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The Jimmy Dore Show (3 Viewers)

I hear you but I don't think the media is meeting that goal very well.  You might try and digest a little more before forming such a definite opinion is all I'm saying whether you like me or not.

 
Franknbeans said:
I hear you but I don't think the media is meeting that goal very well.  You might try and digest a little more before forming such a definite opinion is all I'm saying whether you like me or not.
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I'm a big franknbeans fan, that's one of the reasons I hesitated to comment earlier ;)

I hear you, but I feel like I've got a good enough feel for this guy based on the thread and what I personally heard from him and have read about him to (1) believe my time is better spent elsewhere and (2) think he's peddling stuff that's oversimplified, misleading and in the case of conspiracy theories like Seth Rich just bad for Americans. If someone wants to argue something different here I'm happy to listen- I don't have much time for podcasts and youtube videos but I've got plenty of time to shoot the #### around here.

 
TobiasFunke said:
TIL that this has a funny name- it's called JAQing off.
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If you want to get bent out of shape and blow the Seth Rich thing way out of proportion be my guest.  He walked back much of the reporting immediately when it came out Rod Wheeler was full of ####.  I find this tendency to shame people for asking questions about a subject in which we don't know all the answers to be far more pervasive than the questions themselves.  

To credulously act like you're offended by harmful conspiracy theories while spending a year and a half musing over the notion that the democratically elected president is a Manchurian candidate is really something else man. 

 
ren hoek said:
If you want to get bent out of shape and blow the Seth Rich thing way out of proportion be my guest.  He walked back much of the reporting immediately when it came out Rod Wheeler was full of ####.  I find this tendency to shame people for asking questions about a subject in which we don't know all the answers to be far more pervasive than the questions themselves.  

To credulously act like you're offended by harmful conspiracy theories while spending a year and a half musing over the notion that the democratically elected president is a Manchurian candidate is really something else man. 
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First, it's not just "asking questions." When you put it in context, the clear suggestion is that there's a conspiracy afoot. The link about "JAQing off" explains this fairly clearly, and you're smart enough to understand it anyway.  I'm not sure why you're pretending otherwise.

Second, I would give him (and anyone) a pass for buying into a single nutjob conspiracy theory, even one that causes harm to a grieving family, if it's a one-off mistake.  In Dore's case it clearly is not. He pushed baseless Syria conspiracy theories, he speculated that Hillary Clinton had Parkinson's Disease and that she tried to kill Julian Assange with a drone, among other things. To call him irresponsible is generous, to say the least.

Finally, I'm happy to discuss in detail anything and everything I and others have said about Russian cyberattacks on the United States, the possibility of the Trump campaign/administration cooperation with those and other efforts related to influencing the 2016 election, and the possibility that Russia has kompromat on Trump and is forcing his hand on policy decisions as a result in the long and detail-oriented thread on those subjects.  Many other posters are as well. The thread includes significant facts as well as positing that Russian involvement with Trump is an Occam's Razor explanation for a number of his administration's policy decisions and their actions (or inaction, as the case may be) in response to media reports and the Mueller probe, while also inviting anyone who cares to comment to offer alternative explanations for those decisions and actions.

The difference between this approach and simply saying "is Donald Trump actually a Russian spy ? I'm just asking questions!!!!" is night and day. It's bizarre that you don't seem to grasp the difference between the two, and odd that you discount the Russia investigation even after having been proven wrong about Russia's actions and about Julian Assange and Wikipedia while falling for the half-baked rants of a stand-up comic. And it's telling that you choose to respond to the Russia interference/Trump complicity questions only with broad swipes at "conspiracy theories" while refusing to engage on the details and offering alternative explanations to the Occams' Razor questions offered up despite countless opportunities to do so.

 
TobiasFunke said:
First, it's not just "asking questions." When you put it in context, the clear suggestion is that there's a conspiracy afoot. The link about "JAQing off" explains this fairly clearly, and you're smart enough to understand it anyway.  I'm not sure why you're pretending otherwise.
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I don't really care.  I think there's something ####ed up there when a guy gets shot in the back, none of his stuff gets taken, no camera footage, no suspects, Brazile feared for her life, no details about what was on his laptop, no bodycam footage.  Just a "botched robbery" with no apparent reason to believe it was a robbery at all.  I think it was reasonable to speculate on that at the time and I'm rather unapologetic about it until more information proves otherwise.  

