The Johan Santana rumor mill (2 Viewers)

[shadyridr]

Id rather include Horne than Jackson. I cant say I know much about Horne but Jackson has alot of upside.

 

[shadyridr]

The Twins know they would get Hughes and center fielder Melky Cabrera for Santana, and the Yankees believe that is enough of a concession to acquire a pitcher who will also demand a contract exceeding $100 million. They have told the Twins that at least five other prospects are untouchable — Dellin Betances, Alan Horne, Austin Jackson, Ian Kennedy and José Tabata.

Im assuming this means if Hughes is in the deal that these 5 guys are untouchable as the 3rd prospect. We'll see if they stick to their guns. Id rank these 5 prospects as Kennedy, Tabata, Jackson, Betances, Horne

 

[the moops]

The Twins know they would get Hughes and center fielder Melky Cabrera for Santana, and the Yankees believe that is enough of a concession to acquire a pitcher who will also demand a contract exceeding $100 million. They have told the Twins that at least five other prospects are untouchable — Dellin Betances, Alan Horne, Austin Jackson, Ian Kennedy and José Tabata.

Im assuming this means if Hughes is in the deal that these 5 guys are untouchable as the 3rd prospect. We'll see if they stick to their guns. Id rank these 5 prospects as Kennedy, Tabata, Jackson, Betances, Horne

Hughes and Kennedy is not getting it done. Stop, please. Just as a Buchholz/Crisp deal is not getting it done. It is going to take a 3rd piece that is quite valuable. Kennedy or Lowrie+Bowden type thing.

 

[the moops]

Peavy is really good but I gave you my reasons for sticking with Santana, but Verlander has had two good years but none were as good as Santana's Off year this year.

You might want to consider that Verlander is 24, has 35 career wins, finished 5th and 7th in the Cy Young in his first two full seasons, throws 100 with a nasty 12-6 curve, and then look at what Santana did before he was 25. I'll hang up and listen.

DD, you are a knowledgeable guy, you should know better.Santana was babied for his 23 and 24 year old years. He only pitched 108, and 158 innings. But he dominated like Verlander has yet to do. A 149 and a 148 ERA+. More than a strikeout an inning. A 4 to 1 K/BB ratio. By every statistical category, besides IP, 24 year old Santana >>>>>>>>>24 year old Justin Verlander.Verlander is a fantastic pitcher. But your Detroit bias is showing a little too much here.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

If I'm the Yanks, I call the Twinks bluff. I don't think Johan wants to go to Boston, he wants to go to NY, and the Mets don't have the pitching. If someone from the field emerges, the only one who could sign him I feel is the Halos. I hate to get into the competition of the rivalary, but keeping him OUT of Boston would be huge. I see no reason to include Hughes, and I'd love to see them sack up and pull Kennedy out of the deal and make them pick through the Melancons, Hornes and Sanchez's of the world. Johan is the hidden X factor here. If he's not willing to sign with an average team, then he goes to market and the Yanks bag him then, or he says he'll only go to NY and the Yanks garbage is better than the Mets gold and the Twins have to deal him.

Are you joking?You think the Yankees can get Santana without including either Hughes or Kennedy? And you think so, because you think Johan just really wants to pitch in NY and not Boston? Good god man.Melancon, Horne and Sanchez! What a joke.

My contention and reaction is more to the Minny posturing. If the stars line up that another team makes a vastly better deal, get Santana to waive his no trade AND sign him, at this point, let it happen. Because I feel like its not going to come down that way. I hate to see the Yankees get played, and I hate even more to see them over pay. I think Boston has zero intention of signing him to this sort of commitment, and I can't think of many teams that would. If Minny has the world by the balls, lets see it is all I'm saying. I think they are not as strong in this situation as their showing, given the many variables in play.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Peavy is really good but I gave you my reasons for sticking with Santana, but Verlander has had two good years but none were as good as Santana's Off year this year.

You might want to consider that Verlander is 24, has 35 career wins, finished 5th and 7th in the Cy Young in his first two full seasons, throws 100 with a nasty 12-6 curve, and then look at what Santana did before he was 25. I'll hang up and listen.

By every statistical category, besides IP, 24 year old Santana >>>>>>>>>24 year old Justin Verlander.Verlander is a fantastic pitcher. But your Detroit bias is showing a little too much here.

You're right, Santana is better. But I contend that Verlander is still learning to pitch and has more room for error than almost any other pitcher in the game given his control, maturity, velocity, and age. I'd take Santana this year and next over Verlander but beyond that I think I would take Verlander. I also think you have a few too many > there.

 

[shadyridr]

The Twins know they would get Hughes and center fielder Melky Cabrera for Santana, and the Yankees believe that is enough of a concession to acquire a pitcher who will also demand a contract exceeding $100 million. They have told the Twins that at least five other prospects are untouchable — Dellin Betances, Alan Horne, Austin Jackson, Ian Kennedy and José Tabata.

Im assuming this means if Hughes is in the deal that these 5 guys are untouchable as the 3rd prospect. We'll see if they stick to their guns. Id rank these 5 prospects as Kennedy, Tabata, Jackson, Betances, Horne

Hughes and Kennedy is not getting it done. Stop, please. Just as a Buchholz/Crisp deal is not getting it done. It is going to take a 3rd piece that is quite valuable. Kennedy or Lowrie+Bowden type thing.

