The Hawk Goes to the Hall, 2010 (1 Viewer)

[Eephus]

Dave Parker > Andre Dawson

by weight

Parker and Stargell in the 70s for Pittsburgh were a pretty awesome duo to have in the line up, wouldn't you agree?

especially in the yellow doubleknit pants

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Dave Parker > Andre Dawson

by weight

Parker and Stargell in the 70s for Pittsburgh were a pretty awesome duo to have in the line up, wouldn't you agree?

especially in the yellow doubleknit pants

Yes I agree with you

 

[Fennis]

Dave Parker > Andre Dawson

by weight

Parker and Stargell in the 70s for Pittsburgh were a pretty awesome duo to have in the line up, wouldn't you agree?

especially in the yellow doubleknit pants

Yes I agree with you

I wish stargell played in these

 

[Your Mom]

Roberto Alomar not getting in is a joke. This crap about 1st ballot votes is garbage.

I can't believe he didn't get in. These writers need there votes taken away from them. Jay Mariotti is a loud mouth idiot. All he cares about is causing a stir.

 

[Wrigley]

The baseball writers who voted for MVP had for years denied players from last place teams from consideration. Their argument was that the team could finish in last place without him. Fair enough. But why make the exception for Dawson and no one else? 49 homers in a small park where windblown homers are the norm? You'd think if he was the best player in the league he could have gotten them out of the basement. It was a 6 team division for crying out loud, there were plenty of bad teams.

22 road home runs = led the NL.

Jack Clark would have won the MVP but he only played 133 games and got hurt again during the playoffs. He and Ozzie Smith also split the St. Louis vote. Tony.Gwynn hit .370 and Will Clark had a better year than Dawson for a divisional winner. Dawson is a more deserving HoF member than he was a MVP in 1987.

I wasn't really arguing in favor of Dawson's MVP award. I was just debunking the myth that his HR total was solely thanks to Wrigley field.

Wrigley is an odd place, some days its a hitters park and some its a pitchers park. the wind off the lake dictates that more than the dimensions.

Wind blows in more than it blows out

 

[hook014]

Dawson on a 2-2 count...........and he pops it up.....shortstop ranges back to get it...........way back!!!!....and it's gone!!!!!

 

[Mr. Retukes]

Roberto Alomar not getting in is a joke.

A bigger joke is the fact that this was moved out of the Free For All.

 

[Eephus]

Roberto Alomar not getting in is a joke.

A bigger joke is the fact that this was moved out of the Free For All.

Pathetic. Why not just delete this thread rather than throw it in with the two other BBF HoF threads.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Roberto Alomar not getting in is a joke.

A bigger joke is the fact that this was moved out of the Free For All.

Pathetic. Why not just delete this thread rather than throw it in with the two other BBF HoF threads.

isn't this a baseball thread?

 

[=Smackdown=]

Dave Parker > Andre Dawson

ummmm...no.

I beg to differ. If I owned a team I'd MUCH rather have Dave Parker on my team than Andre Dawson. Their stats are similar.Andre Dawson HOFer = meh. Carlos Delgado has better stats them him.Dawson has a .186 postseason batting average.

 

[Koya]

Mariotti continues his stupid parade. He left his ballot blank.

I didn't vote for anybody in the baseball hall of fame this year. Ya know why? To me...the first ballot is sacred. I think Roberto Alomar is an eventual Hall of Famer, not the first time. Edgar Martinez, designated hitter, eventually, but not the first time. Same goes for maybe Fred McGriff. As far as Blyleven and Dawson...if they haven't gotten in for years and years I cannot vote them in now. Ripken, Rickey Henderson and Gwynn. They are true first ballot Hall of Famers, but I didn't vote for anybody, throw me out of the Baseball Writers. I don't care.

Please, lets do this.What an idiot. He starts with "not a first ballot type of guy" followed by "well, these guys didnt get in before, so why let them in now?"Which is it? Guys a buffoon here.

 

[Your Mom]

Roberto Alomar not getting in is a joke.

A bigger joke is the fact that this was moved out of the Free For All.

Pathetic. Why not just delete this thread rather than throw it in with the two other BBF HoF threads.

isn't this a baseball thread?

Change the name of Free for All to Free for All (besides baseball).

 

[Koya]

Morris not getting in is criminal.

Explain this to me once again? Because an ERA+ that is nominally above league average (105) without even one season under a 1.15 whip (and only two below 1.2), that's not even close. So he had some good games in key moments. Did he win the Cy? Or even come in second? (no to both) That's great for a Tigers museum or a Tigers hall of fame. Not a MLB HOF. Not that close even, and I don't get the manlove for him.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Change the name of Free for All to Free for All (besides baseball).

not much NFL talk in there either.

 

[Koya]

Roberto Alomar not getting in is a joke. This crap about 1st ballot votes is garbage. I can't believe he didn't get in. These writers need there votes taken away from them. Jay Mariotti is a loud mouth idiot. All he cares about is causing a stir.

Can't agree with you more. And even if you abide by the stupid not a first ballot guy logic, Alomar was easily the best 2B of his generation. If he had not spit at the ump or just fallen off a cliff one or two years early, we wouldnt be having this conversation.

 

[oso diablo]

Morris not getting in is criminal.