TobiasFunke said:
Second, I would give him (and anyone) a pass for buying into a single nutjob conspiracy theory, even one that causes harm to a grieving family, if it's a one-off mistake.  In Dore's case it clearly is not. He pushed baseless Syria conspiracy theories, he speculated that Hillary Clinton had Parkinson's Disease and that she tried to kill Julian Assange with a drone, among other things. To call him irresponsible is generous, to say the least.
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Ok, you're being very disingenuous here.  The Syria "conspiracy theories" about chemical weapons attacks being staged have been endorsed by the UK's former ambassador to Syria and Admiral West, a retired naval officer.  It's not just some outlandish conspiracy.  And if you use your brain and actually think about it, considering how absolutely dumbfounding it is for him to use chemical weapons when he's right on the cusp of winning the war, the one thing Assad could do to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, it actually makes a lot of sense.  

I don't want to dredge up stuff about Hildog's health problems, but those things are certainly there if you care to look for them.  I don't remember him speculating that Clinton wanted to assassinate Assange with a drone strike, so I watched the video on the rationalwiki page.  It was a video based on a True Pundit report, so I don't know how reputable the report is, but given her affinity for war criminals like Henry Kissinger and her ability to laugh at Gaddafi's death by being anally violated with a sword, would it really be a big shocker that she sees foreign opponents as fodder to be exterminated?  No, it wouldn't.  

TobiasFunke said:
The difference between this approach and simply saying "is Donald Trump actually a Russian spy ? I'm just asking questions!!!!" is night and day. It's bizarre that you don't seem to grasp the difference between the two, and odd that you discount the Russia investigation even after having been proven wrong about Russia's actions and about Julian Assange and Wikipedia while falling for the half-baked rants of a stand-up comic. And it's telling that you choose to respond to the Russia interference/Trump complicity questions only with broad swipes at "conspiracy theories" while refusing to engage on the details and offering alternative explanations to the Occams' Razor questions offered up despite countless opportunities to do so.
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We have discussed this at great length in the other thread, and simply disagree.  I haven't been proven wrong about the hack, because the hack was never proven to be of Russian origin, or that it even happened at all.  I don't believe I ever disputed that IRA may have ran ads on behalf of the Russian state, but I have disputed how completely bogus the notion is that Bernie coloring book ads and puppy pages affected the election in some tangible way.  What exactly have I been proven wrong about with regard to Assange or Wikileaks?  

The fact is, blaming Russia misses the point.  Because none of it would disprove the fact that Democrats rigged the election against Sanders.  THEY interfered with the elections.  THEIR collusion with the media outlets to "maximize" "pied-piper" Trump got us Trump.  THEY'RE the ones that lost to Trump.  Not Russia.  They haven't changed or learned anything since 2016.  That's the real explanation for what happened.  The overly simplistic explanation is that US voters just willynilly decided they want a racist misogynist pgrabber for president.  Please.  

And really, recalling that (I believe) you and TGUNZ have gone to bat for the DNC being a private organization that can essentially rig its own primaries anyway, it's hardly worth the time and energy to try convincing you otherwise.  I think you're a real bright guy with an incisive viewpoint worth considering on a lot of different subjects, but think your loyalty to the Democratic party in the face of astounding corruption and insider Beltway politics is beyond saving or arguing with at this point. 

People that tune in to Jimmy don't tune in to hear conspiracy theories.  They tune in because he sees this big corporate-run oligarchy for what it is.  They share his disdain for the system that gave us Trump and this neoliberal wasteland.  Whether you disagree with him or not, these sorts of smears are about as cheap and disingenuous as it gets.  

 
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ren hoek said:
I don't really care.  I think there's something ####ed up there when a guy gets shot in the back, none of his stuff gets taken, no camera footage, no suspects, Brazile feared for her life, no details about what was on his laptop, no bodycam footage.  Just a "botched robbery" with no apparent reason to believe it was a robbery at all.  I think it was reasonable to speculate on that at the time and I'm rather unapologetic about it until more information proves otherwise.  

Ok, you're being very disingenuous here.  The Syria "conspiracy theories" about chemical weapons attacks being staged have been endorsed by the UK's former ambassador to Syria and Admiral West, a retired naval officer.  It's not just some outlandish conspiracy.  And if you use your brain and actually think about it, considering how absolutely dumbfounding it is for him to use chemical weapons when he's right on the cusp of winning the war, the one thing Assad could do to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, it actually makes a lot of sense.  

I don't want to dredge up stuff about Hildog's health problems, but those things are certainly there if you care to look for them.  I don't remember him speculating that Clinton wanted to assassinate Assange with a drone strike, so I watched the video on the rationalwiki page.  It was a video based on a True Pundit report, so I don't know how reputable the report is, but given her affinity for war criminals like Henry Kissinger and her ability to laugh at Gaddafi's death by being anally violated with a sword, would it really be a big shocker that she sees foreign opponents as fodder to be exterminated?  No, it wouldn't.  

We have discussed this at great length in the other thread, and simply disagree.  I haven't been proven wrong about the hack, because the hack was never proven to be of Russian origin, or that it even happened at all.  I don't believe I ever disputed that IRA may have ran ads on behalf of the Russian state, but I have disputed how completely bogus the notion is that Bernie coloring book ads and puppy pages affected the election in some tangible way.  What exactly have I been proven wrong about with regard to Assange or Wikileaks?  

