The Johan Santana rumor mill (1 Viewer)

[Sammy3469]

As for the Twins' attempt for the Yankees to include another pitching prospect in Kennedy in any deal, Yankees Senior Vice President Hank Steinbrenner told the New York Times: "That's not going to happen. To give up two of the three, there's no chance, not for anybody — unless it's [sandy] Koufax, and that's not happening."

And, this has been my (and other's) point: It is Sandy Koufax, Hank. In this day and age, this is exactly the type of guy you bend over backwards to get. Equally-important, you've now allowed your AL East division rival to get him in the process.I don't understand why the calculus of this is so damn difficult.

I have a feeling it's the fact they've been burned a couple of times with other pitchers while the Sox have been successful with Beckett, Schilling, etc.

 

[[icon]]

NASHVILLE -- The Red Sox [team stats] and Twins will resume “serious negotiations” later this morning on a blockbuster deal that would bring ace Johan Santana to the Red Sox, according to a baseball source involved in the negotiations.



The package of players the Twins would receive is still in flux and there are two packages under discussion, with still varying mixes of players in each. The first deal would include left-hander Jon Lester [stats] and center fielder Coco Crisp [stats], the other one is headed by center field prospect Jacoby Ellsbury. The Twins are still deciding which one they prefer. The Red Sox have successfully held the line on not including Ellsbury in a package with either Lester or Clay Buccholz, their other top starter.

Late Monday night, the Red Sox received a call from the Twins requesting the medical records of Lester. After reviewing the information, the Twins were satisfied that there were no red flags there that would block a deal, said the source.

“The Red Sox are legitimate, real players in this now,” said the source. “The Twins like their players.”

The Red Sox received a somewhat surprising call from the Twins late Monday night after Minnesota’s talks with the Yankees broke down because the Yankees refused to part with starting prospect Ian Kennedy in a package with top pitching prospect Phil Hughes and center fielder Melky Cabrera.

Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein was in meetings this morning but was expected to resume discussions with the Twins before noon.



There is no other team involved in these negotiations, it is believed. There remains a chance that the Yankees could jump back in by agreeing to include Kennedy but it remains to be seen if the Red Sox and Twins are too far down the road for the Yankees to come back. Right now, it appears so.

If the Red Sox land Santana, they would have 72 hours to negotiate a long-term contract extension with him. Santana’s representatives are standing by here at the Opryland to talk about a deal that is expected to be the highest-ever for a pitcher, worth approximately $20 million a year over the next five to six years.

 

[cobalt_27]

As for the Twins' attempt for the Yankees to include another pitching prospect in Kennedy in any deal, Yankees Senior Vice President Hank Steinbrenner told the New York Times: "That's not going to happen. To give up two of the three, there's no chance, not for anybody — unless it's [sandy] Koufax, and that's not happening."

And, this has been my (and other's) point: It is Sandy Koufax, Hank. In this day and age, this is exactly the type of guy you bend over backwards to get. Equally-important, you've now allowed your AL East division rival to get him in the process.I don't understand why the calculus of this is so damn difficult.

I have a feeling it's the fact they've been burned a couple of times with other pitchers while the Sox have been successful with Beckett, Schilling, etc.

We have been burned, but it's like we haven't learned our lesson at all. We've completely wasted our resources on crap like the Pavanos and Kevin Browns in baseball. It's rare that you get the opportunity to land a stud left-handed Hall of Fame pitcher who hasn't even turned 30, yet. Even rarer that you don't have to give up studs in return (maybe a few nice players, but no bonifide studs were involved in that package the Twins wanted).And, by tripping all over ourselves to retain these rather nice players, we've armed Boston with a deadly 1-2 punch for the next five years. All because we couldn't part with Ian Patrick Kennedy. I mean, seriously...

 

[Frostillicus]

If the Sox are able to get him for what appears to be a subpar package, tip your hat to them, what can you do? It seems clear the Twins have two standards of players if the preponderance of rumors we are hearing is to be believed, and the Yanks are being held to a higher one.

??Ellsbury = Hughes. Masterson/Lowrie > Cabrera/throw in

I disagree with this. Twins obviously do not. Hughes is a potential Ace.

yeah, i dont understand this either. Again, maybe its yankee bias, but Ellsbury just seems like a very fast slap hitter with very limited power and a good glove. If it breaks 100% perfect for him (and i think this is really going out on a ledge) he's somewhere between Damon and sizemore, only with less power. He could end up being nothing more than a better fielding Juan Pierre in his prime. If that is equal to what was the top pitching prospect in baseball 6 months ago, I don't know what to say.

Part of this is the fact the Twins have a lot more pitching in the minors than hitting, and have always been better at developing pitchers than hitters.

They Just moved Garza for Delmon Young. Liriano is coming off a major injury and Santana is leaving. In the past few years, they've developed guys like Cuddyer, Mauer and Morneau.If they would rather have Ellsbury than Hughes, I've got to believe that they just feel he is the better player. With Santana and Garza gone, and Liriano a question mark, their rotation needs major help. I know they have more prospects, but i dont understand passing up the guy who was the sports top pitching prospect to start this year.

The Twins have a lot more pitching prosepcts than hitting, and have always been better at developing pitchers than hitters.

 

[Reaper]

As for the Twins' attempt for the Yankees to include another pitching prospect in Kennedy in any deal, Yankees Senior Vice President Hank Steinbrenner told the New York Times: "That's not going to happen. To give up two of the three, there's no chance, not for anybody — unless it's [sandy] Koufax, and that's not happening."

And, this has been my (and other's) point: It is Sandy Koufax, Hank. In this day and age, this is exactly the type of guy you bend over backwards to get. Equally-important, you've now allowed your AL East division rival to get him in the process.I don't understand why the calculus of this is so damn difficult.

I have a feeling it's the fact they've been burned a couple of times with other pitchers while the Sox have been successful with Beckett, Schilling, etc.

We have been burned, but it's like we haven't learned our lesson at all. We've completely wasted our resources on crap like the Pavanos and Kevin Browns in baseball. It's rare that you get the opportunity to land a stud left-handed Hall of Fame pitcher who hasn't even turned 30, yet. Even rarer that you don't have to give up studs in return (maybe a few nice players, but no bonifide studs were involved in that package the Twins wanted).And, by tripping all over ourselves to retain these rather nice players, we've armed Boston with a deadly 1-2 punch for the next five years. All because we couldn't part with Ian Patrick Kennedy. I mean, seriously...

