The Johan Santana rumor mill (1 Viewer)

[Funkley]

By the way.. just wanted to say this has been a fun discussion with the few baessball nuts who are still haunting this forum in the off season :thumbsup:I know we're all caustic #######s to each other on here but It'd be a blast to grab a beer and talk hardball with any one of you clowns. My B&M buddies are logheads when it comes to anything under the surface of the game.

I'd even have a beer with shady.......probably.

 

[cobalt_27]

I figured the Ellsbury haters will get a kick out of this...from Peter Gammon's blog:

One AL scout says, "Watch Ellsbury's power develop. I'll wager right now that he ends up with more home run power than Grady Sizemore."

That should read "A Red Sox scout says"...

I'd highly doubt that Ellsbury develops 25+ HR power.

I still like the kid an awful lot. In many ways, he's a young Kenny Lofton with better range and a better attitude. He's going to be a valuable player.

Wow. Sizemore has 40 homer power and a scout thinks Elsbury is going to match him? I think the AL Scout is Peter Gammons. Elsbury is going to be a glue guy, IMO. Great defensive player, table setter on Offense, All Star potential, no doubt. But to say he is going to be a 3-4-5 hitter is wishful thinking IMO.

And completely insane.

Yep. Ellsbury is a natural born leadoff hitter and centerfeilder. Absurd Speed, fantastic eye for contact, flashy glove. If they could just bump his plate discipline JUST A BIT he'd be perfect in the role (not that he's bad now).

Emphasis on absurd speed. First game I ever saw him live was late-June or -July against the Rangers. He beat out a routine grounder to SS for what I think was his first MLB hit. But, I swear, it was unlike anything I'd ever seen. Sort of like he was playing softball and only had to run 60 feet to first. As a baseball fan (and a Yanks fan), it's one of my top-3 most memorable moments I've seen at a live game. He's filthy.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

Apropos only of the "most incredible things you've seen live" comment, I saw Jeter score from first on a ground ball single up the middle...

The bases were loaded with two outs, full count, and he was taking such a ridiculous running lead off of first as the pitch was being delivered that I wondered why the pitcher didn't step off...Had he done so, he could have walked over to first and picked Jeter off...

So the hitter (Posada maybe?) grounds it up the middle, and Jeter comes tearing around 3rd to score as the thrw came into the cut off guy...

Just a shake your head thing that I might never see again in a game...

 

[Liquid Tension]

It is fantastic news that Pettitte is returning. In my blog I said that it would be shocking if Pettitte posted a sub 4 ERA, but he almost did it. While he still allows too many hits, he pitched better last year for the Yankees then any of his final years with them. He used both sides of the plate much more effectively. Pettitte gives them a very solid starter.

Artificial imo. He can't keep posting 1.45 whips and still keep that era down. He'll win a lot of 6-5 games and that makes him valuable but he's a long way from being effective anymore.

You would think that but Pettitte has done that his entire career. His career WHIP is 1.36 and this year was similar to his last year with the Yanks. I would expect an ERA of 4.30

 

[Liquid Tension]

It is fantastic news that Pettitte is returning. In my blog I said that it would be shocking if Pettitte posted a sub 4 ERA, but he almost did it. While he still allows too many hits, he pitched better last year for the Yankees then any of his final years with them. He used both sides of the plate much more effectively. Pettitte gives them a very solid starter.

Artificial imo. He can't keep posting 1.45 whips and still keep that era down. He'll win a lot of 6-5 games and that makes him valuable but he's a long way from being effective anymore.

The biggest value to the Yanks will be in his helping the younger pitchers adapt, and in eating up 200+ innings, meaning the youngsters won't have to pitch as many high leverage innings this season...

Don't forget the work ethic that Clemens brought to Andy. If you want to be great you have to work a lot harder than you think

 

[Liquid Tension]

Red Sox fans have to be the most delusional people on the planet. Please, any of you, explain to me how ANY and EVERY scenario makes Theo a genius and the Yankees fools. It's amazing how you can spin anything into "Theos a genius and the Yankees suck", absolutely amazing.

While your over-dramatization is comical, Do we really need to look at the results in the last 4-5 years since Theo has been GM? Theo was hired before the 2003 season2003 - ALCS2004 -World Series Title2005 - ALDS(Theo take hiatus for most of offseason)2006 - Didn't make playoffs2007 - World Series TitleSo since taking the helm before the 2003 season Theo has led the Sox to the playoffs every year that he had the reins for the offseason... including 2 World Series titles. Not too shabby for a delusional bunch of also-rans.

Disgraceful to not make the playoffs with that payroll!

It was meant to be tongue in cheek, but I actually believe that with the Yanks so maybe it is true for the RedSox as well.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

Apropos only of the "most incredible things you've seen live" comment, I saw Jeter score from first on a ground ball single up the middle...

The bases were loaded with two outs, full count, and he was taking such a ridiculous running lead off of first as the pitch was being delivered that I wondered why the pitcher didn't step off...Had he done so, he could have walked over to first and picked Jeter off...

So the hitter (Posada maybe?) grounds it up the middle, and Jeter comes tearing around 3rd to score as the thrw came into the cut off guy...

Just a shake your head thing that I might never see again in a game...

July 19th, 2003Here's the inning PBP (GB Retrosheet.org):

YANKEES 5TH: Mondesi singled to left; Zeile singled to left

[Mondesi to second]; Flaherty reached on a fielder's choice on a

sacrifice bunt [Mondesi to third, Zeile to second]; Wilson

grounded into a double play (third to catcher to first) [Zeile

to third, Flaherty to second, Mondesi out at home]; Soriano

walked; Jeter singled to right [Zeile scored, Flaherty to third,

Soriano to second]; Giambi singled to center [Flaherty scored,

Soriano scored, Jeter scored]; Sabathia threw a wild pitch

[Giambi to second]; Williams grounded out (pitcher to first); 4

R, 4 H, 0 E, 1 LOB. Indians 4, Yankees 6.

 

[[icon]]

Emphasis on absurd speed. First game I ever saw him live was late-June or -July against the Rangers. He beat out a routine grounder to SS for what I think was his first MLB hit. But, I swear, it was unlike anything I'd ever seen. Sort of like he was playing softball and only had to run 60 feet to first.

