The Daily Show with Jon Stewart (1 Viewer)

[Mr. Know-It-All]

Hey Cross, you don't think I am going to Hell do you?

I am seriously considering resigning my post as an AWANA leader and Sunday school teacher now that larry has shown me the error of my ways. I am unfit for teaching.

 

[larry_boy_44]

God NEVER changes... yet, if the doctrines the Catholics added/edited are really valid still, God did change His commands...

God never changes his mind?

I know, I know, the Flood and Soddom and Gommorah... I know...but He really didn't change His command in either of those instances... just because He "repented" doesn't mean that He changed His mind... just because He let Abraham bargain Him down (and not far enough) doesn't mean it meant anything... if there actually were 10 righteous people in S&G, would God have bargained down that far? I would think not...

No, Lawrence, you just said he NEVER changes. That's pretty absolute.C'mon Lawrence, isn't all this railing against the Catholic Church just a way of rationalizing your churches antiCatholic bigotry?

He doesn't, and He hasn't...and it has nothing to do with anti-Catholic bigotry, unless you count holding people accountable for thier heresy and blasphemy bigotry...

I have a number of counsins who started making similar arguments to yours several years ago. Back in the day, when I was a kid, most of them didn't not rationalize their contempt, and they were overt about their antiCatholic, antiSemetic feelings. Now it is all about marketing their church and rationalizing their contempt using scripture, but they still think nobody else is correct but them.I am not saying you are necessarily a bigot, Larry. I believe you are just a little...naive and have bought into the rationalization. It is almost cult-like really. I am reminded of the recent South Park episode about Chef.

I could say the same thing about you... (definatley about Cross...)

 

[larry_boy_44]

Hey Cross, you don't think I am going to Hell do you?

I am seriously considering resigning my post as an AWANA leader and Sunday school teacher now that larry has shown me the error of my ways. I am unfit for teaching.

I USED TO GO TO AWANA!!! That was some cool stuff... lolI was the Heavyweight Champion of my AWANA (we had a sleepover thing and the guys had a wrestling tournament, I won...)

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

Hey Cross, you don't think I am going to Hell do you?

I am seriously considering resigning my post as an AWANA leader and Sunday school teacher now that larry has shown me the error of my ways.  I am unfit for teaching.

I USED TO GO TO AWANA!!! That was some cool stuff... lolI was the Heavyweight Champion of my AWANA (we had a sleepover thing and the guys had a wrestling tournament, I won...)

AWANA is a neat program. I wish I had it when I was a kid. I teach the K-2 (Sparkies). Great age group.

 

[larry_boy_44]

Hey Cross, you don't think I am going to Hell do you?

I am seriously considering resigning my post as an AWANA leader and Sunday school teacher now that larry has shown me the error of my ways.  I am unfit for teaching.

I USED TO GO TO AWANA!!! That was some cool stuff... lolI was the Heavyweight Champion of my AWANA (we had a sleepover thing and the guys had a wrestling tournament, I won...)

AWANA is a neat program. I wish I had it when I was a kid. I teach the K-2 (Sparkies). Great age group.

I think I joined above that age group, and stopped going before JV/V (I think that's what they were called...)I think my last year was like 5th or 6th grade...

 

[dwashington]

First of all, I believe the original autographs of the Bible to be God's inspired infallible word, in light of what we're discussing, that's a big difference.

so you believe man corrupted (possibly) the word? Wonder why God would allow that.

Now when it comes to this scripture from Jeremiah, I'm pretty sure it's a prophetic foreshadowing of Jesus, but it's not clear whether it's talking about His 1st or 2nd coming, as highlighted in John MacArthur's Study Bible

Jeremiah 33:15 A Branch. This is the Messiah King in David's lineage, as in 23:5,6. He is the King whose reign immediately follows the second coming when He appears in power (Dan. 2:35,45; 7:13,14, 27; Matt 16:27-28;24:30; 26:64

33:17-22 God promised to fulfill the Davidic (2 Sam 17) and Priestly/Levitical (Num 25:10-13) Covenants without exception. The promise was as certain as the sure appearance of night and the incalculable number of stars or sand grains (cf. 31:35-37; 33:25,26)

So you believe this is Jesus when he returns in his kingdom on earth? Then you also believe that the next verse is also true, yes?

Jeremiah 33:18 -- nor will the priests, who are Levites, ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.'

So when Jesus sits on the throne of David's kingdom as verse 17 prophesies, there will also be Levite priests who stand before God "continually" to offer burnt offerings and sacrifices.

I thought Jesus did away with the need for the sacrificial system? Why is God still requiring sacrifices "for all times"? Wasn't his plan to send Jesus to be the last sacrifice?

Do you not see the problem here? Why would you accept verse 17 with no reservation, but verse 18 gets swept under the carpet by John MacArthur's Study Bible?

Jeremiah is talking about an earthly Jewish kingdom in the days after the exile. He is speaking of Hope for his nation.

I guess it's best to just cut to the chase, otherwise we'll end up walking through every Bible verse that you don't believe, which I'm sure are too numerous to number.Basically, I believe that there is a Supreme God who created the universe. I don't think human life is a random event.

Obviously you have studied Scriptures, religions, archaelogoy much more in depth than I have, as is demonstrated by your superior breadth of knowledge of Biblical history and context, but at some point you just couldn't make that leap.

Because I believe in one Supreme God who is Lord of us all, I also believe in the powers of evil who are going to do everything in their power to make us deny God exists and instead fall into idol worship (i.e. placing all of our faith in human intellect).

At some point there is a leap of faith to be made, because I believe without faith it is impossible to please Him.

No matter how we may try to build empirical formulas, dictas and data that will lead us to the knowledge of God, we can't get there.

And just because you don't believe in God, doesn't mean that there aren't others who made that leap (maybe not on the first jump) and have placed their faith in God's Word.

You make a lot of strong arguments against Jesus being the Son, and against the Scriptures being God's Word, but have you made any suggestions/comments to an alternative?

Do you realize how many people are barely holding on in life solely because of the faith that they have in God?

I dunno..I don't understand your motives.

 

[CrossEyed]

So, pretty much you are the only guy in the world that truly understands the message that God was trying to give man in the Bible. Everyone else is wrong except LB. Thanks for clearing that up.

no, I'm still piecing it together myself, Cross, I don't think I know everything, far from it in fact...

and you realize that you are saying exactly what you claim I am saying, right? I mean, by picking a denomination you are saying they are right above everyone else...

