The Daily Show with Jon Stewart (1 Viewer)

[fightingchick]

dwashington and Larry (and anyone else for that matter),

I'd like to ask you a serious question:

Given you believe the bible is God's inspired infallible word, I assume you believe the following verse is fulfilled prophecy:

Jeremiah 33:17 -- For this is what the LORD says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel

Would you say that Jesus fulfills this as from the line of David... albeit the kingdom is spiritual and not physical in Israel?

If Jesus didn't fulfill this, then it's false since there is no king in Jerusalem today.

Would you agree?

First let me reply to your earlier misquote. Did you leave verse 18 out on purpose: "They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture"... This happened at the cross also. This psalm should be read as a whole as the entire bible should. I can see why it doesn't make sense to you if you only read critics.

 

[dwashington]

dwashington and Larry (and anyone else for that matter),

I'd like to ask you a serious question:

Given you believe the bible is God's inspired infallible word, I assume you believe the following verse is fulfilled prophecy:

Jeremiah 33:17 -- For this is what the LORD says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel

Would you say that Jesus fulfills this as from the line of David... albeit the kingdom is spiritual and not physical in Israel?

If Jesus didn't fulfill this, then it's false since there is no king in Jerusalem today.

Would you agree?

First of all, I believe the original autographs of the Bible to be God's inspired infallible word, in light of what we're discussing, that's a big difference.Second of all, don't assume that I have all the same beliefs as larryboy (no offense bruh) in the words of Mr. Incredible when talking about Buddy, 'He's not affiliated with me!!"

Now when it comes to this scripture from Jeremiah, I'm pretty sure it's a prophetic foreshadowing of Jesus, but it's not clear whether it's talking about His 1st or 2nd coming, as highlighted in John MacArthur's Study Bible

Jeremiah 33:15 A Branch. This is the Messiah King in David's lineage, as in 23:5,6. He is the King whose reign immediately follows the second coming when He appears in power (Dan. 2:35,45; 7:13,14, 27; Matt 16:27-28;24:30; 26:64

33:17-22 God promised to fulfill the Davidic (2 Sam 17) and Priestly/Levitical (Num 25:10-13) Covenants without exception. The promise was as certain as the sure appearance of night and the incalculable number of stars or sand grains (cf. 31:35-37; 33:25,26)

 

[dwashington]

If you feel the need to respond in detail to this, open a new thread and invite me.  Those that aren't interested don't have to join or view.  But if you wish, we can discuss.

Is anyone going to do this? That'd be interesting.

I'm sure it would get way out of hand, and likely hard to follow for those interested. If FBG added a religion discussion forum (I know, doubtful!), it might be fun in there. Then those that aren't interested in topics like this, don't have to even see it bumped in this forum. But in another forum or offsite area, I'd be game. There are lots of topics/questions I'd like to pose to get insight from various sects of christians. But in here might be counter-productive.

I'd like to be in on that too..even though the discussion was diverted to the 'non-denominational' tanget, the real issue was being addressed with Jayrok breaking down (incorrect?) Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah.I'm halfway through the Misquoting Jesus book and it's VERY interesting.

But as many salvos that are being lobbed at the authenticity of the New Testament Scriptures, there isn't as much debate about the Hebrew Bible (i.e. Old Testament, Law & Prophets).

The issue then becomes, what verses of the Old Testament Scriptures were actually prophesying about Jesus.

It's good stuff.

This issue is paramount to Christianity's case. Were the hebrew scriptures pointing to Jesus? Those that are claimed to point to Jesus aren't as numbered as you'd think. There are bits and pieces here and there that are claimed to be talking about the messiah, but sometimes you need to use literary gymnastics to pull it off. Some are more cryptic than others. Various Psalms are used with verses here and there attributed to Jesus. One of the more famous ones is psalm 22.

NT writers used the first verse of this psalm as the words Jesus uttered on the cross "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

In context, this psalm is King David feeling pressure from his enemies who have surrounded him. He wants God to come save him from his enemies. The contraversial verse is 16:

Dogs have surrounded me;

a band of evil men has encircled me,

they have pierced my hands and my feet.

The problem is, the Hebrew word here doesn't translate to "pierced". It is "Ka'ari" which means "like a lion". This word 'ari is used multiple times in the Hebrew bible and is correctly translated into english as "like a lion" in every instance... except in Psalm 22:16.

The scribe/copyist wanted "pierced" for obvious reasons. Jesus was pierced on the cross. But if you read the passage, "lions" is sort of a theme there. Look at verse 21:

Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;

save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

King David wants God to rescue him from the mouth of the lions who have encircled him... his enemies.

Also, if you read this psalm you see that it's odd that they pick a few verses to attribute to Jesus on the cross, yet ignore the rest of the poem... especially where Jesus (I mean King David) wants God to "handle" his enemies for him. There are many psalms that have this same theme. He wants God to help him and not fall prey to his enemies, he wants his enemies destroyed by God, etc..

Psalm 25 for instance:

To you, O LORD, I lift up my soul;

2 in you I trust, O my God.

Do not let me be put to shame,

nor let my enemies triumph over me.

skip to verse 7 -- Remember not the sins of my youth

and my rebellious ways; according to your love remember me,

for you are good, O LORD.

Remember not my sins? Jesus didn't have sins.

Most of the rest of the psalms continue this same course. Psalm 69 is a telling one:

verse 12: Those who sit at the gate mock me, and I am the song of the drunkards.

Sounds like this is also talking about Jesus. Then verse 21: They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.

They gave vinegar to Jesus on the cross to drink. Seems like this is Jesus talking here. But then he begins to turn on his enemies with the rest of the verses. Take these verses:

verse 27 and 28:

Charge them with crime upon crime;

do not let them share in your salvation.

28 May they be blotted out of the book of life

and not be listed with the righteous

How can this be Jesus, when this person wants God to blot them out of the book of life? Jesus died for all, even his accusers/enemies.

Anyway, this is King David and the stories told and sung about him. He is surrounded by enemies who constantly beat him up as a nation.

These stories are littered throughout the Hebrew bible. The NT writers found bits and pieces of Psalms like this, and other books, and constructed phrases and events for Jesus. They did this decades after Jesus walked on earth BTW.

The Book of Mark was a novel. The writer probably didn't even mean it to be taken as a real story. The theme in many of these psalms is King David wishing for divine help against his enemies. He uses terms like "Lions roaring and lunging at me" throughout the texts.

Somewhere I did a post on another board highlighting these various passages in psalms, but I can't seem to find it.

But there are other books too. Isaiah is another one claimed to point to Jesus, the most famous being Isaiah chapter 53. The subject of the "suffering servant" is a whole other thread altogether. But you see similar themes as you do in psalms, if you read it with surrounding chapters.

For those interested, here is an article talking about Psalm 22 from the Jewish perspective. It's a good educational reading:

Psalm 22

I'm sure every Old Testament messianic prophecy can be broken down and attacked against actually pointing to Jesus as THE promised Messiah. So the first question I would ask, is Do you believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

 

[larry_boy_44]

dwashington and Larry (and anyone else for that matter),

I'd like to ask you a serious question:

Given you believe the bible is God's inspired infallible word, I assume you believe the following verse is fulfilled prophecy:

Jeremiah 33:17 -- For this is what the LORD says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel

Would you say that Jesus fulfills this as from the line of David... albeit the kingdom is spiritual and not physical in Israel?

If Jesus didn't fulfill this, then it's false since there is no king in Jerusalem today.

Would you agree?

at first glance, it was proven false well before Jesus lived/died... there was no Israeli king while they were in babylonian captivity...Jeremiah 33:12-26

12 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'In this place, desolate and without men or animals—in all its towns there will again be pastures for shepherds to rest their flocks. 13 In the towns of the hill country, of the western foothills and of the Negev, in the territory of Benjamin, in the villages around Jerusalem and in the towns of Judah, flocks will again pass under the hand of the one who counts them,' says the LORD.

14 " 'The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will fulfill the gracious promise I made to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

15 " 'In those days and at that time

I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David's line;

he will do what is just and right in the land.

16 In those days Judah will be saved

and Jerusalem will live in safety.

This is the name by which it [c] will be called:

The LORD Our Righteousness.'

17 For this is what the LORD says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, 18 nor will the priests, who are Levites, ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.' "

19 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: 20 "This is what the LORD says: 'If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night no longer come at their appointed time, 21 then my covenant with David my servant—and my covenant with the Levites who are priests ministering before me—can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne. 22 I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars of the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore.' "

23 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: 24 "Have you not noticed that these people are saying, 'The LORD has rejected the two kingdoms [d] he chose'? So they despise my people and no longer regard them as a nation. 25 This is what the LORD says: 'If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, 26 then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes [e] and have compassion on them.' "

verse 21 says the covenant can be broken...

 

[Jayrok]

First let me reply to your earlier misquote.  Did you leave verse 18 out on purpose: "They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture"...  This happened at the cross also.  This psalm should be read as a whole as the entire bible should.  I can see why it doesn't make sense to you if you only read critics.

oh.. wow. are you serious? Fightingchick, have you been paying attention? It does make perfect sense to me.