As a baseball fan (and a Yanks fan), it's one of my top-3 most memorable moments I've seen at a live game. He's filthy.

Yeah I was up in boston visiting family watching that game on TV (unfortunately) with them and when I saw that I was like Even the announcers were borderline speechless. I almost dont' want any deals to go down with him just so I can watch him mature in a Boston Uni... it would kill me to have to root against the kid.

 

[[icon]]

Apropos only of the "most incredible things you've seen live" comment, I saw Jeter score from first on a ground ball single up the middle...

The bases were loaded with two outs, full count, and he was taking such a ridiculous running lead off of first as the pitch was being delivered that I wondered why the pitcher didn't step off...Had he done so, he could have walked over to first and picked Jeter off...

So the hitter (Posada maybe?) grounds it up the middle, and Jeter comes tearing around 3rd to score as the thrw came into the cut off guy...

Just a shake your head thing that I might never see again in a game...

July 19th, 2003Here's the inning PBP (GB Retrosheet.org):

YANKEES 5TH: Mondesi singled to left; Zeile singled to left

[Mondesi to second]; Flaherty reached on a fielder's choice on a

sacrifice bunt [Mondesi to third, Zeile to second]; Wilson

grounded into a double play (third to catcher to first) [Zeile

to third, Flaherty to second, Mondesi out at home]; Soriano

walked; Jeter singled to right [Zeile scored, Flaherty to third,

Soriano to second]; Giambi singled to center [Flaherty scored,

Soriano scored, Jeter scored]; Sabathia threw a wild pitch

[Giambi to second]; Williams grounded out (pitcher to first); 4

R, 4 H, 0 E, 1 LOB. Indians 4, Yankees 6.

What jeter lacks in speed (which isn't a ton), he makes up for with instincts and aggressiveness.

 

[Liquid Tension]

It is fantastic news that Pettitte is returning. In my blog I said that it would be shocking if Pettitte posted a sub 4 ERA, but he almost did it.

Oh jesus....

What's your problem?

 

[[icon]]

It is fantastic news that Pettitte is returning. In my blog I said that it would be shocking if Pettitte posted a sub 4 ERA, but he almost did it.

Oh jesus....

What's your problem?

It's just cute.. you've got a blog. Aww

 

[Liquid Tension]

It is fantastic news that Pettitte is returning. In my blog I said that it would be shocking if Pettitte posted a sub 4 ERA, but he almost did it.

Oh jesus....

I call it a blog, but it is a casual blog that started with just about 10 friends and it is up to I guess around 75. It is done via email and I make predictions BEFORE they happen for all to see and I analyze games. At the end of the year I go through my predictions and call myself out when needed, but my track record is strong.For example, I said that when the Red Sox got Beckett he would be a huge issue for the Yanks and that was a fantastic pickup. After his 1st year I said that he made me look stupid, but the Red Sox made a great signing to get Beckett at such a low number as he is a clear top 10 pitcher in my opinion. unfortunately for the Yanks I was right. I also said that when the Yanks got Giambi that I thought he was a "fantastic hitter, but the contract they gave him will be an albatross the last 2-3 years of it" I didn't know about steroids but it was correct. I could go on, but if anyone really cares I could email them (or post) my actual blogs. I did about 20 last year.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Guys better than Haren:HalladayBeckettBedardKazmirSantanaVerlanderSabathiaLackeyHudsonSmoltzZambranoOswaltSheetsPeavyWebb

I haven't analyzed where I would rank Haren but it would be out of the top 10, although I feel he had a top 10 year this year with the 6th best ERA in baseball, the best QS % and doing so in the AL. His OPS against was 21st at .687 (13th in the AL)Can he continue is the question. I don't think he is a sub 3.00 guy which is probably why Beane is seeing what is out there for him.

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

Sad thing is that you could do a lot worse than finding the next Juan Pierre

It's true. Most "prospects" would kill to have his career. I don't wish the guy upon my hometown team but the Denard Span's of the world will never even grow up to be Juan Pierre.

Well, sure. If someone was dumb enough to play me, they'd kill to have my career too.

 

[cobalt_27]

Guys better than Haren:HalladayBeckettBedardKazmirSantanaVerlanderSabathiaLackeyHudsonSmoltzZambranoOswaltSheetsPeavyWebb

I haven't analyzed where I would rank Haren but it would be out of the top 10, although I feel he had a top 10 year this year with the 6th best ERA in baseball, the best QS % and doing so in the AL. His OPS against was 21st at .687 (13th in the AL)Can he continue is the question. I don't think he is a sub 3.00 guy which is probably why Beane is seeing what is out there for him.

He's a solid pitcher, no doubt. But, he's a different pitcher away from Oakland. Knocks about 0.5 points off his ERA and about 11 points off his WHIP.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Apropos only of the "most incredible things you've seen live" comment, I saw Jeter score from first on a ground ball single up the middle...

The bases were loaded with two outs, full count, and he was taking such a ridiculous running lead off of first as the pitch was being delivered that I wondered why the pitcher didn't step off...Had he done so, he could have walked over to first and picked Jeter off...

So the hitter (Posada maybe?) grounds it up the middle, and Jeter comes tearing around 3rd to score as the thrw came into the cut off guy...

Just a shake your head thing that I might never see again in a game...

July 19th, 2003Here's the inning PBP (GB Retrosheet.org):

YANKEES 5TH: Mondesi singled to left; Zeile singled to left

[Mondesi to second]; Flaherty reached on a fielder's choice on a

sacrifice bunt [Mondesi to third, Zeile to second]; Wilson

grounded into a double play (third to catcher to first) [Zeile

to third, Flaherty to second, Mondesi out at home]; Soriano

walked; Jeter singled to right [Zeile scored, Flaherty to third,

Soriano to second]; Giambi singled to center [Flaherty scored,

Soriano scored, Jeter scored]; Sabathia threw a wild pitch

[Giambi to second]; Williams grounded out (pitcher to first); 4

R, 4 H, 0 E, 1 LOB. Indians 4, Yankees 6.