No, LB, that's not what I'm saying when I choose a church. (And our church isn't in a denomination, it's in an association, but I would hate to confuse you with the facts). When I choose a church I am recognizing that God's word encourages us to fellowship with other believers so that we can teach, learn, grow, pray, evangelize, worship, encourage, etc., etc. together. I'm not the one who claims that if you don't believe exactly like a Baptist that you are damned to hell. There's only one person around here that claims they are right above everyone else...lol...seriously. }=O)

 

[larry_boy_44]

So, pretty much you are the only guy in the world that truly understands the message that God was trying to give man in the Bible.  Everyone else is wrong except LB.  Thanks for clearing that up. 

no, I'm still piecing it together myself, Cross, I don't think I know everything, far from it in fact...

and you realize that you are saying exactly what you claim I am saying, right? I mean, by picking a denomination you are saying they are right above everyone else...

No, LB, that's not what I'm saying when I choose a church. (And our church isn't in a denomination, it's in an association, but I would hate to confuse you with the facts). When I choose a church I am recognizing that God's word encourages us to fellowship with other believers so that we can teach, learn, grow, pray, evangelize, worship, encourage, etc., etc. together. I'm not the one who claims that if you don't believe exactly like a Baptist that you are damned to hell. There's only one person around here that claims they are right above everyone else...lol...seriously. }=O)

that's only because most Christian organizations/denominations have bought into the same lie... I mean, did you know that there are orgs. that are now saying that people of other religions (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whateveR) are saved, too?Modern Christianity is a mess, we've moved so far from God... we need to go back...

 

[CrossEyed]

Hey Cross, you don't think I am going to Hell do you?

I am seriously considering resigning my post as an AWANA leader and Sunday school teacher now that larry has shown me the error of my ways. I am unfit for teaching.

I'm starting to think that God is really mad at me and I'm already in hell.

 

[CrossEyed]

So, pretty much you are the only guy in the world that truly understands the message that God was trying to give man in the Bible. Everyone else is wrong except LB. Thanks for clearing that up.

no, I'm still piecing it together myself, Cross, I don't think I know everything, far from it in fact...

and you realize that you are saying exactly what you claim I am saying, right? I mean, by picking a denomination you are saying they are right above everyone else...

No, LB, that's not what I'm saying when I choose a church. (And our church isn't in a denomination, it's in an association, but I would hate to confuse you with the facts). When I choose a church I am recognizing that God's word encourages us to fellowship with other believers so that we can teach, learn, grow, pray, evangelize, worship, encourage, etc., etc. together. I'm not the one who claims that if you don't believe exactly like a Baptist that you are damned to hell. There's only one person around here that claims they are right above everyone else...lol...seriously. }=O)

that's only because most Christian organizations/denominations have bought into the same lie... I mean, did you know that there are orgs. that are now saying that people of other religions (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whateveR) are saved, too?Modern Christianity is a mess, we've moved so far from God... we need to go back...

Nice redirect. It's what you do best. What does your reply have to do with anything I wrote?

 

[larry_boy_44]

So, pretty much you are the only guy in the world that truly understands the message that God was trying to give man in the Bible.  Everyone else is wrong except LB.  Thanks for clearing that up. 

no, I'm still piecing it together myself, Cross, I don't think I know everything, far from it in fact...

and you realize that you are saying exactly what you claim I am saying, right? I mean, by picking a denomination you are saying they are right above everyone else...

No, LB, that's not what I'm saying when I choose a church. (And our church isn't in a denomination, it's in an association, but I would hate to confuse you with the facts). When I choose a church I am recognizing that God's word encourages us to fellowship with other believers so that we can teach, learn, grow, pray, evangelize, worship, encourage, etc., etc. together. I'm not the one who claims that if you don't believe exactly like a Baptist that you are damned to hell. There's only one person around here that claims they are right above everyone else...lol...seriously. }=O)

that's only because most Christian organizations/denominations have bought into the same lie... I mean, did you know that there are orgs. that are now saying that people of other religions (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whateveR) are saved, too?Modern Christianity is a mess, we've moved so far from God... we need to go back...

Nice redirect. It's what you do best. What does your reply have to do with anything I wrote?

its just another reason that most modern denominations have no connection with the God they claim to serve...

 

[CrossEyed]

So, pretty much you are the only guy in the world that truly understands the message that God was trying to give man in the Bible. Everyone else is wrong except LB. Thanks for clearing that up.

no, I'm still piecing it together myself, Cross, I don't think I know everything, far from it in fact...

and you realize that you are saying exactly what you claim I am saying, right? I mean, by picking a denomination you are saying they are right above everyone else...

No, LB, that's not what I'm saying when I choose a church. (And our church isn't in a denomination, it's in an association, but I would hate to confuse you with the facts). When I choose a church I am recognizing that God's word encourages us to fellowship with other believers so that we can teach, learn, grow, pray, evangelize, worship, encourage, etc., etc. together. I'm not the one who claims that if you don't believe exactly like a Baptist that you are damned to hell. There's only one person around here that claims they are right above everyone else...lol...seriously. }=O)

that's only because most Christian organizations/denominations have bought into the same lie... I mean, did you know that there are orgs. that are now saying that people of other religions (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whateveR) are saved, too?Modern Christianity is a mess, we've moved so far from God... we need to go back...

Nice redirect. It's what you do best. What does your reply have to do with anything I wrote?

its just another reason that most modern denominations have no connection with the God they claim to serve...

And once again, that has nothing to do with the post from above.

 

[larry_boy_44]

So, pretty much you are the only guy in the world that truly understands the message that God was trying to give man in the Bible.  Everyone else is wrong except LB.  Thanks for clearing that up. 

no, I'm still piecing it together myself, Cross, I don't think I know everything, far from it in fact...

and you realize that you are saying exactly what you claim I am saying, right? I mean, by picking a denomination you are saying they are right above everyone else...

No, LB, that's not what I'm saying when I choose a church. (And our church isn't in a denomination, it's in an association, but I would hate to confuse you with the facts). When I choose a church I am recognizing that God's word encourages us to fellowship with other believers so that we can teach, learn, grow, pray, evangelize, worship, encourage, etc., etc. together. I'm not the one who claims that if you don't believe exactly like a Baptist that you are damned to hell. There's only one person around here that claims they are right above everyone else...lol...seriously. }=O)

that's only because most Christian organizations/denominations have bought into the same lie... I mean, did you know that there are orgs. that are now saying that people of other religions (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whateveR) are saved, too?Modern Christianity is a mess, we've moved so far from God... we need to go back...

Nice redirect. It's what you do best. What does your reply have to do with anything I wrote?

its just another reason that most modern denominations have no connection with the God they claim to serve...

And once again, that has nothing to do with the post from above.

Cross... it isn't believing like a Pentecostal that gets you to heaven, it is believing what God said, its believing Truth...the fact of the matter is that most modern denominations have bought a lie and do not teach/preach the truth anymore...

 

[CrossEyed]

So, pretty much you are the only guy in the world that truly understands the message that God was trying to give man in the Bible. Everyone else is wrong except LB. Thanks for clearing that up.

no, I'm still piecing it together myself, Cross, I don't think I know everything, far from it in fact...

and you realize that you are saying exactly what you claim I am saying, right? I mean, by picking a denomination you are saying they are right above everyone else...

