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IF there is a god he is likely more offended at your denominations attempts to denounce people who largely live god fearing lives filled with piety and faith. I have been to many many denominations and have never once heard denouncements like you are saying towards other faiths; maybe you should keep looking for a true church that doesn't judge in intolerance others who you should look to as brothers. You aren't saving anyone here Larry, just damning yourself.
I would think that a god that defines himself as perfect would be able to get over an honest mistake by those that in every way humanly possible try to love him.
Larry, no one believes that the Trinity is polytheistic anymore. NO ONE! It's a dissension and hindrance contrary to the teaching of the apostles that has already been rebuked. No one believes in three Gods anymore. Now take a good look at this verse that you posted:Matthew 24:24 - For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.Mark 13:22 - for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.If no one I know believe in baal, then no. Why should it?No one I know is worshipping demons and pagan gods Larry. It's really a reach to say a person baptized "in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" worships demons and pagan gods when they profess belief in Christ, serve Christ, and produce good fruit. You are basing your entire opinion of that person on the words that were uttered during their baptism and completely ignoring what that person professes to believes, how they live their life, and the fruit their life produces. THAT is not Biblical.Well, I guess you can have fun worshipping your demons and pagan gods then...
II Corinthians 11:14-15 - No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
Romans 16:17-19 -Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.
For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.
For the report of your obedience has reached to all; therefore I am rejoicing over you, but I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil.
(note: Thus, those who taught differently from the apostles (those who brought the Trinity in and those hwo changed baptism) were not following God, they were following thier own flesh and we should turn away from EVERYTHING they said)
I Timothy 4:1-3 - But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
II Timothy 3:13 -But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
so, there will be decievers in the last days leaving the true doctrines...
now, tradition and the question, what was the sin of the pharisees??? Simply put, they neglected the command of God for thier traditions (as the modern church is doing with its baptism):
Mark 7:1-10 - The Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered around Him when they had come from Jerusalem,
and had seen that some of His disciples were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed.
(For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders;
And when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.)
The Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the (F)tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?"
And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
"Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the (J)tradition of men."
He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
Colossians 2:8 - See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
the trinity was adopted through being decieved by the tradition of men and thier philosophy and is now being kept by a church that is neglecting the commands of God in order to honor its philosophy... both of those are things that we are explicitly taught NOT to do...
You're whole point is that the church was decieved 1700 years ago. 1700 years ago was not the last days. We are far more likely to be in the last days now. Are you possibly one of the "decievers in the last days leaving the true doctrines"? Is it possible at all? Or is just impossible that you are possbily decieving others? Seriously think about this.
Pray.Romans 10, 13 "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (please don't assume this has any meaning to the other debates going on. I am only suggesting that Faith is your job. God has reached out, your Faith comes next. Faith plugs all holes and allows God to work in your life. Or whatever his name is and in whatever language.)
They're not referring to Him as if He were a pagan god. Someone else can claim that they words they use are referring to a pagan god, but they themselves are not referring to a pagan god. Again, your whole argument is based on semantics and how one could infer different references than what the person being baptized actually believes. God is above such mundane semantic games and is not offended by the person being baptized.
Okay, I reread it. Everyone who accepted this message was baptized. So again I ask, is baptism necessary for salvation or is baptism a logical event following salvation? If you ask me should Christians be baptized, I would answer with a resounding yes. However, anything you require for salvation is adding onto Jesus death on the cross. When he said it was finished he meant it.
And the FBGs all said....AMEN
unfortunately, I can't find anything that is "scholarly"... which isn't surprising as, generaly speaking, people who believe as I do aren't very welcome in "scholarly" places off-hand... }=o( I know a guy I know was the first person who wasn't a trinitarian to go to the seminary school he is going to (and he is in his 2nd year there)...Larry, other than your pastor and some religious editorial arguments you have read, where does this notion of what the holy trinity represents come from? Any scholarly works or actual texts backing up research into this topic?If you have already posted this earlier in the thread could you point it out?so the fact that we took belief in baal and just changed some wording doesn't bother you at all???Well, I guess you can have fun worshipping your demons and pagan gods then...
And I am talking about scholarly works (religious scholarly works is fine if it is footnoted), not articles or a pastor.
you realize that if everyone who claims Christianity and all denominations/faiths are true than Jesus lied, right?He said that many would find damnation, and few would find life... that does suck, but that's what He said...