Explain this to me once again? Because an ERA+ that is nominally above league average (105) without even one season under a 1.15 whip (and only two below 1.2), that's not even close. So he had some good games in key moments. Did he win the Cy? Or even come in second? (no to both) That's great for a Tigers museum or a Tigers hall of fame. Not a MLB HOF. Not that close even, and I don't get the manlove for him.

Morris is the current bell-cow candidate for those using emotion and small sample sizes.

 

[oso diablo]

Andre Dawson HOFer = meh. Carlos Delgado has better stats them him.

Delgado has excellent batting stats, but he also plays the easiest defensive position and is below-average at that position. Dawson has 8 Gold Gloves (although that over-rates him). though i do agree on the "meh" part.

 

[Wrigley]

Andre Dawson HOFer = meh. Carlos Delgado has better stats them him.

Delgado has excellent batting stats, but he also plays the easiest defensive position and is below-average at that position. Dawson has 8 Gold Gloves (although that over-rates him). though i do agree on the "meh" part.

Delgado played along guys like Big Mac and SosaHum, what do they call that era again?

 

[Mr. Retukes]

Change the name of Free for All to Free for All (besides baseball).

not much NFL talk in there either.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...ighlite=%2BVick

 

[=Smackdown=]

Andre Dawson HOFer = meh. Carlos Delgado has better stats them him.

Delgado has excellent batting stats, but he also plays the easiest defensive position and is below-average at that position. Dawson has 8 Gold Gloves (although that over-rates him). though i do agree on the "meh" part.

Delgado played along guys like Big Mac and SosaHum, what do they call that era again?

I get that.Dawson had one good year - 1987.Other than that he's a big fat MEH

 

[Wrigley]

Andre Dawson HOFer = meh. Carlos Delgado has better stats them him.

Delgado has excellent batting stats, but he also plays the easiest defensive position and is below-average at that position. Dawson has 8 Gold Gloves (although that over-rates him). though i do agree on the "meh" part.

Delgado played along guys like Big Mac and SosaHum, what do they call that era again?

I get that.Dawson had one good year - 1987.Other than that he's a big fat MEH

How many MVP's did Delgado win?

 

[Eephus]

Andre Dawson HOFer = meh. Carlos Delgado has better stats them him.

Delgado has excellent batting stats, but he also plays the easiest defensive position and is below-average at that position. Dawson has 8 Gold Gloves (although that over-rates him). though i do agree on the "meh" part.

Delgado played along guys like Big Mac and SosaHum, what do they call that era again?

I get that.Dawson had one good year - 1987.Other than that he's a big fat MEH

1980, 81 (strike shortened), 82, 83, 86, 88 and 90 are all comparable to 1987 in terms of OPS+.

 

[whoknew]

Dawson's OBP is the lowest of any HOFer by 20 points.

 

[Eephus]

Dawson's OBP is the lowest of any HOFer by 20 points.

That's incorrect. Rabbit Maranville's career line is .258/.318/.340. There are other HoFers with OBP lower than Dawson's .323. Dawson's number is worst among HoF outfielders.

 

[Darth Cheney]

I don't get the whole....he's not good enough to get in his first year.....but he's good enough to get in on his third or fourth. What new evidence was presented to the voters that allowed Dawson to make it this year?

 

[oso diablo]

I don't get the whole....he's not good enough to get in his first year.....but he's good enough to get in on his third or fourth. What new evidence was presented to the voters that allowed Dawson to make it this year?

i think writers prefer to have at least one inductee every year, so there's a move to the "next best guy" on the list. there's also a "follow the crowd" mentality, but it's not that large. Finally, we are in the midst of rapidly expanding knowledge of advanced methods of statistical evaluation of players (that's a mouthful). The awareness and acceptance of metrics like OPS+ and ERA+, not to mention WARP etc, is growing but still uneven, and we see some of the writers attempting to make cases for certain players using these metrics. Now, how that last point helped Dawson, i have no idea. But it IS helping Blyleven (who got only 14% in his first ballot) and will help Raines. Trammell's hill to climb is too steep; it won't matter for him.

 

[whoknew]

Dawson's OBP is the lowest of any HOFer by 20 points.

That's incorrect. Rabbit Maranville's career line is .258/.318/.340. There are other HoFers with OBP lower than Dawson's .323. Dawson's number is worst among HoF outfielders.

Yea that was my mistake. My bad.

 

[Eephus]

Dawson's OBP is the lowest of any HOFer by 20 points.

That's incorrect. Rabbit Maranville's career line is .258/.318/.340. There are other HoFers with OBP lower than Dawson's .323. Dawson's number is worst among HoF outfielders.

Yea that was my mistake. My bad.

Highlighting Dawson's OBP seems like reverse cherrypicking. It's like the voters who said all McGwire did was hit HRs and draw walks, but he only had a career AVG of .260-something. I think Dawson is a borderline HoFer and he wasn't on my pretend ballot. But his OBP doesn't diminish the fact that he hit for average and power, stole bases and played exceptional defense (in his prime). He was a marvelous five-tool player before his knees went away but still had enough talent to reinvent himself as a slugger. If he played in an era of microfracture surgery and smaller ballparks, he might have been the second coming of Willie Mays (w/out the OBP). But so would Pete Reiser if he played in an era with padded OF walls.