Yanks have refused to include Kennedy also. So we'll see if Hughes, Cabrera, and a lesser prospect get it done.

 

[Gopher State]

The Twins know they would get Hughes and center fielder Melky Cabrera for Santana, and the Yankees believe that is enough of a concession to acquire a pitcher who will also demand a contract exceeding $100 million. They have told the Twins that at least five other prospects are untouchable — Dellin Betances, Alan Horne, Austin Jackson, Ian Kennedy and José Tabata.

Im assuming this means if Hughes is in the deal that these 5 guys are untouchable as the 3rd prospect. We'll see if they stick to their guns. Id rank these 5 prospects as Kennedy, Tabata, Jackson, Betances, Horne

Hughes and Kennedy is not getting it done. Stop, please. Just as a Buchholz/Crisp deal is not getting it done. It is going to take a 3rd piece that is quite valuable. Kennedy or Lowrie+Bowden type thing.

Good It is going to take a 3 player deal, with players that have value.

 

[Gopher State]

Twins Insider: Hold on — Santana won't be moved easily, if at all

The team is perfectly willing to hang on to its ace lefthander if suitors don't play the perfect cards.

By La Velle E. Neal III, Star Tribune

The Twins envision moving into a new ballpark in 2010 with a club led by Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau that is ready to make a playoff run -- and this offseason's moves are meant to build toward that.

Yet the Twins also see themselves being competitive in 2008. Newly acquired Delmon Young and Brendan Harris help them feel that way. More trades and free agency can solve third base and center field problems.

And opponents better watch out if lefthander Johan Santana remains with the club.

According to a person close to the Twins' negotiations, the club will take a hard line in trade talks involving Santana during this week's winter meetings in Nashville. And that means -- no matter how certain it has seemed that Santana will be traded -- that the club would be comfortable entering the 2008 season with their two-time Cy Young Award winner in the rotation if no offer is good enough.

The source said the Twins have made their demands clear to the Red Sox, Yankees and other clubs interested in Santana and they will not compromise. They are willing to risk trying to deal Santana in July, when the return could be less, or even risk watching him walk away as a free agent after the season, with only draft picks as compensation.

That means either outfielder Jacoby Ellsbury or righthander Clay Buchholz must be added to Boston's offer, which is believed to include lefthander Jon Lester and shortstop prospect Jed Lowrie. The Twins feel the fleet Ellsbury could develop into a force at the top of their order. The word on Saturday was that the Red Sox and Twins were set for a key evening meeting.

The Twins' stance means the Yankees must provide a package that includes center fielder Melky Cabrera and righthanded phenom Phillip Hughes and perhaps even righthanded prospect Ian Kennedy. Hughes and Kennedy, if they wind up in Minnesota, would go right into the Twins' rotation. The Twins think Cabrera is a solid player, not with Ellsbury's ceiling, but solid. And more players (Jose Tabata?) could be involved.

The stakes are high for both teams. The Red Sox can establish themselves as the beast of the AL East for several years with Santana, Josh Beckett and Daisuke Matsuzaka in the rotation. The Yankees can close the gap with a true No. 1 pitcher in their rotation to pair with Chien-Ming Wang.

Both clubs have the resources to sign Santana, who would have to waive his no-trade clause, to an extension. They may scream about the cost certainty of adding $150 million over six years. The Twins will scream about the performance certainty of getting someone who's 93-44 in his career.

The Mets need a top starter more than the Red Sox and Yankees. While GM Omar Minaya has gone on record saying that electrifying shortstop Jose Reyes won't be part of any proposal, some believe he will have to rethink his stance. The Twins love what their lineup could look like with Reyes leading off and a grouping of Mauer, Young, Morneau, Michael Cuddyer and Jason Kubel following. And think of the lucky guy who gets to hit in front of Mauer and use the hole between first and second when Reyes is on base.

The Angeles, Dodgers and Mariners also have expressed interest in Santana, but word is that the Angels and Dodgers have been preoccupied with Marlins masher Miguel Cabrera, so they haven't been very involved in Santana talks.

Twins GM Bill Smith left for Nashville on Saturday because he had to attend a minor leagues Board of Trustees meeting, but he also can set up shop. Assistant GM Rob Antony went with him, presumably to assist in trade discussions.

A deal could be just a phone call away, but if the Twins don't like what they hear they won't mind welcoming Santana to spring training. And watching Santana pitch in a contract year with an improved lineup behind him would be interesting.

If Santana is traded, the Twins are content with taking a step back -- possibly trading closer Joe Nathan, too -- and embracing Project 2010.

La Velle E. Neal III • lneal@startribune.com

I think the Twins have drawn a line in the sand with Santana, if no one meets the price he stays in Minny.