Granted...

It's tough though if they take Freaking Crisp and Lester from Boston over Melky And Hughes...

The Yankees have to also give up Kennedy to beat that deal? Come on.

Absolute Steal for the Sox if it goes down like that.

 

[The Ghost of Common]

Reaper -

Why is it so hard to grasp the fact that the deal is not simply Hughes/Melky or Lester/Crisp. The red sox are offering far more superior AA and AAA players than the Yankees who are just offering a "throw in" to the deal.

Those players augment the deal in Bostns favor pretty considerably. Please do your research and include Lowrie and Masterson in the debate as these guys are top prospects.

 

[cobalt_27]

As for the Twins' attempt for the Yankees to include another pitching prospect in Kennedy in any deal, Yankees Senior Vice President Hank Steinbrenner told the New York Times: "That's not going to happen. To give up two of the three, there's no chance, not for anybody — unless it's [sandy] Koufax, and that's not happening."

And, this has been my (and other's) point: It is Sandy Koufax, Hank. In this day and age, this is exactly the type of guy you bend over backwards to get. Equally-important, you've now allowed your AL East division rival to get him in the process.I don't understand why the calculus of this is so damn difficult.

I have a feeling it's the fact they've been burned a couple of times with other pitchers while the Sox have been successful with Beckett, Schilling, etc.

We have been burned, but it's like we haven't learned our lesson at all. We've completely wasted our resources on crap like the Pavanos and Kevin Browns in baseball. It's rare that you get the opportunity to land a stud left-handed Hall of Fame pitcher who hasn't even turned 30, yet. Even rarer that you don't have to give up studs in return (maybe a few nice players, but no bonifide studs were involved in that package the Twins wanted).And, by tripping all over ourselves to retain these rather nice players, we've armed Boston with a deadly 1-2 punch for the next five years. All because we couldn't part with Ian Patrick Kennedy. I mean, seriously...

Granted...

It's tough though if they take Freaking Crisp and Lester from Boston over Melky And Hughes...

The Yankees have to also give up Kennedy to beat that deal? Come on.

Absolute Steal for the Sox if it goes down like that.

Sure. It is a steal. And, maybe the Twins were asking for more from the Yanks than the Sox. But, what does it really matter? At the end of the day, are we going to gripe about the fairness of the deal or just do what it takes to get the damn thing done? I couldn't care less how our offer matches up against Boston's or vice versa at this point because, based on what we know, we had a chance to get Santana, and we blinked. Again, based on what we know, the Twins wanted one of two deals from the Yanks, and we said no. So, naturally, they'll go to Boston with whatever they can pull together, and that's that. When it's all said and done, we could have had him and given up a reasonable exchange of players to get him. But, Hank decided he could play a little fantasy baseball roulette here, and the Twins just shrugged him off and said, forget this.

If this goes down the way it looks like it will (at this moment), consider this rivalry over-and-done for the next five years. Sox are going to walk all over the league with that lineup and that staff. And, it will be Hank's fault for helping them out along the way.

 

[cobalt_27]

Reaper - Why is it so hard to grasp the fact that the deal is not simply Hughes/Melky or Lester/Crisp. The red sox are offering far more superior AA and AAA players than the Yankees who are just offering a "throw in" to the deal.Those players augment the deal in Bostns favor pretty considerably. Please do your research and include Lowrie and Masterson in the debate as these guys are top prospects.

Right. (And, I'm not Reaper, but I'll chime in, anyway...)But, that's why the Twins wanted Kennedy, and it appears as though they would have done the deal with the Yanks if he were added to the mix. So, we're not really talking about the Yanks v Sox at that point. The Twins were ready to dance with the Yanks, and it wasn't an unreasonable set of players, but the Yanks walked away.

 

[Michael Brown]

As for the Twins' attempt for the Yankees to include another pitching prospect in Kennedy in any deal, Yankees Senior Vice President Hank Steinbrenner told the New York Times: "That's not going to happen. To give up two of the three, there's no chance, not for anybody — unless it's [sandy] Koufax, and that's not happening."

And, this has been my (and other's) point: It is Sandy Koufax, Hank.

For what it's worth, Sandy Koufax broke down and never pitched after age 31.Alright so admittedly, that was just to stir the pot...but in all seriousness, the list of pitchers who have succeeded after signing mega-deals over the past 10 years is an extremely short one. The Yankees haven't been the only team burned by this either. Some of you guys seem to think that Santana is somehow immune to injury because he's been healthy so far. He's also pitched as a full-time starter for only about 4.5 years and isn't built like Clemens or Schilling, or even Smoltz.

If you tell me that it doesn't matter how well he pitches in years 4 and 5 and 6 of the contract, I have to disagree. This is very key to my argument, but I don't think the Yankees are ready to win right now anyway, with or without Santana. I think their window is going to be from 2010-2015 with the younger talent they're building up. The bullpen still won't be all that good in 2008, and they've still got some old slow guys that will again sit around and wait for 3-run HRs in October (which doesn't work). So I think they need to worry about a guy who could fall off a cliff in 2-3 years, because THAT'S when they'd need him.

 

[Funkley]

As for the Twins' attempt for the Yankees to include another pitching prospect in Kennedy in any deal, Yankees Senior Vice President Hank Steinbrenner told the New York Times: "That's not going to happen. To give up two of the three, there's no chance, not for anybody — unless it's [sandy] Koufax, and that's not happening."

And, this has been my (and other's) point: It is Sandy Koufax, Hank.

For what it's worth, Sandy Koufax broke down and never pitched after age 31.Alright so admittedly, that was just to stir the pot...but in all seriousness, the list of pitchers who have succeeded after signing mega-deals over the past 10 years is an extremely short one. The Yankees haven't been the only team burned by this either. Some of you guys seem to think that Santana is somehow immune to injury because he's been healthy so far. He's also pitched as a full-time starter for only about 4.5 years and isn't built like Clemens or Schilling, or even Smoltz.

If you tell me that it doesn't matter how well he pitches in years 4 and 5 and 6 of the contract, I have to disagree. This is very key to my argument, but I don't think the Yankees are ready to win right now anyway, with or without Santana. I think their window is going to be from 2010-2015 with the younger talent they're building up. The bullpen still won't be all that good in 2008, and they've still got some old slow guys that will again sit around and wait for 3-run HRs in October (which doesn't work). So I think they need to worry about a guy who could fall off a cliff in 2-3 years, because THAT'S when they'd need him.

