good one. Again, not a feature runner. Ball is built more like a lead back and actually runs more like one.

I think you make a valid point, but do other leading RB schools have bad OLs?If this really is something that is valid, then I think looking at his measurables may be more important than normal. My question with Ball is does he have the speed and quicks to succeed in the NFL? If his 40 time is 4.5 or less and if he has a good 10 yard dash, then I wouldn't think twice about his OL. He has good instincts and style from what I have seen.

 

[coachbobbyfinstock]

I don't think Montee will be any different than the backs we have been discussing in this thread. These guys were all GREAT college rbs, just not good in the pros- and there is nothing wrong with that. You have to assume it is the system when all of these guys are putting up outstanding numbers in college but don't do much in the NFL. If James WHite played this year do you think his numbers would have been that different?I will tell you one thing though, for a school that is traditionally good to very good in both Football and B-Ball what have they ever won? They always lose big games. Always.

1. James White played all year lol (683 yards 133 att) and he was clearly an inferior back.2. Why do you think John Clay left last year even though he knew he was not getting drafted high or even drafted at all? he saw the writing on the wall, Ball was the feature back next year if he came back or not. 3. They just won the first big ten title game4. Its tough to get to a big bowl when you play in the Big Ten5. they won the Rose Bowl a few years back with dayne.6. checking from your post, it sounds like you have not watched him at all, so how can you even have an opinion on this? lolTo be honest the comparison that keeps coming to me = Knowshon Moreno. But the Knowshon Moreno we saw coming out of college, rather than the one we've seen so far in the NFL. That also does not mean he should be a first round pick, I never thought Moreno was worth that.I think second round is more than reasonable though, kid could carry the load if a team wants him to(20-25 touches a game).

-I should re-phrase. If John White got the same amount of carries I don't think his production would be too far off from Ball's.-2000 isn't 'a few years back.'-Come on guys make bad decisions and leave college early every single year! I have no idea why John left and either do you. Grades? Economic situation? I highly doubt coming off the type of season he had it was bc he was worried about losing carries. If anything Ball's emergence (starting last year) would help Clay imo. -You're right it's tough to get to a 'big game' coming out of the big ten (please see OSU and Michigan).-'(20-25 touches a game)' In the NFL are you serious? Do you watch football on Sundays? That dude is effective but diminitive, he won't last getting the ball that many times. He WILL NOT be a feature back.-based on your handle I can understand you getting hurt over my comments. How could we expect you to give an objective opinion? Don't worry I accept your apology.

 

[az_prof]

Montee is special. Take a look at his highlight film. Sure, the line makes some pretty nice holes but his YAC are silly.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jiBNpAjpNI

You have to always be careful about highlights, but this confirms what I thought I had seen in real games: good burst, good vision, adequate top speed, good ability to make tacklers miss. I didn't see him running through huge holes the way I recall Dayne doing. I can remember Ron going through huge holes and not being touched until he was 10 yards downfield. Most of these runs are not like that. Or, in a lot of cases, the hole is filled and he bounces it outside successfuly. In several he has to shrug off some tackles or make a guy miss.He reminds me a bit of Ray Rice--runs low to the ground and doesn't go down on first contact.

 

[Xue]

Via @nflcharlie:

Montee Ball was a bit smaller than I expected, said he's 205 lbs., but looks closer to 190.

 

[Time Kibitzer]

Montee is special. Take a look at his highlight film. Sure, the line makes some pretty nice holes but his YAC are silly.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jiBNpAjpNI

You have to always be careful about highlights, but this confirms what I thought I had seen in real games: good burst, good vision, adequate top speed, good ability to make tacklers miss. I didn't see him running through huge holes the way I recall Dayne doing. I can remember Ron going through huge holes and not being touched until he was 10 yards downfield. Most of these runs are not like that. Or, in a lot of cases, the hole is filled and he bounces it outside successfuly. In several he has to shrug off some tackles or make a guy miss.He reminds me a bit of Ray Rice--runs low to the ground and doesn't go down on first contact.

After watching those same highlights, I wouldn't say he has good burst; I'd say a better description is adequate burst. And most of his big runs that go to the 2nd level did occur when he was running through big holes. Still, he looks like a NFL player to me despite the excellent O line. I just don't think he's dynamic enough of a runner to be a lead back, which is most important from a fantasy perspective. I'd say he has the skills to put up a couple 1000+ yard seasons if given enough carries, so he's got fantasy value, I just wouldn't expect those kind of numbers consistently. I also don't like how long legged he is, makes him more susceptible to injury imo.Btw, great article Waldman

 

[wiscstlatlmia]

I don't think Montee will be any different than the backs we have been discussing in this thread. These guys were all GREAT college rbs, just not good in the pros- and there is nothing wrong with that. You have to assume it is the system when all of these guys are putting up outstanding numbers in college but don't do much in the NFL. If James WHite played this year do you think his numbers would have been that different?I will tell you one thing though, for a school that is traditionally good to very good in both Football and B-Ball what have they ever won? They always lose big games. Always.

1. James White played all year lol (683 yards 133 att) and he was clearly an inferior back.2. Why do you think John Clay left last year even though he knew he was not getting drafted high or even drafted at all? he saw the writing on the wall, Ball was the feature back next year if he came back or not. 3. They just won the first big ten title game4. Its tough to get to a big bowl when you play in the Big Ten5. they won the Rose Bowl a few years back with dayne.6. checking from your post, it sounds like you have not watched him at all, so how can you even have an opinion on this? lolTo be honest the comparison that keeps coming to me = Knowshon Moreno. But the Knowshon Moreno we saw coming out of college, rather than the one we've seen so far in the NFL. That also does not mean he should be a first round pick, I never thought Moreno was worth that.I think second round is more than reasonable though, kid could carry the load if a team wants him to(20-25 touches a game).