 

[whoknew]

Dawson's OBP is the lowest of any HOFer by 20 points.

That's incorrect. Rabbit Maranville's career line is .258/.318/.340. There are other HoFers with OBP lower than Dawson's .323. Dawson's number is worst among HoF outfielders.

Yea that was my mistake. My bad.

Highlighting Dawson's OBP seems like reverse cherrypicking. It's like the voters who said all McGwire did was hit HRs and draw walks, but he only had a career AVG of .260-something. I think Dawson is a borderline HoFer and he wasn't on my pretend ballot. But his OBP doesn't diminish the fact that he hit for average and power, stole bases and played exceptional defense (in his prime). He was a marvelous five-tool player before his knees went away but still had enough talent to reinvent himself as a slugger. If he played in an era of microfracture surgery and smaller ballparks, he might have been the second coming of Willie Mays (w/out the OBP). But so would Pete Reiser if he played in an era with padded OF walls.

But of all talents you cite, the most important is the ability to get on base. Baseball isn't like other games. There is no clock, no downs, no turnovers, etc. The only way to stop an offense is to make 3 outs. If the offense doesn't make 3 outs, then they can score an unlimited number of runs. The most essential skill an offensive player can have, therefore, is the ability to not make an out.Andre Dawson just wasn't very good at the most essential offensive skill.

 

[Dave Baker]

HOF voting is very subjective, of course, as is my opinion. But I've always viewed the HOF as being for the very elite. I also put little credence into longevity and total numbers, as long as you were elite for about a decade or more. I personally never viewed Dawson as truly elite. I just viewed him as a very, very good player. His glove certainly helps matters, but watching him play didn't make me scream out "HOFer!". While I'm not as big into numbers as most, I also think the numbers don't do much for me.

He only had 30 or more HRs three times in his career and more than 32 only once. So his HR's are out of the picture for me (total HRs mean little to me).

He only had 100 or more RBIs four times in his career and only once over 113. So his RBIs don't do much (see earlier comment about totals).

His batting average was nothing great. His glove, though, moves him much higher on my list. Actually, his arm more than his glove, although he had a good glove too.

For his power numbers, Eric Karros actually had 30 or more HRs five times (two more than Dawson) and 100 RBIs or more five times (one more than Dawson). He never got gold gloves (although he was actually a pretty good fielder) and I am NOT trying to make a case for Karros. He was never elite.

While 1981, 1983 and 1987 were all terrific seasons for Dawson, I don't see him overall as elite and/or one of the game's very best. I admit I don't compare him to others currently in the HOF because I don't agree with many in there now. It's far from a travesty that he's in there, but I wish the HOF kept it for the truly elite.

Roberto Alomar is a HOFer. He will get in and and he should have this year. You knew watching him play that he was truly special and elite and one of the greatest second basemen to play the game.

 

[Dave Baker]

Dawson's OBP is the lowest of any HOFer by 20 points.

That's incorrect. Rabbit Maranville's career line is .258/.318/.340. There are other HoFers with OBP lower than Dawson's .323. Dawson's number is worst among HoF outfielders.

Yea that was my mistake. My bad.

Highlighting Dawson's OBP seems like reverse cherrypicking. It's like the voters who said all McGwire did was hit HRs and draw walks, but he only had a career AVG of .260-something. I think Dawson is a borderline HoFer and he wasn't on my pretend ballot. But his OBP doesn't diminish the fact that he hit for average and power, stole bases and played exceptional defense (in his prime). He was a marvelous five-tool player before his knees went away but still had enough talent to reinvent himself as a slugger. If he played in an era of microfracture surgery and smaller ballparks, he might have been the second coming of Willie Mays (w/out the OBP). But so would Pete Reiser if he played in an era with padded OF walls.

But of all talents you cite, the most important is the ability to get on base. Baseball isn't like other games. There is no clock, no downs, no turnovers, etc. The only way to stop an offense is to make 3 outs. If the offense doesn't make 3 outs, then they can score an unlimited number of runs. The most essential skill an offensive player can have, therefore, is the ability to not make an out.Andre Dawson just wasn't very good at the most essential offensive skill.

While I agree with your sentiment that Dawson does not belong, I don't think I agree with the value you place on OBP. While it's important, it's not the end all (or the most essential skill, as you put it). If so, guys like Nick Johnson and Brian Giles would be on the fast track for making the Hall.

 

[Eephus]

But of all talents you cite, the most important is the ability to get on base. Baseball isn't like other games. There is no clock, no downs, no turnovers, etc. The only way to stop an offense is to make 3 outs. If the offense doesn't make 3 outs, then they can score an unlimited number of runs. The most essential skill an offensive player can have, therefore, is the ability to not make an out.Andre Dawson just wasn't very good at the most essential offensive skill.

You're overstating the value of OBP. It's very important and in the past (or even today if you're Brian Sabean) didn't get as much attention as it should have. But it's not THE most essential skill. If you build an offense purely of guys like Max Bishop and Chone Figgins, you're more likely to lead the league in LOB than R.The object of the game is to score runs on offense and prevent runs on defense. Dawson was top ten in NL runs created seven times in spite of missing games because of his sore knees. In his prime, he probably saved more runs than any NL non-pitcher save Ozzie Smith.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Change the name of Free for All to Free for All (besides baseball).

not much NFL talk in there either.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...ighlite=%2BVick

I can't believe we're debating whether a baseball HOF thread belongs in the baseball forum.