Good point and I think it's the reason that the Twins won't go higher than 4 years at $80 million and also the reason why the Red Sox won't give both Ellsbury and Lester....why the Yanks won't give Hughes and Kennedy....there are some concerns here.

 

[Reaper]

Reaper - Why is it so hard to grasp the fact that the deal is not simply Hughes/Melky or Lester/Crisp. The red sox are offering far more superior AA and AAA players than the Yankees who are just offering a "throw in" to the deal.Those players augment the deal in Bostns favor pretty considerably. Please do your research and include Lowrie and Masterson in the debate as these guys are top prospects.

That's not hard to grasp at all... But, That's the "We'll see" part of the deal... We don't know exactly what that is yet from either side....

 

[wilked]

OK, Gammons just said the Twins are deciding between two deals:

Lester, Coco, Lowrie, and Masterson, or

Ellsbury, Lowrie, and Masterson

Personally I would rather give up the first then the second...

 

[icon]

Wilked just beat me. Here's the full post:

Peter Gammons reported that the Twins and Red Sox are "supposed to meet this afternoon to continue discussions on the Johan Santana deal. Sources indicate the Twins are still trying to decide between a 3-for-1 trade for center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury, infielder Jed Lowrie, pitching prospect Justin Masterson and a 4-for-1 swap that substitutes lefty starter Jon Lester and center fielder Coco Crisp for Ellsbury." ... From SI.com's John Heyman this afternoon: "The Red Sox are expected to enhance their offer by the early afternoon Tuesday. After the Twins' talks with the Yankees hit a stalemate over prospects just as the Yankees' self-imposed deadline hit late Monday, Minnesota put in a midnight call to Boston and requested that the Red Sox make their 'best' offer that included young left-hander Jon Lester." Heyman also writes that the Twins are expected to decide by the end of today whether Santana will go to Boston or possibly the Yankees, though the Bombers have said any deal is "probably off." The Red Sox and Twins exchanged medical information on Santana and Lester early this morning, an indication that the clubs may be closing in on a deal, according to Boston Globe reporters Gordon Edes and Amalie Benjamin.

 

[Sammy3469]

As for the Twins' attempt for the Yankees to include another pitching prospect in Kennedy in any deal, Yankees Senior Vice President Hank Steinbrenner told the New York Times: "That's not going to happen. To give up two of the three, there's no chance, not for anybody — unless it's [sandy] Koufax, and that's not happening."

And, this has been my (and other's) point: It is Sandy Koufax, Hank.

For what it's worth, Sandy Koufax broke down and never pitched after age 31.Alright so admittedly, that was just to stir the pot...but in all seriousness, the list of pitchers who have succeeded after signing mega-deals over the past 10 years is an extremely short one. The Yankees haven't been the only team burned by this either. Some of you guys seem to think that Santana is somehow immune to injury because he's been healthy so far. He's also pitched as a full-time starter for only about 4.5 years and isn't built like Clemens or Schilling, or even Smoltz.

If you tell me that it doesn't matter how well he pitches in years 4 and 5 and 6 of the contract, I have to disagree. This is very key to my argument, but I don't think the Yankees are ready to win right now anyway, with or without Santana. I think their window is going to be from 2010-2015 with the younger talent they're building up. The bullpen still won't be all that good in 2008, and they've still got some old slow guys that will again sit around and wait for 3-run HRs in October (which doesn't work). So I think they need to worry about a guy who could fall off a cliff in 2-3 years, because THAT'S when they'd need him.

They'd be neck and neck with the Sox with they're lineup and a starting rotation of Santana, Wang, Pettitte, Mussina, Joba. With Posada, A-Rod, Rivera, Damon, Matsui, and Jeter all on the wrong side of 30, this is a team built for now, not 2010. Hell most teams don't even think out 3 much less 8 years.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Apropos only of the "most incredible things you've seen live" comment, I saw Jeter score from first on a ground ball single up the middle...

The bases were loaded with two outs, full count, and he was taking such a ridiculous running lead off of first as the pitch was being delivered that I wondered why the pitcher didn't step off...Had he done so, he could have walked over to first and picked Jeter off...

So the hitter (Posada maybe?) grounds it up the middle, and Jeter comes tearing around 3rd to score as the thrw came into the cut off guy...

Just a shake your head thing that I might never see again in a game...

July 19th, 2003Here's the inning PBP (GB Retrosheet.org):

YANKEES 5TH: Mondesi singled to left; Zeile singled to left

[Mondesi to second]; Flaherty reached on a fielder's choice on a

sacrifice bunt [Mondesi to third, Zeile to second]; Wilson

grounded into a double play (third to catcher to first) [Zeile

to third, Flaherty to second, Mondesi out at home]; Soriano

walked; Jeter singled to right [Zeile scored, Flaherty to third,

Soriano to second]; Giambi singled to center [Flaherty scored,

Soriano scored, Jeter scored]; Sabathia threw a wild pitch

[Giambi to second]; Williams grounded out (pitcher to first); 4

R, 4 H, 0 E, 1 LOB. Indians 4, Yankees 6.

Cool moment. same for Cobalt, although as a Yankee fan I would be more upset Icon made a good point about getting some baseball talk in;

A quick moment and memory I had was when my brother and I bought my dad (now passed away) tickets to a Yankee Red Sox game and Clemens was on the mound against the Yanks (I don't remember the date, but I guess it was around 1988 or so). The Yanks fell behind 9-0 going into the bottom of the 4th and my dad looks at us and says thanks guys...Well the Yanks put up 10 or 11 runs in that 4th inning and it was one of the greatest family times (maybe that is sad???) The Red Sox came back and tied it up but the Yanks hit a HR in the 8th or 9th to win it (I think it was Pagliarulo). I need to try and locate that game.

Edited to add link (for some reason I kept getting an error using the Link button? I was wrong it was in 11 innings and Pags scored the winning run and didn't HR

query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE6DB1431F934A15755C0A961948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

I remember that game vividly...I was 9, about to turn 10, and school had just recently finished for the summer...

My dad and I had to drive into Manhattan to help my grandfather with some stuff around his apartment...