No, LB, that's not what I'm saying when I choose a church. (And our church isn't in a denomination, it's in an association, but I would hate to confuse you with the facts). When I choose a church I am recognizing that God's word encourages us to fellowship with other believers so that we can teach, learn, grow, pray, evangelize, worship, encourage, etc., etc. together. I'm not the one who claims that if you don't believe exactly like a Baptist that you are damned to hell. There's only one person around here that claims they are right above everyone else...lol...seriously. }=O)

that's only because most Christian organizations/denominations have bought into the same lie... I mean, did you know that there are orgs. that are now saying that people of other religions (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whateveR) are saved, too?Modern Christianity is a mess, we've moved so far from God... we need to go back...

Nice redirect. It's what you do best. What does your reply have to do with anything I wrote?

its just another reason that most modern denominations have no connection with the God they claim to serve...

And once again, that has nothing to do with the post from above.

Cross... it isn't believing like a Pentecostal that gets you to heaven, it is believing what God said, its believing Truth...the fact of the matter is that most modern denominations have bought a lie and do not teach/preach the truth anymore...

And what exactly makes you so arrogant to think that nobody else understands the truth except you?

 

[larry_boy_44]

So, pretty much you are the only guy in the world that truly understands the message that God was trying to give man in the Bible.  Everyone else is wrong except LB.  Thanks for clearing that up. 

no, I'm still piecing it together myself, Cross, I don't think I know everything, far from it in fact...

and you realize that you are saying exactly what you claim I am saying, right? I mean, by picking a denomination you are saying they are right above everyone else...

No, LB, that's not what I'm saying when I choose a church. (And our church isn't in a denomination, it's in an association, but I would hate to confuse you with the facts). When I choose a church I am recognizing that God's word encourages us to fellowship with other believers so that we can teach, learn, grow, pray, evangelize, worship, encourage, etc., etc. together. I'm not the one who claims that if you don't believe exactly like a Baptist that you are damned to hell. There's only one person around here that claims they are right above everyone else...lol...seriously. }=O)

that's only because most Christian organizations/denominations have bought into the same lie... I mean, did you know that there are orgs. that are now saying that people of other religions (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whateveR) are saved, too?Modern Christianity is a mess, we've moved so far from God... we need to go back...

Nice redirect. It's what you do best. What does your reply have to do with anything I wrote?

its just another reason that most modern denominations have no connection with the God they claim to serve...

And once again, that has nothing to do with the post from above.

Cross... it isn't believing like a Pentecostal that gets you to heaven, it is believing what God said, its believing Truth...the fact of the matter is that most modern denominations have bought a lie and do not teach/preach the truth anymore...

And what exactly makes you so arrogant to think that nobody else understands the truth except you?

there are a lot of people who know the truth other than me, Cross...

 

[ElGatoLoco]

So, pretty much you are the only guy in the world that truly understands the message that God was trying to give man in the Bible. Everyone else is wrong except LB. Thanks for clearing that up.

no, I'm still piecing it together myself, Cross, I don't think I know everything, far from it in fact...

and you realize that you are saying exactly what you claim I am saying, right? I mean, by picking a denomination you are saying they are right above everyone else...

No, LB, that's not what I'm saying when I choose a church. (And our church isn't in a denomination, it's in an association, but I would hate to confuse you with the facts). When I choose a church I am recognizing that God's word encourages us to fellowship with other believers so that we can teach, learn, grow, pray, evangelize, worship, encourage, etc., etc. together. I'm not the one who claims that if you don't believe exactly like a Baptist that you are damned to hell. There's only one person around here that claims they are right above everyone else...lol...seriously. }=O)

that's only because most Christian organizations/denominations have bought into the same lie... I mean, did you know that there are orgs. that are now saying that people of other religions (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whateveR) are saved, too?Modern Christianity is a mess, we've moved so far from God... we need to go back...

Nice redirect. It's what you do best. What does your reply have to do with anything I wrote?

its just another reason that most modern denominations have no connection with the God they claim to serve...

And once again, that has nothing to do with the post from above.

Cross... it isn't believing like a Pentecostal that gets you to heaven, it is believing what God said, its believing Truth...the fact of the matter is that most modern denominations have bought a lie and do not teach/preach the truth anymore...

Unless it is really not that important, like the commandment about the day of rest or the number of other things you've said just really aren't that important.

 

[CrossEyed]

So, pretty much you are the only guy in the world that truly understands the message that God was trying to give man in the Bible. Everyone else is wrong except LB. Thanks for clearing that up.

no, I'm still piecing it together myself, Cross, I don't think I know everything, far from it in fact...

and you realize that you are saying exactly what you claim I am saying, right? I mean, by picking a denomination you are saying they are right above everyone else...

No, LB, that's not what I'm saying when I choose a church. (And our church isn't in a denomination, it's in an association, but I would hate to confuse you with the facts). When I choose a church I am recognizing that God's word encourages us to fellowship with other believers so that we can teach, learn, grow, pray, evangelize, worship, encourage, etc., etc. together. I'm not the one who claims that if you don't believe exactly like a Baptist that you are damned to hell. There's only one person around here that claims they are right above everyone else...lol...seriously. }=O)

that's only because most Christian organizations/denominations have bought into the same lie... I mean, did you know that there are orgs. that are now saying that people of other religions (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whateveR) are saved, too?Modern Christianity is a mess, we've moved so far from God... we need to go back...

Nice redirect. It's what you do best. What does your reply have to do with anything I wrote?

its just another reason that most modern denominations have no connection with the God they claim to serve...

And once again, that has nothing to do with the post from above.

Cross... it isn't believing like a Pentecostal that gets you to heaven, it is believing what God said, its believing Truth...the fact of the matter is that most modern denominations have bought a lie and do not teach/preach the truth anymore...

And what exactly makes you so arrogant to think that nobody else understands the truth except you?

there are a lot of people who know the truth other than me, Cross...

But nobody who belongs to a church, because they've all bought into the lie, right?

 

[matuski]

I'm not necessarily saying mine is right, I'm saying i am 100% sure thiers is wrong (by thier own admission through history)

I can't stop laughing at someone actually saying this.. 100% eh? 100%. So you do think you are God.

 

[Jayrok]

I don't think the verse is Jesus talking at all, so most of your response doesn't make sense to me.  the point is not that Jesus is talking, the point is that David makes statements that foreshadow the future.

I almost cut in the whole chapter also.  But since you're serious.  "worm" references Job 25:4.  Job suffered and defined the term "worm" for us. A worm is less than a man, and it descirbes how Christ was treated before he died on the cross.  He was an outcast.  The first part of psalm 22 is about suffering. David is the author.  He asks a question, where is God during our suffering? Christ asks the question. We all ask the question.  Great poetry, I agree.  But there is so much more here than poetry.  Poetry lasts this long for a reason.  It foreshadows rather than just mirror truth.