 

[Dreamer]

Twins Insider: Hold on — Santana won't be moved easily, if at all The team is perfectly willing to hang on to its ace lefthander if suitors don't play the perfect cards.By La Velle E. Neal III, Star Tribune The Twins envision moving into a new ballpark in 2010 with a club led by Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau that is ready to make a playoff run -- and this offseason's moves are meant to build toward that.Yet the Twins also see themselves being competitive in 2008. Newly acquired Delmon Young and Brendan Harris help them feel that way. More trades and free agency can solve third base and center field problems. And opponents better watch out if lefthander Johan Santana remains with the club.According to a person close to the Twins' negotiations, the club will take a hard line in trade talks involving Santana during this week's winter meetings in Nashville. And that means -- no matter how certain it has seemed that Santana will be traded -- that the club would be comfortable entering the 2008 season with their two-time Cy Young Award winner in the rotation if no offer is good enough.The source said the Twins have made their demands clear to the Red Sox, Yankees and other clubs interested in Santana and they will not compromise. They are willing to risk trying to deal Santana in July, when the return could be less, or even risk watching him walk away as a free agent after the season, with only draft picks as compensation.That means either outfielder Jacoby Ellsbury or righthander Clay Buchholz must be added to Boston's offer, which is believed to include lefthander Jon Lester and shortstop prospect Jed Lowrie. The Twins feel the fleet Ellsbury could develop into a force at the top of their order. The word on Saturday was that the Red Sox and Twins were set for a key evening meeting.The Twins' stance means the Yankees must provide a package that includes center fielder Melky Cabrera and righthanded phenom Phillip Hughes and perhaps even righthanded prospect Ian Kennedy. Hughes and Kennedy, if they wind up in Minnesota, would go right into the Twins' rotation. The Twins think Cabrera is a solid player, not with Ellsbury's ceiling, but solid. And more players (Jose Tabata?) could be involved.The stakes are high for both teams. The Red Sox can establish themselves as the beast of the AL East for several years with Santana, Josh Beckett and Daisuke Matsuzaka in the rotation. The Yankees can close the gap with a true No. 1 pitcher in their rotation to pair with Chien-Ming Wang.Both clubs have the resources to sign Santana, who would have to waive his no-trade clause, to an extension. They may scream about the cost certainty of adding $150 million over six years. The Twins will scream about the performance certainty of getting someone who's 93-44 in his career.The Mets need a top starter more than the Red Sox and Yankees. While GM Omar Minaya has gone on record saying that electrifying shortstop Jose Reyes won't be part of any proposal, some believe he will have to rethink his stance. The Twins love what their lineup could look like with Reyes leading off and a grouping of Mauer, Young, Morneau, Michael Cuddyer and Jason Kubel following. And think of the lucky guy who gets to hit in front of Mauer and use the hole between first and second when Reyes is on base.The Angeles, Dodgers and Mariners also have expressed interest in Santana, but word is that the Angels and Dodgers have been preoccupied with Marlins masher Miguel Cabrera, so they haven't been very involved in Santana talks.Twins GM Bill Smith left for Nashville on Saturday because he had to attend a minor leagues Board of Trustees meeting, but he also can set up shop. Assistant GM Rob Antony went with him, presumably to assist in trade discussions.A deal could be just a phone call away, but if the Twins don't like what they hear they won't mind welcoming Santana to spring training. And watching Santana pitch in a contract year with an improved lineup behind him would be interesting.If Santana is traded, the Twins are content with taking a step back -- possibly trading closer Joe Nathan, too -- and embracing Project 2010.La Velle E. Neal III • lneal@startribune.com I think the Twins have drawn a line in the sand with Santana, if no one meets the price he stays in Minny.

Posturing. They'll take the Yankees Hughes/Cabrera/lesser prospect deal eventually.

 

[Liquid Tension]

If they want Ellsbury, Buchholz/Lester and 4 other prospects, that price is too steep. I wouldn't want to give all those guys up and sign Santana to a 6 year contract. Hell no. Say what you want about dominance, blah, blah, blah. Throw the stats out there. I would not want to see the socks mortgage their future for a 6 year albatross contract on a pitcher. I don't care who it is. #### Johan. Hope fully the Yanks can pick him up. Hughes and Melky aren't going to get it done.

I dont think anyone has stated that it would be Ellsbury, Buchholz/Lester + 4 other prospects. I think the major components would be either Ellsbury/Lester, or Crisp/Buchholz/Lowrie. After that, I would think that there would be a pitcher thrown in (probably not a Masterson or Bowden).If I were the Twins would want the Crisp/Buccholz/Lowrie over the Ellsbury/Lester deal. Gives them a CF, potential ace, and a 3B. But everyone seems to have a huge hard-on for Ellsbury, so I would guess they would prefer that one. Getting their CF and a middle rotation guy in Lester.I dont know how anyone who is a Red Sox fan can argue that they hope the Yankees get him. If they give up Hughes/Cabrera/Tabata and get Sanatana they will be a far better team next year and for the foreseeable future.

What if the Twinkies want Hughes/Cano/Cabrera?

They do, but they will not get it. From what I read the Twins #1 prospect is Hughes. If true then the Yanks will give Hughes, Melky and another minor leaguer and get it done.

Do the Twins like Hughes better than Buchholz or is it just that the Sox have not offered Buchholz?

Supposedly they like Hughes better than Buchholz

 

[Liquid Tension]

Peavy is really good but I gave you my reasons for sticking with Santana, but Verlander has had two good years but none were as good as Santana's Off year this year.

You might want to consider that Verlander is 24, has 35 career wins, finished 5th and 7th in the Cy Young in his first two full seasons, throws 100 with a nasty 12-6 curve, and then look at what Santana did before he was 25. I'll hang up and listen.