We didn't have cable, so we were listening to the game on the radio...

Heard them go down 9-0, then started to drive home to Queens, listening to the game on the radio in the car...

Went nuts as the Yanks scored their 11 runs:

YANKEES 3RD: Randolph singled to center; Ward flied out to

right; Mattingly singled to center [Randolph to third]; Winfield

homered [Randolph scored, Mattingly scored]; Washington walked;

Easler doubled to left [Washington to third]; Pagliarulo singled

to center [Washington scored, Easler to third]; Salas walked

[Pagliarulo to second]; Tolleson singled to left [Easler scored,

Pagliarulo scored, Salas to third, Tolleson to second (error by

Rice)]; CRAWFORD REPLACED CLEMENS (PITCHING); Randolph walked;

Ward singled to right [salas scored, Tolleson scored, Randolph

to third]; Mattingly doubled to left [Randolph scored, Ward out

at third (left to third)]; Winfield singled to left [Mattingly

scored, Winfield to second (on throw to home)]; BOLTON REPLACED

CRAWFORD (PITCHING); Bolton threw a wild pitch [Winfield to

third]; Washington walked; Gedman allowed a passed ball

[Winfield scored (unearned), Washington to second]; Easler

grounded out (second to first); 11 R (10 ER), 9 H, 1 E, 1 LOB.

Red Sox 9, Yankees 11.

We sat there in the car outside of our apartment listening to extra innings b/c we didn't want to risk missing anything...Great memory...My dad still references the game anytime the Yanks start off a game down...

"Remember that game against Clemens in 1987," he says...

 

[Funkley]

Well, give me Ellsbury if I have a vote.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Let me try one more scenario. Maybe some players want as much money as possible but also want to win? Makes obvious sense...If you are Santana, you would rather play in NY than Boston (Torii Hunter told us that and NY is a much bigger following). Now if you get traded to NY the Yanks have depleted some of their young talent. if you become a free agent there is a very good chance you get more money because teams don't have to give up their young talent and would pay more for your services.

therefore, if you are Santana, you could get a little more money but also go to a team that has more talent on it if you wait a year.

the downside is injury, but you could get insurance.

Just a thought as Santana could say no to any trade.

 

[Sammy3469]

Let me try one more scenario. Maybe some players want as much money as possible but also want to win? Makes obvious sense...If you are Santana, you would rather play in NY than Boston (Torii Hunter told us that and NY is a much bigger following). Now if you get traded to NY the Yanks have depleted some of their young talent. if you become a free agent there is a very good chance you get more money because teams don't have to give up their young talent and would pay more for your services.

therefore, if you are Santana, you could get a little more money but also go to a team that has more talent on it if you wait a year.

the downside is injury, but you could get insurance.

Just a thought as Santana could say no to any trade.

What are you trying to say? If Santana doesn't get dealt, the Sox would still have more talent than the Yankees this year and next.

 

[EZD222]

Let me try one more scenario. Maybe some players want as much money as possible but also want to win? Makes obvious sense...If you are Santana, you would rather play in NY than Boston (Torii Hunter told us that and NY is a much bigger following). Now if you get traded to NY the Yanks have depleted some of their young talent. if you become a free agent there is a very good chance you get more money because teams don't have to give up their young talent and would pay more for your services.

therefore, if you are Santana, you could get a little more money but also go to a team that has more talent on it if you wait a year.

the downside is injury, but you could get insurance.

Just a thought as Santana could say no to any trade.

What are you trying to say? If Santana doesn't get dealt, the Sox would still have more talent than the Yankees this year and next.

That would be idiotic on Santana's part. What if he gets hurt next year and blows out his arm?

 

[[icon]]

Let me try one more scenario. Maybe some players want as much money as possible but also want to win? Makes obvious sense...If you are Santana, you would rather play in NY than Boston (Torii Hunter told us that and NY is a much bigger following). Now if you get traded to NY the Yanks have depleted some of their young talent. if you become a free agent there is a very good chance you get more money because teams don't have to give up their young talent and would pay more for your services.therefore, if you are Santana, you could get a little more money but also go to a team that has more talent on it if you wait a year.the downside is injury, but you could get insurance.Just a thought as Santana could say no to any trade.

So is your blog a SciFi blog by any chance?

 

[shadyridr]

Looks like Angels are in the running. According to the Providence Journal, the Angels have made a late bid for Johan Santana, with Jered Weaver likely involved as bait.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

The Twins have to be loving this...

If they don't exact a premium package after all of this, their GM should be shot

 

[shadyridr]

UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 2:46pm: According to Sean McAdam, the Twins will also meet with the Angels this afternoon to discuss Santana. The Twins would want Jered Weaver and Brandon Wood for starters. McAdam says the Red Sox and Twins haven't spoken since this morning. Meanwhile Joe Christensen says there's lobby buzz about the Red Sox/Twins deal becoming a 5-for-1.

 

[Domination]

UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 2:46pm: According to Sean McAdam, the Twins will also meet with the Angels this afternoon to discuss Santana. The Twins would want Jered Weaver and Brandon Wood for starters. McAdam says the Red Sox and Twins haven't spoken since this morning. Meanwhile Joe Christensen says there's lobby buzz about the Red Sox/Twins deal becoming a 5-for-1.

If they can swing a deal for Weaver, Wood, and prospect or 2 that is the best deal IMO. The funny thing is, it would still allow the Angels to still have enough to go get Cabrerra.

 

[Reaper]

UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 2:46pm: According to Sean McAdam, the Twins will also meet with the Angels this afternoon to discuss Santana. The Twins would want Jered Weaver and Brandon Wood for starters. McAdam says the Red Sox and Twins haven't spoken since this morning. Meanwhile Joe Christensen says there's lobby buzz about the Red Sox/Twins deal becoming a 5-for-1.

OK Now..... That's a lot different.

I know what everyone thinks of NY sports radio but, the concensus seems that the Yankees should not give up Kennedy AND Hughes..

Stephen A. gets on and Raves about how the Yankees just #### the bed and made the worst move (non-move) in the history of sports - then he's asked if he'd give up Hughes and Kennedy and he say's NO.....

Mike and the Mad dog are split of course... Both think Hughes AND Kennedy are too much but, Dog says you can't let him go to Boston......

Lots of Yankee fans willing to rely on the 3 young pitchers........