My point is that you should read the entire psalm. Christian take only select verses to attribute to Jesus. Any other verse that can't possibly be Jesus is swiftly discarded by the apologist.

That was the point. Want to look at the entire Psalm, including verse 18? ok..

PSALM 22 --

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Why are you so far from saving me,

so far from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,

by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;

you are the praise of Israel.

4 In you our fathers put their trust;

they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;

in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,

scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;

they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;

let the LORD rescue him.

Let him deliver him,

since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;

you made me trust in you

even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;

from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,

for trouble is near

and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;

strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey

open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,

and all my bones are out of joint.

My heart has turned to wax;

it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,

and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;

you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;

a band of evil men has encircled me,

they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;

people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them

and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;

O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,

my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;

save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;

in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!

All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!

Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained

the suffering of the afflicted one;

he has not hidden his face from him

but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;

before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;

they who seek the LORD will praise him—

may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth

will remember and turn to the LORD,

and all the families of the nations

will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD

and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;

all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—

those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;

future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness

to a people yet unborn—

for he has done it.

(Emphasis mine)

Jesus uttered verse 1 on the cross. When did he utter verse 6? When he called himself a worm and not a man..

Verse 13 we see that "lions are opening their mouths wide against him". The word for Pierced in verse 16 is supposed to say "lions" which fits perfectly with verse 13 and verse 21.

Verse 18 - yes, the story goes they cast lots for his clothes.

Verses 19-21 -- Jesus is asking God to deliver him from the sword and to save him from the... mouth of the lions.

Did Jesus not know his destiny? why would he ask to be saved from these people? This makes sense when you read it as King David troubled by his enemies. Not so much when you force it to be Jesus.

Verse 22 -- I will declare your name to my brothers; in the congregation I will praise you

This person is saying if God saves him from this fate, he (The person) will declare God's name to his brothers and he will praise God in the congregation. He wants a second chance at life. How can this be Jesus?

My point is only bits and pieces of Psalms like this are ripped and attributed to Jesus in the NT story. You make a good point. You should read the entire Psalm to get the context. When you read the entire chapter of these "prophetic" verses, the odds of it being Jesus go down.

Care to examine more of the psalms, figtingchick?

Read psalm 69 and you should recognize a few other verses that Jesus "uttered" on the cross. But keep reading and see if it is still Jesus talking.

 

[Jayrok]

First of all, I believe the original autographs of the Bible to be God's inspired infallible word, in light of what we're discussing, that's a big difference.

so you believe man corrupted (possibly) the word? Wonder why God would allow that.

Now when it comes to this scripture from Jeremiah, I'm pretty sure it's a prophetic foreshadowing of Jesus, but it's not clear whether it's talking about His 1st or 2nd coming, as highlighted in John MacArthur's Study Bible

Jeremiah 33:15 A Branch. This is the Messiah King in David's lineage, as in 23:5,6. He is the King whose reign immediately follows the second coming when He appears in power (Dan. 2:35,45; 7:13,14, 27; Matt 16:27-28;24:30; 26:64

33:17-22 God promised to fulfill the Davidic (2 Sam 17) and Priestly/Levitical (Num 25:10-13) Covenants without exception. The promise was as certain as the sure appearance of night and the incalculable number of stars or sand grains (cf. 31:35-37; 33:25,26)

So you believe this is Jesus when he returns in his kingdom on earth? Then you also believe that the next verse is also true, yes?

Jeremiah 33:18 -- nor will the priests, who are Levites, ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.'

So when Jesus sits on the throne of David's kingdom as verse 17 prophesies, there will also be Levite priests who stand before God "continually" to offer burnt offerings and sacrifices.

I thought Jesus did away with the need for the sacrificial system? Why is God still requiring sacrifices "for all times"? Wasn't his plan to send Jesus to be the last sacrifice?

Do you not see the problem here? Why would you accept verse 17 with no reservation, but verse 18 gets swept under the carpet by John MacArthur's Study Bible?

Jeremiah is talking about an earthly Jewish kingdom in the days after the exile. He is speaking of Hope for his nation.

 

[Jayrok]

dwashington and Larry (and anyone else for that matter),

I'd like to ask you a serious question:

Given you believe the bible is God's inspired infallible word, I assume you believe the following verse is fulfilled prophecy:

Jeremiah 33:17 -- For this is what the LORD says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel

Would you say that Jesus fulfills this as from the line of David... albeit the kingdom is spiritual and not physical in Israel? 

If Jesus didn't fulfill this, then it's false since there is no king in Jerusalem today. 

Would you agree?

at first glance, it was proven false well before Jesus lived/died... there was no Israeli king while they were in babylonian captivity...Jeremiah 33:12-26

12 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'In this place, desolate and without men or animals—in all its towns there will again be pastures for shepherds to rest their flocks. 13 In the towns of the hill country, of the western foothills and of the Negev, in the territory of Benjamin, in the villages around Jerusalem and in the towns of Judah, flocks will again pass under the hand of the one who counts them,' says the LORD.

14 " 'The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will fulfill the gracious promise I made to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

15 " 'In those days and at that time

      I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David's line;

      he will do what is just and right in the land.

16 In those days Judah will be saved

      and Jerusalem will live in safety.

      This is the name by which it [c] will be called:

      The LORD Our Righteousness.'

17 For this is what the LORD says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, 18 nor will the priests, who are Levites, ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.' "

19 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: 20 "This is what the LORD says: 'If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night no longer come at their appointed time, 21 then my covenant with David my servant—and my covenant with the Levites who are priests ministering before me—can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne. 22 I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars of the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore.' "

23 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: 24 "Have you not noticed that these people are saying, 'The LORD has rejected the two kingdoms [d] he chose'? So they despise my people and no longer regard them as a nation. 25 This is what the LORD says: 'If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, 26 then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes [e] and have compassion on them.' "

verse 21 says the covenant can be broken...

What, according to verses 20 and 21, would cause the covenant to be broken?20 "This is what the LORD says: 'If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night no longer come at their appointed time, 21 then my covenant with David my servant—and my covenant with the Levites who are priests ministering before me—can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne.

If man could prevent the sun (daytime) from coming and night from coming at their appointed times, then the covenant would be broken.

Day and night have always come on time. So this covenant was supposed to never be broken according to Jeremiah.

Yet the prophecy didn't take place.

 

[larry_boy_44]

First let me reply to your earlier misquote.  Did you leave verse 18 out on purpose: "They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture"...  This happened at the cross also.   This psalm should be read as a whole as the entire bible should.  I can see why it doesn't make sense to you if you only read critics.

oh.. wow. are you serious? Fightingchick, have you been paying attention? It does make perfect sense to me.

My point is that you should read the entire psalm. Christian take only select verses to attribute to Jesus. Any other verse that can't possibly be Jesus is swiftly discarded by the apologist.

That was the point. Want to look at the entire Psalm, including verse 18? ok..

PSALM 22 --

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Why are you so far from saving me,

so far from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,

by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;

you are the praise of Israel.

4 In you our fathers put their trust;

they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;

in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,

scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;

they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;

let the LORD rescue him.

Let him deliver him,

since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;

you made me trust in you

even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;

from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,

for trouble is near

and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;

strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey

open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,

and all my bones are out of joint.

My heart has turned to wax;

it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,

and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;

you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;

a band of evil men has encircled me,

they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;

people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them

and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;

O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,

my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;

save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;

in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!

All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!

Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained

the suffering of the afflicted one;

he has not hidden his face from him

but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;

before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;

they who seek the LORD will praise him—

may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth

will remember and turn to the LORD,

and all the families of the nations

will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD

and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;

all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—

those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;

future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness

to a people yet unborn—

for he has done it.

(Emphasis mine)

Jesus uttered verse 1 on the cross. When did he utter verse 6? When he called himself a worm and not a man..

Verse 13 we see that "lions are opening their mouths wide against him". The word for Pierced in verse 16 is supposed to say "lions" which fits perfectly with verse 13 and verse 21.

Verse 18 - yes, the story goes they cast lots for his clothes.

Verses 19-21 -- Jesus is asking God to deliver him from the sword and to save him from the... mouth of the lions.

Did Jesus not know his destiny? why would he ask to be saved from these people? This makes sense when you read it as King David troubled by his enemies. Not so much when you force it to be Jesus.

Verse 22 -- I will declare your name to my brothers; in the congregation I will praise you

This person is saying if God saves him from this fate, he (The person) will declare God's name to his brothers and he will praise God in the congregation. He wants a second chance at life. How can this be Jesus?

My point is only bits and pieces of Psalms like this are ripped and attributed to Jesus in the NT story. You make a good point. You should read the entire Psalm to get the context. When you read the entire chapter of these "prophetic" verses, the odds of it being Jesus go down.

Care to examine more of the psalms, figtingchick?