Cool moment. same for Cobalt, although as a Yankee fan I would be more upset Icon made a good point about getting some baseball talk in;

A quick moment and memory I had was when my brother and I bought my dad (now passed away) tickets to a Yankee Red Sox game and Clemens was on the mound against the Yanks (I don't remember the date, but I guess it was around 1988 or so). The Yanks fell behind 9-0 going into the bottom of the 4th and my dad looks at us and says thanks guys...Well the Yanks put up 10 or 11 runs in that 4th inning and it was one of the greatest family times (maybe that is sad???) The Red Sox came back and tied it up but the Yanks hit a HR in the 8th or 9th to win it (I think it was Pagliarulo). I need to try and locate that game.

Edited to add link (for some reason I kept getting an error using the Link button? I was wrong it was in 11 innings and Pags scored the winning run and didn't HR

query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE6DB1431F934A15755C0A961948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

 

[shadyridr]

BTW I was just busting balls with the Pierre comparison. I think Damon is a fair comparison.

 

[shadyridr]

By the way.. just wanted to say this has been a fun discussion with the few baessball nuts who are still haunting this forum in the off season :thumbsup:I know we're all caustic #######s to each other on here but It'd be a blast to grab a beer and talk hardball with any one of you clowns. My B&M buddies are logheads when it comes to anything under the surface of the game.

Best sport in the world

 

[Liquid Tension]

By the way.. just wanted to say this has been a fun discussion with the few baessball nuts who are still haunting this forum in the off season :thumbsup:I know we're all caustic #######s to each other on here but It'd be a blast to grab a beer and talk hardball with any one of you clowns. My B&M buddies are logheads when it comes to anything under the surface of the game.

Best sport in the world

Does anyone know if Joba is going to keep the same number?

 

[Tremendous Upside]

Apropos only of the "most incredible things you've seen live" comment, I saw Jeter score from first on a ground ball single up the middle...

The bases were loaded with two outs, full count, and he was taking such a ridiculous running lead off of first as the pitch was being delivered that I wondered why the pitcher didn't step off...Had he done so, he could have walked over to first and picked Jeter off...

So the hitter (Posada maybe?) grounds it up the middle, and Jeter comes tearing around 3rd to score as the thrw came into the cut off guy...

Just a shake your head thing that I might never see again in a game...

July 19th, 2003Here's the inning PBP (GB Retrosheet.org):

YANKEES 5TH: Mondesi singled to left; Zeile singled to left

[Mondesi to second]; Flaherty reached on a fielder's choice on a

sacrifice bunt [Mondesi to third, Zeile to second]; Wilson

grounded into a double play (third to catcher to first) [Zeile

to third, Flaherty to second, Mondesi out at home]; Soriano

walked; Jeter singled to right [Zeile scored, Flaherty to third,

Soriano to second]; Giambi singled to center [Flaherty scored,

Soriano scored, Jeter scored]; Sabathia threw a wild pitch

[Giambi to second]; Williams grounded out (pitcher to first); 4

R, 4 H, 0 E, 1 LOB. Indians 4, Yankees 6.

Cool moment. same for Cobalt, although as a Yankee fan I would be more upset Icon made a good point about getting some baseball talk in;

A quick moment and memory I had was when my brother and I bought my dad (now passed away) tickets to a Yankee Red Sox game and Clemens was on the mound against the Yanks (I don't remember the date, but I guess it was around 1988 or so). The Yanks fell behind 9-0 going into the bottom of the 4th and my dad looks at us and says thanks guys...Well the Yanks put up 10 or 11 runs in that 4th inning and it was one of the greatest family times (maybe that is sad???) The Red Sox came back and tied it up but the Yanks hit a HR in the 8th or 9th to win it (I think it was Pagliarulo). I need to try and locate that game.

Edited to add link (for some reason I kept getting an error using the Link button? I was wrong it was in 11 innings and Pags scored the winning run and didn't HR

query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE6DB1431F934A15755C0A961948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

I remember that game vividly...I was 9, about to turn 10, and school had just recently finished for the summer...

My dad and I had to drive into Manhattan to help my grandfather with some stuff around his apartment...

We didn't have cable, so we were listening to the game on the radio...

Heard them go down 9-0, then started to drive home to Queens, listening to the game on the radio in the car...

Went nuts as the Yanks scored their 11 runs:

YANKEES 3RD: Randolph singled to center; Ward flied out to

right; Mattingly singled to center [Randolph to third]; Winfield

homered [Randolph scored, Mattingly scored]; Washington walked;

Easler doubled to left [Washington to third]; Pagliarulo singled

to center [Washington scored, Easler to third]; Salas walked

[Pagliarulo to second]; Tolleson singled to left [Easler scored,

Pagliarulo scored, Salas to third, Tolleson to second (error by

Rice)]; CRAWFORD REPLACED CLEMENS (PITCHING); Randolph walked;

Ward singled to right [salas scored, Tolleson scored, Randolph

to third]; Mattingly doubled to left [Randolph scored, Ward out

at third (left to third)]; Winfield singled to left [Mattingly

scored, Winfield to second (on throw to home)]; BOLTON REPLACED

CRAWFORD (PITCHING); Bolton threw a wild pitch [Winfield to

third]; Washington walked; Gedman allowed a passed ball

[Winfield scored (unearned), Washington to second]; Easler

grounded out (second to first); 11 R (10 ER), 9 H, 1 E, 1 LOB.

Red Sox 9, Yankees 11.

We sat there in the car outside of our apartment listening to extra innings b/c we didn't want to risk missing anything...Great memory...My dad still references the game anytime the Yanks start off a game down...

"Remember that game against Clemens in 1987," he says...

 

[the moops]

Emphasis on absurd speed. First game I ever saw him live was late-June or -July against the Rangers. He beat out a routine grounder to SS for what I think was his first MLB hit. But, I swear, it was unlike anything I'd ever seen. Sort of like he was playing softball and only had to run 60 feet to first.

As a baseball fan (and a Yanks fan), it's one of my top-3 most memorable moments I've seen at a live game. He's filthy.

Yeah I was up in boston visiting family watching that game on TV (unfortunately) with them and when I saw that I was like Even the announcers were borderline speechless. I almost dont' want any deals to go down with him just so I can watch him mature in a Boston Uni... it would kill me to have to root against the kid.

You know, you could still root for him if he plays for the Twins. It is allowed.