The second part of the Psalm is praise to God from David for his faithfulness. David will praise God out in the open, and it may be foreshadowing Christ doing the same. David further says that this praise will come from others in the future as well.   We will all see that God has kept his word.  He has not foresaken us. He did what he said he would do - which is send a Messiah. (Some of us see it. Maybe you don't yet).  The last part is probably still in the future, when all of the earth praises the Lord.

So Jesus didn't really utter the words "My God My God" then? Then why do the NT writers claim Jesus did say it?Maybe all this is symbolic, as you say. Then what value is there in the Jesus passion narrative, if the scene didn't really take place?

You talk of translations. Given time and effort, the same thing could be said about Muhammad. But I don't want to go there.

The person in the poem is describing himself as a worm and not a man. The person in the poem is also described to be Jesus, according the the NT writers. Jesus was not a worm or less than man... not in God's eyes, he was seen as his son.

King David in the poem is considering himself a worm in the eyes of God, and is asking for help.

Jayrok... you are smarter than this...Do you really need Jesus to say "My God, My God why have you forsaken me?"??

If he said it, GREAT!! If he didn't, its still fine... no biggie, the people writing it "stylized" thier stories, kinda like David stylized his poetry, and all of that...

does that phrase really change what Jesus did?

and, I want you to think about this and I'm not totally sure if I think its true, but don't modern Jews have a stake in claiming that waht Jesus did is not what the Messiah is suppose to do? I'm saying that reading a Jewish view on Messianic prophecies that states that Jesus could not be the Messiah is probably biased since they don't believe Jesus is the Messiah... does that make sense? I mean, if I were a Jew I'd be saying Jesus weren't the Messiah, too, and I'm sure I could find OT scriptures to use in ways that would agree with that claim, too, but I would be looking for them and trying to make things fit and things liket hat...

If he didn't say that, did he say "It is finished"? If he didn't say that, did he ask God to forgive them for they know not what they do? If he didn't say that, then what did really happen?See where it goes? Perhaps the whole scene is made up. Did a guy named Jesus die on a cross? sure, why not. Many people died on crosses back then. Could someone pick up a pen and describe a story of a man dying on a cross (40 years later)? absolutely. If he didn't have details, where would he get them? He can use a few verses here and there out of the Hebrew bible to tie is character to OT scriptures.

As for the jewish messiah's expectations. There are many sites and books that can answer that better than me. They did not expect their messiah to die at 30. Messianic prophecies began to surface during the exile years. They wanted hope of a renewed Israel and wanted a champion. The prophets write of this champion. He was supposed to be straight and true like David and Josiah and be in good standing with YHWH, so he would bless them. It's possible that the Jews thought Jesus was the messiah (the leaders were skeptical because they didn't want to lose their power and standing with the romans). But the Jewish population thought he was. That would explain why they openly accepted him on Palm sunday in Jerusalem, but turned on him once he was arrested. Their Messiah wasn't supposed to be arrested. he was a hero.

There were other messiahs that came after Jesus. One actually beat the romans for a while and recaptured Jerusalem and was going to rebuild the temple that was destroyed. He went farther than Jesus did in their eyes as messiah. But then the Romans killed him too.

The thing is... Where in the OT does it say that God is coming as a man to be the end all sacrifice for mankind? When does the kingdom of Judah cease to be a physical kindgom and begins to become just a spiritual kingdom? Because Paul says so? When did the church become the spiritual Israel.. and why?

If it's true, then no one told prophets like Ezekiel.

 

[larry_boy_44]

So, pretty much you are the only guy in the world that truly understands the message that God was trying to give man in the Bible.  Everyone else is wrong except LB.  Thanks for clearing that up. 

no, I'm still piecing it together myself, Cross, I don't think I know everything, far from it in fact...

and you realize that you are saying exactly what you claim I am saying, right? I mean, by picking a denomination you are saying they are right above everyone else...

No, LB, that's not what I'm saying when I choose a church. (And our church isn't in a denomination, it's in an association, but I would hate to confuse you with the facts). When I choose a church I am recognizing that God's word encourages us to fellowship with other believers so that we can teach, learn, grow, pray, evangelize, worship, encourage, etc., etc. together. I'm not the one who claims that if you don't believe exactly like a Baptist that you are damned to hell. There's only one person around here that claims they are right above everyone else...lol...seriously. }=O)

that's only because most Christian organizations/denominations have bought into the same lie... I mean, did you know that there are orgs. that are now saying that people of other religions (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whateveR) are saved, too?Modern Christianity is a mess, we've moved so far from God... we need to go back...

Nice redirect. It's what you do best. What does your reply have to do with anything I wrote?

its just another reason that most modern denominations have no connection with the God they claim to serve...

And once again, that has nothing to do with the post from above.

Cross... it isn't believing like a Pentecostal that gets you to heaven, it is believing what God said, its believing Truth...the fact of the matter is that most modern denominations have bought a lie and do not teach/preach the truth anymore...

Unless it is really not that important, like the commandment about the day of rest or the number of other things you've said just really aren't that important.

the day of rest was important, it just didn't have a specific day it needed to be on...

 

[larry_boy_44]

that's only because most Christian organizations/denominations have bought into the same lie... I mean, did you know that there are orgs. that are now saying that people of other religions (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whateveR) are saved, too?

Modern Christianity is a mess, we've moved so far from God... we need to go back...

Nice redirect. It's what you do best. What does your reply have to do with anything I wrote?

its just another reason that most modern denominations have no connection with the God they claim to serve...

And once again, that has nothing to do with the post from above.

Cross... it isn't believing like a Pentecostal that gets you to heaven, it is believing what God said, its believing Truth...the fact of the matter is that most modern denominations have bought a lie and do not teach/preach the truth anymore...

And what exactly makes you so arrogant to think that nobody else understands the truth except you?

there are a lot of people who know the truth other than me, Cross...

But nobody who belongs to a church, because they've all bought into the lie, right?

there are churches who haven't bought the lie, Cross...

 

[larry_boy_44]

I'm not necessarily saying mine is right, I'm saying i am 100% sure thiers is wrong (by thier own admission through history)

I can't stop laughing at someone actually saying this.. 100% eh? 100%. So you do think you are God.

did you read what I said??? Because, from your reply, I'm thinking that you couldn't possbily have actually read what I said...

 

[CrossEyed]

that's only because most Christian organizations/denominations have bought into the same lie... I mean, did you know that there are orgs. that are now saying that people of other religions (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whateveR) are saved, too?

Modern Christianity is a mess, we've moved so far from God... we need to go back...

Nice redirect. It's what you do best. What does your reply have to do with anything I wrote?

its just another reason that most modern denominations have no connection with the God they claim to serve...

And once again, that has nothing to do with the post from above.