Read psalm 69 and you should recognize a few other verses that Jesus "uttered" on the cross. But keep reading and see if it is still Jesus talking.

for one, are you sure He didn't say that?and what if David is just making it "Sound good"???

ya know what I'm saying? What if David is being artsy about this and not just going "He's gonna say this and do this." I mean, this is poetry..

 

[CrossEyed]

First let me reply to your earlier misquote. Did you leave verse 18 out on purpose: "They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture"... This happened at the cross also. This psalm should be read as a whole as the entire bible should. I can see why it doesn't make sense to you if you only read critics.

oh.. wow. are you serious? Fightingchick, have you been paying attention? It does make perfect sense to me.

My point is that you should read the entire psalm. Christian take only select verses to attribute to Jesus. Any other verse that can't possibly be Jesus is swiftly discarded by the apologist.

That was the point. Want to look at the entire Psalm, including verse 18? ok..

PSALM 22 --

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Why are you so far from saving me,

so far from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,

by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;

you are the praise of Israel.

4 In you our fathers put their trust;

they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;

in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,

scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;

they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;

let the LORD rescue him.

Let him deliver him,

since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;

you made me trust in you

even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;

from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,

for trouble is near

and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;

strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey

open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,

and all my bones are out of joint.

My heart has turned to wax;

it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,

and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;

you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;

a band of evil men has encircled me,

they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;

people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them

and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;

O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,

my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;

save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;

in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!

All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!

Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained

the suffering of the afflicted one;

he has not hidden his face from him

but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;

before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;

they who seek the LORD will praise him—

may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth

will remember and turn to the LORD,

and all the families of the nations

will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD

and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;

all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—

those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;

future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness

to a people yet unborn—

for he has done it.

(Emphasis mine)

Jesus uttered verse 1 on the cross. When did he utter verse 6? When he called himself a worm and not a man..

Verse 13 we see that "lions are opening their mouths wide against him". The word for Pierced in verse 16 is supposed to say "lions" which fits perfectly with verse 13 and verse 21.

Verse 18 - yes, the story goes they cast lots for his clothes.

Verses 19-21 -- Jesus is asking God to deliver him from the sword and to save him from the... mouth of the lions.

Did Jesus not know his destiny? why would he ask to be saved from these people? This makes sense when you read it as King David troubled by his enemies. Not so much when you force it to be Jesus.

Verse 22 -- I will declare your name to my brothers; in the congregation I will praise you

This person is saying if God saves him from this fate, he (The person) will declare God's name to his brothers and he will praise God in the congregation. He wants a second chance at life. How can this be Jesus?

My point is only bits and pieces of Psalms like this are ripped and attributed to Jesus in the NT story. You make a good point. You should read the entire Psalm to get the context. When you read the entire chapter of these "prophetic" verses, the odds of it being Jesus go down.

Care to examine more of the psalms, figtingchick?

Read psalm 69 and you should recognize a few other verses that Jesus "uttered" on the cross. But keep reading and see if it is still Jesus talking.

Just a couple of comments. Yes, Jesus knew His fate. But He was also a man with some of the weaknesses that come with being a man. In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus was very emotional and very feraful. So much so that he sweat blood (a real medical condition, particularly when someone is under an enormous amount of stress). And He asked "if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me". So why is it so shocking that this Psalm would also ask for deliverance?Verse 22 says "I will declare your name to my brothers;

in the congregation I will praise you"

Nowhere does it say "if you rescue me." You are making an assumption here that isn't in the text.

I'm not sure what you are saying about pierced and lions. If you substitute the word lions for the word pierced, the sentence makes no sense.

 

[Koya]

Oy Vey.

 

[Jayrok]

I do agree, the OT is much, much more validated than the NT..

You should pick up a copy of the book "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

 

[larry_boy_44]

dwashington and Larry (and anyone else for that matter),

I'd like to ask you a serious question:

Given you believe the bible is God's inspired infallible word, I assume you believe the following verse is fulfilled prophecy:

Jeremiah 33:17 -- For this is what the LORD says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel

Would you say that Jesus fulfills this as from the line of David... albeit the kingdom is spiritual and not physical in Israel? 

If Jesus didn't fulfill this, then it's false since there is no king in Jerusalem today. 

Would you agree?

at first glance, it was proven false well before Jesus lived/died... there was no Israeli king while they were in babylonian captivity...Jeremiah 33:12-26

12 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'In this place, desolate and without men or animals—in all its towns there will again be pastures for shepherds to rest their flocks. 13 In the towns of the hill country, of the western foothills and of the Negev, in the territory of Benjamin, in the villages around Jerusalem and in the towns of Judah, flocks will again pass under the hand of the one who counts them,' says the LORD.

14 " 'The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will fulfill the gracious promise I made to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

15 " 'In those days and at that time

       I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David's line;

       he will do what is just and right in the land.

16 In those days Judah will be saved

       and Jerusalem will live in safety.

       This is the name by which it [c] will be called:

       The LORD Our Righteousness.'

17 For this is what the LORD says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, 18 nor will the priests, who are Levites, ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.' "

19 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: 20 "This is what the LORD says: 'If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night no longer come at their appointed time, 21 then my covenant with David my servant—and my covenant with the Levites who are priests ministering before me—can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne. 22 I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars of the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore.' "

23 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: 24 "Have you not noticed that these people are saying, 'The LORD has rejected the two kingdoms [d] he chose'? So they despise my people and no longer regard them as a nation. 25 This is what the LORD says: 'If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, 26 then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes [e] and have compassion on them.' "

verse 21 says the covenant can be broken...

What, according to verses 20 and 21, would cause the covenant to be broken?20 "This is what the LORD says: 'If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night no longer come at their appointed time, 21 then my covenant with David my servant—and my covenant with the Levites who are priests ministering before me—can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne.

If man could prevent the sun (daytime) from coming and night from coming at their appointed times, then the covenant would be broken.

Day and night have always come on time. So this covenant was supposed to never be broken according to Jeremiah.

Yet the prophecy didn't take place.

for one, no, day and night have not ALWAYS come on time, sun standing still down? lolSecond, the covenant God made with day and night is with day and night, the covenant made with David & the Levites are with David and the Levites...

You don't see any Levites anymore, either, do you? I mean, really, that was said not that long before the Kingdom of Israel was pretty much completely destroyed...

HOWEVER, looking at verse 23-26, was Jeremiah after Israel already had fallen? I don't remember... If it was, 23-26 talks about how God will RESTORE the two lines (both Levitical and Royal)... which could be referring to Jesus & Christians (the new priesthood)

 

[Jayrok]

First let me reply to your earlier misquote.  Did you leave verse 18 out on purpose: "They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture"...  This happened at the cross also.   This psalm should be read as a whole as the entire bible should.  I can see why it doesn't make sense to you if you only read critics.

oh.. wow. are you serious? Fightingchick, have you been paying attention? It does make perfect sense to me.

My point is that you should read the entire psalm. Christian take only select verses to attribute to Jesus. Any other verse that can't possibly be Jesus is swiftly discarded by the apologist.

That was the point. Want to look at the entire Psalm, including verse 18? ok..

PSALM 22 --

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Why are you so far from saving me,

so far from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,

by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;

you are the praise of Israel.

4 In you our fathers put their trust;

they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;

in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,

scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;

they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;

let the LORD rescue him.

Let him deliver him,

since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;

you made me trust in you

even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;

from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,

for trouble is near

and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;

strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey

open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,

and all my bones are out of joint.

My heart has turned to wax;

it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,

and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;

you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;

a band of evil men has encircled me,

they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;

people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them

and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;

O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,

my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;

save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;

in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!

All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!

Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained

the suffering of the afflicted one;

he has not hidden his face from him

but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;

before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;

they who seek the LORD will praise him—

may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth

will remember and turn to the LORD,

and all the families of the nations

will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD

and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;

all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—

those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;

future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness

to a people yet unborn—

for he has done it.

(Emphasis mine)

Jesus uttered verse 1 on the cross. When did he utter verse 6? When he called himself a worm and not a man..

Verse 13 we see that "lions are opening their mouths wide against him". The word for Pierced in verse 16 is supposed to say "lions" which fits perfectly with verse 13 and verse 21.

Verse 18 - yes, the story goes they cast lots for his clothes.

Verses 19-21 -- Jesus is asking God to deliver him from the sword and to save him from the... mouth of the lions.

Did Jesus not know his destiny? why would he ask to be saved from these people? This makes sense when you read it as King David troubled by his enemies. Not so much when you force it to be Jesus.

Verse 22 -- I will declare your name to my brothers; in the congregation I will praise you

This person is saying if God saves him from this fate, he (The person) will declare God's name to his brothers and he will praise God in the congregation. He wants a second chance at life. How can this be Jesus?

My point is only bits and pieces of Psalms like this are ripped and attributed to Jesus in the NT story. You make a good point. You should read the entire Psalm to get the context. When you read the entire chapter of these "prophetic" verses, the odds of it being Jesus go down.

Care to examine more of the psalms, figtingchick?