The fact is, blaming Russia misses the point.  Because none of it would disprove the fact that Democrats rigged the election against Sanders.  THEY interfered with the elections.  THEIR collusion with the media outlets to "maximize" "pied-piper" Trump got us Trump.  THEY'RE the ones that lost to Trump.  Not Russia.  They haven't changed or learned anything since 2016.  That's the real explanation for what happened.  The overly simplistic explanation is that US voters just willynilly decided they want a racist misogynist pgrabber for president.  Please.  

And really, recalling that (I believe) you and TGUNZ have gone to bat for the DNC being a private organization that can essentially rig its own primaries anyway, it's hardly worth the time and energy to try convincing you otherwise.  I think you're a real bright guy with an incisive viewpoint worth considering on a lot of different subjects, but think your loyalty to the Democratic party in the face of astounding corruption and insider Beltway politics is beyond saving or arguing with at this point. 

People that tune in to Jimmy don't tune in to hear conspiracy theories.  They tune in because he sees this big corporate-run oligarchy for what it is.  They share his disdain for the system that gave us Trump and this neoliberal wasteland.  Whether you disagree with him or not, these sorts of smears are about as cheap and disingenuous as it gets.  
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On the bolded- they absolutely have.  Anyone who looks at the actual candidates and the messaging of Dems since the 2016 elections can see it.  They're running on health care, they're running on the wage inequality, they're running against Wall Street, for consumers, for unions, for responsible gun control. In fact a very good way to know if someone is worth listening to on politics is to see whether they're actually listening to the candidates and the messaging, or if they're just repeating this cheap false narrative about Dems because they're not actually paying close enough attention on a day-to-day, week-to-week, campaign-to-campaign basis to know otherwise. And now we've come full circle to your friend Jimmy Dore, haven't we?

With the exception of the bolded, I couldn't draft a reply more effective then just letting this doozy breathe.

 
TobiasFunke said:
On the bolded- they absolutely have.  Anyone who looks at the actual candidates and the messaging of Dems since the 2016 elections can see it.  They're running on health care, they're running on the wage inequality, they're running against Wall Street, for consumers, for unions, for responsible gun control. In fact a very good way to know if someone is worth listening to on politics is to see whether they're actually listening to the candidates and the messaging, or if they're just repeating this cheap false narrative about Dems because they're not actually paying close enough attention on a day-to-day, week-to-week, campaign-to-campaign basis to know otherwise. And now we've come full circle to your friend Jimmy Dore, haven't we?

With the exception of the bolded, I couldn't draft a reply more effective then just letting this doozy breathe.
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No they haven't.  What they've talked about is Russia.  Now, realizing what a complete failure of an electoral strategy it was, their thinking is 'quick, act like progressives!'  

The DCCC is fighting progressive candidates to prop up centrist toads.  From military spending to the drug war to arming Saudi Arabia/Israel to domestic spying to what now looks like a Haspel nomination, the Dems have been there for Trump at every turn.  They haven't resisted or stood up for a ####### thing.  It's a good thing there are people like Jimmy bringing awareness to this fact.  With any luck Dem voters won't have to settle for neoliberal trash again.  

 
ren hoek said:
I think there's something ####ed up there when a guy gets shot in the back, none of his stuff gets taken, no camera footage, no suspects
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This happens in New Orleans. It happens in DC. It probably happens in Louisville. I think DC metro police has a list of a couple hundred unsolved murders just like this. I’ve had a lot to drink in my hometown but I can tell you some poor loaded young guy from Omaha who moved here probably would walk through neighborhoods alone I’d never walk through alone. Most understandably sad thing about the whole story.

 
ren hoek said:
No they haven't.  What they've talked about is Russia.  Now, realizing what a complete failure of an electoral strategy it was, their thinking is 'quick, act like progressives!'  

The DCCC is fighting progressive candidates to prop up centrist toads.  From military spending to the drug war to arming Saudi Arabia/Israel to domestic spying to what now looks like a Haspel nomination, the Dems have been there for Trump at every turn.  They haven't resisted or stood up for a ####### thing.  It's a good thing there are people like Jimmy bringing awareness to this fact.  With any luck Dem voters won't have to settle for neoliberal trash again.  
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Wrong. There have been a number of special elections and tons of primary races since 2016 and there's been almost no focus on Russia or other Trump legal issues in any of them. I know because I follow those races and the reporting on them instead of getting my information about political trends secondhand from a failed stand-up comic turned bat#### crazy conspiracy theorist who apparently doesn't bother to follow the races and candidates and read the reporting on them either.

 
ren hoek said:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/democratic-party-files-lawsuit-alleging-russia-the-trump-campaign-and-wikileaks-conspired-to-disrupt-the-2016-campaign/2018/04/20/befe8364-4418-11e8-8569-26fda6b404c7_story.html?utm_term=.fbbeb6b102b6
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OMG, a lawsuit that nobody has talked about since the day it was filed and likely won't be resolved any time soon? 