 

[Eephus]

Change the name of Free for All to Free for All (besides baseball).

not much NFL talk in there either.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...ighlite=%2BVick

I can't believe we're debating whether a baseball HOF thread belongs in the baseball forum.

If the mods made a conscious decision to let this thread live in the FFA most of yesterday because it was of general news interest, I support that line of thinking. Moving it here today for the deeper baseball discussion is also an appropriate thing to do.If it stayed in the FFA yesterday afternoon because no mods noticed it, that's just ###### terrific.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Change the name of Free for All to Free for All (besides baseball).

not much NFL talk in there either.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...ighlite=%2BVick

I can't believe we're debating whether a baseball HOF thread belongs in the baseball forum.

If the mods made a conscious decision to let this thread live in the FFA most of yesterday because it was of general news interest, I support that line of thinking. Moving it here today for the deeper baseball discussion is also an appropriate thing to do.If it stayed in the FFA yesterday afternoon because no mods noticed it, that's just ###### terrific.

I didn't notice it. When I did, I moved it here, where it seems to belong.Not sure why that is "pathetic". Because it had already grown and there was some discussion going on, I did leave a link to this thread in the FFA so nobody would think it got deleted or something.

for years, people complained that we needed a baseball forum here. now, whenever a baseball thread gets moved to it, people complain about that as well. not sure what the solution is, but I figured this was a pretty obvious thread to move here.

 

[Eephus]

I didn't notice it. When I did, I moved it here, where it seems to belong.

Not sure why that is "pathetic". Because it had already grown and there was some discussion going on, I did leave a link to this thread in the FFA so nobody would think it got deleted or something.

for years, people complained that we needed a baseball forum here. now, whenever a baseball thread gets moved to it, people complain about that as well. not sure what the solution is, but I figured this was a pretty obvious thread to move here.

Thanks for the response. Pathetic was the wrong word to use. I acknowledge it's a no win situation. There's a line somewhere between baseball news and just plain news. FWIW, the Cory Lidle thread was in the FFA and the Josh Hancock thread ended up here. Go figure <_<

 

[TommyGilmore]

I didn't notice it. When I did, I moved it here, where it seems to belong.

Some topics are greater than the sum of their subject matter. I wish the mods would understand that. But the administration seems to believe that anything remotely baseball related should be banned from general view.Yes, this site need a Baseball Forum. But the relationship between the FFA and the Baseball Forum should be more like the relationship between the Shark Pool and the Assistant Coach's Forum & IDP Forum. Lots of threads in the Shark Pool border on ACF or IDP material, but mods let it fly because they know that the topic has a wider interest.Imagine if the mods took every single Shark Pool thread on an individual defensive player and moved it to the IDP forum. That wouldn't be good for business, don't ya think?

 

[Chairshot]

Dave Parker > Andre Dawson

I disagree, but it's a lot closer than people think.Dawson is a bit better then Parker (who I think has a decent case for the Hall in his own right). Both are much better than Jim Rice.As far as OBP goes, it might be the most essential stat in baseball. However, the ability to hit for power is very, very close behind. OBP may very well be the most important, but a player who can only get on base isn't as valuable as on who gets on base less and can do other very important aspects of the game well.Regardless, congrats to the Hawk. I believe he deserves to be there.

 

[Koya]

I didn't notice it. When I did, I moved it here, where it seems to belong.

Some topics are greater than the sum of their subject matter. I wish the mods would understand that. But the administration seems to believe that anything remotely baseball related should be banned from general view.Yes, this site need a Baseball Forum. But the relationship between the FFA and the Baseball Forum should be more like the relationship between the Shark Pool and the Assistant Coach's Forum & IDP Forum. Lots of threads in the Shark Pool border on ACF or IDP material, but mods let it fly because they know that the topic has a wider interest.Imagine if the mods took every single Shark Pool thread on an individual defensive player and moved it to the IDP forum. That wouldn't be good for business, don't ya think?

Why have a dedicated Baseball Forum if the most important baseball threads are not located there?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I didn't notice it. When I did, I moved it here, where it seems to belong.

Some topics are greater than the sum of their subject matter. I wish the mods would understand that. But the administration seems to believe that anything remotely baseball related should be banned from general view.Yes, this site need a Baseball Forum. But the relationship between the FFA and the Baseball Forum should be more like the relationship between the Shark Pool and the Assistant Coach's Forum & IDP Forum. Lots of threads in the Shark Pool border on ACF or IDP material, but mods let it fly because they know that the topic has a wider interest.Imagine if the mods took every single Shark Pool thread on an individual defensive player and moved it to the IDP forum. That wouldn't be good for business, don't ya think?

Why have a dedicated Baseball Forum if the most important baseball threads are not located there?

I know it's quiet in here but at least the threads are easy to find.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

I didn't notice it. When I did, I moved it here, where it seems to belong.

Some topics are greater than the sum of their subject matter. I wish the mods would understand that. But the administration seems to believe that anything remotely baseball related should be banned from general view.Yes, this site need a Baseball Forum. But the relationship between the FFA and the Baseball Forum should be more like the relationship between the Shark Pool and the Assistant Coach's Forum & IDP Forum. Lots of threads in the Shark Pool border on ACF or IDP material, but mods let it fly because they know that the topic has a wider interest.Imagine if the mods took every single Shark Pool thread on an individual defensive player and moved it to the IDP forum. That wouldn't be good for business, don't ya think?