Read psalm 69 and you should recognize a few other verses that Jesus "uttered" on the cross. But keep reading and see if it is still Jesus talking.

for one, are you sure He didn't say that?and what if David is just making it "Sound good"???

ya know what I'm saying? What if David is being artsy about this and not just going "He's gonna say this and do this." I mean, this is poetry..

David is just making it sound good. This is poetry. What if the NT passion writers just picked at this poem to make Jesus' story sound good? Is that impossible?

 

[CrossEyed]

dwashington and Larry (and anyone else for that matter),

I'd like to ask you a serious question:

Given you believe the bible is God's inspired infallible word, I assume you believe the following verse is fulfilled prophecy:

Jeremiah 33:17 -- For this is what the LORD says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel

Would you say that Jesus fulfills this as from the line of David... albeit the kingdom is spiritual and not physical in Israel?

If Jesus didn't fulfill this, then it's false since there is no king in Jerusalem today.

Would you agree?

What is the problem with Jesus fulfilling this?

 

[larry_boy_44]

I do agree, the OT is much, much more validated than the NT..

You should pick up a copy of the book "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

why?and I'm not saying that the OT is completely accurate, just that it is "kept better" if that makes sense... less editing has been done with the OT and it was picked by people who were following God more than the Catholics in the 4th Century...

you think Cross' head exploded when he read my "does it matter if Jesus did <insert miracle here>" post?

 

[Jayrok]

Just a couple of comments. Yes, Jesus knew His fate. But He was also a man with some of the weaknesses that come with being a man. In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus was very emotional and very feraful. So much so that he sweat blood (a real medical condition, particularly when someone is under an enormous amount of stress). And He asked "if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me". So why is it so shocking that this Psalm would also ask for deliverance?

Verse 22 says "I will declare your name to my brothers;

in the congregation I will praise you"

Nowhere does it say "if you rescue me." You are making an assumption here that isn't in the text.

I'm not sure what you are saying about pierced and lions. If you substitute the word lions for the word pierced, the sentence makes no sense.

Who was with Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane when he was praying to actually write what he said? How do we know then? If it is just a story, there isn't a need for an eye witness.

Not only does he ask for deliverance, he asks for his enemies to be destroyed, to be shamed and blotted out of the book of life. Not in psalm22, but in following psalms along the same "help me" theme.

It isn't just the word "lions". Hebrew is not a language like our own. The word translates as "Like a lion". So it read, "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet". David constantly uses this metaphor for his enemies throughout his writings.

The jewish website I linked breaks it down into great detail.

 

[larry_boy_44]

for one, are you sure He didn't say that?

and what if David is just making it "Sound good"???

ya know what I'm saying? What if David is being artsy about this and not just going "He's gonna say this and do this." I mean, this is poetry..

David is just making it sound good. This is poetry. What if the NT passion writers just picked at this poem to make Jesus' story sound good? Is that impossible?

yes, that is possible...

 

[Jayrok]

dwashington and Larry (and anyone else for that matter),

I'd like to ask you a serious question:

Given you believe the bible is God's inspired infallible word, I assume you believe the following verse is fulfilled prophecy:

Jeremiah 33:17 -- For this is what the LORD says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel

Would you say that Jesus fulfills this as from the line of David... albeit the kingdom is spiritual and not physical in Israel? 

If Jesus didn't fulfill this, then it's false since there is no king in Jerusalem today. 

Would you agree?

What is the problem with Jesus fulfilling this?

nothing at all. I was just wondering if the Levite priests are also with Jesus offering sacrifices for the nation of Israel to God like the very next verse prophesies. Those verses go together.

 

[CrossEyed]

Just a couple of comments. Yes, Jesus knew His fate. But He was also a man with some of the weaknesses that come with being a man. In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus was very emotional and very feraful. So much so that he sweat blood (a real medical condition, particularly when someone is under an enormous amount of stress). And He asked "if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me". So why is it so shocking that this Psalm would also ask for deliverance?

Verse 22 says "I will declare your name to my brothers;

in the congregation I will praise you"

Nowhere does it say "if you rescue me." You are making an assumption here that isn't in the text.

I'm not sure what you are saying about pierced and lions. If you substitute the word lions for the word pierced, the sentence makes no sense.

Who was with Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane when he was praying to actually write what he said? How do we know then? If it is just a story, there isn't a need for an eye witness.

Not only does he ask for deliverance, he asks for his enemies to be destroyed, to be shamed and blotted out of the book of life. Not in psalm22, but in following psalms along the same "help me" theme.

It isn't just the word "lions". Hebrew is not a language like our own. The word translates as "Like a lion". So it read, "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet". David constantly uses this metaphor for his enemies throughout his writings.

The jewish website I linked breaks it down into great detail.

1) Holy Spirit.2) His enemies will be destroyed and have been blotted out of the Book of Life.

I still don't see what the problem is.

 

[larry_boy_44]

Just a couple of comments.  Yes, Jesus knew His fate.  But He was also a man with some of the weaknesses that come with being a man.  In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus was very emotional and very feraful.  So much so that he sweat blood (a real medical condition, particularly when someone is under an enormous amount of stress).  And He asked "if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me".  So why is it so shocking that this Psalm would also ask for deliverance?

Verse 22 says "I will declare your name to my brothers;

      in the congregation I will praise you" 

Nowhere does it say "if you rescue me."  You are making an assumption here that isn't in the text.

I'm not sure what you are saying about pierced and lions.  If you substitute the word lions for the word pierced, the sentence makes no sense.

Who was with Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane when he was praying to actually write what he said? How do we know then? If it is just a story, there isn't a need for an eye witness.

Not only does he ask for deliverance, he asks for his enemies to be destroyed, to be shamed and blotted out of the book of life. Not in psalm22, but in following psalms along the same "help me" theme.

It isn't just the word "lions". Hebrew is not a language like our own. The word translates as "Like a lion". So it read, "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet". David constantly uses this metaphor for his enemies throughout his writings.

The jewish website I linked breaks it down into great detail.

stop asking un-answerable obvious questions like that... seriously... thakns...

no, seriously, how did they know what happened in the garden? Was that just "artistic description"?? Were they just making the mythical story of Jesus (using myth as "sacred story" not "false") sound better?

 

[CrossEyed]

dwashington and Larry (and anyone else for that matter),

I'd like to ask you a serious question:

Given you believe the bible is God's inspired infallible word, I assume you believe the following verse is fulfilled prophecy:

Jeremiah 33:17 -- For this is what the LORD says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel

Would you say that Jesus fulfills this as from the line of David... albeit the kingdom is spiritual and not physical in Israel?

If Jesus didn't fulfill this, then it's false since there is no king in Jerusalem today.

Would you agree?

What is the problem with Jesus fulfilling this?

nothing at all. I was just wondering if the Levite priests are also with Jesus offering sacrifices for the nation of Israel to God like the very next verse prophesies. Those verses go together.

Jesus is both King and Priest.

 

[Jayrok]

for one, no, day and night have not ALWAYS come on time, sun standing still down? lol

Please tell me your joking there.

Second, the covenant God made with day and night is with day and night, the covenant made with David & the Levites are with David and the Levites...

You don't see any Levites anymore, either, do you? I mean, really, that was said not that long before the Kingdom of Israel was pretty much completely destroyed...

HOWEVER, looking at verse 23-26, was Jeremiah after Israel already had fallen? I don't remember... If it was, 23-26 talks about how God will RESTORE the two lines (both Levitical and Royal)... which could be referring to Jesus & Christians (the new priesthood)

Jeremiah was writing from babylon during the exile. This was after babylon swept through and spanked them. Jeremiah is writing of national hope for a restored Judaic kingdom.. like in the old days. I think you're confusing covenants here. God said the only way he will break his covenant with David's like... to restore the kingdom in Jerusalem is if day and night ceased to occur normally.

Since this is impossible, thus God is saying he won't go back on his word about the Davidic line of kings. It's akin to saying "if there aren't 10 fingers on your hand, then I don't love you". Of course there are ten fingers.. and of course the person loves the other.

There actually were kings after David and Solomon. King Josiah was considered one of the greatest since David. He was considered by many Jews as the messiah king. He took over at 8 years old when his father was murdered. He reigned for like 30 years or so IIRC.

He reestablished the sacrificial system in the Temple and was right in the eyes of God (it is written in Kings). Unfortunately he was killed too and his son was a bad king. He turned back from God and allowed Idols in the temple. At some point, they lost the kingdom completely. And there hasn't been a king since.

 

[Jayrok]

Just a couple of comments.  Yes, Jesus knew His fate.  But He was also a man with some of the weaknesses that come with being a man.  In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus was very emotional and very feraful.  So much so that he sweat blood (a real medical condition, particularly when someone is under an enormous amount of stress).  And He asked "if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me".  So why is it so shocking that this Psalm would also ask for deliverance?

Verse 22 says "I will declare your name to my brothers;

       in the congregation I will praise you" 

Nowhere does it say "if you rescue me."  You are making an assumption here that isn't in the text.

I'm not sure what you are saying about pierced and lions.  If you substitute the word lions for the word pierced, the sentence makes no sense.