Well that definitely nullifies the messaging of dozens of candidates for state and national office across the country over 18 months as documented by hundreds of stories on their campaigns, almost all of which have focused largely on health care, the tax bill, wage inequality and inequality of opportunity, and protections for consumers.  After all, the stand-up comic who to my knowledge has no previous experience working in politics, political media or on campaigns told me so on his youtube channel that first gathered an audience by railing against the Democratic establishment while pushing conspiracy theories, and there's no way he'd steer us wrong!

 
Very much enjoying the notion that the people who are misleading you are the reporters covering these campaigns who stake their reputations and careers on accuracy, while the guy whose previously middling career got a huge boost via youtube broadcasts that depend largely on continuing to give his audience exactly what it wants is the one telling it to you straight.

 
ren hoek said:
We have discussed this at great length in the other thread, and simply disagree.  I haven't been proven wrong about the hack, because the hack was never proven to be of Russian origin, or that it even happened at all.  I don't believe I ever disputed that IRA may have ran ads on behalf of the Russian state, but I have disputed how completely bogus the notion is that Bernie coloring book ads and puppy pages affected the election in some tangible way.  What exactly have I been proven wrong about with regard to Assange or Wikileaks?   
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Oops facts. 

 
I watch Jimmy for entertainment value.  I decipher for myself what's true and what isn't.  You might not always agree with them, but his videos are generally sourced pretty cleanly.  He rarely comments on something without providing source material such as broadcast footage or direct quote from a news article or opinion piece.  

I wouldn't call it a news show perse, but he does talk about things that are important and I agree with where he's coming from most of the time.  

 
ren hoek said:
I watch Jimmy for entertainment value.  I decipher for myself what's true and what isn't.  You might not always agree with them, but his videos are generally sourced pretty cleanly.  He rarely comments on something without providing source material such as broadcast footage or direct quote from a news article or opinion piece.  

I wouldn't call it a news show perse, but he does talk about things that are important and I agree with where he's coming from most of the time.  
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I would assert that neither you nor Jimmy Dore are good at this. 

 
ren hoek said:
I watch Jimmy for entertainment value.  I decipher for myself what's true and what isn't.  You might not always agree with them, but his videos are generally sourced pretty cleanly.  He rarely comments on something without providing source material such as broadcast footage or direct quote from a news article or opinion piece.  

I wouldn't call it a news show perse, but he does talk about things that are important and I agree with where he's coming from most of the time.  
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This may be true and certainly sounds reasonable. And I'll buy that people can set aside the conspiracy theory nonsense, even if I find it totally discrediting.

But the fact remains that he's giving you an incomplete picture of the current state of the Democratic party because (I'm guessing) it suits his needs and fits his message.  Anyone can argue that the party is doing X if it only looks at facts that support the conclusion. There are literally thousands of Democratic politicians and party officials; if you want to push a narrative that they have learned nothing from 2016 and are pushing the same old centrist Trump-attacking narrative you can certainly do so by picking through quotes and actions of those people to find what you want.  But doing that requires you to ignore the significant evidence to the contrary, just a fraction of which is highlighted in that CNN article I linked to previously.

Anyway, this seems like a good place for a truce. I didn't post in this thread for months, because like I said earlier I like the posters who dig this guy and he's fairly low on the list of bad/harmful political media in the era of Sean Hannity et al. But I wanted to point out that false narrative about the party direction, because I've seen it elsewhere and it's annoying. It's reminiscent of the coverage of Clinton's "deplorables" speech, all of which left out that the fact that the next few sentences were all about reaching out to and being sympathetic towards the disaffected voters she was supposedly insulting. All I ask for is fairness.

 
Just a little more support from what I've been saying here:
 

Brian Schatz @brianschatz

Let these guys run on MS-13. We will run on healthcare, tax fairness, Internet Freedom, and debt free college.

10:29 AM - 17 May 2018
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That's today's date, direct from the twitter feed of one of the most outspoken anti-Trump members of the party, a man whose spot in the Senate is as safe as anyone. 

They get it.

 
TobiasFunke said:
If someone is sympathetic to and amplifies insane and hurtful conspiracy theories related to politics, perhaps you should consider whether their other points related to politics are as valid as you think they are. 
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There are literally thousands of conspiracy theories out threre from JFK to Elvis, to Jim Morrison to MKUltra that are bandied about, but only two that I know of are you not supposed to even talk about...

 
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