Why have a dedicated Baseball Forum if the most important baseball threads are not located there?

I know it's quiet in here but at least the threads are easy to find.

I wouldn't have known that Andre Dawson got into the Hall Of Fame if I hadn't seen it in the Free For All.

 

[JJP]

The baseball writers who voted for MVP had for years denied players from last place teams from consideration. Their argument was that the team could finish in last place without him. Fair enough. But why make the exception for Dawson and no one else? 49 homers in a small park where windblown homers are the norm? You'd think if he was the best player in the league he could have gotten them out of the basement. It was a 6 team division for crying out loud, there were plenty of bad teams.

22 road home runs = led the NL.

Jack Clark would have won the MVP but he only played 133 games and got hurt again during the playoffs. He and Ozzie Smith also split the St. Louis vote. Tony.Gwynn hit .370 and Will Clark had a better year than Dawson for a divisional winner. Dawson is a more deserving HoF member than he was a MVP in 1987.

Jack Clark MIGHT have won if he kept playing all season but that's the way it goes. Nobody, in any sport, gets an MVP type award for playing 75% of the games. And BTW, Will Clark did not have a better season than Dawson. About the only stat he had more of was caught stealing.

 

[Koya]

I didn't notice it. When I did, I moved it here, where it seems to belong.

Some topics are greater than the sum of their subject matter. I wish the mods would understand that. But the administration seems to believe that anything remotely baseball related should be banned from general view.Yes, this site need a Baseball Forum. But the relationship between the FFA and the Baseball Forum should be more like the relationship between the Shark Pool and the Assistant Coach's Forum & IDP Forum. Lots of threads in the Shark Pool border on ACF or IDP material, but mods let it fly because they know that the topic has a wider interest.Imagine if the mods took every single Shark Pool thread on an individual defensive player and moved it to the IDP forum. That wouldn't be good for business, don't ya think?

Why have a dedicated Baseball Forum if the most important baseball threads are not located there?

I know it's quiet in here but at least the threads are easy to find.

I wouldn't have known that Andre Dawson got into the Hall Of Fame if I hadn't seen it in the Free For All.

Then come visit the baseball forum more often if baseball is something that interests you (well, interests you enough to know who andre is but not enough to know he was elected to the hall)

 

[TommyGilmore]

Nobody, in any sport, gets an MVP type award for playing 75% of the games.

Bill Walton disagrees.

 

[boubucarow]

The baseball writers who voted for MVP had for years denied players from last place teams from consideration. Their argument was that the team could finish in last place without him. Fair enough. But why make the exception for Dawson and no one else? 49 homers in a small park where windblown homers are the norm? You'd think if he was the best player in the league he could have gotten them out of the basement. It was a 6 team division for crying out loud, there were plenty of bad teams.

22 road home runs = led the NL.

Jack Clark would have won the MVP but he only played 133 games and got hurt again during the playoffs. He and Ozzie Smith also split the St. Louis vote. Tony.Gwynn hit .370 and Will Clark had a better year than Dawson for a divisional winner. Dawson is a more deserving HoF member than he was a MVP in 1987.

Jack Clark MIGHT have won if he kept playing all season but that's the way it goes. Nobody, in any sport, gets an MVP type award for playing 75% of the games. And BTW, Will Clark did not have a better season than Dawson. About the only stat he had more of was caught stealing.

1987 OPS Leaders1. Clark (STL) 1.055

2. Murphy (ATL) .997

3. Davis (CIN) .991

4. Strawberry (NYM) .981

5. Gwynn (SDP) .958

6. Raines (MON) .955

7. Guerrero (LAD) .955

8. Clark (SFG) .951

9. Schmidt (PHI) .936

10. Dawson (CHC) .896

I am a huge Cubs fan and grew up imitating Dawson's batting stance. He didn't deserve the MVP in 1987 and there were plenty of candidates more worthy including Will Clark.

 

[shuke]

I didn't notice it. When I did, I moved it here, where it seems to belong.

Some topics are greater than the sum of their subject matter. I wish the mods would understand that. But the administration seems to believe that anything remotely baseball related should be banned from general view.Yes, this site need a Baseball Forum. But the relationship between the FFA and the Baseball Forum should be more like the relationship between the Shark Pool and the Assistant Coach's Forum & IDP Forum. Lots of threads in the Shark Pool border on ACF or IDP material, but mods let it fly because they know that the topic has a wider interest.Imagine if the mods took every single Shark Pool thread on an individual defensive player and moved it to the IDP forum. That wouldn't be good for business, don't ya think?

Why have a dedicated Baseball Forum if the most important baseball threads are not located there?

I know it's quiet in here but at least the threads are easy to find.

I wouldn't have known that Andre Dawson got into the Hall Of Fame if I hadn't seen it in the Free For All.

Then you're probably not really a baseball fan so the news probably doesn't matter to you.

 

[Spaz]

Andre Dawson will be inducted into the Hall of Fame as a Montreal Expo, despite his preference to go in as a Chicago Cub.