Little to no talk about the minor leaguers in these deals so far.

 

[Reaper]

5th Player... Ryan Kalish As Per Gammons

Age: 19

Born: March 28, 1988

Shrewsbury, NJ

Height: 6-0

Weight: 200

Bats: Left

Throws: Left

Drafted: 9th round, 2006

How Acquired: Draft

High School: Red Bank Catholic HS (NJ)

ETA: 2011

Scouting Report: Excellent athlete with a solid build, good bat speed, and lots of quickness on the basepaths. Leadoff hitter potential. The organization worked with Kalish to improve his swing and plate patience prior to his 2007 short-season debut, and he has demonstrated a very good approach at the plate. Not a lot of present power but does have decent power potential. In the field, he has excellent range, a strong arm, and average accuracy, but needs to work on decision making in the field. Strong build, tough competitor. Mature demeanor. Kalish tends to be a very popular player with fans, and he himself grew up a Red Sox fan. Could project as a center fielder or a right fielder. Missed part of 2007 season with a wrist injury, should be fully healed for 2008.

 

[shadyridr]

The Sox offer reminds me of an offer Id make in Madden to the computer (ie offering a bunch of solid players for 1 great player).

 

[Alias]

listening to all the NYY fans calling into MMD

"What about Santana's September?"

"$150MM is too much for a pitcher, what happens if he gets hurt?"

 

[cobalt_27]

The Sox offer reminds me of an offer Id make in Madden to the computer (ie offering a bunch of solid players for 1 great player).

Shady, how is this any different than what the Twins reportedly had in place with the Yanks, which we walked away from?

 

[shadyridr]

The Sox offer reminds me of an offer Id make in Madden to the computer (ie offering a bunch of solid players for 1 great player).

Shady, how is this any different than what the Twins reportedly had in place with the Yanks, which we walked away from?

PHIL HUGHES (thats assuming Lester is in the Sox deal instead of Ellsbury)

 

[Funkley]

The Sox offer reminds me of an offer Id make in Madden to the computer (ie offering a bunch of solid players for 1 great player).

Shady, how is this any different than what the Twins reportedly had in place with the Yanks, which we walked away from?

PHIL HUGHES (thats assuming Lester is in the Sox deal instead of Ellsbury)

Phil Hughes and nothing. Or several useful pieces. Don't make it sound like organizational top 10 prospects are this easily replaced. The Red Sox have had a couple damn nice drafts lately and are in the process of moving a lot of that talent away in this deal. All of the players the Twins are receiving at this point are among the Red Sox top talent. This trade has a "chance" to set the Twins up for a long time. They go from having hardly any position players that are projectable to having a few. For a player they will lose. They Yankees are the fools here for not offering Kennedy. He's nice but you don't walk away from a deal over Ian Kennedy.

 

[cobalt_27]

The Sox offer reminds me of an offer Id make in Madden to the computer (ie offering a bunch of solid players for 1 great player).

Shady, how is this any different than what the Twins reportedly had in place with the Yanks, which we walked away from?

PHIL HUGHES (thats assuming Lester is in the Sox deal instead of Ellsbury)

Right. Offer up a really nice player and others to get that green light to turn on for that uber-stud. Again, how is Hughes + change for Johann any different?

 

[The Ghost of Common]

The Sox offer reminds me of an offer Id make in Madden to the computer (ie offering a bunch of solid players for 1 great player).

Shady, how is this any different than what the Twins reportedly had in place with the Yanks, which we walked away from?

PHIL HUGHES (thats assuming Lester is in the Sox deal instead of Ellsbury)

So Phillip Hughes is now more than a solid player...right NOW at this very moment?Phillip Hughes is just that, another solid player. The Yanks are offering 2 solid players and a scrub

The sox are offering 5 Solid players per your own admission.

Wake up

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

listening to all the NYY fans calling into MMD "What about Santana's September?""$150MM is too much for a pitcher, what happens if he gets hurt?"

You can all you like, but he was most definately not the same pitcher of old in the second half of last season, and his September was brutal. There is a point to consider here, why is Johan looking to sign now rather than see what a true open market could generate for him financially. Does he have concerns over his own health? Are we splitting hairs? Quite possibly, but when you are giving away your future AND 150 million, you split some hairs.

 

[[icon]]

The Sox offer reminds me of an offer Id make in Madden to the computer (ie offering a bunch of solid players for 1 great player).

Shady, how is this any different than what the Twins reportedly had in place with the Yanks, which we walked away from?

PHIL HUGHES (thats assuming Lester is in the Sox deal instead of Ellsbury)

Twins NEED a CF (they get Crisp)... they NEED a SS (they get Lowrie)... they also get a solid young lefty with #3 or #2 potential.... and a guy who they feel is set to be a very good set up man in the pen... PLUS another player. Or they getTwins NEED a CF (they get Melky).. they NEED a SS (They get Nothing)... they also get a solid young SP with #2 or #1 potential... and some other guy who I know little about but seems to be a throwin. They give up a bit of POTENTIAL at the SP in order to fill a hole at SS and get another young bullpen arm that they happen to be high on. I know Hughes is going to be able to convert water into wine and mulitiply loaves in a few years but right now he's a kid who puts a lot of people on base, has been getting hurt a lot...and lets in over 4 runs every 9 inning.s.

 

[cobalt_27]

The Sox offer reminds me of an offer Id make in Madden to the computer (ie offering a bunch of solid players for 1 great player).

Shady, how is this any different than what the Twins reportedly had in place with the Yanks, which we walked away from?

PHIL HUGHES (thats assuming Lester is in the Sox deal instead of Ellsbury)

Phil Hughes and nothing. Or several useful pieces. Don't make it sound like organizational top 10 prospects are this easily replaced. The Red Sox have had a couple damn nice drafts lately and are in the process of moving a lot of that talent away in this deal. All of the players the Twins are receiving at this point are among the Red Sox top talent. This trade has a "chance" to set the Twins up for a long time. They go from having hardly any position players that are projectable to having a few. For a player they will lose. They Yankees are the fools here for not offering Kennedy. He's nice but you don't walk away from a deal over Ian Kennedy.

Thank you. I'm killing brain cells trying to decode this. It's Ian Freaking Patrick Kennedy, for crying out loud. Not like we're dealing Cy Young here. Another nice player to package in a Madden-like trade for Santana. Nothing more.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Jayson Stark seems to think its dead:

With Pettitte back, the Yankees can mount a respectable rotation, with or without Santana -- around Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy and Mike Mussina.