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

It is fantastic news that Pettitte is returning. In my blog I said that it would be shocking if Pettitte posted a sub 4 ERA, but he almost did it.

Oh jesus....

What's your problem?

Kazanski. The correct quote is, "What's your problem, Kazanski?" HTH

 

[Captain Hook]

I have a feeling if both the Sox and Yankees deals stay as they are currently constructed, that he'll stay a Twin. Quite frankly Hughes, Cabrera, and a third tier prospect isn't enough for the best pitcher in baseball when you can get two 1st round picks the following year.

The deals are very good when you consider the dollars. If you are Minnesota you get all the players and you get roughly 10 mil to play with as well.

except 13 million on Santana is probably the best way you can spend that 13 million given today's FA market.

They should take that $$ and turn around and trade for Haren...Net D Young, Haren and 1/2 of the players from the Santana trade for Santana and Garza

I guess, but I think any Haren package would take at least 2/3rds to 3/4th of the Santana package.

Haren would take Hughes and something else. Haren is two years from free agency, has a great price tag and is one of the top 10 pitchers in the majors.

Not even close

Not even close based on what shady?For 2007 season for standard five pitching categories, Haren was tied for 7th best contribution by a pitcher (with Bedard and Harang), earning $22 in mixed league fifteen team format.

Hi to several of you guys that I recognize from "our" boards - PVH

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

I have a feeling if both the Sox and Yankees deals stay as they are currently constructed, that he'll stay a Twin. Quite frankly Hughes, Cabrera, and a third tier prospect isn't enough for the best pitcher in baseball when you can get two 1st round picks the following year.

The deals are very good when you consider the dollars. If you are Minnesota you get all the players and you get roughly 10 mil to play with as well.

except 13 million on Santana is probably the best way you can spend that 13 million given today's FA market.

They should take that $$ and turn around and trade for Haren...Net D Young, Haren and 1/2 of the players from the Santana trade for Santana and Garza

I guess, but I think any Haren package would take at least 2/3rds to 3/4th of the Santana package.

Haren would take Hughes and something else. Haren is two years from free agency, has a great price tag and is one of the top 10 pitchers in the majors.

Not even close

Not even close based on what shady?For 2007 season for standard five pitching categories, Haren was tied for 7th best contribution by a pitcher (with Bedard and Harang), earning $22 in mixed league fifteen team format.

Hi to several of you guys that I recognize from "our" boards - PVH

Our boards?

 

[HellToupee]

I have a feeling if both the Sox and Yankees deals stay as they are currently constructed, that he'll stay a Twin. Quite frankly Hughes, Cabrera, and a third tier prospect isn't enough for the best pitcher in baseball when you can get two 1st round picks the following year.

The deals are very good when you consider the dollars. If you are Minnesota you get all the players and you get roughly 10 mil to play with as well.

except 13 million on Santana is probably the best way you can spend that 13 million given today's FA market.

They should take that $$ and turn around and trade for Haren...Net D Young, Haren and 1/2 of the players from the Santana trade for Santana and Garza

I guess, but I think any Haren package would take at least 2/3rds to 3/4th of the Santana package.

Haren would take Hughes and something else. Haren is two years from free agency, has a great price tag and is one of the top 10 pitchers in the majors.

Not even close

Hi to several of you guys that I recognize from "our" boards - PVH

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

So we are 2 and a half hours until the Hankline, any buzz on this?

I hope they do walk on this one, play hardline, the more you think about, the Yanks are the only place they can trade him to, because you know he wants them in on the bidding in an open market situation. The Sox are not going to drop 150 million him. I think the scenario I outlined earlier may actually come down. Force the twins to take your junk. A concern they have I'm sure is the politcal ramification throughout baseball in them bullying them into taking a lesser package and flexing their financial might by locking him up. We'll see if Hank doesn't mind being the bull in the china shop on that point.

 

[HellToupee]

So we are 2 and a half hours until the Hankline, any buzz on this?I hope they do walk on this one, play hardline, the more you think about, the Yanks are the only place they can trade him to, because you know he wants them in on the bidding in an open market situation. The Sox are not going to drop 150 million him. I think the scenario I outlined earlier may actually come down. Force the twins to take your junk. A concern they have I'm sure is the politcal ramification throughout baseball in them bullying them into taking a lesser package and flexing their financial might by locking him up. We'll see if Hank doesn't mind being the bull in the china shop on that point.

I really think Hank knows he can't let the Red Sox get Santana & will get the deal done for the YankeesIf the Red Sox get Santana they come out ahead , if Santana stays in Minny the Sox come out ahead

 

[shadyridr]

Rumor is the Yanks are having second thoughts since Andy came back and may back out.

 

[the moops]

So we are 2 and a half hours until the Hankline, any buzz on this?I hope they do walk on this one, play hardline, the more you think about, the Yanks are the only place they can trade him to, because you know he wants them in on the bidding in an open market situation. The Sox are not going to drop 150 million him. I think the scenario I outlined earlier may actually come down. Force the twins to take your junk. A concern they have I'm sure is the politcal ramification throughout baseball in them bullying them into taking a lesser package and flexing their financial might by locking him up. We'll see if Hank doesn't mind being the bull in the china shop on that point.

Santana will not be traded for junk. Why do you insist on repeating this nonsense of yours?

 

[shadyridr]

So we are 2 and a half hours until the Hankline, any buzz on this?I hope they do walk on this one, play hardline, the more you think about, the Yanks are the only place they can trade him to, because you know he wants them in on the bidding in an open market situation. The Sox are not going to drop 150 million him. I think the scenario I outlined earlier may actually come down. Force the twins to take your junk. A concern they have I'm sure is the politcal ramification throughout baseball in them bullying them into taking a lesser package and flexing their financial might by locking him up. We'll see if Hank doesn't mind being the bull in the china shop on that point.

Santana will not be traded for junk. Why do you insist on repeating this nonsense of yours?

Worst case scenario, Twins keep him and they try to win the WS (which is certainly possible)

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

So we are 2 and a half hours until the Hankline, any buzz on this?I hope they do walk on this one, play hardline, the more you think about, the Yanks are the only place they can trade him to, because you know he wants them in on the bidding in an open market situation. The Sox are not going to drop 150 million him. I think the scenario I outlined earlier may actually come down. Force the twins to take your junk. A concern they have I'm sure is the politcal ramification throughout baseball in them bullying them into taking a lesser package and flexing their financial might by locking him up. We'll see if Hank doesn't mind being the bull in the china shop on that point.