DD, you are a knowledgeable guy, you should know better.Santana was babied for his 23 and 24 year old years. He only pitched 108, and 158 innings. But he dominated like Verlander has yet to do. A 149 and a 148 ERA+. More than a strikeout an inning. A 4 to 1 K/BB ratio. By every statistical category, besides IP, 24 year old Santana >>>>>>>>>24 year old Justin Verlander.Verlander is a fantastic pitcher. But your Detroit bias is showing a little too much here.

Saved me the response. Just because I gave my opinion on who was better did not mean i was saying verlander is a mediocre pitcher. Clearly he is one of the best young arms in the league.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Sources: Boston brings new mix to table in Santana trade talks

By Buster Olney

ESPN The Magazine

(Archive)

Updated: December 2, 2007, 11:22 AM ET

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The Twins may have reached the point where they have the best offers they are going to get from the Yankees and Red Sox for pitcher Johan Santana.

With the Yankees' offer now upgraded to include top young pitcher Phil Hughes, the Twins spoke again with the Red Sox late Saturday afternoon, sources say, and Boston generated a few new ideas for its proposed offer.

The Red Sox had been reluctant to include outfielder Jacoby Ellsbury or pitcher Clay Buchholz in the deal.

The Twins have also been talking with the Mariners and Dodgers, among other teams, but with Santana in a position to steer the deal making with his no-trade clause, Minnesota may soon have to decide between the offer from the Yankees and Red Sox or consider the possibility of keeping Santana for the outset of the 2008 season -- although executives involved in these talks expect Santana to be traded.

There is only a certain level of patience for prolonged dialogue among the teams involved, and unless some preliminary trade agreement is settled, the Red Sox or Yankees could reduce their offer or pull out altogether within the next 48 hours.

If the Twins make a deal with New York, Yankees officials are confident they will sign Santana. And the club's internal plan, if center fielder Melky Cabrera is included in the trade, is to switch veteran Johnny Damon from left field back to center field.

Boston's offer on the table before Saturday's talks included pitcher Jon Lester, center fielder Coco Crisp and minor league infielder Jed Lowrie. A fourth player -- a minor league pitcher -- is to be determined. The Twins have wanted the Red Sox to add either Ellsbury or Buchholz to the deal, and there are indications that if the Red Sox add Buchholz or Ellsbury, theirs is the offer that Minnesota would prefer.

For now, however, the Yankees are right in the thick of the bidding, having decided in internal discussions on Friday to offer Hughes rather than Ian Kennedy into their offer, along with Cabrera and a third player -- in all likelihood, a minor leaguer. The Yankees have told the Twins that the third player can't be any of their best young players -- Kennedy or Joba Chamberlain or second baseman Robinson Cano, for example, but a second-tier prospect.

Santana, 29, has a full no-trade clause, and could block any deal the Twins try to make. In return for waiving the no-trade clause, it's expected that Santana will want the Yankees or any other team attempting to trade for him to sign the left-hander to a record-setting contract. No pitcher has ever signed a multiyear deal for more $18.6 million per season, but Santana may ask for something in the range of six years and $150 million, in an extension.

The Yankees are operating under revamped leadership, with Steinbrenner sons Hank and Hal assuming a greater role, and to date, the sons have demonstrated a willingness to bid aggressively and splurge when they feel it's necessary to get a deal done.

For example: While the Yankees forced Alex Rodriguez to come to them without Scott Boras, they still gave him a record-setting raise. Many industry executives think the Yankees were in position to force Rodriguez to settle for a deal in the range of $200 million-$225 million, but the Yankees signed Rodriguez to a deal that could be worth anywhere from $275 million to $305 million. And the Yankees gave veteran catcher Jorge Posada a fourth year in their offer, rather than limit their proposal to three years.

Damon, 34, battled injuries in the early part of last season and in his absence, Cabrera played center and so greatly improved the team's defense that when Damon was ready to return to the outfield again, Cabrera remained as the center fielder, with Damon moving to left.

As the Yankees have considered the alternatives in a Santana trade, they've determined to shift Damon back to center field, rather than to pursue one of the many free agent center fielders available -- someone like Aaron Rowand, Mike Cameron or Andruw Jones.

There is more pressure on the Yankees to acquire Santana or another veteran pitcher, because the projected Yankees' rotation, as of today, lacks experience, and because friends of left-hander Andy Pettitte believe there is a real chance that he is going to retire. The Yankees may not learn until late December or January about what Pettitte's plans are for 2008.

Those considerations may nudge the Yankees into adding Hughes to their offer for Santana.

The Yankees and Red Sox are also engaged in ongoing talks with the Oakland Athletics about Dan Haren, an accomplished pitcher who is a much cheaper option than Santana. Haren would cost, in prospects, a package comparable to what Santana is commanding, but he is already under contract for the next three years at $16.25 million (presuming his team exercises an option for 2010).

Buster Olney is a senior writer for ESPN The Magazine.

I bolded some of the key points IMO.

First, it appears that if the Red Sox don't add Bucholz or Ellsbury the Yanks will get their man with Hughes Melky and a minor leaguer.

2nd, as I said previously, the Yanks bid against themselves with ARod and could have gotten him for $50 mil less. I am positive nobody else would have given a 32 year old a 10 year deal.

3rd, It is interesting about the talks with Haren, but I don't see Oakland trading him as the contract is A's friendlyy.

 

[jeter23]

Sox have decided they are willing to deal Ellsbury, but not in a package with Lester. This is according to ESPN.