That rotation sucks. I can't believe any Yankee fan would be happy going into the season with that.

Hmm, this is better than last year and the rest of the team is in tact. So there is no reason the Yanks can't get into the postseason again.Wang is better than people think because all they see is his tough outings against Cleveland in the playoffs, but the guy had a 3.70 ERA last year. There is a lot to rely on with the young guys, but it is better than what we had last year. if you take the 81 starts that made up the ones NOT from the guys the Yanks will count on in 2008 here are the totals (Clemens and Mussina are part of these numbers and Clemens was the ONLY reason why these are not even worse)81 starts 419 IP, 492 Hits, 255 ER, 58 HRs, 156 walks and 259 k'sWHIP 1.55ERA 5.50Now, I would expect Joba, Kennedy and Hughes to be a full run better than this! the Yanks were 8th in ERA and runs allowed last year out of 14 AL teams. Also, it should be noted that the bullpen was taxed heavily with the 5.1 innings average start for half their starts. If the Yanks can get this group to have an ERA of 4.5 (which seems reasonable) they can help the bullpen be rested and lower the ERA of the team in the the top 5 in the AL. I am aware that Joba would not be in the pen for the 20 Innings he pitched, but I will assume that the overall bullpen stays the same with some rest and less 5th inning entries.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Jayson Stark seems to think its dead:

With Pettitte back, the Yankees can mount a respectable rotation, with or without Santana -- around Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy and Mike Mussina.

That rotation sucks. I can't believe any Yankee fan would be happy going into the season with that.

It will likely be erratic. Moose is another year older, Pettite dodged the injury bullet last year for the most part, but he's got dog meat for an elbow, Wang is definately a solid contributor, he'd be the best #3 starter in baseball if two guys can step up, and the kids are definite question marks. But realistically, you're going to endure some growing pains with them at some point anyway, and the risk is well worth the reward long term if they become viable big leaguers. I would much prefer to face the future with them than without them for a year of glory. Haren is a very capable pitcher, but I wouldn't call him money in the bank, especially in the AL East, Bedard isn't going anywhere, and if the price for Johan is as advertisted, Phil and IPK, then that is too much.

Personally, I'm banking on Kei Igawa to bounce back big time

I like the optimism at least.See, what I cant foresee is the Yankees not having an ace at the top of their staff. As good as Wang has been (and I am still amazed at how well he has done with his stuff) he is not a top of the rotation guy. A fantastic #3 as you said, perhaps even one of the best #2's. But, who knows. Maybe one of Kennedy/Hughes/Joba steps up huge, maybe Mussina finds his 2006 stuff again. I dont know though.

Wang throws 93-95 with incredible movement and he throws strikes; That is very good stuff

 

[[icon]]

listening to all the NYY fans calling into MMD

"What about Santana's September?"

"$150MM is too much for a pitcher, what happens if he gets hurt?"

You can all you like, but he was most definately not the same pitcher of old in the second half of last season, and his September was brutal.

While I agree you should split hairs:1) Most of his peripherals stayed pretty similar

2) Bill James thinks the blip in HR is an anomaly and projects a regression to the mean (improvement)

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playe...&position=P

 

[Liquid Tension]

Hank is a complete moron. What did he stand to gain by putting a deadline on this? If I am the owner/GM of the Twins that would just make me not want to do business with the Yanks. So basically they say they withdraw. This puts the Twins in a bit of a pinch and Boston has already put a solid enough offer on the table. One that is at least better than getting 2 draft picks. Can someone explain to me how The Yankees benefit from this whatsoever? By pulling out they drop the price down. I'm not saying the Sox will get Santana but this maneuver seems a bit childlike. Memo to Hank: The Yankees need Santana, Santana doesn't need The Yankees.

I said this earlier so Obviously, I agree. It really shows a lack of business negotiation skill. Even staying in it could draw up the price for the Red Sox if he didn't want Santana (which is a mistake)

 

[Sammy3469]

listening to all the NYY fans calling into MMD "What about Santana's September?""$150MM is too much for a pitcher, what happens if he gets hurt?"

You can all you like, but he was most definately not the same pitcher of old in the second half of last season, and his September was brutal. There is a point to consider here, why is Johan looking to sign now rather than see what a true open market could generate for him financially. Does he have concerns over his own health? Are we splitting hairs? Quite possibly, but when you are giving away your future AND 150 million, you split some hairs.

Wow...just wow....he (and the union) want him to sign this offseason to establish a new highwater $ mark for pitchers. That and he's only making 13 mil this year, so yeah he probably wants a little security. Is it any different than Howard wanting to redo his deal or A-Rod opting out. All these guys always want a bigger and longer deal. that's just the way it works. I'll reiterate, the Yankees are complete MORONS if they balk at not gettting Santana over some prospect who may turn into a #2 or 3. Those types of guys are relatively easy to replace through the draft especially if you're willing to pay over slot or through the international market or in the FA market if you have the money. The Yankees are taking an absolutely moronic position here.

 

[[icon]]

Jayson Stark seems to think its dead:

With Pettitte back, the Yankees can mount a respectable rotation, with or without Santana -- around Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy and Mike Mussina.

That rotation sucks. I can't believe any Yankee fan would be happy going into the season with that.

It will likely be erratic. Moose is another year older, Pettite dodged the injury bullet last year for the most part, but he's got dog meat for an elbow, Wang is definately a solid contributor, he'd be the best #3 starter in baseball if two guys can step up, and the kids are definite question marks. But realistically, you're going to endure some growing pains with them at some point anyway, and the risk is well worth the reward long term if they become viable big leaguers. I would much prefer to face the future with them than without them for a year of glory. Haren is a very capable pitcher, but I wouldn't call him money in the bank, especially in the AL East, Bedard isn't going anywhere, and if the price for Johan is as advertisted, Phil and IPK, then that is too much.

Personally, I'm banking on Kei Igawa to bounce back big time

I like the optimism at least.See, what I cant foresee is the Yankees not having an ace at the top of their staff. As good as Wang has been (and I am still amazed at how well he has done with his stuff) he is not a top of the rotation guy. A fantastic #3 as you said, perhaps even one of the best #2's. But, who knows. Maybe one of Kennedy/Hughes/Joba steps up huge, maybe Mussina finds his 2006 stuff again. I dont know though.