Cross... it isn't believing like a Pentecostal that gets you to heaven, it is believing what God said, its believing Truth...the fact of the matter is that most modern denominations have bought a lie and do not teach/preach the truth anymore...

And what exactly makes you so arrogant to think that nobody else understands the truth except you?

there are a lot of people who know the truth other than me, Cross...

But nobody who belongs to a church, because they've all bought into the lie, right?

there are churches who haven't bought the lie, Cross...

Cool, got a list for us?

 

[larry_boy_44]

that's only because most Christian organizations/denominations have bought into the same lie... I mean, did you know that there are orgs. that are now saying that people of other religions (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whateveR) are saved, too?

Modern Christianity is a mess, we've moved so far from God... we need to go back...

Nice redirect. It's what you do best. What does your reply have to do with anything I wrote?

its just another reason that most modern denominations have no connection with the God they claim to serve...

And once again, that has nothing to do with the post from above.

Cross... it isn't believing like a Pentecostal that gets you to heaven, it is believing what God said, its believing Truth...the fact of the matter is that most modern denominations have bought a lie and do not teach/preach the truth anymore...

And what exactly makes you so arrogant to think that nobody else understands the truth except you?

there are a lot of people who know the truth other than me, Cross...

But nobody who belongs to a church, because they've all bought into the lie, right?

there are churches who haven't bought the lie, Cross...

Cool, got a list for us?

look at what they believe... this isn't difficult, Cross..

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

that's only because most Christian organizations/denominations have bought into the same lie... I mean, did you know that there are orgs. that are now saying that people of other religions (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whateveR) are saved, too?

Modern Christianity is a mess, we've moved so far from God... we need to go back...

Nice redirect. It's what you do best. What does your reply have to do with anything I wrote?

its just another reason that most modern denominations have no connection with the God they claim to serve...

And once again, that has nothing to do with the post from above.

Cross... it isn't believing like a Pentecostal that gets you to heaven, it is believing what God said, its believing Truth...the fact of the matter is that most modern denominations have bought a lie and do not teach/preach the truth anymore...

And what exactly makes you so arrogant to think that nobody else understands the truth except you?

there are a lot of people who know the truth other than me, Cross...

But nobody who belongs to a church, because they've all bought into the lie, right?

there are churches who haven't bought the lie, Cross...

Cool, got a list for us?

Here is the list -Oneness Pentecostal

 

[Politician Spock]

So, pretty much you are the only guy in the world that truly understands the message that God was trying to give man in the Bible. Everyone else is wrong except LB. Thanks for clearing that up.

no, I'm still piecing it together myself, Cross, I don't think I know everything, far from it in fact...

and you realize that you are saying exactly what you claim I am saying, right? I mean, by picking a denomination you are saying they are right above everyone else...

No, LB, that's not what I'm saying when I choose a church. (And our church isn't in a denomination, it's in an association, but I would hate to confuse you with the facts). When I choose a church I am recognizing that God's word encourages us to fellowship with other believers so that we can teach, learn, grow, pray, evangelize, worship, encourage, etc., etc. together. I'm not the one who claims that if you don't believe exactly like a Baptist that you are damned to hell. There's only one person around here that claims they are right above everyone else...lol...seriously. }=O)

that's only because most Christian organizations/denominations have bought into the same lie... I mean, did you know that there are orgs. that are now saying that people of other religions (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whateveR) are saved, too?Modern Christianity is a mess, we've moved so far from God... we need to go back...

Nice redirect. It's what you do best. What does your reply have to do with anything I wrote?

its just another reason that most modern denominations have no connection with the God they claim to serve...

God doesn't connect with denominations. He connects with people. People are saved based on that relationship - it's between them and God. People choose to attend churches that may or may not be part of a denomination. That has nothing to do with their salvation despite the many, MANY, MANY times you've claimed that people that are <insert any denomination other than Pentacostal> are not saved because the denomination has traces of pagan rituals.

 

[larry_boy_44]

Cross... it isn't believing like a Pentecostal that gets you to heaven, it is believing what God said, its believing Truth...

the fact of the matter is that most modern denominations have bought a lie and do not teach/preach the truth anymore...

And what exactly makes you so arrogant to think that nobody else understands the truth except you?

there are a lot of people who know the truth other than me, Cross...

But nobody who belongs to a church, because they've all bought into the lie, right?

there are churches who haven't bought the lie, Cross...

Cool, got a list for us?

Here is the list -Oneness Pentecostal

:buzzer:WRONG!!!

 

[CrossEyed]

there are churches who haven't bought the lie, Cross...

Cool, got a list for us?

look at what they believe... this isn't difficult, Cross..

So then humor me. Give me a list of churches that haven't bought the lie.

 

[larry_boy_44]

So, pretty much you are the only guy in the world that truly understands the message that God was trying to give man in the Bible.  Everyone else is wrong except LB.  Thanks for clearing that up. 

no, I'm still piecing it together myself, Cross, I don't think I know everything, far from it in fact...

and you realize that you are saying exactly what you claim I am saying, right? I mean, by picking a denomination you are saying they are right above everyone else...

No, LB, that's not what I'm saying when I choose a church. (And our church isn't in a denomination, it's in an association, but I would hate to confuse you with the facts). When I choose a church I am recognizing that God's word encourages us to fellowship with other believers so that we can teach, learn, grow, pray, evangelize, worship, encourage, etc., etc. together. I'm not the one who claims that if you don't believe exactly like a Baptist that you are damned to hell. There's only one person around here that claims they are right above everyone else...lol...seriously. }=O)

that's only because most Christian organizations/denominations have bought into the same lie... I mean, did you know that there are orgs. that are now saying that people of other religions (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whateveR) are saved, too?Modern Christianity is a mess, we've moved so far from God... we need to go back...

Nice redirect. It's what you do best. What does your reply have to do with anything I wrote?

its just another reason that most modern denominations have no connection with the God they claim to serve...

God doesn't connect with denominations. He connects with people. People are saved based on that relationship - it's between them and God. People choose to attend churches that may or may not be part of a denomination. That has nothing to do with their salvation despite the many, MANY, MANY times you've claimed that people that are <insert any denomination other than Pentacostal> are not saved because the denomination has traces of pagan rituals.

when I say something like "Catholics are not saved" I am referring to anyone who actually follows the doctrine of the Catholic Church, not simply someone who shows up at a Catholic Church each Sunday...You can be saved showing up to a Catholic Church every Sunday, you cannot be saved following Catholic doctrine...

 

[larry_boy_44]

there are churches who haven't bought the lie, Cross...

Cool, got a list for us?

look at what they believe... this isn't difficult, Cross..

So then humor me. Give me a list of churches that haven't bought the lie.

Cross - I haven't studied the doctrine of every group on earth... I know what the Bible says is needed, I know what history says the early church did, and I would expect churches to follow those things (since they are the same)...but, as far as a list goes, it ain't gonna happen...