 

[Darth Cheney]

Sox have decided they are willing to deal Ellsbury, but not in a package with Lester. This is according to ESPN.

Yanks driving up the price.

 

[Alias]

Sox have decided they are willing to deal Ellsbury, but not in a package with Lester. This is according to ESPN.

details...

The Twins have continued to ask for Ellsbury, so the Red Sox have flipped Ellsbury back into their offer, sources say, while removing Lester, and upgraded slightly the rest of their proposed package slightly perhaps to include right-handed pitcher Justin Masterson.

 

[Alias]

Supposedly they like Hughes better than Buchholz

link?from 4 posts up...

The Twins have wanted the Red Sox to add either Ellsbury or Buchholz to the deal, and there are indications that if the Red Sox add Buchholz or Ellsbury, theirs is the offer that Minnesota would prefer.

 

[Kiddnets]

smart move by Yanks

Yankees set deadline for Twins trade

New York will withdraw offer for Santana on Monday

Posted: Sunday December 2, 2007 7:00PM; Updated: Sunday December 2, 2007 7:00PM

Yankees outfielder Melky Cabrera could be on his way to Minnesota.

Jim McIsaac/Getty Images

By Jon Heyman, SI.com

NASHVILLE -- The Yankees have set a Monday deadline for the Twins to respond to their proposed trade of top young pitcher Phil Hughes, center fielder Melky Cabrera and a third prospect for superstar pitcher Johan Santana, SI.com has learned.

 

[Koya]

smart move by YanksYankees set deadline for Twins tradeNew York will withdraw offer for Santana on MondayPosted: Sunday December 2, 2007 7:00PM; Updated: Sunday December 2, 2007 7:00PM Yankees outfielder Melky Cabrera could be on his way to Minnesota.Jim McIsaac/Getty Images By Jon Heyman, SI.comNASHVILLE -- The Yankees have set a Monday deadline for the Twins to respond to their proposed trade of top young pitcher Phil Hughes, center fielder Melky Cabrera and a third prospect for superstar pitcher Johan Santana, SI.com has learned.

Since we know that Yankee ultimatums mean soooo much.

 

[Balco]

smart move by YanksYankees set deadline for Twins tradeNew York will withdraw offer for Santana on MondayPosted: Sunday December 2, 2007 7:00PM; Updated: Sunday December 2, 2007 7:00PM Yankees outfielder Melky Cabrera could be on his way to Minnesota.Jim McIsaac/Getty Images By Jon Heyman, SI.comNASHVILLE -- The Yankees have set a Monday deadline for the Twins to respond to their proposed trade of top young pitcher Phil Hughes, center fielder Melky Cabrera and a third prospect for superstar pitcher Johan Santana, SI.com has learned.

Since we know that Yankee ultimatums mean soooo much.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

smart move by YanksYankees set deadline for Twins tradeNew York will withdraw offer for Santana on MondayPosted: Sunday December 2, 2007 7:00PM; Updated: Sunday December 2, 2007 7:00PM Yankees outfielder Melky Cabrera could be on his way to Minnesota.Jim McIsaac/Getty Images By Jon Heyman, SI.comNASHVILLE -- The Yankees have set a Monday deadline for the Twins to respond to their proposed trade of top young pitcher Phil Hughes, center fielder Melky Cabrera and a third prospect for superstar pitcher Johan Santana, SI.com has learned.

Since we know that Yankee ultimatums mean soooo much.

 

[ack34]

smart move by YanksYankees set deadline for Twins tradeNew York will withdraw offer for Santana on MondayPosted: Sunday December 2, 2007 7:00PM; Updated: Sunday December 2, 2007 7:00PM Yankees outfielder Melky Cabrera could be on his way to Minnesota.Jim McIsaac/Getty Images By Jon Heyman, SI.comNASHVILLE -- The Yankees have set a Monday deadline for the Twins to respond to their proposed trade of top young pitcher Phil Hughes, center fielder Melky Cabrera and a third prospect for superstar pitcher Johan Santana, SI.com has learned.

Since we know that Yankee ultimatums mean soooo much.

shut up and get your heinie to SimLive!

 

[the moops]

Quite honestly, the Twins are getting crap offers from both the Yanks and the Sox.

Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson....Hughes, Cabrera, Tabata (or whoever else they are floating these days).

If either of those packages get accepted, I would hate to be a Twins fan.

 

[Alias]

Santana putting pressure on the Twins, love it...

NASHVILLE, Tenn. - It might be now or never for the Twins if they wish to trade left-hander Johan Santana.According to major-league sources, Santana has informed the Twins that he would not waive his no-trade clause during the season, ending any chance that he could be moved before the July 31 non-waiver deadline.

 

[ack34]

2 first round picks isn't the worst compensation.

 

[shadyridr]

smart move by YanksYankees set deadline for Twins tradeNew York will withdraw offer for Santana on MondayPosted: Sunday December 2, 2007 7:00PM; Updated: Sunday December 2, 2007 7:00PM Yankees outfielder Melky Cabrera could be on his way to Minnesota.Jim McIsaac/Getty Images By Jon Heyman, SI.comNASHVILLE -- The Yankees have set a Monday deadline for the Twins to respond to their proposed trade of top young pitcher Phil Hughes, center fielder Melky Cabrera and a third prospect for superstar pitcher Johan Santana, SI.com has learned.