Wang throws 93-95 with incredible movement and he throws strikes; That is very good stuff

How's he fare in the postsesason? 7.74 / 1.74 with a OPPBA of .343.... I'll pass thanks.

 

[wilked]

This thread is actually pretty good for separating the casual homer fans from the more analytical baseball fans.

Looking strictly at peripherals last year, Santana had a very strong case for the Cy. His last few years have been the most dominant of any pitcher since Pedro's peak years. There is no reason to downplay his worth.

As for the poster who suggested that Santana is trying to get a contract this year because he is predicting a personal down year in 08, get real. People get injured, so you balance that risk with signing long term contracts. As I said, Santana just had one of the most dominating 4 year stretches ever by a pitcher. What would suggest that his value has much more room to improve? He is not required to sign a lowball deal if he is traded...he will become the highest paid pitcher ever, bet your ### on that. $150 Million bucks. Think about that. That comment about him wanting to sign now due to him predicting a down year for himself might be the most ridiculous thing in this entire thread, and there is no shortage of that to start with.

 

[Liquid Tension]

less than 6 months ago Hughes was considered the top SP prospect in the game. Now after 1/2 a season limited by a few unfortunate injuries he's no longer special? I really dont buy that. Don't get me wrong, he'd be super fortunate to ever touch Santana. But i honestly think the Twins are trying to clown the Yankees on this one. They think that by threatening to move him to the Sox, they will be able to pull another B+ rated prospect (Kennedy) essentially making New York bid against themselves out of fear. A package of Hughes, Cabrera and another mid-level prospect is better than any sox package without buckholtz or Elsbery. If the yanks just say "This is our offer, take it or leave it, i really think the Twins will come back. This so called deadline is just playing hardball. The offer is still on the table, and if the twins like those players more than Crisp and Lester (which IMO they should) NY and Minn will make a deal.

I agree that you can't blink, but the deadline was idiotic. If Ellsbury or Buchholz are not involved the twins are morons as lester is nothing special.The Yanks should let them know that the deadline is with the players we're are offering but feel free to call us if you still want the package and we might say yes.The one thing that I don't know and it is a big issue is how fast Hughes throws when healthy. I mean last year he averaged about 91 MPH and everyone said he is a 95MPH guy. To go along with a very good curve and changeup he could see why he would be the top prospect. Was it is hammy causing the issue or was it just more hype like Irabu throwing 97 MPH? if he really is a 95 MPH guy then I would be OK with them backing off but not giving up.

 

[wilked]

The Yankees have pulled out of trade talks for Minnesota Twins ace Johan Santana."(Hank Steinbrenner) closed the door on the Santana thing," a high-ranking Yankees official said today. "The Santana thing's over."The official spoke on the condition of anyonymity because the Yankees are trying to limit public comments. Hank Steinbrenner, the team's senior vice president, would not comment on Santana. He did not explain why the Yankees withdrew from discussions, but last night the Twins went back to the Boston Red Sox after the Yankees again refused to include pitcher Ian Kennedy along with right-hander Phil Hughes and outfielder Melky Cabrera.

 

[Liquid Tension]

less than 6 months ago Hughes was considered the top SP prospect in the game. Now after 1/2 a season limited by a few unfortunate injuries he's no longer special? I really dont buy that. Don't get me wrong, he'd be super fortunate to ever touch Santana. But i honestly think the Twins are trying to clown the Yankees on this one. They think that by threatening to move him to the Sox, they will be able to pull another B+ rated prospect (Kennedy) essentially making New York bid against themselves out of fear.

A package of Hughes, Cabrera and another mid-level prospect is better than any sox package without buckholtz or Elsbery. If the yanks just say "This is our offer, take it or leave it, i really think the Twins will come back. This so called deadline is just playing hardball. The offer is still on the table, and if the twins like those players more than Crisp and Lester (which IMO they should) NY and Minn will make a deal.

It's really not when the 3rd player involved is a defensive SS. The Twins would basically trading Santana for a potentially great SP, a 3rd/4th OF, and a throw-in. Count me unimpressed.

I wouldnt mind Horne being the 3rd prospect. He is another B level prospect (considered the Yanks 4th best pitching prospect). I dont wanna trade Action Jackson.

I swear, the homerism is just so thick here, I can hardly see through it. You're telling me, if you're the GM, you'd rather keep Austin Jackson and let Santana go to Boston instead of trade Jackson and bring Santana here? I mean, seriously, our kids on the farm are not that good. What you're proposing is just handing over the AL East to Boston while we spend the next 5 years developing these kids. Sounds like the quintessential MIN or OAK gameplan taking shape.Whatever mistakes we've made in the past to overpay for the Pavanos and Browns of the league should not cloud our judgment with Santana. The Yanks would be fools to let him slip just because we're worried about losing our B prospects.

So you're telling me the package of Lester, Crisp, Masterson, and Lowrie is equivalent to Hughes, Cabrera, and Jackson or Kennedy? You could call me a homer but you dont sound like you know much about baseball.

In a word yes. The combo of Masterson and Lowrie over Jackson/Kennedy more than makes up the difference between Lester and Hughes and i think Crisp and Cabrera are basically equal.

Have to agree. As a Twins fan and an avid AL keeper league prospector, I'd rather have Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson than Hughes/Cabrera/toss in. Jackson and Horne just aren't top shelf prospects. Kennedy doesn't seem to be in the mix.

I can't tell you what to think but the logic here doesn't make sense. We are talking about trading for a great pitcher in Santana , but then the difference between Lester and Hughes isn't that great? I think the difference is large just as the difference between Santana and Wang is large. When Hughes is the best prospect you want that guy and not a bunch of B guys

 

[doomsdaydoc]

The Yankees need an ACE- I would prefer they did not have to give up as much as the Twins want. However, if Santana goes to the Sawx- as it appears to be, then we are looking at a potential dynasty- that pitching is going to be tough to beat. In that case, might as well develop the youngsters for the future, cause there is no point in expecting to win for the next 5 years.

 

[Funkley]

less than 6 months ago Hughes was considered the top SP prospect in the game. Now after 1/2 a season limited by a few unfortunate injuries he's no longer special? I really dont buy that. Don't get me wrong, he'd be super fortunate to ever touch Santana. But i honestly think the Twins are trying to clown the Yankees on this one. They think that by threatening to move him to the Sox, they will be able to pull another B+ rated prospect (Kennedy) essentially making New York bid against themselves out of fear.