Santana will not be traded for junk. Why do you insist on repeating this nonsense of yours?

Do you REALLY think the Sox want to get into this financial commitment?Do you REALLY think the Twins want this circus to dwarf their team all year? Besides that, what other teams have what Johan will want to waive his no trade as well as prosects to be in this?My point is, the Yanks are still in the drivers seat from where I stand, because I don't think the Sox are willing to tie up that much money financially. They are either going to have to make a big commitment to Manny or another stick after the season as well. I don't think they can live on that payroll tier the Yankees are on. Now, if a dark horse squad like the Dodgers get back in it(pitching isn't their problem) or the Angels do(a definite consideration) the complexion will change. But from where I see this lining up, I don't see it happening.

 

[shadyridr]

So we are 2 and a half hours until the Hankline, any buzz on this?I hope they do walk on this one, play hardline, the more you think about, the Yanks are the only place they can trade him to, because you know he wants them in on the bidding in an open market situation. The Sox are not going to drop 150 million him. I think the scenario I outlined earlier may actually come down. Force the twins to take your junk. A concern they have I'm sure is the politcal ramification throughout baseball in them bullying them into taking a lesser package and flexing their financial might by locking him up. We'll see if Hank doesn't mind being the bull in the china shop on that point.

Santana will not be traded for junk. Why do you insist on repeating this nonsense of yours?

Do you REALLY think the Sox want to get into this financial commitment?Do you REALLY think the Twins want this circus to dwarf their team all year? Besides that, what other teams have what Johan will want to waive his no trade as well as prosects to be in this?My point is, the Yanks are still in the drivers seat from where I stand, because I don't think the Sox are willing to tie up that much money financially. They are either going to have to make a big commitment to Manny or another stick after the season as well. I don't think they can live on that payroll tier the Yankees are on. Now, if a dark horse squad like the Dodgers get back in it(pitching isn't their problem) or the Angels do(a definite consideration) the complexion will change. But from where I see this lining up, I don't see it happening.

Why would the Twins take junk when at worst they can get 2 1st rd picks?

 

[Clifton]

15 minutes until the deadline. You think the Twinks are pretty wound up right now?

 

[the moops]

So we are 2 and a half hours until the Hankline, any buzz on this?I hope they do walk on this one, play hardline, the more you think about, the Yanks are the only place they can trade him to, because you know he wants them in on the bidding in an open market situation. The Sox are not going to drop 150 million him. I think the scenario I outlined earlier may actually come down. Force the twins to take your junk. A concern they have I'm sure is the politcal ramification throughout baseball in them bullying them into taking a lesser package and flexing their financial might by locking him up. We'll see if Hank doesn't mind being the bull in the china shop on that point.

Santana will not be traded for junk. Why do you insist on repeating this nonsense of yours?

Do you REALLY think the Sox want to get into this financial commitment?Do you REALLY think the Twins want this circus to dwarf their team all year? Besides that, what other teams have what Johan will want to waive his no trade as well as prosects to be in this?My point is, the Yanks are still in the drivers seat from where I stand, because I don't think the Sox are willing to tie up that much money financially. They are either going to have to make a big commitment to Manny or another stick after the season as well. I don't think they can live on that payroll tier the Yankees are on. Now, if a dark horse squad like the Dodgers get back in it(pitching isn't their problem) or the Angels do(a definite consideration) the complexion will change. But from where I see this lining up, I don't see it happening.

I think the Sox have little issue with paying the best pitcher in baseball what he is worth.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

So we are 2 and a half hours until the Hankline, any buzz on this?I hope they do walk on this one, play hardline, the more you think about, the Yanks are the only place they can trade him to, because you know he wants them in on the bidding in an open market situation. The Sox are not going to drop 150 million him. I think the scenario I outlined earlier may actually come down. Force the twins to take your junk. A concern they have I'm sure is the politcal ramification throughout baseball in them bullying them into taking a lesser package and flexing their financial might by locking him up. We'll see if Hank doesn't mind being the bull in the china shop on that point.

Santana will not be traded for junk. Why do you insist on repeating this nonsense of yours?

Do you REALLY think the Sox want to get into this financial commitment?Do you REALLY think the Twins want this circus to dwarf their team all year? Besides that, what other teams have what Johan will want to waive his no trade as well as prosects to be in this?My point is, the Yanks are still in the drivers seat from where I stand, because I don't think the Sox are willing to tie up that much money financially. They are either going to have to make a big commitment to Manny or another stick after the season as well. I don't think they can live on that payroll tier the Yankees are on. Now, if a dark horse squad like the Dodgers get back in it(pitching isn't their problem) or the Angels do(a definite consideration) the complexion will change. But from where I see this lining up, I don't see it happening.

I think the Sox have little issue with paying the best pitcher in baseball what he is worth.

Realistically, most teams shouldn't. Wiser minds than me have more eliquently stated the obvious, its not the price of quality that kills you, its the price of mediocrity. The distance between the talent and dollars being payed to Zito and Santana is crazy, but at the end of the day, I think teams will blanche at dropping 25 million on a pitcher, even one with Johan's pedigree.Thats the supposition I'm working from, it could be way off, and if it is, the Yanks gambit would be painful.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

So we are 2 and a half hours until the Hankline, any buzz on this?I hope they do walk on this one, play hardline, the more you think about, the Yanks are the only place they can trade him to, because you know he wants them in on the bidding in an open market situation. The Sox are not going to drop 150 million him. I think the scenario I outlined earlier may actually come down. Force the twins to take your junk. A concern they have I'm sure is the politcal ramification throughout baseball in them bullying them into taking a lesser package and flexing their financial might by locking him up. We'll see if Hank doesn't mind being the bull in the china shop on that point.

Santana will not be traded for junk. Why do you insist on repeating this nonsense of yours?