Since we know that Yankee ultimatums mean soooo much.

Unfortunately

 

[shadyridr]

Quite honestly, the Twins are getting crap offers from both the Yanks and the Sox.Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson....Hughes, Cabrera, Tabata (or whoever else they are floating these days).If either of those packages get accepted, I would hate to be a Twins fan.

I think both those are very solid offers.

 

[Kiddnets]

smart move by YanksYankees set deadline for Twins tradeNew York will withdraw offer for Santana on MondayPosted: Sunday December 2, 2007 7:00PM; Updated: Sunday December 2, 2007 7:00PM Yankees outfielder Melky Cabrera could be on his way to Minnesota.Jim McIsaac/Getty Images By Jon Heyman, SI.comNASHVILLE -- The Yankees have set a Monday deadline for the Twins to respond to their proposed trade of top young pitcher Phil Hughes, center fielder Melky Cabrera and a third prospect for superstar pitcher Johan Santana, SI.com has learned.

Since we know that Yankee ultimatums mean soooo much.

Unfortunately

true - but I am thinking they take that offer off the table to Minny and try to use it to land Haren

 

[Balco]

Wow, Hank Steinbrenner looks like the 2nd coming of James Dolan.

He really needs to just shut his mouth. Cashman must cringe every time he sees a Hank quote.

 

[Alias]

NASHVILLE - Here's what we've learned in the first few hours here at the Winter Meetings: According to major league sources none of Boston's young prospects are untouchable in talks with the Twins for Johan Santana.

But there's a major "but...".

If Jacoby Ellsbury is included in the package, the rest of the package won't include Jon Lester or Clay Buchholz. In other words, the Red Sox are taking a very systematic approach to this.. They're telling the Twins, you can have one of these guys, but the rest of the package won't include our three best prospects. The rest of the package will be something less than the Twins desire.

The Twins wanted to hear the Yankees say OK on Phillip Hughes and apparenly they have heard that. But the Yankees, according to sources, are taking a similar approach to Boston: take Hughes and maybe Melky Cabrera, but don't expect much after that.

What's the end game? If the Red Sox succeed in raising the price for the Yankess to acquire Santana they'd enjoy that. If they land Santana, they'll enjoy that, too. If neither the Red Sox or Yankees land Santana either because they can't agree to players or they can't agree to a deal for the free-agent lefty to be after the 2008 season, that's even better. In that scenario Santana stays with Minnesota for the time being or he's shopped out of the AL East.

SI. com reported tonight that the Yankes have a Monday deadline on a deal for Santana. Brian Cashman doesn't get here until Monday. According to major league sources the Red Sox have given the Twins no deadline on their end, so they're willing to wait it out.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds...y_untoucha.html

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

Wow, Hank Steinbrenner looks like the 2nd coming of James Dolan.He really needs to just shut his mouth. Cashman must cringe every time he sees a Hank quote.

How so? What has Hank done bad so far? I like him thus far, though a little more of zipped lip will suit him, and hopefully thats a skill he can acquire. Hey, he's Cameron staring at his Dad's Ferrarri, and at age 50, he's finally taking it out of a spin, so if he opens it up by being overly "quote-y"(after not having been for literally his entire life) I'll let him. Its also kind of refreshing to hear people outside the Torre/Jeter/Cashman school of talking without saying anything.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Supposedly they like Hughes better than Buchholz

link?from 4 posts up...

The Twins have wanted the Red Sox to add either Ellsbury or Buchholz to the deal, and there are indications that if the Red Sox add Buchholz or Ellsbury, theirs is the offer that Minnesota would prefer.

I will try and find the link tomorrow but I believe I read it in the NY Daily News

 

[shadyridr]

smart move by YanksYankees set deadline for Twins tradeNew York will withdraw offer for Santana on MondayPosted: Sunday December 2, 2007 7:00PM; Updated: Sunday December 2, 2007 7:00PM Yankees outfielder Melky Cabrera could be on his way to Minnesota.Jim McIsaac/Getty Images By Jon Heyman, SI.comNASHVILLE -- The Yankees have set a Monday deadline for the Twins to respond to their proposed trade of top young pitcher Phil Hughes, center fielder Melky Cabrera and a third prospect for superstar pitcher Johan Santana, SI.com has learned.

Since we know that Yankee ultimatums mean soooo much.

Unfortunately

true - but I am thinking they take that offer off the table to Minny and try to use it to land Haren

Offering Hughes for Haren would be horrible.

 

[icon]

With these offers escalating I'm now swapping my position to hoping the Sox hold... possibly go after Haren (if the price is right) or move along.

I'm glad the Sox brass are not willing to sell the farm for Johan. He's extremely good but Boston isn't in a dire need for SPs... not saying we are loaded with guys better than Santana (obviously) but I'd hate to lose all these great young guys.

 

[RC94]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/base...alks/index.html

Yankees set deadline for Twins trade

New York will withdraw offer for Santana on Monday

Posted: Sunday December 2, 2007 7:00PM; Updated: Sunday December 2, 2007 7:00PM

By Jon Heyman, SI.com

NASHVILLE -- The Yankees have set a Monday deadline for the Twins to respond to their proposed trade of top young pitcher Phil Hughes, center fielder Melky Cabrera and a third prospect for superstar pitcher Johan Santana, SI.com has learned.