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

Larry,

I have never spoken in tongues, but have been baptized. If my baptism was done correctly should I be speaking in tongues to validate that I am actually filled with the Holy Spirit?

 

[larry_boy_44]

Larry,

I have never spoken in tongues, but have been baptized.  If my baptism was done correctly should I be speaking in tongues to validate that I am actually filled with the Holy Spirit?

yes and yet, no...See, speaking in tongues is the only way that hte Bible gave us to know (other than prophesying, but, like I've said before, good luck defining that)...

Does one have to speak in tongues to be filled with the Holy Ghost? Absolutely not... It is, however the only definable evidence we have that someone is filled with the Holy Ghost...

Is it something we should encourage (especially in private prayer times)?? Absolutely (even Paul did this)...

Is any chruch that preaches that speaking in tongues is demonic or not of God a church that we should go to? Absolutely not...

 

[CrossEyed]

there are churches who haven't bought the lie, Cross...

Cool, got a list for us?

look at what they believe... this isn't difficult, Cross..

So then humor me. Give me a list of churches that haven't bought the lie.

Cross - I haven't studied the doctrine of every group on earth... I know what the Bible says is needed, I know what history says the early church did, and I would expect churches to follow those things (since they are the same)...but, as far as a list goes, it ain't gonna happen...

I didn't say a comprehensive list, just a list of a few so if I ever come to my senses I'll know where to go to be in a true church. C'mon Larry, hook a brutha up.

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

Larry,

I have never spoken in tongues, but have been baptized.  If my baptism was done correctly should I be speaking in tongues to validate that I am actually filled with the Holy Spirit?

yes and yet, no...See, speaking in tongues is the only way that hte Bible gave us to know (other than prophesying, but, like I've said before, good luck defining that)...

Does one have to speak in tongues to be filled with the Holy Ghost? Absolutely not... It is, however the only definable evidence we have that someone is filled with the Holy Ghost...

Is it something we should encourage (especially in private prayer times)?? Absolutely (even Paul did this)...

Is any chruch that preaches that speaking in tongues is demonic or not of God a church that we should go to? Absolutely not...

If someone doesn't speak in tongues, do you question whether or not they have been saved? You mentioned earlier that even though I accepted Christ and was baptized that I was hellbound because of my beliefs. I assume this can be extrpolated to include anyone that believes baptism is not a requirement for salvation. Does this extend to tongues as well?

 

[larry_boy_44]

there are churches who haven't bought the lie, Cross...

Cool, got a list for us?

look at what they believe... this isn't difficult, Cross..

So then humor me. Give me a list of churches that haven't bought the lie.

Cross - I haven't studied the doctrine of every group on earth... I know what the Bible says is needed, I know what history says the early church did, and I would expect churches to follow those things (since they are the same)...but, as far as a list goes, it ain't gonna happen...

I didn't say a comprehensive list, just a list of a few so if I ever come to my senses I'll know where to go to be in a true church. C'mon Larry, hook a brutha up.

how's this, sit down with yourself and ask yourself these questionso you baptize in Jesus' name? (if the answer is "no" it is not a proper church and you should find someplace else)

Do you baptize in emersion? (if the answer is "no" you should find a different church since "baptize" is simply a transliteration of the greek word that actually means to dunk/immerse)

Do you believe there is one God? ("yes" is fine... "yes in three forms/persons" is good enough, it sucks but that terminology is not likely to go away anytime soon...)

Do you believe that speaking in tongues is still valid for the modern church? (if "no", wrong church...)

that's pretty much it... everything else is superfluous... the speaking in tongues question is just to see if it is spirit-filled or not (I know of no charismatic/spirit-filled churches that don't speak in tongues a little)

 

[larry_boy_44]

Larry,

I have never spoken in tongues, but have been baptized.  If my baptism was done correctly should I be speaking in tongues to validate that I am actually filled with the Holy Spirit?

yes and yet, no...See, speaking in tongues is the only way that hte Bible gave us to know (other than prophesying, but, like I've said before, good luck defining that)...

Does one have to speak in tongues to be filled with the Holy Ghost? Absolutely not... It is, however the only definable evidence we have that someone is filled with the Holy Ghost...

Is it something we should encourage (especially in private prayer times)?? Absolutely (even Paul did this)...

Is any chruch that preaches that speaking in tongues is demonic or not of God a church that we should go to? Absolutely not...

If someone doesn't speak in tongues, do you question whether or not they have been saved? You mentioned earlier that even though I accepted Christ and was baptized that I was hellbound because of my beliefs. I assume this can be extrpolated to include anyone that believes baptism is not a requirement for salvation. Does this extend to tongues as well?

there are a few reasons I said that (although I shouldn't have said it... but whatever):baptism is stated by Peter in Acts to be for remission for sins... the penalty for sin is death (read: hell)... no remission from sin = you are still under the penalty...

It honestly has nothing to do with whether you believe baptism is absolutely necessary or not, it has to do with whether you did it or not, ya know? As long as you do it, I don't care if you think its a secondary thing or the most important thing, just do it...

tongues aren't absolutely necessary, I'd be more comfortable in anyone's salvation if they spoke in tongues regularly, since that is the only evidence we are given that is easily definable at any reasonable level, but at the same time we aren't suppose to be able to define it (and we wouldn't be able to tell if they were faking it or not, really)...

believing isn't about simply saying "I believe" its also about obeying... If you aren't being obedient to God and following the stuff He said to do, you don't really believe...

 

[CrossEyed]

there are churches who haven't bought the lie, Cross...

Cool, got a list for us?

look at what they believe... this isn't difficult, Cross..

So then humor me. Give me a list of churches that haven't bought the lie.

Cross - I haven't studied the doctrine of every group on earth... I know what the Bible says is needed, I know what history says the early church did, and I would expect churches to follow those things (since they are the same)...but, as far as a list goes, it ain't gonna happen...

I didn't say a comprehensive list, just a list of a few so if I ever come to my senses I'll know where to go to be in a true church. C'mon Larry, hook a brutha up.

how's this, sit down with yourself and ask yourself these questionso you baptize in Jesus' name? (if the answer is "no" it is not a proper church and you should find someplace else)

Do you baptize in emersion? (if the answer is "no" you should find a different church since "baptize" is simply a transliteration of the greek word that actually means to dunk/immerse)

Do you believe there is one God? ("yes" is fine... "yes in three forms/persons" is good enough, it sucks but that terminology is not likely to go away anytime soon...)

Do you believe that speaking in tongues is still valid for the modern church? (if "no", wrong church...)

that's pretty much it... everything else is superfluous... the speaking in tongues question is just to see if it is spirit-filled or not (I know of no charismatic/spirit-filled churches that don't speak in tongues a little)

Really, that's all that's important? So we can believe that Jesus was a sinner just like everyone else and as long as we use His name in baptism it doesn't matter?

 

[larry_boy_44]

there are churches who haven't bought the lie, Cross...