Do you REALLY think the Sox want to get into this financial commitment?Do you REALLY think the Twins want this circus to dwarf their team all year? Besides that, what other teams have what Johan will want to waive his no trade as well as prosects to be in this?My point is, the Yanks are still in the drivers seat from where I stand, because I don't think the Sox are willing to tie up that much money financially. They are either going to have to make a big commitment to Manny or another stick after the season as well. I don't think they can live on that payroll tier the Yankees are on. Now, if a dark horse squad like the Dodgers get back in it(pitching isn't their problem) or the Angels do(a definite consideration) the complexion will change. But from where I see this lining up, I don't see it happening.

Why would the Twins take junk when at worst they can get 2 1st rd picks?

Because you aren't guaranteed that first round picks will mature to being even "B" level prospects the yankees have right now. Who's gonna sign him anyway? The Yanks or Sox, and you are then picking in the 20's and late 20's at that. That and a sandwich really going to make an impact? I'm not saying that Kennedy, Tabata and Horne could redefine you organization, I'd rather put my foot foward with that in all honesty. Homer glasses could be in full effect here, but the market is not exactly what it appears. What this could foster, if anything, is a push to trade a guy 2 years out instead of 1, because in all honesty, even if its Hughes and Cabrera and another body or only one of Ellisbury and Bucholtz, the Twins didn't get full value for this guy because of the mitigating factors in who he can be dealt to.

 

[Clifton]

1 hour and counting. Can we get a webcam on Hankbrenner's suite?

 

[the moops]

So we are 2 and a half hours until the Hankline, any buzz on this?I hope they do walk on this one, play hardline, the more you think about, the Yanks are the only place they can trade him to, because you know he wants them in on the bidding in an open market situation. The Sox are not going to drop 150 million him. I think the scenario I outlined earlier may actually come down. Force the twins to take your junk. A concern they have I'm sure is the politcal ramification throughout baseball in them bullying them into taking a lesser package and flexing their financial might by locking him up. We'll see if Hank doesn't mind being the bull in the china shop on that point.

Santana will not be traded for junk. Why do you insist on repeating this nonsense of yours?

Do you REALLY think the Sox want to get into this financial commitment?Do you REALLY think the Twins want this circus to dwarf their team all year? Besides that, what other teams have what Johan will want to waive his no trade as well as prosects to be in this?My point is, the Yanks are still in the drivers seat from where I stand, because I don't think the Sox are willing to tie up that much money financially. They are either going to have to make a big commitment to Manny or another stick after the season as well. I don't think they can live on that payroll tier the Yankees are on. Now, if a dark horse squad like the Dodgers get back in it(pitching isn't their problem) or the Angels do(a definite consideration) the complexion will change. But from where I see this lining up, I don't see it happening.

Why would the Twins take junk when at worst they can get 2 1st rd picks?

Because you aren't guaranteed that first round picks will mature to being even "B" level prospects the yankees have right now. Who's gonna sign him anyway? The Yanks or Sox, and you are then picking in the 20's and late 20's at that. That and a sandwich really going to make an impact? I'm not saying that Kennedy, Tabata and Horne could redefine you organization, I'd rather put my foot foward with that in all honesty. Homer glasses could be in full effect here, but the market is not exactly what it appears. What this could foster, if anything, is a push to trade a guy 2 years out instead of 1, because in all honesty, even if its Hughes and Cabrera and another body or only one of Ellisbury and Bucholtz, the Twins didn't get full value for this guy because of the mitigating factors in who he can be dealt to.

The Twins, or any other team, will never get a top 15 pick when on of their free agents signs elsewhere. So you are really talking about the difference of getting a high teens pick, up to a high 20s pick. There is not a whole lot of difference there...but you are right, a pick in the 20s and a sandwich pick is unlikely to net you the impact of a Kennedy, Tabata, Horne package.However, your whole premise is flawed, for it is based on your assumption that the Red Sox are only upping their bid in order to force the Yankees hand. When Fransisco Coredero signs for 12 million a year, Tori Hunter for 19, Posada 12, Rivera 15, etc....Santana at 20 million is a steal (even if it does include 2 of your top prospects being sent Minnesota's way).Honestly, I cant believe more teams aren't jumping into this. Especially seeing that the Sox and/or Yankees may get away with only including one of their top prospects.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

So we are 2 and a half hours until the Hankline, any buzz on this?I hope they do walk on this one, play hardline, the more you think about, the Yanks are the only place they can trade him to, because you know he wants them in on the bidding in an open market situation. The Sox are not going to drop 150 million him. I think the scenario I outlined earlier may actually come down. Force the twins to take your junk. A concern they have I'm sure is the politcal ramification throughout baseball in them bullying them into taking a lesser package and flexing their financial might by locking him up. We'll see if Hank doesn't mind being the bull in the china shop on that point.

Santana will not be traded for junk. Why do you insist on repeating this nonsense of yours?

Do you REALLY think the Sox want to get into this financial commitment?Do you REALLY think the Twins want this circus to dwarf their team all year? Besides that, what other teams have what Johan will want to waive his no trade as well as prosects to be in this?My point is, the Yanks are still in the drivers seat from where I stand, because I don't think the Sox are willing to tie up that much money financially. They are either going to have to make a big commitment to Manny or another stick after the season as well. I don't think they can live on that payroll tier the Yankees are on. Now, if a dark horse squad like the Dodgers get back in it(pitching isn't their problem) or the Angels do(a definite consideration) the complexion will change. But from where I see this lining up, I don't see it happening.

Why would the Twins take junk when at worst they can get 2 1st rd picks?

Because you aren't guaranteed that first round picks will mature to being even "B" level prospects the yankees have right now. Who's gonna sign him anyway? The Yanks or Sox, and you are then picking in the 20's and late 20's at that. That and a sandwich really going to make an impact? I'm not saying that Kennedy, Tabata and Horne could redefine you organization, I'd rather put my foot foward with that in all honesty. Homer glasses could be in full effect here, but the market is not exactly what it appears. What this could foster, if anything, is a push to trade a guy 2 years out instead of 1, because in all honesty, even if its Hughes and Cabrera and another body or only one of Ellisbury and Bucholtz, the Twins didn't get full value for this guy because of the mitigating factors in who he can be dealt to.