The hall announced its decision Wednesday. Dawson told WMVP-AM in Chicago that he thought hall officials would discuss the issue with him in detail before the decision was made. He said he wanted a chance to tell them "what really catapulted me to Hall of Fame status and pretty much what my preference was but I think their decision had been made. It was a little gut-wrenching for me to hear that but it's their decision."

FOX SPORTS POLL

Who should make this decision?

* The player

* The Hall of Fame

"I'm disappointed," Dawson told the ESPN Radio affiliate. "I can proudly say that because Chicago was my preference."

Dawson's official statement issued by the Hall was more circumspect.

"I respect the Hall of Fame's decision to put an Expos logo on my cap, and I understand their responsibility to make sure the logo represents the greatest impact in my career," Dawson said in Wednesday's statement. "Cubs fans will always be incredibly important in my heart, and I owe them so much for making my time in Chicago memorable, as did the fans in Montreal, Boston and South Florida, my home. But knowing that I'm on the Hall of Fame team is what's most important, as it is the highest honor I could imagine."

The induction ceremony in Cooperstown, N.Y., is July 25.

Dawson played his first 11 seasons with Montreal, batting .285 with 225 home runs and 838 RBIs. He was named an All-Star three times and won the National League Rookie of the Year Award in 1977. He played six seasons with the Cubs, where he won the 1987 NL MVP award after batting .287 with 49 home runs and 137 RBIs. He also played two years each for Boston and Florida before retiring in 1996.

Dawson told WMVP he thought he "would have a little bit more input or I would carry or merit some sort of weight" as to whether he would go into the hall as a Cub or Expo.

"It was to my understanding they would make the determination at the consent of sitting down and discussing it with you prior to making the determination and I just thought it would carry a little bit more weight than it did," he said.

Earlier this month, Hall president Jeff Idelson said "you want the logo to represent where this guy made his greatest impact. He was impactful in Montreal. He was impactful in Chicago, and to a much lesser extent Boston and Florida, but it's more of a case sitting down and collectively make a decision."

The hall noted that Dawson had 1,575 of his 2,774 hits as an Expo, won six of his eight Gold Glove awards in Montreal and led the Expos to their only postseason series win with a five-game victory over the Phillies in 1981. Idelson also said it's the museum's responsibility to "properly interpret the game's history."

"Every Hall of Fame plaque lists all of the teams where an electee played or managed," he said. "Fans of 'The Hawk' in every city in which he played should claim Andre as one of their own."

The Expos franchise, which played its first season in 1969, became the Washington Nationals before the 2005 season. Asked if he believed the hall wanted to preserve Expos history, Dawson said: "The hall clearly stated their major concern was the history of the game."

In 1999, there was a stir caused by reports that Tampa Bay would compensate the newly retired Wade Boggs if his Hall of Fame plaque bore a Devil Rays logo.

Boggs denied it, but the hall two years later revoked the right of a player to choose the logo on the cap on his plaque. Boggs was inducted in 2005 and his plaque sports a Boston Red Sox logo.

Dawson is the only player for 2010 to receive at least 75 percent of the vote to be inducted into the hall. He will be inducted along with manager Whitey Herzog and umpire Doug Harvey. Herzog's plaque will feature a St. Louis Cardinals logo, and the Royals, Rangers and Angels will all be listed.

 

[Smack Tripper]

1) All of Dawson's numbers get a boost because of the current controversy regarding the "juice era" Without the backdrop and context, I don't think he gets in. 2) The "juice" players getting ignored means this was a relatively weak year. Someone had to get in. The HOF for MLB only stays relevant if they have someone to promote and talk about. Any bureaucracies silent goal is to perpetuate itself and expand. Dawson was a "safe pick" No controversies, hard working player, well liked, no major scandals. 3) He's black. Meaning he might get an edge with black voters. Face it, if you have commonality with someone, for any context, you are more likely to garner their positive viewpoint or have them cut you some slack. A Jewish ballplayer might get a little leeway cut by a Jewish voter. Someone who grew up in the same city as the voter. If the former player worked in the media and worked with a specific voter in some context. If the former players wife was friends with the wives of some people in the media. Etc, etc, etc. Those are all factors. It might factor into no votes. It might factor into 1 or 2 votes. 1 or 2 votes can go a long way depending on the situation. 4) The Expos are gone, they are just gone for good. Dawson and Raines get a boost because MLB wants the Expos to have some relevance in terms of a franchise ( if the Expos had nothing and had no success, MLB looks like idiots for putting a franchise there in the first place. Never underestimate the power of wanting to escape any kind of public accountability whatsoever by the average person) 5) The voters are like any other group in our society. There are dominant personalities, there are submissive personalities, there are sheep. More dominant personalities in the voting circle lobbied for Dawson. You don't need to swing all the voters your way, you just need to swing the most influential. People argue a players merit as if it's the only thing in play, it's not sadly. Voters serve themselves and their interests and how Dawson makes them feel about themselves. You can argue that that's not fair and that has nothing to do with what he did as a ballplayer. Of course its not completely fair. But you are dealing with people and how they behave. There are just going to be voters out there who won't vote for a player because he snubbed them for an interview or didn't sign a baseball for his kid or ignored him in the lockerroom after a game or any number of petty reasons. For any of the major sports HOF's process, merit only gets you to the point where you can be subject to their political grinder.