Who was with Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane when he was praying to actually write what he said? How do we know then? If it is just a story, there isn't a need for an eye witness.

Not only does he ask for deliverance, he asks for his enemies to be destroyed, to be shamed and blotted out of the book of life. Not in psalm22, but in following psalms along the same "help me" theme.

It isn't just the word "lions". Hebrew is not a language like our own. The word translates as "Like a lion". So it read, "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet". David constantly uses this metaphor for his enemies throughout his writings.

The jewish website I linked breaks it down into great detail.

stop asking un-answerable obvious questions like that... seriously... thakns...

no, seriously, how did they know what happened in the garden? Was that just "artistic description"?? Were they just making the mythical story of Jesus (using myth as "sacred story" not "false") sound better?

so the Holy Spirit whispered in their ear?Then why are there contradictions in the accounts? Did the HS whisper different things to different authors?

 

[larry_boy_44]

for one, no, day and night have not ALWAYS come on time, sun standing still down? lol

Please tell me your joking there.

Second, the covenant God made with day and night is with day and night, the covenant made with David & the Levites are with David and the Levites...

You don't see any Levites anymore, either, do you? I mean, really, that was said not that long before the Kingdom of Israel was pretty much completely destroyed...

HOWEVER, looking at verse 23-26, was Jeremiah after Israel already had fallen? I don't remember... If it was, 23-26 talks about how God will RESTORE the two lines (both Levitical and Royal)... which could be referring to Jesus & Christians (the new priesthood)

Jeremiah was writing from babylon during the exile. This was after babylon swept through and spanked them. Jeremiah is writing of national hope for a restored Judaic kingdom.. like in the old days. I think you're confusing covenants here. God said the only way he will break his covenant with David's like... to restore the kingdom in Jerusalem is if day and night ceased to occur normally.

Since this is impossible, thus God is saying he won't go back on his word about the Davidic line of kings. It's akin to saying "if there aren't 10 fingers on your hand, then I don't love you". Of course there are ten fingers.. and of course the person loves the other.

There actually were kings after David and Solomon. King Josiah was considered one of the greatest since David. He was considered by many Jews as the messiah king. He took over at 8 years old when his father was murdered. He reigned for like 30 years or so IIRC.

He reestablished the sacrificial system in the Temple and was right in the eyes of God (it is written in Kings). Unfortunately he was killed too and his son was a bad king. He turned back from God and allowed Idols in the temple. At some point, they lost the kingdom completely. And there hasn't been a king since.

it was kind of a joke, but the Bible does speak of the sun standing still... (which, assuming God is all-powerful IS possible)adn I know there were kings after David & Solomon, I thought Jeremiah was before the exile... since it was after the exile... Yes, it was referring to Jesus (the King) & Christians (the Priesthood)...

 

[CrossEyed]

Just a couple of comments. Yes, Jesus knew His fate. But He was also a man with some of the weaknesses that come with being a man. In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus was very emotional and very feraful. So much so that he sweat blood (a real medical condition, particularly when someone is under an enormous amount of stress). And He asked "if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me". So why is it so shocking that this Psalm would also ask for deliverance?

Verse 22 says "I will declare your name to my brothers;

in the congregation I will praise you"

Nowhere does it say "if you rescue me." You are making an assumption here that isn't in the text.

I'm not sure what you are saying about pierced and lions. If you substitute the word lions for the word pierced, the sentence makes no sense.

Who was with Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane when he was praying to actually write what he said? How do we know then? If it is just a story, there isn't a need for an eye witness.

Not only does he ask for deliverance, he asks for his enemies to be destroyed, to be shamed and blotted out of the book of life. Not in psalm22, but in following psalms along the same "help me" theme.

It isn't just the word "lions". Hebrew is not a language like our own. The word translates as "Like a lion". So it read, "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet". David constantly uses this metaphor for his enemies throughout his writings.

The jewish website I linked breaks it down into great detail.

stop asking un-answerable obvious questions like that... seriously... thakns...

no, seriously, how did they know what happened in the garden? Was that just "artistic description"?? Were they just making the mythical story of Jesus (using myth as "sacred story" not "false") sound better?

so the Holy Spirit whispered in their ear?Then why are there contradictions in the accounts? Did the HS whisper different things to different authors?

Different perspectives <> contradictions.

 

[Jayrok]

I do agree, the OT is much, much more validated than the NT..

You should pick up a copy of the book "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

why?and I'm not saying that the OT is completely accurate, just that it is "kept better" if that makes sense... less editing has been done with the OT and it was picked by people who were following God more than the Catholics in the 4th Century...

you think Cross' head exploded when he read my "does it matter if Jesus did <insert miracle here>" post?

It's a fascinating book. It's the latest archaeology discoveries in the holy lands. It tells the story exclusively of the OT from archaeology.Most of the events and characters in the OT are historical. Well, the kings as listed in the bible existed. The patriarchs likely did not.

But the book talks about only the OT hebrews. Good book.

 

[larry_boy_44]

I do agree, the OT is much, much more validated than the NT..

You should pick up a copy of the book "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

why?and I'm not saying that the OT is completely accurate, just that it is "kept better" if that makes sense... less editing has been done with the OT and it was picked by people who were following God more than the Catholics in the 4th Century...

you think Cross' head exploded when he read my "does it matter if Jesus did <insert miracle here>" post?

It's a fascinating book. It's the latest archaeology discoveries in the holy lands. It tells the story exclusively of the OT from archaeology.Most of the events and characters in the OT are historical. Well, the kings as listed in the bible existed. The patriarchs likely did not.

But the book talks about only the OT hebrews. Good book.

sounds interesting...<joke>

when can I expect the movie??

</joke>

I don't think that, even if they did exist, we would find archeological evedence of the Patriarchs, they were a nomadic tribe still at that point...

 

[Jayrok]

Just a couple of comments.  Yes, Jesus knew His fate.  But He was also a man with some of the weaknesses that come with being a man.  In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus was very emotional and very feraful.  So much so that he sweat blood (a real medical condition, particularly when someone is under an enormous amount of stress).  And He asked "if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me".  So why is it so shocking that this Psalm would also ask for deliverance?

Verse 22 says "I will declare your name to my brothers;

      in the congregation I will praise you" 

Nowhere does it say "if you rescue me."  You are making an assumption here that isn't in the text.

I'm not sure what you are saying about pierced and lions.  If you substitute the word lions for the word pierced, the sentence makes no sense.

Who was with Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane when he was praying to actually write what he said? How do we know then? If it is just a story, there isn't a need for an eye witness.

Not only does he ask for deliverance, he asks for his enemies to be destroyed, to be shamed and blotted out of the book of life. Not in psalm22, but in following psalms along the same "help me" theme.

It isn't just the word "lions". Hebrew is not a language like our own. The word translates as "Like a lion". So it read, "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet". David constantly uses this metaphor for his enemies throughout his writings.

The jewish website I linked breaks it down into great detail.

1) Holy Spirit.2) His enemies will be destroyed and have been blotted out of the Book of Life.

I still don't see what the problem is.

So Jesus wanted the men who captured him, beat him and string him up on the cross to be blotted out of the book of life? Doesn't seem like something he wanted since his death marked the beginning of grace for all. Wouldn't he want these men to accept his sacrifice and be saved?

And if he wanted these people to be destroyed, why did he say "forgive them father, they know not what they do?"

 

[CrossEyed]

we were kind talking about this in my religion class, and the question came up was like, would you still believe if Jesus didn't actually walk on water? And I was like "yes"...

so the question was "What is necessary to have happened at minimum" and, honestly, the only thing I really absolutely believe happened is the ressurection, I don't even care about the rest of it, ya know?

Did He walk on water? I think so, but it doesn't matter...

Did He heal those lepers? I think so, but it doesn't matter...

Did He raise Jarius' daughter? Did Jarius or his daughter even exist? I think so, but it doesn't matter...

Did He raise Lazurus from the dead? I think so, but it doesn't matter...

They all go hand-in-hand though as far as credibility. It's hard to believe that the Bible is the divinely inspired word of an infallible and omniscient god if it's filled with a bunch of crap that didn't really happen.Jesus either did or did not rise from the dead, and in the grand scheme that is all that matters. But to believe that it happened, I would need to believe that the Bible is God's word. To believe that, I would need to believe that it's without error. Which means I'd need to believe the other stories.

VERY

 

[CrossEyed]

Just a couple of comments. Yes, Jesus knew His fate. But He was also a man with some of the weaknesses that come with being a man. In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus was very emotional and very feraful. So much so that he sweat blood (a real medical condition, particularly when someone is under an enormous amount of stress). And He asked "if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me". So why is it so shocking that this Psalm would also ask for deliverance?

Verse 22 says "I will declare your name to my brothers;

in the congregation I will praise you"

Nowhere does it say "if you rescue me." You are making an assumption here that isn't in the text.

I'm not sure what you are saying about pierced and lions. If you substitute the word lions for the word pierced, the sentence makes no sense.

Who was with Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane when he was praying to actually write what he said? How do we know then? If it is just a story, there isn't a need for an eye witness.