The Twins, or any other team, will never get a top 15 pick when on of their free agents signs elsewhere. So you are really talking about the difference of getting a high teens pick, up to a high 20s pick. There is not a whole lot of difference there...but you are right, a pick in the 20s and a sandwich pick is unlikely to net you the impact of a Kennedy, Tabata, Horne package.However, your whole premise is flawed, for it is based on your assumption that the Red Sox are only upping their bid in order to force the Yankees hand. When Fransisco Coredero signs for 12 million a year, Tori Hunter for 19, Posada 12, Rivera 15, etc....Santana at 20 million is a steal (even if it does include 2 of your top prospects being sent Minnesota's way).Honestly, I cant believe more teams aren't jumping into this. Especially seeing that the Sox and/or Yankees may get away with only including one of their top prospects.

I'll say your supposition of 20 mil is flawed. If we can recognize that gulf, then I'm sure Johan and his management can as well. I'm sure the bidding opens at 25, and the question is length of commitment. If he has a Johan type year, what is he looking at on next years market? 7 for 180? 8 for 200? Hardly out of the question. He already turned down 20 mil from the Twins. So the number is a bit higher.But we are sharing the same relative viewpoint, the price point is not THAT MUCH higher that more people should not be involved.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

BONG--The clock strikes midnight...Jayson Stark seems to think its dead:

Yankees might pull out of Santana talks for good--------------------------------------------------------------------------------By Jayson StarkESPN.comNASHVILLE -- With the Yankee's self-imposed deadline approaching, the Twins and Yankees were getting nowhere Monday night in their attempt to complete a deal for Johan Santana. So the Yankees were again making noises that they might pull out of the Santana talks for good. According to baseball officials who were aware of the talks, the Twins again asked the Yankees on Monday night for pitcher Ian Kennedy -- a pitcher the Yankees have insisted for several days that they wouldn't trade -- as the third player in their proposed deal. The Yankees apparently turned down that proposal immediately. The Yankees have held firm since Friday that if pitcher Phil Hughes and outfielder Melky Cabera were part of their offer, the third player heading for Minnesota would have to be a second-tier prospect. So the highly regarded Kennedy headed a list of "untouchables" that included Joba Chamberlain, pitcher Alan Horne and outfielders Austin Jackson and Jose Tabata. But the Twins also haven't budged since Friday. They wanted Kennedy then, and they still do. So unless one side or the other gives, it now appears a trade that once appeared inevitable could blow up for good. The two teams still hadn't even met in person as of late Monday night, even though both clubs' delegations had arrived in full at the winter meetings. It's believed they simply exchanged proposals by phone, in what could be another indication that this trade was now on life support. Meanwhile, officials from other clubs said some Yankees baseball personnel at the meetings have continued to agonize over the inclusion of Hughes in their offer, out of fear Hughes could come back to haunt them for years. So clearly, the decision to include Hughes in the first place was far from unanimous. And if the Yankees had any inclination whatsoever to waver on their stand a few days ago, the news Monday that Andy Pettitte had decided to return undoubtedly helped ease those concerns. With Pettitte back, the Yankees can mount a respectable rotation, with or without Santana -- around Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy and Mike Mussina. They also are expected to renew their efforts to trade for Oakland's Dan Haren. The Twins, on the other hand, may be having second thoughts about the repercussions of trading Santana in the first place, especially after the departure of his fellow face of the franchise, Torii Hunter. "This is a monumental franchise decision," said an official of one AL team. "And I'm just not sure anymore if they're really ready to do this." The Twins also continued to talk with the Red Sox. But despite Boston's decision to include center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury, there was no indication those two teams were getting any closer to a deal, either.

 

[the moops]

Jayson Stark seems to think its dead:

With Pettitte back, the Yankees can mount a respectable rotation, with or without Santana -- around Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy and Mike Mussina.

That rotation sucks. I can't believe any Yankee fan would be happy going into the season with that.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

Jayson Stark seems to think its dead:

With Pettitte back, the Yankees can mount a respectable rotation, with or without Santana -- around Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy and Mike Mussina.

That rotation sucks. I can't believe any Yankee fan would be happy going into the season with that.

It will likely be erratic. Moose is another year older, Pettite dodged the injury bullet last year for the most part, but he's got dog meat for an elbow, Wang is definately a solid contributor, he'd be the best #3 starter in baseball if two guys can step up, and the kids are definite question marks. But realistically, you're going to endure some growing pains with them at some point anyway, and the risk is well worth the reward long term if they become viable big leaguers. I would much prefer to face the future with them than without them for a year of glory. Haren is a very capable pitcher, but I wouldn't call him money in the bank, especially in the AL East, Bedard isn't going anywhere, and if the price for Johan is as advertisted, Phil and IPK, then that is too much. Personally, I'm banking on Kei Igawa to bounce back big time

 

[the moops]

Jayson Stark seems to think its dead:

With Pettitte back, the Yankees can mount a respectable rotation, with or without Santana -- around Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy and Mike Mussina.

That rotation sucks. I can't believe any Yankee fan would be happy going into the season with that.

It will likely be erratic. Moose is another year older, Pettite dodged the injury bullet last year for the most part, but he's got dog meat for an elbow, Wang is definately a solid contributor, he'd be the best #3 starter in baseball if two guys can step up, and the kids are definite question marks. But realistically, you're going to endure some growing pains with them at some point anyway, and the risk is well worth the reward long term if they become viable big leaguers. I would much prefer to face the future with them than without them for a year of glory. Haren is a very capable pitcher, but I wouldn't call him money in the bank, especially in the AL East, Bedard isn't going anywhere, and if the price for Johan is as advertisted, Phil and IPK, then that is too much.

Personally, I'm banking on Kei Igawa to bounce back big time

I like the optimism at least.See, what I cant foresee is the Yankees not having an ace at the top of their staff. As good as Wang has been (and I am still amazed at how well he has done with his stuff) he is not a top of the rotation guy. A fantastic #3 as you said, perhaps even one of the best #2's. But, who knows. Maybe one of Kennedy/Hughes/Joba steps up huge, maybe Mussina finds his 2006 stuff again. I dont know though.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

Jayson Stark seems to think its dead:

With Pettitte back, the Yankees can mount a respectable rotation, with or without Santana -- around Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy and Mike Mussina.

That rotation sucks. I can't believe any Yankee fan would be happy going into the season with that.