A package of Hughes, Cabrera and another mid-level prospect is better than any sox package without buckholtz or Elsbery. If the yanks just say "This is our offer, take it or leave it, i really think the Twins will come back. This so called deadline is just playing hardball. The offer is still on the table, and if the twins like those players more than Crisp and Lester (which IMO they should) NY and Minn will make a deal.

It's really not when the 3rd player involved is a defensive SS. The Twins would basically trading Santana for a potentially great SP, a 3rd/4th OF, and a throw-in. Count me unimpressed.

I wouldnt mind Horne being the 3rd prospect. He is another B level prospect (considered the Yanks 4th best pitching prospect). I dont wanna trade Action Jackson.

I swear, the homerism is just so thick here, I can hardly see through it. You're telling me, if you're the GM, you'd rather keep Austin Jackson and let Santana go to Boston instead of trade Jackson and bring Santana here? I mean, seriously, our kids on the farm are not that good. What you're proposing is just handing over the AL East to Boston while we spend the next 5 years developing these kids. Sounds like the quintessential MIN or OAK gameplan taking shape.Whatever mistakes we've made in the past to overpay for the Pavanos and Browns of the league should not cloud our judgment with Santana. The Yanks would be fools to let him slip just because we're worried about losing our B prospects.

So you're telling me the package of Lester, Crisp, Masterson, and Lowrie is equivalent to Hughes, Cabrera, and Jackson or Kennedy? You could call me a homer but you dont sound like you know much about baseball.

In a word yes. The combo of Masterson and Lowrie over Jackson/Kennedy more than makes up the difference between Lester and Hughes and i think Crisp and Cabrera are basically equal.

Have to agree. As a Twins fan and an avid AL keeper league prospector, I'd rather have Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson than Hughes/Cabrera/toss in. Jackson and Horne just aren't top shelf prospects. Kennedy doesn't seem to be in the mix.

I can't tell you what to think but the logic here doesn't make sense. We are talking about trading for a great pitcher in Santana , but then the difference between Lester and Hughes isn't that great? I think the difference is large just as the difference between Santana and Wang is large. When Hughes is the best prospect you want that guy and not a bunch of B guys

I disagree. The Twins add nothing by trading Santana, they simply add his "replacement". Wouldn't you rather roll the dice and hope that you get lucky? This is afterall almost all luck. By using your logic they'd have traded for Pedro Feliz instead of Liriano/Nathan/Boof. There are times when quantity is better. This is one of them imo.

 

[cobalt_27]

The Yankees have pulled out of trade talks for Minnesota Twins ace Johan Santana."(Hank Steinbrenner) closed the door on the Santana thing," a high-ranking Yankees official said today. "The Santana thing's over."The official spoke on the condition of anyonymity because the Yankees are trying to limit public comments. Hank Steinbrenner, the team's senior vice president, would not comment on Santana. He did not explain why the Yankees withdrew from discussions, but last night the Twins went back to the Boston Red Sox after the Yankees again refused to include pitcher Ian Kennedy along with right-hander Phil Hughes and outfielder Melky Cabrera.

Thank you.I will now go slit my wrists.

 

[shadyridr]

less than 6 months ago Hughes was considered the top SP prospect in the game. Now after 1/2 a season limited by a few unfortunate injuries he's no longer special? I really dont buy that. Don't get me wrong, he'd be super fortunate to ever touch Santana. But i honestly think the Twins are trying to clown the Yankees on this one. They think that by threatening to move him to the Sox, they will be able to pull another B+ rated prospect (Kennedy) essentially making New York bid against themselves out of fear.

A package of Hughes, Cabrera and another mid-level prospect is better than any sox package without buckholtz or Elsbery. If the yanks just say "This is our offer, take it or leave it, i really think the Twins will come back. This so called deadline is just playing hardball. The offer is still on the table, and if the twins like those players more than Crisp and Lester (which IMO they should) NY and Minn will make a deal.

It's really not when the 3rd player involved is a defensive SS. The Twins would basically trading Santana for a potentially great SP, a 3rd/4th OF, and a throw-in. Count me unimpressed.

I wouldnt mind Horne being the 3rd prospect. He is another B level prospect (considered the Yanks 4th best pitching prospect). I dont wanna trade Action Jackson.

I swear, the homerism is just so thick here, I can hardly see through it. You're telling me, if you're the GM, you'd rather keep Austin Jackson and let Santana go to Boston instead of trade Jackson and bring Santana here? I mean, seriously, our kids on the farm are not that good. What you're proposing is just handing over the AL East to Boston while we spend the next 5 years developing these kids. Sounds like the quintessential MIN or OAK gameplan taking shape.Whatever mistakes we've made in the past to overpay for the Pavanos and Browns of the league should not cloud our judgment with Santana. The Yanks would be fools to let him slip just because we're worried about losing our B prospects.

So you're telling me the package of Lester, Crisp, Masterson, and Lowrie is equivalent to Hughes, Cabrera, and Jackson or Kennedy? You could call me a homer but you dont sound like you know much about baseball.

In a word yes. The combo of Masterson and Lowrie over Jackson/Kennedy more than makes up the difference between Lester and Hughes and i think Crisp and Cabrera are basically equal.

Have to agree. As a Twins fan and an avid AL keeper league prospector, I'd rather have Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson than Hughes/Cabrera/toss in. Jackson and Horne just aren't top shelf prospects. Kennedy doesn't seem to be in the mix.

I can't tell you what to think but the logic here doesn't make sense. We are talking about trading for a great pitcher in Santana , but then the difference between Lester and Hughes isn't that great? I think the difference is large just as the difference between Santana and Wang is large. When Hughes is the best prospect you want that guy and not a bunch of B guys

I disagree. The Twins add nothing by trading Santana, they simply add his "replacement". Wouldn't you rather roll the dice and hope that you get lucky? This is afterall almost all luck. By using your logic they'd have traded for Pedro Feliz instead of Liriano/Nathan/Boof. There are times when quantity is better. This is one of them imo.

First time I heard that train of thought and now I can kind of see your point. I was looking at it the whole time as them getting Hughes back to be Santana's replacement.