Not only does he ask for deliverance, he asks for his enemies to be destroyed, to be shamed and blotted out of the book of life. Not in psalm22, but in following psalms along the same "help me" theme.

It isn't just the word "lions". Hebrew is not a language like our own. The word translates as "Like a lion". So it read, "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet". David constantly uses this metaphor for his enemies throughout his writings.

The jewish website I linked breaks it down into great detail.

1) Holy Spirit.2) His enemies will be destroyed and have been blotted out of the Book of Life.

I still don't see what the problem is.

So Jesus wanted the men who captured him, beat him and string him up on the cross to be blotted out of the book of life? Doesn't seem like something he wanted since his death marked the beginning of grace for all. Wouldn't he want these men to accept his sacrifice and be saved?

And if he wanted these people to be destroyed, why did he say "forgive them father, they know not what they do?"

All are offered forgiveness. But forgiveness is only effectual for those who receive it. Jesus' true enemies did not and would not receive it. They are blotted out of the Book of Life.

 

[Jayrok]

I do agree, the OT is much, much more validated than the NT..

You should pick up a copy of the book "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

why?and I'm not saying that the OT is completely accurate, just that it is "kept better" if that makes sense... less editing has been done with the OT and it was picked by people who were following God more than the Catholics in the 4th Century...

you think Cross' head exploded when he read my "does it matter if Jesus did <insert miracle here>" post?

It's a fascinating book. It's the latest archaeology discoveries in the holy lands. It tells the story exclusively of the OT from archaeology.Most of the events and characters in the OT are historical. Well, the kings as listed in the bible existed. The patriarchs likely did not.

But the book talks about only the OT hebrews. Good book.

sounds interesting...<joke>

when can I expect the movie??

</joke>

I don't think that, even if they did exist, we would find archeological evedence of the Patriarchs, they were a nomadic tribe still at that point...

You'd be surprised what modern archaeology can discover about ancient times. They found small, scattered camp sites of Egyptian military outposts along the borders of egypt, but not a trace of 1,000,000 Jewish escapees during the exodus. No pottery, no tools.. nothing. Yet we are to believe that after 40 years of wandering, Joshua had enough power to completely destroy armies in Canaan.The book talks about King david's kingdom. Archaeology shows that during the time David was ruling, Jerusalem was not much more than a village. Much less a far reaching kingdom of power. David was more like a chieftain than a mightly King. But in print, he was larger than life.

Some towns named in the bible didn't even exist during the time frame they were purported to exist. Which means it's probable that the writing took place much later than we think. Same with Abraham. The bible talks about his camel caravans as nomads. Camels weren't domesticated for hundreds of years after Abraham's alleged life.

The Jews were actually canaanites. They needed a beginning for their distinction and Abraham was born.

 

[Jayrok]

Just a couple of comments.  Yes, Jesus knew His fate.  But He was also a man with some of the weaknesses that come with being a man.  In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus was very emotional and very feraful.  So much so that he sweat blood (a real medical condition, particularly when someone is under an enormous amount of stress).  And He asked "if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me".  So why is it so shocking that this Psalm would also ask for deliverance?

Verse 22 says "I will declare your name to my brothers;

       in the congregation I will praise you" 

Nowhere does it say "if you rescue me."  You are making an assumption here that isn't in the text.

I'm not sure what you are saying about pierced and lions.  If you substitute the word lions for the word pierced, the sentence makes no sense.

Who was with Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane when he was praying to actually write what he said? How do we know then? If it is just a story, there isn't a need for an eye witness.

Not only does he ask for deliverance, he asks for his enemies to be destroyed, to be shamed and blotted out of the book of life. Not in psalm22, but in following psalms along the same "help me" theme.

It isn't just the word "lions". Hebrew is not a language like our own. The word translates as "Like a lion". So it read, "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet". David constantly uses this metaphor for his enemies throughout his writings.

The jewish website I linked breaks it down into great detail.

stop asking un-answerable obvious questions like that... seriously... thakns...

no, seriously, how did they know what happened in the garden? Was that just "artistic description"?? Were they just making the mythical story of Jesus (using myth as "sacred story" not "false") sound better?

so the Holy Spirit whispered in their ear?Then why are there contradictions in the accounts? Did the HS whisper different things to different authors?

Different perspectives <> contradictions.Jesus is both King and Priest.

There are different perspectives, yes. But there are contradictions as well. The resurrection stories hopelessly contradict. I hope you don't think they can be harmonized. I've read them all (attempts at harmonization I mean). Lots of gymnastics going on there if you know what I mean.

 

[CrossEyed]

I do agree, the OT is much, much more validated than the NT..

You should pick up a copy of the book "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

why?and I'm not saying that the OT is completely accurate, just that it is "kept better" if that makes sense... less editing has been done with the OT and it was picked by people who were following God more than the Catholics in the 4th Century...

you think Cross' head exploded when he read my "does it matter if Jesus did <insert miracle here>" post?

It's a fascinating book. It's the latest archaeology discoveries in the holy lands. It tells the story exclusively of the OT from archaeology.Most of the events and characters in the OT are historical. Well, the kings as listed in the bible existed. The patriarchs likely did not.

But the book talks about only the OT hebrews. Good book.

What a shock that someone who's beliefs exist from picking and choosing certain verses doesn't believe that all of Scripture is accurate.

 

[Jayrok]

Just a couple of comments.  Yes, Jesus knew His fate.  But He was also a man with some of the weaknesses that come with being a man.  In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus was very emotional and very feraful.  So much so that he sweat blood (a real medical condition, particularly when someone is under an enormous amount of stress).  And He asked "if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me".  So why is it so shocking that this Psalm would also ask for deliverance?

Verse 22 says "I will declare your name to my brothers;

      in the congregation I will praise you" 

Nowhere does it say "if you rescue me."  You are making an assumption here that isn't in the text.

I'm not sure what you are saying about pierced and lions.  If you substitute the word lions for the word pierced, the sentence makes no sense.

Who was with Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane when he was praying to actually write what he said? How do we know then? If it is just a story, there isn't a need for an eye witness.

Not only does he ask for deliverance, he asks for his enemies to be destroyed, to be shamed and blotted out of the book of life. Not in psalm22, but in following psalms along the same "help me" theme.

It isn't just the word "lions". Hebrew is not a language like our own. The word translates as "Like a lion". So it read, "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet". David constantly uses this metaphor for his enemies throughout his writings.

The jewish website I linked breaks it down into great detail.

1) Holy Spirit.2) His enemies will be destroyed and have been blotted out of the Book of Life.

I still don't see what the problem is.

So Jesus wanted the men who captured him, beat him and string him up on the cross to be blotted out of the book of life? Doesn't seem like something he wanted since his death marked the beginning of grace for all. Wouldn't he want these men to accept his sacrifice and be saved?

And if he wanted these people to be destroyed, why did he say "forgive them father, they know not what they do?"

All are offered forgiveness. But forgiveness is only effectual for those who receive it. Jesus' true enemies did not and would not receive it. They are blotted out of the Book of Life.

Now you're getting back to the NT message. Don't you see what was going on in books like Jeremiah? Ok, I'll play... How do we know those men wouldn't receive his gift years later? The way it reads, the person in Psalms doesn't want forgiveness for anyone. He wants revenge for those standing opposed to him.

And when did Jesus call himself a worm?

 

[CrossEyed]

Just a couple of comments. Yes, Jesus knew His fate. But He was also a man with some of the weaknesses that come with being a man. In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus was very emotional and very feraful. So much so that he sweat blood (a real medical condition, particularly when someone is under an enormous amount of stress). And He asked "if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me". So why is it so shocking that this Psalm would also ask for deliverance?

Verse 22 says "I will declare your name to my brothers;

in the congregation I will praise you"

Nowhere does it say "if you rescue me." You are making an assumption here that isn't in the text.

I'm not sure what you are saying about pierced and lions. If you substitute the word lions for the word pierced, the sentence makes no sense.

Who was with Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane when he was praying to actually write what he said? How do we know then? If it is just a story, there isn't a need for an eye witness.

Not only does he ask for deliverance, he asks for his enemies to be destroyed, to be shamed and blotted out of the book of life. Not in psalm22, but in following psalms along the same "help me" theme.

It isn't just the word "lions". Hebrew is not a language like our own. The word translates as "Like a lion". So it read, "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet". David constantly uses this metaphor for his enemies throughout his writings.

The jewish website I linked breaks it down into great detail.

1) Holy Spirit.2) His enemies will be destroyed and have been blotted out of the Book of Life.

I still don't see what the problem is.

So Jesus wanted the men who captured him, beat him and string him up on the cross to be blotted out of the book of life? Doesn't seem like something he wanted since his death marked the beginning of grace for all. Wouldn't he want these men to accept his sacrifice and be saved?

And if he wanted these people to be destroyed, why did he say "forgive them father, they know not what they do?"

All are offered forgiveness. But forgiveness is only effectual for those who receive it. Jesus' true enemies did not and would not receive it. They are blotted out of the Book of Life.