So assuming the Yankees strictly stick to their deadline, it is very likely there will be a resolution regarding Santana -- widely considered baseball's best pitcher -- by the end of Monday.

The Yankees and Red Sox are seen as the most serious players for Santana, and the Twins need both competing for the star lefthander for them to get their best deal. So it's hard to see the Twins letting one of the teams out of the Santana Sweepstakes, assuming the Twins do trade him.

The Twins could also decide to hold onto Santana, but most baseball people still believe he will be dealt this winter.

The Yankees and Red Sox may be the only two teams that can reasonably afford Santana, who's expected to garner a five or six-year extension for more than $20 million a year.

The Red Sox recently told the Twins they would include either fine young lefthander Jon Lester or top center field prospect Jacoby Ellsbury in a trade for Santana but appear unwilling at this point to combine both players, as Minnesota requested. The Twins would also take pitcher Clay Buchholz as a substitute for Ellsbury or Lester as long as they get two of those three players. The Red Sox offered outfielder Coco Crisp and shortstop prospect Jed Lowrie with Lester, and have also discussed pitcher Justin Masterson.

After receiving word of the Monday deadline late Saturday, the Twins apparently hadn't gotten back to the Yankees by Sunday afternoon. Minnesota originally requested Hughes and Cabrera. However, apparently there's a difference of opinion over the third player in the deal.

Yankees general manager Brian Cashman gave Twins GM Bill Smith a list of prospects they'd be willing to include with Hughes and Cabrera, and Cashman made clear at that time that pitchers Ian Kennedy and Alan Horne and outfielder Austin Jackson would not be included in their Hughes-Cabrera proposal.

Santana, a two-time Cy Young winner who has full no-trade powers, would be expected to approve a trade to either the Yankees or Red Sox, provided they can come to a contract extension. Regardless, either team would make any trade contingent on extending him.

 

[Alias]

From the NYTimes:

The Yankees told the Twins late Friday that they would include Hughes, the 21-year-old ace-in-waiting, but the Twins have not accepted the offer. They are lukewarm about Cabrera and would prefer Boston’s Jacoby Ellsbury as their new center fielder, but the Red Sox will not trade Ellsbury and pitcher Jon Lester unless the Twins expand the deal, possibly to include closer Joe Nathan.

from SoSH:

Heyman was just on Mike'd up from Nashville and ranked Yankee's #1 and Red Sox #2 in the Santana Sweepstakes. Hey claimed he ran into a Red Sox Executive in the hallway who stated: 'we won in October and they (the MFYs) can have November/December.' Which indicated to Heyman that the Red Sox were conceding it...

 

[wilked]

This is exciting stuff. Frankly, I am not sure what to think. I have become very high on Lester lately, and Ellsbury looks like he will be a perennial All-Star. That's a lot to give up for the right to sign Johan to a long-term expensive contract. But then I imagine how dominant the team would be with Beckett/Johan/Dice-K/Schill and it is hard for me not to make the move. The clincher is the 'swing' the Sox would get by keeping him away from the Yankees. With the Yankees starting pitching in shambles, this would be tremendous.

I hope the Sox get him, even if it means sacrificing Jacoby and Jon.

Last point - for all those OCab fans (yes JTC, I am looking at you), letting OCab leave got the Sox Jacoby (draft picks), which has a strong possibility of being flipped for the best pitcher in baseball.

 

[Sammy3469]

I have a feeling if both the Sox and Yankees deals stay as they are currently constructed, that he'll stay a Twin. Quite frankly Hughes, Cabrera, and a third tier prospect isn't enough for the best pitcher in baseball when you can get two 1st round picks the following year.

 

[guru_007]

I have a feeling if both the Sox and Yankees deals stay as they are currently constructed, that he'll stay a Twin. Quite frankly Hughes, Cabrera, and a third tier prospect isn't enough for the best pitcher in baseball when you can get two 1st round picks the following year.

First round draft picks in baseball are a significant crap shoot. Look at any year really. I'd rather have major league ready talent than baseball draft picks for a guy that is under contract for one more year and I don't think I can resign him. I'm not saying the Yankees or Red Sox offers are overwhelming, but they both contain very good pieces.

 

[Dreamer]

With the Yankees starting pitching in shambles, this would be tremendous.

Shambles?Wang PettitteHughesJobaKennedyMussinaPut Santana at the top of that and they're stacked.Red Sox fans have to be the most delusional people on the planet. Please, any of you, explain to me how ANY and EVERY scenario makes Theo a genius and the Yankees fools. It's amazing how you can spin anything into "Theos a genius and the Yankees suck", absolutely amazing.But I do admire your optimism.

 

[shadyridr]

“I don’t want to continue this dog-and-pony show, playing us against the Red Sox,” Steinbrenner said. “I’m not going to participate in that. This is our best offer. Minnesota knows it’s our best offer. Everybody knows it is.“We need to get this done. If we don’t, I certainly won’t be upset about keeping Hughes and Cabrera. I definitely won’t. I don’t think Minnesota wants to be stuck negotiating with just one team.” "How can I go any higher?” Steinbrenner said. “What do they want — Hughes, Kennedy and Cabrera? I can’t do that kind of thing. It’s crazy. It’s suicidal. In the past 20 or 30 years, teams have always asked more from the Yankees than they have of anybody else, and that’s going to stop. I’ve made the best offer Minnesota is going to get, and the fact is, it’s an offer we can go away happy and they can go away happy.”