Cool, got a list for us?

look at what they believe... this isn't difficult, Cross..

So then humor me. Give me a list of churches that haven't bought the lie.

Cross - I haven't studied the doctrine of every group on earth... I know what the Bible says is needed, I know what history says the early church did, and I would expect churches to follow those things (since they are the same)...but, as far as a list goes, it ain't gonna happen...

I didn't say a comprehensive list, just a list of a few so if I ever come to my senses I'll know where to go to be in a true church. C'mon Larry, hook a brutha up.

how's this, sit down with yourself and ask yourself these questionso you baptize in Jesus' name? (if the answer is "no" it is not a proper church and you should find someplace else)

Do you baptize in emersion? (if the answer is "no" you should find a different church since "baptize" is simply a transliteration of the greek word that actually means to dunk/immerse)

Do you believe there is one God? ("yes" is fine... "yes in three forms/persons" is good enough, it sucks but that terminology is not likely to go away anytime soon...)

Do you believe that speaking in tongues is still valid for the modern church? (if "no", wrong church...)

that's pretty much it... everything else is superfluous... the speaking in tongues question is just to see if it is spirit-filled or not (I know of no charismatic/spirit-filled churches that don't speak in tongues a little)

Really, that's all that's important? So we can believe that Jesus was a sinner just like everyone else and as long as we use His name in baptism it doesn't matter?

Cross... some stuff I assumed you realized were important and didn't need to be stated, but, since obviously you lack the intelligence to realize that, how's this:Ask if Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, if they say no, not a good church...

Ask if Jesus died on teh cross and rose from the dead on the third day, if they say no, not a good church...

Ask if Jesus was sinless, if the answer is no, not a good church...

better? I mean, seriously...

 

[CrossEyed]

Do they have to believe in dragons?

 

[Soonerman]

Speaking in tongues, as practiced by modern charismatic churches, isn't proof of anything.

The only way it would be proof of anything is if they were doing it like what happened at Pentecost. Wonder why they don't do it that way?

 

[The Commish]

there are churches who haven't bought the lie, Cross...

Cool, got a list for us?

look at what they believe... this isn't difficult, Cross..

So then humor me. Give me a list of churches that haven't bought the lie.

Cross - I haven't studied the doctrine of every group on earth... I know what the Bible says is needed, I know what history says the early church did, and I would expect churches to follow those things (since they are the same)...but, as far as a list goes, it ain't gonna happen...

I didn't say a comprehensive list, just a list of a few so if I ever come to my senses I'll know where to go to be in a true church. C'mon Larry, hook a brutha up.

how's this, sit down with yourself and ask yourself these questionso you baptize in Jesus' name? (if the answer is "no" it is not a proper church and you should find someplace else)

Do you baptize in emersion? (if the answer is "no" you should find a different church since "baptize" is simply a transliteration of the greek word that actually means to dunk/immerse)

Do you believe there is one God? ("yes" is fine... "yes in three forms/persons" is good enough, it sucks but that terminology is not likely to go away anytime soon...)

Do you believe that speaking in tongues is still valid for the modern church? (if "no", wrong church...)

that's pretty much it... everything else is superfluous... the speaking in tongues question is just to see if it is spirit-filled or not (I know of no charismatic/spirit-filled churches that don't speak in tongues a little)

I gotta say LB....these are all examples of Religion getting in the way of your relaitonship with God. I gotta say, all these things you want us to sit down and ask ourselves have NO affect on our direct relationships with God with the exception of the Trinity. Everything else has no bearing on being saved and being in a relationship with God. Sorry to break it to you....

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

I think I am beginning to understand your non-trinity theory. I am not saying I agree with it, but see if I understand it -

1. Jesus = God = Holy Spirit

2. They are not separate, they are all the same thing just called by different name based on the function they are performing

3. In the cases where all three are manifested at the same time (i.e., the baptism of Christ where he is being baptized, the spirit descends and the Father says he is well pleased) this does not make them separate personalities because of God's omnipresence.

4. You believe that saying they are separate and yet one implies that there are 3 Gods which denies the passage "no other Gods".

5. Any passage referring to plurality are possible mistranslations introduced by transcripting.

i think the first four are pretty accurate from what I have read from you, but #5 I had to make an assumption so correct me if I am wrong.

 

[fightingchick]

Jayrock - I noticed that your Isiah prophecy was never addressed. Your claim is that the word almah is different than the word Parthenos. I have three points that refute your claim that this word was mistranslated into virgin. One, the word Almah is used 7 times in the old testament (Gen. 24:43; Ex. 2:8; Psa. 68:25; Prov. 30:19; Song of Sol. 1:3; 6:8; Isa. 7:14). In each instance, when read in context, the young maiden that it described is indeed a virgin (sexually pure). Thus, the biblical translation of the word CAN most certainly be virgin.

But more important, let's look again at Isiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel”

If the word is "young girl" than what kind of sign is this? Why would a young girl concieving a child be a big deal? Now a virgin - that would be a sign.

Third, Matthew claims that the prophecy was fulfilled. I know you think this is a circular argument, but we are talking about why in English the word virgin is appropriate. Matthew translates the word for us. He equates the specific greek word with the generic Hebrew word. The english translators study this and accurately translate the Hebrew almah word into virgin. It places the correct literal word for us to understand in English.

Thus, the context of the word and its prior usage in the scriptures demand that the word almah be translated into the English word virgin in Isiah .

 

[Koya]

So much Myth, so little agreement.

 

[larry_boy_44]

Speaking in tongues, as practiced by modern charismatic churches, isn't proof of anything.

The only way it would be proof of anything is if they were doing it like what happened at Pentecost. Wonder why they don't do it that way?

wait, you mean like where everyone hears it in thier native language??? You realize that happened only once, right?Every other time it happened no one understood it (and Paul even encouraged the churches to speak in tongues PRIVATELY, so obviously us understanding it isn't hte point)

 

[larry_boy_44]

there are churches who haven't bought the lie, Cross...

Cool, got a list for us?

look at what they believe... this isn't difficult, Cross..

So then humor me. Give me a list of churches that haven't bought the lie.

Cross - I haven't studied the doctrine of every group on earth... I know what the Bible says is needed, I know what history says the early church did, and I would expect churches to follow those things (since they are the same)...but, as far as a list goes, it ain't gonna happen...

I didn't say a comprehensive list, just a list of a few so if I ever come to my senses I'll know where to go to be in a true church. C'mon Larry, hook a brutha up.

how's this, sit down with yourself and ask yourself these questionso you baptize in Jesus' name? (if the answer is "no" it is not a proper church and you should find someplace else)

Do you baptize in emersion? (if the answer is "no" you should find a different church since "baptize" is simply a transliteration of the greek word that actually means to dunk/immerse)

Do you believe there is one God? ("yes" is fine... "yes in three forms/persons" is good enough, it sucks but that terminology is not likely to go away anytime soon...)