Now you're getting back to the NT message. Don't you see what was going on in books like Jeremiah? Ok, I'll play... How do we know those men wouldn't receive his gift years later? The way it reads, the person in Psalms doesn't want forgiveness for anyone. He wants revenge for those standing opposed to him.

And when did Jesus call himself a worm?

1) An omniscient God knew who His enemies were since before the beginning of time. Really not a big deal for Him to pronounce judgment on them.2) John 21:25

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

I do agree, the OT is much, much more validated than the NT..

You should pick up a copy of the book "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

why?and I'm not saying that the OT is completely accurate, just that it is "kept better" if that makes sense... less editing has been done with the OT and it was picked by people who were following God more than the Catholics in the 4th Century...

you think Cross' head exploded when he read my "does it matter if Jesus did <insert miracle here>" post?

I don't know if Cross' head exploded, but the statement did surprise me. After all, your religion - you know, the one that claims I am going to Hell, wuld seem to be one that would not parse any words or stories from the bible. After all, isn't it you that is hung up on the wording of certain passages that you have used to "prove" that the rest of us heathens are hellbound?

 

[Jayrok]

I do agree, the OT is much, much more validated than the NT..

You should pick up a copy of the book "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

why?and I'm not saying that the OT is completely accurate, just that it is "kept better" if that makes sense... less editing has been done with the OT and it was picked by people who were following God more than the Catholics in the 4th Century...

you think Cross' head exploded when he read my "does it matter if Jesus did <insert miracle here>" post?

It's a fascinating book. It's the latest archaeology discoveries in the holy lands. It tells the story exclusively of the OT from archaeology.Most of the events and characters in the OT are historical. Well, the kings as listed in the bible existed. The patriarchs likely did not.

But the book talks about only the OT hebrews. Good book.

What a shock that someone who's beliefs exist from picking and choosing certain verses doesn't believe that all of Scripture is accurate.

it's not historically accurate, no. Some of it is though. And it's ironic that you would say "picking and choosing" because it is you that pick and choose select verses in the OT and claim they apply to Jesus. Stories in the old testament... kingdoms and heroes were exaggerated for effect. Some people think the entire history is made up. I don't believe that. Much of what happened in the OT actually happened. But not the way it is written. There's just no evidence.

 

[CrossEyed]

I do agree, the OT is much, much more validated than the NT..

You should pick up a copy of the book "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

why?and I'm not saying that the OT is completely accurate, just that it is "kept better" if that makes sense... less editing has been done with the OT and it was picked by people who were following God more than the Catholics in the 4th Century...

you think Cross' head exploded when he read my "does it matter if Jesus did <insert miracle here>" post?

It's a fascinating book. It's the latest archaeology discoveries in the holy lands. It tells the story exclusively of the OT from archaeology.Most of the events and characters in the OT are historical. Well, the kings as listed in the bible existed. The patriarchs likely did not.

But the book talks about only the OT hebrews. Good book.

What a shock that someone who's beliefs exist from picking and choosing certain verses doesn't believe that all of Scripture is accurate.

it's not historically accurate, no. Some of it is though. And it's ironic that you would say "picking and choosing" because it is you that pick and choose select verses in the OT and claim they apply to Jesus. Stories in the old testament... kingdoms and heroes were exaggerated for effect. Some people think the entire history is made up. I don't believe that. Much of what happened in the OT actually happened. But not the way it is written. There's just no evidence.

You really don't think that lack of evidence from events and people who lived 4,000+ years ago proves that they didn't happen, do you?

 

[Jayrok]

1) An omniscient God knew who His enemies were since before the beginning of time. Really not a big deal for Him to pronounce judgment on them.

2) John 21:25

Jesus is this omniscient God, yes? And he knew who his enemies were ahead of time. Then why is he asking for God's help.. wait. Why is he asking for his own help, since he's God?

But you say he was human at the time and not God. When he was human, it was ok to pronounce judgment on these men? That's confusing. Is he God at that time or is he human? I thought only God could judge men. It doesn't make sense.

 

[CrossEyed]

I do agree, the OT is much, much more validated than the NT..

You should pick up a copy of the book "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

why?and I'm not saying that the OT is completely accurate, just that it is "kept better" if that makes sense... less editing has been done with the OT and it was picked by people who were following God more than the Catholics in the 4th Century...

you think Cross' head exploded when he read my "does it matter if Jesus did <insert miracle here>" post?

I don't know if Cross' head exploded, but the statement did surprise me. After all, your religion - you know, the one that claims I am going to Hell, wuld seem to be one that would not parse any words or stories from the bible. After all, isn't it you that is hung up on the wording of certain passages that you have used to "prove" that the rest of us heathens are hellbound?

Yeah, LB, if the miracles are made up then maybe the book of Acts is made up too.

 

[Jayrok]

I do agree, the OT is much, much more validated than the NT..

You should pick up a copy of the book "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

why?and I'm not saying that the OT is completely accurate, just that it is "kept better" if that makes sense... less editing has been done with the OT and it was picked by people who were following God more than the Catholics in the 4th Century...

you think Cross' head exploded when he read my "does it matter if Jesus did <insert miracle here>" post?

It's a fascinating book. It's the latest archaeology discoveries in the holy lands. It tells the story exclusively of the OT from archaeology.Most of the events and characters in the OT are historical. Well, the kings as listed in the bible existed. The patriarchs likely did not.

But the book talks about only the OT hebrews. Good book.

What a shock that someone who's beliefs exist from picking and choosing certain verses doesn't believe that all of Scripture is accurate.

it's not historically accurate, no. Some of it is though. And it's ironic that you would say "picking and choosing" because it is you that pick and choose select verses in the OT and claim they apply to Jesus. Stories in the old testament... kingdoms and heroes were exaggerated for effect. Some people think the entire history is made up. I don't believe that. Much of what happened in the OT actually happened. But not the way it is written. There's just no evidence.

You really don't think that lack of evidence from events and people who lived 4,000+ years ago proves that they didn't happen, do you?

You aren't listening. These people didn't exist 4,000 years ago. That is one of the points of the archaeological discovery. Some of the events described to have happened, occured in the 7th century BCE. That is likely the time the bible was actually written. Because events described to happen to abraham and Isaac were present and normal in the 7th century... not the 14th BCE. IOW they wrote about what was going on around them at the time and attibuted them to Abraham who supposedly lived hundreds of years before. Also, I already said that I believe lots of the events did in fact happen. They were just exaggerated.

There was no vast Judaic Kingdom in the 10th century BCE. The land around Jerusalem was barely populated. Most cities and settlements was in northern Israel.

 

[CrossEyed]

1) An omniscient God knew who His enemies were since before the beginning of time. Really not a big deal for Him to pronounce judgment on them.

2) John 21:25

Jesus is this omniscient God, yes? And he knew who his enemies were ahead of time. Then why is he asking for God's help.. wait. Why is he asking for his own help, since he's God?

But you say he was human at the time and not God. When he was human, it was ok to pronounce judgment on these men? That's confusing. Is he God at that time or is he human? I thought only God could judge men. It doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense to me that God became man and died for my sins either. But He did, and I humbly accept the free gift. As I often say, I don't expect to ever be able to completely understand the things of God. His ways are higher than my ways and His thoughts higher than my thoughts. If I could understand everything about God, He wouldn't be a God worth serving.

 

[larry_boy_44]

I do agree, the OT is much, much more validated than the NT..

You should pick up a copy of the book "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

why?and I'm not saying that the OT is completely accurate, just that it is "kept better" if that makes sense... less editing has been done with the OT and it was picked by people who were following God more than the Catholics in the 4th Century...

you think Cross' head exploded when he read my "does it matter if Jesus did <insert miracle here>" post?

I don't know if Cross' head exploded, but the statement did surprise me. After all, your religion - you know, the one that claims I am going to Hell, wuld seem to be one that would not parse any words or stories from the bible. After all, isn't it you that is hung up on the wording of certain passages that you have used to "prove" that the rest of us heathens are hellbound?

it isn't just the words in the Bible, its the actions of those in power and the historical records that show that Jesus' name baptism is the "one baptism" described in Acts...

 

[larry_boy_44]

I do agree, the OT is much, much more validated than the NT..

You should pick up a copy of the book "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

why?and I'm not saying that the OT is completely accurate, just that it is "kept better" if that makes sense... less editing has been done with the OT and it was picked by people who were following God more than the Catholics in the 4th Century...

you think Cross' head exploded when he read my "does it matter if Jesus did <insert miracle here>" post?

I don't know if Cross' head exploded, but the statement did surprise me. After all, your religion - you know, the one that claims I am going to Hell, wuld seem to be one that would not parse any words or stories from the bible. After all, isn't it you that is hung up on the wording of certain passages that you have used to "prove" that the rest of us heathens are hellbound?

Yeah, LB, if the miracles are made up then maybe the book of Acts is made up too.

not made up, stylized, there is a HUGE difference...

 

[Jayrok]

I do agree, the OT is much, much more validated than the NT..