 

[shadyridr]

BTW is Cashman even the GM anymore?

 

[shadyridr]

Pettitte's back! I wonder if that changes anything

 

[[icon]]

Red Sox fans have to be the most delusional people on the planet. Please, any of you, explain to me how ANY and EVERY scenario makes Theo a genius and the Yankees fools. It's amazing how you can spin anything into "Theos a genius and the Yankees suck", absolutely amazing.

While your over-dramatization is comical, Do we really need to look at the results in the last 4-5 years since Theo has been GM? Theo was hired before the 2003 season2003 - ALCS2004 -World Series Title2005 - ALDS(Theo take hiatus for most of offseason)2006 - Didn't make playoffs2007 - World Series TitleSo since taking the helm before the 2003 season Theo has led the Sox to the playoffs every year that he had the reins for the offseason... including 2 World Series titles. Not too shabby for a delusional bunch of also-rans.

 

[wilked]

With the Yankees starting pitching in shambles, this would be tremendous.

Shambles?Wang PettitteHughesJobaKennedyMussinaPut Santana at the top of that and they're stacked.Red Sox fans have to be the most delusional people on the planet. Please, any of you, explain to me how ANY and EVERY scenario makes Theo a genius and the Yankees fools. It's amazing how you can spin anything into "Theos a genius and the Yankees suck", absolutely amazing.But I do admire your optimism.

Well, looks like Pettitte is coming back, so I will retract the shambles statement. Without Pettitte though they were at WangMussina3 rookies yet to pitch a full seasonCan't say I would be too ecstatic to start a season like that. I don't see how that is delusional...With Pettitte in the mix now they are looking a lot better. Well-timed card by the Yankees, takes the pressure off them somewhat in these negotiations.

 

[ack34]

Red Sox fans have to be the most delusional people on the planet. Please, any of you, explain to me how ANY and EVERY scenario makes Theo a genius and the Yankees fools. It's amazing how you can spin anything into "Theos a genius and the Yankees suck", absolutely amazing.

While your over-dramatization is comical, Do we really need to look at the results in the last 4-5 years since Theo has been GM? Theo was hired before the 2003 season2003 - ALCS2004 -World Series Title2005 - ALDS(Theo take hiatus for most of offseason)2006 - Didn't make playoffs2007 - World Series TitleSo since taking the helm before the 2003 season Theo has led the Sox to the playoffs every year that he had the reins for the offseason... including 2 World Series titles. Not too shabby for a delusional bunch of also-rans.

I know he was talking about wilked's uneducated comment about the Yanks pitching being in shambles. Red Sox fans make statements like this on this board much more than Yankees fans. The Red Sox owned the beginning of last century too. How did that turn out for you?

 

[Sammy3469]

I have a feeling if both the Sox and Yankees deals stay as they are currently constructed, that he'll stay a Twin. Quite frankly Hughes, Cabrera, and a third tier prospect isn't enough for the best pitcher in baseball when you can get two 1st round picks the following year.

First round draft picks in baseball are a significant crap shoot. Look at any year really. I'd rather have major league ready talent than baseball draft picks for a guy that is under contract for one more year and I don't think I can resign him. I'm not saying the Yankees or Red Sox offers are overwhelming, but they both contain very good pieces.

Not really. It use to be the case, but with so much good scouting today the vast majority of high ceiling guys are gone after the supplemental picks unless you throw a huge bonus at some high school kid. Keeping those picks has become increasingly crucial to having a viable farm system (if my memory serves me right, BP did a study and founf each pick is worth something like 10-15 million dollars) unless you think Melky is really the second coming of Bernie, trading a Santana for a Hughes/Melky/third tier prospect is a losing proposition since neither Melky now the third tier prospect are worth either of the two picks. Santana for a year+two picks is greater than either of those packages (though the Sox package of somthing like Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson comes a lot closer to meeting that threshold). Unless the Twins get two top tier prospects back or 1 top tier and 2 upper tier prospect back, I just don't see why they'd do it.

 

[Funkley]

Well, let's assume that Lester is out and the framework of a deal is, say, Ellsbury/Lowrie/Bowden.....that's enough for me to move Santana. I think landing your leadoff hitter for the next several years and two nice prospects is enough. Given how good I personally think Ellsbury is and given how huge the organizational hole CF is for the Twins I do the deal while they can. They'll never get Ellsbury in July 2008 as by then he'll be in line for his first all star game.

 

[Gopher State]

Well, let's assume that Lester is out and the framework of a deal is, say, Ellsbury/Lowrie/Bowden.....that's enough for me to move Santana. I think landing your leadoff hitter for the next several years and two nice prospects is enough. Given how good I personally think Ellsbury is and given how huge the organizational hole CF is for the Twins I do the deal while they can. They'll never get Ellsbury in July 2008 as by then he'll be in line for his first all star game.

I think this is how it plays out now. Boston will be loaded with Santana at pitching, and with no major injuries should be the best team in the AL for several years. NY by putting up a deadline has taken themselves out of the Santana sweepstakes. I think Ellsbury is the #1 guy the Twins want, and if Boston will part with him, it's a done deal.

 

[[icon]]

The Red Sox owned the beginning of last century too. How did that turn out for you?

Oh jesus....