1. Agreed2. Possibly, there was no slam dunk go to guy this year3. Preposterous. How many black guys are in the BBWAA ?4. Highly unlikely for the selection phase, MAYBE in regard to the HOF hat selection but I think not. If anything, I'd be MLB's interest is in forgetting the Expos, if for no other reason than a French Canadian bias. 5. Maybe the voters just realized, the Hawk was no worse than the second best OF in the league from his debut until 1990.I think he might also get some slack given turf seems to have played a role in sapping his longevity due to damaging his knees.

 

[Eephus]

maybe voters thought they were voting for Tim Raines

 

[Smack Tripper]

Bump with a nice article from Jerry Crasnik on ESPN.com:

Friday, July 23, 2010Dawson to finally get his day in the sunBy Jerry CrasnickESPN.com"Andre Dawson, the Hawk. No player in baseball history worked harder, suffered more or did it better than Andre Dawson. He's the best I've ever seen. The Hawk. I watched him win MVP for a last-place team in 1987, and it was the most unbelievable thing I've ever seen in baseball. He did it the right way, the natural way, and he did it in the field and on the bases and in every way, and I hope he will stand up here someday."--Ryne Sandberg during his Baseball Hall of Fame induction speech in July 2005COOPERSTOWN, N.Y. -- Hall of Fame weekend is always an emotional time for inductees. Just imagine the pressure of standing on a stage in a coat and tie in 90-degree heat, trying to summarize a life and thank all the relevant contributors in 15 minutes or less. It can't be easy with the knowledge that 50-something baseball immortals are squirming in their seats and glancing at their watches directly behind you.Andre Dawson played 21 seasons in the major leagues, including six with the Cubs (1987-92).The day is equally poignant for former teammates, who sit among the crowd and reminisce along with the inductee. They're the ones who helped support him through slumps and streaks, on bus rides and plane trips, from rookie year to retirement. They can best relate to the sacrifices a Hall of Fame career entails.Five years ago, Ryne Sandberg received his Hall plaque and used the forum to deliver a celebrity endorsement. Andre Dawson had barely cracked 50 percent in his fourth year on the ballot, and Sandberg feared his former teammate might become an afterthought in an age of cartoonish, steroid-fueled power numbers. So he took a moment in the middle of his speech to pay tribute to the Hawk, a man who embodied everything he held dear about the game."When I talked about respect for the game of baseball, he was the first teammate I thought of who fit that mold," Sandberg said. "I had a fear he'd lose out of going to the Hall of Fame based on the state of the game at that time in the steroid era. I felt like his numbers were being overlooked, and I wanted to put in a good word for him."This Sunday in Cooperstown, the two ex-Cubs will swap roles. Dawson is entering the Hall along with former big league manager Whitey Herzog and umpire Doug Harvey, and Sandberg will be a spectator. He will not be thinking about the heat or fretting about whether he'll be able to catch a late Sunday flight out of Albany."I wouldn't miss it for the world," said Sandberg, manager of the Cubs' Triple-A Iowa farm club. "It'll mean a lot -- the fact that we were teammates and I added him into my speech promoting him for the Hall of Fame. It feels gratifying to be right on that call. Andre is going in, and baseball got it right."Forever the HawkAmid baseball's statistical community, you won't find many people on board with that sentiment.Willie Mays, Barry Bonds and Dawson are the only three players in history with 400 homers and 300 stolen bases. The "Hawk" also won eight Gold Gloves, a rookie of the year award and an MVP while making eight All-Star teams. But he was only a .279 career hitter, and his .323 on-base percentage is easily the lowest of any outfielder in Cooperstown. Scroll through the career OBP listings on Baseball-reference.com, and they end with Randy Bush, Brook Jacoby and Jeff Reed in a tie for 997th place at .3339. Dawson even trails that at .323.Words like "respected" and "feared" can be overused, of course, but there's no doubt Dawson possessed an intimidation factor that resonated in opposing dugouts. How many people know that Dawson, that inveterate hacker, holds the major league record with five intentional walks in a game? It happened May 22, 1990, in a 16-inning affair against Lou Piniella and the Cincinnati Reds, who decided it was a sound strategy to take their chances on Lloyd McClendon, Luis Salazar and Shawon Dunston in the three spots behind Dawson in the Chicago lineup.What attributes help cultivate a player's mystique? In Dawson's case, the nickname is a good place to begin. During Dawson's youth in South Florida, his family referred to him as "Pudgy," a designation that he still can't explain or understand. At age 9, he began hanging around his uncle's senior league team, and "Pudgy" mercifully gave way to "Hawk.""My uncle would hit me ground balls and throw me batting practice, and he said I had this presence," Dawson said. "I would be all over the ball and my approach was different from normal kids. A lot of kids would back away. They would be afraid of the ball. He said that I would attack it and it would remind him of a hawk. And it just stuck all of those years."