So you believe all of this based on what?unfortunately, I can't find anything that is "scholarly"... which isn't surprising as, generaly speaking, people who believe as I do aren't very welcome in "scholarly" places off-hand... }=o( I know a guy I know was the first person who wasn't a trinitarian to go to the seminary school he is going to (and he is in his 2nd year there)...Larry, other than your pastor and some religious editorial arguments you have read, where does this notion of what the holy trinity represents come from? Any scholarly works or actual texts backing up research into this topic?If you have already posted this earlier in the thread could you point it out?so the fact that we took belief in baal and just changed some wording doesn't bother you at all???Well, I guess you can have fun worshipping your demons and pagan gods then...
And I am talking about scholarly works (religious scholarly works is fine if it is footnoted), not articles or a pastor.
I would think that God would expect us to do as He said, not just accept whatever we feel like doing and thinking...
How is what you say the truth and why is your denomination the one true one?
Spock, a few things...one, in order for me to leave the true doctrine, the trinity and baptism in the titles would have to be true and saying simply "God is one no matter how many different ways He shows Himself to us" and baptizing in Jesus' name is false (which is absolutely not true and you know it)Larry, no one believes that the Trinity is polytheistic anymore. NO ONE! It's a dissension and hindrance contrary to the teaching of the apostles that has already been rebuked. No one believes in three Gods anymore. Now take a good look at this verse that you posted:Matthew 24:24 - For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.Mark 13:22 - for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.If no one I know believe in baal, then no. Why should it?No one I know is worshipping demons and pagan gods Larry. It's really a reach to say a person baptized "in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" worships demons and pagan gods when they profess belief in Christ, serve Christ, and produce good fruit. You are basing your entire opinion of that person on the words that were uttered during their baptism and completely ignoring what that person professes to believes, how they live their life, and the fruit their life produces. THAT is not Biblical.Well, I guess you can have fun worshipping your demons and pagan gods then...
II Corinthians 11:14-15 - No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
Romans 16:17-19 -Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.
For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.
For the report of your obedience has reached to all; therefore I am rejoicing over you, but I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil.
(note: Thus, those who taught differently from the apostles (those who brought the Trinity in and those hwo changed baptism) were not following God, they were following thier own flesh and we should turn away from EVERYTHING they said)
I Timothy 4:1-3 - But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
II Timothy 3:13 -But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
so, there will be decievers in the last days leaving the true doctrines...
now, tradition and the question, what was the sin of the pharisees??? Simply put, they neglected the command of God for thier traditions (as the modern church is doing with its baptism):
Mark 7:1-10 - The Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered around Him when they had come from Jerusalem,
and had seen that some of His disciples were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed.
(For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders;
And when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.)
The Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the (F)tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?"
And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
"Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the (J)tradition of men."
He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
Colossians 2:8 - See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
the trinity was adopted through being decieved by the tradition of men and thier philosophy and is now being kept by a church that is neglecting the commands of God in order to honor its philosophy... both of those are things that we are explicitly taught NOT to do...
Romans 16:17-19 -Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.
and think, and I mean SERIOUSLY THINK, about what you do to unsuspecting Catholics and others who are baptized.
and also think about what you said here:
You're whole point is that the church was decieved 1700 years ago. 1700 years ago was not the last days. We are far more likely to be in the last days now. Are you possibly one of the "decievers in the last days leaving the true doctrines"? Is it possible at all? Or is just impossible that you are possbily decieving others? Seriously think about this.
Spock, how simple was His command? Its not like it was a difficult thing to do... "baptizing them in my name" how hard is that???If we can't even follow a command that simple, how can we think that we are truely following Him completely?
they wern't just baptized, though, KIA, they were COMMANDED to be baptized by Peter... They wanted to be converted, to be saved, and asked what to do and Peter told them to repent and be baptized...He didn't say "you are saved, but now, as a logical progression of your faith, you should repetn and then be baptized in Jesus' name", no, HE COMMANDED THEM TO DO IT!! He demanded it of them...
You were expecting dragons maybe?
Okay. Meanwhile anyone else who is reading this and are considering faith, please at a minimum realize that Christ died for you. Whatever else you do, that is the important part. All the rest of this stuff you can work out as you try to figure out your faith.
because it is actually what the Bible says... when you are preaching doctrine that are against what the book that you claim you get your doctrine from says you have a problem...the problem is the modern church doesn't care what God says, they just want to feel better about themselves, not lose themselves, not really follow Him or anyone else... They want things to be done how they want it to be done... and God is not going to accept the excuse of they thought it was good enough, because He expects obedience from us...
Anytime a moron acts condescendingly, it's a fun-killer.You were expecting dragons maybe?
yes, just remember that and ignore everything else, because Mr. Know-It-All wants you to go to hell with him as he isn't obeying God's commands either...good job, KIA, good job...
How do you know the commands you believe to be true are actually true? If Matthew 28:19 was changed, is it not possible that other verses have been changed as well? I know that discovering that a part of the bible had been changed would make me more hesitant to believe that the rest of the book is the literal word of God, but it seems to have no effect on you.