You should pick up a copy of the book "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

why?and I'm not saying that the OT is completely accurate, just that it is "kept better" if that makes sense... less editing has been done with the OT and it was picked by people who were following God more than the Catholics in the 4th Century...

you think Cross' head exploded when he read my "does it matter if Jesus did <insert miracle here>" post?

I don't know if Cross' head exploded, but the statement did surprise me. After all, your religion - you know, the one that claims I am going to Hell, wuld seem to be one that would not parse any words or stories from the bible. After all, isn't it you that is hung up on the wording of certain passages that you have used to "prove" that the rest of us heathens are hellbound?

Good point. If you are a fundy, you must believe all scripture is accurate and true. Otherwise, you aren't a fundy.

 

[CrossEyed]

I do agree, the OT is much, much more validated than the NT..

You should pick up a copy of the book "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

why?and I'm not saying that the OT is completely accurate, just that it is "kept better" if that makes sense... less editing has been done with the OT and it was picked by people who were following God more than the Catholics in the 4th Century...

you think Cross' head exploded when he read my "does it matter if Jesus did <insert miracle here>" post?

It's a fascinating book. It's the latest archaeology discoveries in the holy lands. It tells the story exclusively of the OT from archaeology.Most of the events and characters in the OT are historical. Well, the kings as listed in the bible existed. The patriarchs likely did not.

But the book talks about only the OT hebrews. Good book.

What a shock that someone who's beliefs exist from picking and choosing certain verses doesn't believe that all of Scripture is accurate.

it's not historically accurate, no. Some of it is though. And it's ironic that you would say "picking and choosing" because it is you that pick and choose select verses in the OT and claim they apply to Jesus. Stories in the old testament... kingdoms and heroes were exaggerated for effect. Some people think the entire history is made up. I don't believe that. Much of what happened in the OT actually happened. But not the way it is written. There's just no evidence.

You really don't think that lack of evidence from events and people who lived 4,000+ years ago proves that they didn't happen, do you?

You aren't listening. These people didn't exist 4,000 years ago. That is one of the points of the archaeological discovery. Some of the events described to have happened, occured in the 7th century BCE. That is likely the time the bible was actually written. Because events described to happen to abraham and Isaac were present and normal in the 7th century... not the 14th BCE. IOW they wrote about what was going on around them at the time and attibuted them to Abraham who supposedly lived hundreds of years before. Also, I already said that I believe lots of the events did in fact happen. They were just exaggerated.

There was no vast Judaic Kingdom in the 10th century BCE. The land around Jerusalem was barely populated. Most cities and settlements was in northern Israel.

Absence of evidence doesn't ever prove anything. Other than you haven't found any evidence.

 

[larry_boy_44]

I do agree, the OT is much, much more validated than the NT..

You should pick up a copy of the book "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

why?and I'm not saying that the OT is completely accurate, just that it is "kept better" if that makes sense... less editing has been done with the OT and it was picked by people who were following God more than the Catholics in the 4th Century...

you think Cross' head exploded when he read my "does it matter if Jesus did <insert miracle here>" post?

I don't know if Cross' head exploded, but the statement did surprise me. After all, your religion - you know, the one that claims I am going to Hell, wuld seem to be one that would not parse any words or stories from the bible. After all, isn't it you that is hung up on the wording of certain passages that you have used to "prove" that the rest of us heathens are hellbound?

Good point. If you are a fundy, you must believe all scripture is accurate and true. Otherwise, you aren't a fundy.

:hands in his fundy card 'cuz it just plain isn't (although I would say the possibility of it being true at the time it was written is there):

 

[CrossEyed]

I do agree, the OT is much, much more validated than the NT..

You should pick up a copy of the book "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

why?and I'm not saying that the OT is completely accurate, just that it is "kept better" if that makes sense... less editing has been done with the OT and it was picked by people who were following God more than the Catholics in the 4th Century...

you think Cross' head exploded when he read my "does it matter if Jesus did <insert miracle here>" post?

I don't know if Cross' head exploded, but the statement did surprise me. After all, your religion - you know, the one that claims I am going to Hell, wuld seem to be one that would not parse any words or stories from the bible. After all, isn't it you that is hung up on the wording of certain passages that you have used to "prove" that the rest of us heathens are hellbound?

Yeah, LB, if the miracles are made up then maybe the book of Acts is made up too.

not made up, stylized, there is a HUGE difference...

So what if "in Jesus' name" is stylized?

 

[Jayrok]

1) An omniscient God knew who His enemies were since before the beginning of time.  Really not a big deal for Him to pronounce judgment on them.

2) John 21:25

Jesus is this omniscient God, yes? And he knew who his enemies were ahead of time. Then why is he asking for God's help.. wait. Why is he asking for his own help, since he's God?

But you say he was human at the time and not God. When he was human, it was ok to pronounce judgment on these men? That's confusing. Is he God at that time or is he human? I thought only God could judge men. It doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense to me that God became man and died for my sins either. But He did, and I humbly accept the free gift. As I often say, I don't expect to ever be able to completely understand the things of God. His ways are higher than my ways and His thoughts higher than my thoughts. If I could understand everything about God, He wouldn't be a God worth serving.

why wouldn't he be worth serving if he provided complete understanding?There are many things that don't make sense to me after critically examining even basic beliefs.

Hell makes no sense. Eternal punishment or infinite punishment for finite crimes doesn't make sense.

A God who kills himself to pay a debt to himself owed by a creature that he created makes no sense.

 

[fightingchick]

First let me reply to your earlier misquote.  Did you leave verse 18 out on purpose: "They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture"...  This happened at the cross also.   This psalm should be read as a whole as the entire bible should.  I can see why it doesn't make sense to you if you only read critics.

oh.. wow. are you serious? Fightingchick, have you been paying attention? It does make perfect sense to me.

My point is that you should read the entire psalm. Christian take only select verses to attribute to Jesus. Any other verse that can't possibly be Jesus is swiftly discarded by the apologist.

That was the point. Want to look at the entire Psalm, including verse 18? ok..

PSALM 22 --

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Why are you so far from saving me,

so far from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,

by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;

you are the praise of Israel.

4 In you our fathers put their trust;

they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;

in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,

scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;

they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;

let the LORD rescue him.

Let him deliver him,

since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;

you made me trust in you

even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;

from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,

for trouble is near

and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;

strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey

open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,

and all my bones are out of joint.

My heart has turned to wax;

it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,

and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;

you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;

a band of evil men has encircled me,

they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;

people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them

and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;

O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,

my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;

save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;

in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!

All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!

Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained

the suffering of the afflicted one;

he has not hidden his face from him

but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;

before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;

they who seek the LORD will praise him—

may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth

will remember and turn to the LORD,

and all the families of the nations

will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD

and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;

all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—

those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;

future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness

to a people yet unborn—

for he has done it.

(Emphasis mine)

Jesus uttered verse 1 on the cross. When did he utter verse 6? When he called himself a worm and not a man..

Verse 13 we see that "lions are opening their mouths wide against him". The word for Pierced in verse 16 is supposed to say "lions" which fits perfectly with verse 13 and verse 21.

Verse 18 - yes, the story goes they cast lots for his clothes.

Verses 19-21 -- Jesus is asking God to deliver him from the sword and to save him from the... mouth of the lions.

Did Jesus not know his destiny? why would he ask to be saved from these people? This makes sense when you read it as King David troubled by his enemies. Not so much when you force it to be Jesus.

Verse 22 -- I will declare your name to my brothers; in the congregation I will praise you

This person is saying if God saves him from this fate, he (The person) will declare God's name to his brothers and he will praise God in the congregation. He wants a second chance at life. How can this be Jesus?

My point is only bits and pieces of Psalms like this are ripped and attributed to Jesus in the NT story. You make a good point. You should read the entire Psalm to get the context. When you read the entire chapter of these "prophetic" verses, the odds of it being Jesus go down.

Care to examine more of the psalms, figtingchick?

Read psalm 69 and you should recognize a few other verses that Jesus "uttered" on the cross. But keep reading and see if it is still Jesus talking.

I don't think the verse is Jesus talking at all, so most of your response doesn't make sense to me. the point is not that Jesus is talking, the point is that David makes statements that foreshadow the future.I almost cut in the whole chapter also. But since you're serious. "worm" references Job 25:4. Job suffered and defined the term "worm" for us. A worm is less than a man, and it descirbes how Christ was treated before he died on the cross. He was an outcast. The first part of psalm 22 is about suffering. David is the author. He asks a question, where is God during our suffering? Christ asks the question. We all ask the question. Great poetry, I agree. But there is so much more here than poetry. Poetry lasts this long for a reason. It foreshadows rather than just mirror truth.

The second part of the Psalm is praise to God from David for his faithfulness. David will praise God out in the open, and it may be foreshadowing Christ doing the same. David further says that this praise will come from others in the future as well. We will all see that God has kept his word. He has not foresaken us. He did what he said he would do - which is send a Messiah. (Some of us see it. Maybe you don't yet). The last part is probably still in the future, when all of the earth praises the Lord.