-I should re-phrase. If John White got the same amount of carries I don't think his production would be too far off from Ball's.-2000 isn't 'a few years back.'-Come on guys make bad decisions and leave college early every single year! I have no idea why John left and either do you. Grades? Economic situation? I highly doubt coming off the type of season he had it was bc he was worried about losing carries. If anything Ball's emergence (starting last year) would help Clay imo. -You're right it's tough to get to a 'big game' coming out of the big ten (please see OSU and Michigan).-'(20-25 touches a game)' In the NFL are you serious? Do you watch football on Sundays? That dude is effective but diminitive, he won't last getting the ball that many times. He WILL NOT be a feature back.-based on your handle I can understand you getting hurt over my comments. How could we expect you to give an objective opinion? Don't worry I accept your apology.

I'm confused, when has any Wisconsin RB ever put up numbers like Ball Has? Clay got injured in the middle of last year and when he came back he was in the middle of an RBBC because Ball performed so well in his absence. How often does the conference player of the year get replaced in one, short, injury stint? Ball had 996 yards on 176 carries last year and had as many touchdowns as Clay did the prior year on over 100 less touches. He has 38TDs this year..................38. please, enlighten me on any Wisconsin RB that has ever gotten within 15 TDs of that before. You have not watched one game man. His hands are legit out of the Backfield and he has solid vision and cutback ability. I'm not claiming that he is an elite prospect and is a no doubt feature back, I'm saying he has the potential to be. Did you care to take a look at John Clay's sophomore year? 1500 yards and 18 TDs as a soph. I loved him coming in and I loved him as a back for Wisconsin, But I never thought for a minute he would be a legit feature back in the NFL. You think any RB you throw in at Wisc is gonna come out with a season comparable to 1750 yards and 32 rushing TDs? LOL . Are you serious? thats just ridiculous man, I'm sorry. not to mention 20 catches for 255 yards and 6 TDs. John Clay had 11 catches for 72 yards and 0 tds in his career. This even blows Ron Dayne's Career year out of the water. Dayne has two very impressive years:1860 yards and 18 tds as a freshman 6.3 YPC1834 with 19 tds as a senior 6.1 YPCBall's year:1750 yards and 32tds 6.4 YPCwhich year are you taking?(thats not even taking receiving into account) Literally all your doing is coming in hear and shouting like the drunk guy at the bar. You have no reasoning for your logic, other than you should count him out because hes a Wisconsin RB. Thats ignorant man. Maybe he ends up busting , but that doesn't mean hes not an interesting talent. Throwing Ball in with guys like Clay, Dayne, Calhoun, Davis and whoever else is just Ignorant IMO. Grouping any of those guys together in the first place is Ridiculous, because they literally could not be more different runners.

 

[smackdaddies]

I think Waldman's take is about right with Ball. Good vision, good hands, needs to pick up blocking some, has potential to be a real NFL player.

 

[sho nuff]

I don't think Montee will be any different than the backs we have been discussing in this thread. These guys were all GREAT college rbs, just not good in the pros- and there is nothing wrong with that. You have to assume it is the system when all of these guys are putting up outstanding numbers in college but don't do much in the NFL. If James WHite played this year do you think his numbers would have been that different?I will tell you one thing though, for a school that is traditionally good to very good in both Football and B-Ball what have they ever won? They always lose big games. Always.

Kind of how Tedford QBs always suck in the NFL right?BTW...Aaron Rodgers says hi.BTW...White has played some this year and not looked all that good compared to Ball, looked slow and weak (look at the first State game when Ball came out and White was ineffective).

 

[one time]

Ill preface this by saying I don't know anything about College Football since I never watch it. I was unimpressed the first 5-6 minutes of the 10 minute clip (early and mid year). It seemed like he really figured it out though the last few games with Penn St, Michigan St, and the game before those. I don't know how good those defenses are but those games impressed me with his vision and much better balance. The first 6 minutes he kept getting caught from behind though.

I definitely see a lot of potential. It just depends which Ball comes to play.

 

[loose circuits]

I've seen this guy make some ridiculous cuts. Not quite Lesean McCoy like, but there are many times he's running into A gap and then ends up cutting out to the C without losing much steam and then back to full speed in a flash. A back that runs as compact and powerful as him that can make those cuts will have a future in the NFL. I think projecting him as a Chester Taylor is selling him short...we'll see if his agility drills at the combine agree with what I've seen.

I watched both the Wisconsin and Washington games against Nebraska. I came away much more impressed by Ball than Chris Polk, that is for sure

 

[sho nuff]

I will tell you one thing though, for a school that is traditionally good to very good in both Football and B-Ball what have they ever won? They always lose big games. Always.

They are good to very good.But not great or elite.In football:Their defense and special teams has been an achilles heal. They are a very good team most years, but not good enough to be perfect. For Basketball:They are a soundly coached team that usually lacks real super star talent. Hard nosed, good defense and fundamentals. Those teams are nice for a Big 10 title and pulling a few good upsets. But not elite teams that will really push to far in the tournament without some luck.Yes, they lost...barely...in the Rose Bowl last year. But what are you basing this always lose the big games line on? What are big games to you? Just the Rose Bowl? Are games against OSU while OSU was very good not big games?Was the game against Duke in the ACC/Big10 challenge not a big game a few years ago? Or countless other games they have won in the Kohl Center (one of the best home records out there since they have moved into that place).THey have not won national titles...but its not because they are not a good or very good team.I have long since come to the conclusion they may never win a national title in those sports. But I enjoy how hard they play and when they compete for the conference year in and year out.