Thank you for the reply. And thank you to (I think it was) Chumley who suggested that my posts were not merely fishing but honest questions of faith. They are honest questions and I'm looking for honest answers and I appreciate all that I have received so far.I've got some big things going on in my life right now, things that require big answers to big questions. I've commented to friends more then once recently that I've felt like these questions and challenges were too big for me. I've felt not so much like I CAN'T answer the questions so much as I don't even know HOW to answer them. I feel small compared to challenges before me. As I've made these comments to some I've gotten replies like "have faith" and "pray". I usually write off such platitudes as carrying no more weight then "have a nice day". But I'm honestly looking at faith and the faithful with a bit of envy right now because I honestly believe that faith and prayer would probably serve me well right now and I'm a bit saddened by the fact that I lack them.
In order for you to leave the true doctrine, the 1700 year old definition of the title "Trinity" does not have to be true. No one believes it any more, and probably hasn't for over a thousand years. The fact is this whole Pentacostal argument is an incredibly recent phenomena when you look at the 2000 year history of the church.
And I believe we are today. Who is more likely to be right? Was the church 1700 years ago in the last days or not. Does the verse you applied to them really apply to them if they weren't in the last days?
No one who is getting baptized today is referring to a group of gods in an ancient pagan religion. You are inferring from their words a reference to a group of gods in an ancient pagan religion. You as a bystanderd can infer a lot of things from someone else words. What really matter is what the person being baptized is referring to, and they are referring to the one true God who exists in three manifestations.
Then like I've said countless times, say it in Greek if doing it exactly is so important.
God is very specific, but you said above one can refer to Him with different names. BUT God will damn someone to hell for referring to Him as "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". If other references to God are acceptable, where is the specific instruction from God that this phrase is not acceptable. Seriously, you whole position on this appears to be bitterness towards what the church did 1700 years ago, and as such YOU won't accept those words so you believe God won't either.
I have already been baptized in the Name of Jesus. The "Name" of Jesus is no different than the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Just because someone is bitter towards the actions of the church 1700 years ago is no reason for me to worry that I'm not baptized under the authority of the one true God.
Jesus talks to Lawrence.
Larry you have crossed over from being well meaning to vile. I am not going to argue points with you as it has proven fruitless. I should have followed CrossEyed's lead a long time ago.Yay! I now going to hell according to the church of larry. Never mind the fact that I have accepted Christ and been baptized. Unfortunately that wasn't good enough because it doesn' meet larry's standards. Good job, larry!yes, just remember that and ignore everything else, because Mr. Know-It-All wants you to go to hell with him as he isn't obeying God's commands either...good job, KIA, good job...
seriously, how in the world do people convince themselves that they can just ignore what God says like this?? It make no sense to me... "Yeah, God said that, but what I'm doing is good enough, so I don't need to listen to Him"... WHAT?!?!
who are we that we can just ignore what he commands of us??? Where do we get off thinking we are that smart or that good or worthy of anything except damnation?
I find it amusing that you say nothing we do saves us, yet at the same time state that belief in Jesus dying and faith in him saves us... WHAT??? which is it? Does nothing we do save us, or does our faith save us?
His command is easy. That's why all Christians do it. There are many passages in the NT that explain how we are to know who is a Christian and who isn't. And not one of the them tells us to check what words were uttered when they were baptized. If the words uttered during a baptism are so important to one's Christianity because of what the church did 1700 years ago, then these verses in the Bible written 1900+ years ago that tell us how to recognize other Christians are WRONG. Because even though someone may meet all the criteria of the versus in the Bible, we can't know if they are a Christian unless we find out what words were used when they were baptized. You're position that people baptized with the wrong words renders these other parts of the Bible as false.
My apologies, seahawk for getting involved in this "debate" with larry.You want my honest assesment of faith? It is a series of things you learn as you begin assessing your spirituality. It will be influenced by the church you attend, but ultimately the end goal should be to have a "relationship" with God.
And with that, larry_boy has gone all the way over the edge. Until you conduct an exhaustive survey of all Christian churches/denominations/sects in the United States, you cannot support what you just said. You are taking a PERIPHERAL, SECONDARY ISSUE in the world of Christianity and drawing a line in the sand. As the first apostles were instructed in Acts and the epistles, I am shaking the dust off my shoes and leaving this thread, probably also as well as future theological discussions with you. Congratulations on having Christiantity completely right while the rest of us continue to wallow in our ignorance. I appreciate your concern for my soul, but I'm afraid I'm just too stubborn to jump to your side of the fence right now. I'll leave you with two of my favorite passages from the Bible:
Acts 4:20 - there is no other name given under heaven by which we might be saved....Stop neglecting God's commands for your tradition...