“ It'll mean a lot -- the fact that we were teammates and I added him into my speech promoting him for the Hall of Fame. It feels gratifying to be right on that call. Andre is going in, and baseball got it right.” -- Former Cubs 2B Ryne SandbergDawson always had a knack for impressing his elders. When he arrived in Montreal for a cameo in September 1976, the veterans saw a quiet kid with a 30-inch waist, skinny legs and the upper body of an NFL cornerback."He looked like a thoroughbred," said Steve Rogers, Dawson's Montreal teammate from 1976 through 1985.Dawson applied himself with a seriousness that belied his youth. For two springs, he worked exhaustively on his throwing motion with pitching coach Jim Brewer to get maximum carry, and baserunners learned it was an exercise in futility to challenge him. Dawson began his career in center field, shifted to right in 1984 when Warren Cromartie left for Japan and won four Gold Gloves in both outfield spots.The Hawk was so strong, he once broke his bat on a check swing -- a la Jim Rice. Rogers will never forget the day Dawson lashed a triple to the gap with pitcher David Palmer on third base, Cromartie on second and Dave Cash on first. Cromartie could move, Cash was fast, too, but Dawson kept gaining on him."It was like the starting gun went off and a track meet broke out," Rogers said.Soon enough, the rock-hard artificial turf at Olympic Stadium did a number on Dawson's knees, one of which was already damaged by a high school football injury. Dawson's Montreal teammates grew accustomed to the sight of him arriving early to prepare for games and leaving late because of the maintenance required to stay ambulatory. He would sit in the trainer's room with both knees packed in ice and do curls with a 35-pound dumbbell. He'd go home and his wife, Vanessa, would have to make emergency runs to the grocery store for more ice bags some nights.The discomfort was so acute, Dawson took pain medication like candy and even considered retirement at age 25. He reportedly underwent 12 operations, developed arthritis in both knees and had double knee replacement surgery on the left one in 2006."I got to the point where I was more or less bone on bone," Dawson said.The Cubbie yearsAlthough Dawson will enter the Hall of Fame as an Expo, he'll be remembered by many for his exploits at Wrigley Field. After making $1.1 million for Montreal in 1986, Dawson spurned a two-year, $2 million offer from the Expos to go on the open market. No team stepped forward because of collusion, so Dawson offered to sign a blank contract and let his new employer fill in the salary. He had his mind set on playing for the Braves, because Atlanta was close to his home in Florida, or the Cubs, because he liked daytime baseball and always enjoyed the banter with the fans at Wrigley.The Chicago players were so anxious to have Dawson in the fold, they lobbied publicly for the team to sign him. Pitcher Rick Sutcliffe offered to donate $100,000 in salary to aid in the fund drive. In response to that gesture, Sutcliffe received a stern, handwritten note from club president Dallas Green telling him to focus on pitching rather than team finances and personnel moves.When Green responded to Dawson's offer with a $500,000 base salary, plus incentives, Dawson stuck to his word and signed the deal."I told them, 'I was man enough to present this to you and I'm going to stand up to it,'" he said.Dawson's fellow Cubs quickly learned that if they were willing to follow, he was happy to lead. The afternoon of July 7, 1987, will forever be ingrained in Cubs lore. After hitting a home run off San Diego's Eric Show, Dawson took a fastball in the face in his second plate appearance. The stands fell silent as Dawson lie on the ground near home plate in a heap. Just when it appeared he might have to be carted off the field, Dawson leaped to his feet and chased Show toward second base, then into the first base dugout."When Hawk got up and took off, it was like the Red Sea parting," Sutcliffe said. "If Hawk would have caught him, he would have killed him."Dawson suffered a gash that required 24 stitches to close. Sutcliffe, who received an eight-day suspension for his part in the Show brawl, still maintains that the lost salary should cover his $100,000 pledge toward the Andre Dawson salary drive.After the incident, Dawson went on to hit 49 homers, drive in 137 runs and win the MVP award for a Cubs team that finished last in the National League East with a 76-85 record.Long before Dawson claimed his MVP award, it was common knowledge that knockdown pitches made him more determined to punish opposing pitchers. Former teammates recalled some particularly epic battles between Dawson and Nolan Ryan through the years. Ryan whiffed Dawson 25 times in 82 at-bats, but the Hawk connected for four home runs and 13 RBIs, and he never went down without a fight.Amid the sanctity of the clubhouse, teammates would occasionally glimpse a different side of Dawson. It was particularly evident in his relationship with Tim Raines, the speedy Montreal outfielder with a chatty demeanor and high-pitched cackle to counter Dawson's stoicism. They were an odd couple, Rock and the Hawk."Every now and then, Raines would just chirp at Hawk, picking at him," Rogers said. "Pretty soon Hawk would say, 'OK, put 'em on.'"The two outfielders, clad in sliding pads, would wrap their hands in sanitary socks and take part in no-holds-barred slap-boxing contests in the clubhouse. Raines, a stocky 5-foot-8, would wade into the fray and try to slip in a few body blows, while Dawson tried to take advantage of his superior reach. Both players would be woofing, as 23 other Expos gathered in a circle and egged them on.After Raines went into rehab for cocaine dependency in the early 1980s, he credited Dawson with helping turn his life around. Raines named his second son Andre, and it was only fitting that the two Andres shared a birth date -- July 10.During a 1987 interview, Raines reflected on Dawson's impact on his life and his career."Everybody should have a friend like Andre. A friend who is always going to be there when you need him," Raines said. "If I call him, I know he will take the time out to talk to me … I really love him like a brother."It's a sentiment that so many of Dawson's former teammates share. Regardless of whether they make it to Cooperstown for his speech Sunday, they will be with him in spirit, from the first word to the last.