It will likely be erratic. Moose is another year older, Pettite dodged the injury bullet last year for the most part, but he's got dog meat for an elbow, Wang is definately a solid contributor, he'd be the best #3 starter in baseball if two guys can step up, and the kids are definite question marks. But realistically, you're going to endure some growing pains with them at some point anyway, and the risk is well worth the reward long term if they become viable big leaguers. I would much prefer to face the future with them than without them for a year of glory. Haren is a very capable pitcher, but I wouldn't call him money in the bank, especially in the AL East, Bedard isn't going anywhere, and if the price for Johan is as advertisted, Phil and IPK, then that is too much.

Personally, I'm banking on Kei Igawa to bounce back big time

I like the optimism at least.See, what I cant foresee is the Yankees not having an ace at the top of their staff. As good as Wang has been (and I am still amazed at how well he has done with his stuff) he is not a top of the rotation guy. A fantastic #3 as you said, perhaps even one of the best #2's. But, who knows. Maybe one of Kennedy/Hughes/Joba steps up huge, maybe Mussina finds his 2006 stuff again. I dont know though.

The Train has sailed on Moose, UNLESS he's able to build on what he started doing down the stretch. He's stubbornly pitched as if he had stuff still and refused to acknowledge the degredation in skill. However, as Tommy Glavine has shown, occasionally, you can teach an old dog new tricks. Against the bottom half of the league, with the Yankees offense, he can still be a servicable 4th starter, but you have to keep him FAR away from the Octane offenses. The trouble with the kids is, they'll almost certainly limited innings wise. If any one of them threw over 200 innnings, you've got a story(IPK is most likely). In fact, I think its more likely they throw 150 innings than 200.

But as far as concerns about an "ace", they're valid, but the Yanks have had an "ace" since Clemens in 2001, and even that was a somewhat dubious distinction(though he did come up big in game 7 in AZ). The idea is hopefully find one ace out of the three kids.

If Johan stays on the Twins, he's obviously looking like he'll hit the market, so in lieu of a one year player rental, I'd rather see what the Yanks have here. Hell, I'd do cartwheels if we ended up with a tandem on the level of Cain and Lincecum going into the new stadium out of the three pitchers. Its a very slim chance all three will really be great pitchers, but its not unreasonable to dream about an Ace, a number 2 and a number 3 emerging out of this lot.

 

[Finless]

Hank is a complete moron. What did he stand to gain by putting a deadline on this? If I am the owner/GM of the Twins that would just make me not want to do business with the Yanks. So basically they say they withdraw. This puts the Twins in a bit of a pinch and Boston has already put a solid enough offer on the table. One that is at least better than getting 2 draft picks. Can someone explain to me how The Yankees benefit from this whatsoever? By pulling out they drop the price down. I'm not saying the Sox will get Santana but this maneuver seems a bit childlike.

Memo to Hank: The Yankees need Santana, Santana doesn't need The Yankees.

 

[cobalt_27]

Jayson Stark seems to think its dead:

With Pettitte back, the Yankees can mount a respectable rotation, with or without Santana -- around Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy and Mike Mussina.

That rotation sucks. I can't believe any Yankee fan would be happy going into the season with that.

Agreed. It's a lot of "I hopes" in there.I hope Pettite can sustain some form from yesteryear.I hope Mussina can sustain some form from two yesteryears ago.I hope that Chien-Ming Wang keeps pulling out his best Vince Young impersonation (mediocre with results )I hope that Hughes stays healthy and builds off of a decent rookie campaign.I hope Kennedy does the same.I hope Chamberlain makes a good transition back to SP and can hang for 6+ innings against major league hitters.I hope.But, I don't expect much from that rotation. Yanks really need Santana to be competitive with Boston, and Hank's being a real tool here with this absurd deadline. What are they going to do? Pay the same asking price for Haren now? C'mon.

 

[the moops]

Man, it sure is nice to be a Sox fan, who lives in Minneapolis. It is as intriguing now, as a baseball fan, as it is in September.

What do baseball fans in Arlington, or Kansas City, or Pittsburgh do all winter?

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

Hank is a complete moron. What did he stand to gain by putting a deadline on this? If I am the owner/GM of the Twins that would just make me not want to do business with the Yanks. So basically they say they withdraw. This puts the Twins in a bit of a pinch and Boston has already put a solid enough offer on the table. One that is at least better than getting 2 draft picks. Can someone explain to me how The Yankees benefit from this whatsoever? By pulling out they drop the price down. I'm not saying the Sox will get Santana but this maneuver seems a bit childlike. Memo to Hank: The Yankees need Santana, Santana doesn't need The Yankees.

The deadline, concievibly, should have made the twins respect the Yankees offer rather than a continual bidding and shopping. If the Yanks are truly out(which they never truly are), then the Sox can back down on their offer. It may not work for this deal, but if the Yanks are able to actually make their deadlines mean something, it could mean something in the NEXT deal. The Twins would have to be concerned if the Yanks pulled what they've already offered. I understanding wanting the stars, but sometimes you've gotta take the moon.And regarding your memo, Santana absolutely needs the yanks involved, either now or in free agency, to get his biggest ticket contract. Now you can argue whats the difference between 80, 100, 120, 150 or 200 million dollars, its more money than he'll ever spend, but if the status, ego and, yeah, the dollars matter, than Santana ABSOLUTELY needs the yankees. The Yankees contended the past few years without Johan, they'll do so again this year. He doesn't even make them a favorite to win the division if hes on their team, so if he's not a difference maker on that level, then you can live without him, especially when he's replacing parts you have.

 

[the moops]

I think at this point, both the Yankees and the Sox know exactly what it is going to cost to sign Santana. He doesnt need either team at this point, for he will just not waive his no trade. It is all part of the trade process. Hence the reason the prospect packages are not as fantastic as one would imagine fr the best pitcher in baseball.

 

[Alias]

IMO looks like the yanks will get him:

The Yankees’ pursuit of Johan Santana showed a flicker of life early Tuesday morning when the Minnesota Twins backed off their demand that the right-hander Ian Kennedy be added to the Yankees’ trade offer.But with the Yankees’ midnight deadline for a deal come and gone, the teams had still not reached an agreement on the third player to be added to the package of Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera. If the sides cannot agree by Tuesday morning, the Yankees say they will back out of trade talks.