I didn't decide it, KIA, God said it in His Word that you claim to follow but don't...Larry you have crossed over from being well meaning to vile. I am not going to argue points with you as it has proven fruitless. I should have followed CrossEyed's lead a long time ago.Yay! I now going to hell according to the church of larry. Never mind the fact that I have accepted Christ and been baptized. Unfortunately that wasn't good enough because it doesn' meet larry's standards. Good job, larry!yes, just remember that and ignore everything else, because Mr. Know-It-All wants you to go to hell with him as he isn't obeying God's commands either...good job, KIA, good job...
seriously, how in the world do people convince themselves that they can just ignore what God says like this?? It make no sense to me... "Yeah, God said that, but what I'm doing is good enough, so I don't need to listen to Him"... WHAT?!?!
who are we that we can just ignore what he commands of us??? Where do we get off thinking we are that smart or that good or worthy of anything except damnation?
I find it amusing that you say nothing we do saves us, yet at the same time state that belief in Jesus dying and faith in him saves us... WHAT??? which is it? Does nothing we do save us, or does our faith save us?
I am not condemning your faith, larry. I am sure the folks in your church are all great people and have assurance of salvation. Its a shame the rest of us Christians get to go to hell because we don't adhere to your church and your religion. I am increasingly aware that whatever church you go to has decided that you will be the only ones in heaven. Have a good day!
no, see, all the people those other verses were said to were baptized in Jesus name already... There was no argument or disagreement at that time...I hate to have to be the one to break this to you, Spock, but those letters we call the New TEstament are only a portion of the writings from those men, we will never have all of thier writings, and sometimes we need to have common sense about things, but there are direct commands that we see and distortions that we view in history of thier doctrine that we need to break completely away from, and you are absolutely refusing to do so... why?
leave if that's what you want to do... but hopefully you decide to read this and maybe answer it...who decided it is a secondary issue? Isn't something that all converts were commanded to do immediately upon conversion something that is a little more than secondary? I mean, seriously, people asked how to be converted of the apostles and EVERY TIME they were told to be baptized...And with that, larry_boy has gone all the way over the edge. Until you conduct an exhaustive survey of all Christian churches/denominations/sects in the United States, you cannot support what you just said. You are taking a PERIPHERAL, SECONDARY ISSUE in the world of Christianity and drawing a line in the sand. As the first apostles were instructed in Acts and the epistles, I am shaking the dust off my shoes and leaving this thread, probably also as well as future theological discussions with you. Congratulations on having Christiantity completely right while the rest of us continue to wallow in our ignorance. I appreciate your concern for my soul, but I'm afraid I'm just too stubborn to jump to your side of the fence right now. I'll leave you with two of my favorite passages from the Bible:
That is NOT what Acts 4:20 says. Acts 4:20 says:For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard. (Act 4:20)
They weren't said to were baptized. That's another assumption on your part.
Common sense doesn't work properly with logical fallacies. There are commands we are given, but there is no logical conclusion that salvation resides on sucessful execution of those commands, especially when the logic being used to make that case requires referring to a 1700 year old defenition that no one believes in anymore for a 3rd party like Larry to infer that the person who has obeyed the commandment to be baptized was referring to pagan gods when they were baptized.
Seahawk, Don't let the actions of people push you away from the message of Christ. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. The answers of faith and pray seem hollow but maybe that is because that’s what we hear so much. We hear it but never do it. I don't question LB's motives or Spock's. But you can see how as people we get caught up in our own petty argument and get sidetracked. Those questions you asked should have stopped the debate in its tracks and as Christians we should have been explaining the Message of the Gospel to you. (If you are inclined to listen). This thread is a prime example of why people are turned off by organized religion. Please don't make the mistake of equating man’s inability to follows Gods perfect plan with an imperfect plan from God. If man were perfect we wouldn't have needed Jesus to make a way for salvation.
Neat, I go in this order: Catholic, atheist, Catholic, agnositc and now born again christian. (My grandmother was a good Catholic too.)Seriously, that does demonstrate the common problem of mankind - the search for the meaning of life. We all do. Even the admitted Baal worshiper.
Bashing Christians seldom has anyhing to do with religious (or at least spiritual) beliefs!
Strength in numbers, the christian mantra. :X
footballguys?
You must be pretty old or an absolute genius to know why Matthew wrote what he wrote. And it's pretty amazing that people for centuries have failed to give Isaiah 7 even a cursory reading. So you mean if we actually just sat down and read Isaiah we wouldn't have all these false ideas?
why?Being told what to do is for those simple minded folks who have to be told what to do in order to do the right thing.