Do you believe that speaking in tongues is still valid for the modern church? (if "no", wrong church...)

that's pretty much it... everything else is superfluous... the speaking in tongues question is just to see if it is spirit-filled or not (I know of no charismatic/spirit-filled churches that don't speak in tongues a little)

I gotta say LB....these are all examples of Religion getting in the way of your relaitonship with God. I gotta say, all these things you want us to sit down and ask ourselves have NO affect on our direct relationships with God with the exception of the Trinity. Everything else has no bearing on being saved and being in a relationship with God. Sorry to break it to you....

So you don't think actually obeying God's commands, rather than obeying the commands that idolaters have passed down through generations, is important?

 

[CrossEyed]

So much Myth, so little agreement.

There is one thing that we all agree on...seriously.

 

[larry_boy_44]

I think I am beginning to understand your non-trinity theory.  I am not saying I agree with it, but see if I understand it -

1.  Jesus = God = Holy Spirit

2.  They are not separate, they are all the same thing just called by different name based on the function they are performing

3.  In the cases where all three are manifested at the same time (i.e., the baptism of Christ where he is being baptized, the spirit descends and the Father says he is well pleased) this does not make them separate personalities because of God's omnipresence.

4.  You believe that saying they are separate and yet one implies that there are 3 Gods which denies the passage "no other Gods".

5.  Any passage referring to plurality are possible mistranslations introduced by transcripting.

i think the first four are pretty accurate from what I have read from you, but #5 I had to make an assumption so correct me if I am wrong.

1-3 are 100% right...4 is true, although I would add the small note that when the trinity was first accepted it WAS polytheistic, even if that isn't true anymore, it definately should be noted by the modern church and we should work to "fix" and changes made upon the polytheistic foundation the Catholic "Church" had from ~300-1300 AD (give or take a smidge)...

five... I understand plurally referring to God at times... in OT and in his royalty, plurally referring to him makes sense (as referring to royalty often is done that way)... referring to Jesus and the Father as seperate when you personally knew Jesus as a man makes some sense, because it is a little confusing...

I think the best example of oneness is simply this:

Jesus is said to be the First and the Last (just like the Father is) and it is Jesus who is sitting on the throne of God in Revelation... There is one throne, and Jesus occupies it...

Remember, God is a Spirit... Jesus is God (a spirit (soul)) manifest in flesh... He made himself a body and lived among us and then died for us...

but, yeah, basically you have it right, I don't think 5 is, though, because I understand pluralistic terms given to God at times, we just absolutely need to realize that God is one, period... He can show Himself to us in different ways, but it is still, in the end, God that is shown whether it is through Father, Son, or Holy Spirit...

 

[The Commish]

there are churches who haven't bought the lie, Cross...

Cool, got a list for us?

look at what they believe... this isn't difficult, Cross..

So then humor me. Give me a list of churches that haven't bought the lie.

Cross - I haven't studied the doctrine of every group on earth... I know what the Bible says is needed, I know what history says the early church did, and I would expect churches to follow those things (since they are the same)...but, as far as a list goes, it ain't gonna happen...

I didn't say a comprehensive list, just a list of a few so if I ever come to my senses I'll know where to go to be in a true church. C'mon Larry, hook a brutha up.

how's this, sit down with yourself and ask yourself these questionso you baptize in Jesus' name? (if the answer is "no" it is not a proper church and you should find someplace else)

Do you baptize in emersion? (if the answer is "no" you should find a different church since "baptize" is simply a transliteration of the greek word that actually means to dunk/immerse)

Do you believe there is one God? ("yes" is fine... "yes in three forms/persons" is good enough, it sucks but that terminology is not likely to go away anytime soon...)

Do you believe that speaking in tongues is still valid for the modern church? (if "no", wrong church...)

that's pretty much it... everything else is superfluous... the speaking in tongues question is just to see if it is spirit-filled or not (I know of no charismatic/spirit-filled churches that don't speak in tongues a little)

I gotta say LB....these are all examples of Religion getting in the way of your relaitonship with God. I gotta say, all these things you want us to sit down and ask ourselves have NO affect on our direct relationships with God with the exception of the Trinity. Everything else has no bearing on being saved and being in a relationship with God. Sorry to break it to you....

So you don't think actually obeying God's commands, rather than obeying the commands that idolaters have passed down through generations, is important?

No...let me explain my position...let's use baptism as the subject. What is important is that you be baptized. Though it's not required, it's a sacrament and I believe everyone should be baptized as a tribute to God and a testament to their relationship with him. What is NOT important is what you seem to be focusing on. I.E. if you aren't fully submersed then it doesn't count. That thought process is religion talking. There is nothing in the Bible that would indicate that sprinkling or the laying on of hands is wrong and does not equal submerssion. The account of Jesus baptism was one that had him completely submerged in the river, which was great, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to be submerged. Again....the sacrament is what is important, not the technique. Does that make more sense?

 

[Politician Spock]

there are churches who haven't bought the lie, Cross...

Cool, got a list for us?

look at what they believe... this isn't difficult, Cross..

So then humor me. Give me a list of churches that haven't bought the lie.

Cross - I haven't studied the doctrine of every group on earth... I know what the Bible says is needed, I know what history says the early church did, and I would expect churches to follow those things (since they are the same)...but, as far as a list goes, it ain't gonna happen...

I didn't say a comprehensive list, just a list of a few so if I ever come to my senses I'll know where to go to be in a true church. C'mon Larry, hook a brutha up.

how's this, sit down with yourself and ask yourself these questionso you baptize in Jesus' name? (if the answer is "no" it is not a proper church and you should find someplace else)

Do you baptize in emersion? (if the answer is "no" you should find a different church since "baptize" is simply a transliteration of the greek word that actually means to dunk/immerse)

Do you believe there is one God? ("yes" is fine... "yes in three forms/persons" is good enough, it sucks but that terminology is not likely to go away anytime soon...)

Do you believe that speaking in tongues is still valid for the modern church? (if "no", wrong church...)

that's pretty much it... everything else is superfluous... the speaking in tongues question is just to see if it is spirit-filled or not (I know of no charismatic/spirit-filled churches that don't speak in tongues a little)

I gotta say LB....these are all examples of Religion getting in the way of your relaitonship with God. I gotta say, all these things you want us to sit down and ask ourselves have NO affect on our direct relationships with God with the exception of the Trinity. Everything else has no bearing on being saved and being in a relationship with God. Sorry to break it to you....

So you don't think actually obeying God's commands, rather than obeying the commands that idolaters have passed down through generations, is important?

Why don't you respond to what he said? Why do you ALWAYS take something someone has said and respond with something like "What your really saying is..." or "In other words you are saying...", etc., etc....When your version of their argument that you use in your response is nothing more than an incredibly weak example of what they really said, it's called "straw man arguing". And you do it frequently.